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glypht · Feb 24, 2007, 05:48 PM

Originally Posted by Eug

Time Machine isn't really a substitute for periodic direct backups of all the data

Why not? It is after all a complete backup of all the data, plus a history of the data, on a separate physical device.

Unless of course you're referring to an offsite backup, in which case I agree.

besson3c · Feb 24, 2007, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by glypht

Why not? It is after all a complete backup of all the data, plus a history of the data, on a separate physical device.

Unless of course you're referring to an offsite backup, in which case I agree.

We don't really know whether it only tracks changes or keeps actual snapshots of the files in different states, but I'm willing to bet it does the former. If I'm right, the TM will store data representing the changes in data, but will count on a separate "original" file to be present to apply these changes to during a restoration.

See the difference?

Chuckit · Feb 24, 2007, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

New iMacs, MBPs, and MBs most likely won't arrive before Santa Rosa ships. IOW they won't be here before April.

Yeah, that's what I've been thinking. The only things they could really upgrade are the video cards and hard disks. (Or, you know, they could release an iMac that uses a desktop chip. But I don't see that happening.)

Simon · Feb 25, 2007, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

(Or, you know, they could release an iMac that uses a desktop chip. But I don't see that happening.)

I've wondered about that myself. Apple must really have some serious thermal design concerns. Conroe in the iMac instead of Merom would instantly drop the production cost by ~ $200.

OTOH I'd like to see a Conroe mini tower with 4 DIMM slots, 2 drive bays, and 2 PCI slots. But that has been discussed enough already I guess.

Mithras · Feb 25, 2007, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

We don't really know whether it only tracks changes or keeps actual snapshots of the files in different states, but I'm willing to bet it does the former. If I'm right, the TM will store data representing the changes in data, but will count on a separate "original" file to be present to apply these changes to during a restoration.

See the difference?

We do know, and it doesn't. It keeps the most recent version of each file, along with hardlinks to unchanged files. Which means that if you have an enormous file that changed a tiny bit, TM has to copy the entire new file. Yes, that sucks, but it does offer the simplicity that you're worried about.

http://arstechnica.com/staff/fatbits...6/8/15/4995/p2

glypht · Feb 25, 2007, 11:03 AM

Right from the start, Time Machine in Mac OS X Leopard makes a complete backup of all the files on your system. That includes your system files, applications, accounts, preferences, music, photos, movies, documents — everything you keep on your Mac. As you make changes, Time Machine only backs up what changes, all the while maintaining a comprehensive layout of your system.

From Leopard Sneak Peek page. It's a complete backup, and it tracks changes.

Chuckit · Feb 25, 2007, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Simon

I've wondered about that myself. Apple must really have some serious thermal design concerns. Conroe in the iMac instead of Merom would instantly drop the production cost by ~ $200.

That could be offset by being able to use the same components across the board. Apple is buying Merom in enormous quantities. I find it hard to believe that Conroe is that much worse than the G5, which required liquid cooling and redefined the term "toaster Mac."

brokenjago · Feb 26, 2007, 01:51 AM

Define "Same Components" Are we talking chip, southbridge? Or what?

Simon · Feb 26, 2007, 04:41 AM

I'd say Chuck's implying they both use the same Merom CPU and 945PM/GM chipset. Using Conroe would mean using an additional CPU and chipset nowhere else to be found in Apple's line-up (the P965 chipset). It definitely reduces Apple's production costs if they use/buy fewer chipsets and CPU types.

brokenjago · Feb 27, 2007, 02:07 AM

That's true.

But by $200 per iMac? That's quite steep.

Simon · Feb 27, 2007, 04:53 AM

Originally Posted by brokenjago

But by $200 per iMac? That's quite steep.

Actually not at all. Look at what you pay Intel for these Core 2 CPUs (if you buy by the thousand):

Merom: T7600: 2.33 GHz: $637
Conroe: E6600: 2.4 GHz: $316
Difference: $321
-> Apple could go with a 2.67 GHz Conroe (E6700) and still save $107

Merom: T7400: 2.16 GHz: $423
Conroe: E6400 (this is actually an Allendale with 2MB L2): 2.13 GHz: $224
Difference: $199
-> Apple could go with a 2.4 GHz Conroe (E6600) and still save $107

But as Chuck said, in the end Apple probably isn't paying that much more since they also save money by using one chipset rather than two.

MasonMcD · Feb 27, 2007, 12:26 PM

Don't know if anyone's posted this before or not. New network preference pane:

http://homepage.mac.com/masonmcd/Network.png

Mithras · Feb 27, 2007, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by MasonMcD

Don't know if anyone's posted this before or not. New network preference pane:

http://homepage.mac.com/masonmcd/Network.png

Ick, I don't like it. The busy interface and 'Advanced...' button just reeks of Windows to me.

G0Ducks · Feb 27, 2007, 01:52 PM

Well, I will be the first to say it... with the most recent screens and reports at thinksecret.com, I am highly doubtful that a new interface is going to appear with Leopard. Here's one for the nay-sayers...

R

MasonMcD · Feb 27, 2007, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by G0Ducks

Well, I will be the first to say it... with the most recent screens and reports at thinksecret.com, I am highly doubtful that a new interface is going to appear with Leopard. Here's one for the nay-sayers...

R

I'm not so sure about no new interface. Take a look at the Spaces preference pane, and how the Spaces windows are represented:

http://homepage.mac.com/masonmcd/Spaces.png

silverboy31 · Feb 28, 2007, 12:16 AM

First of all that build is well over a month old(jan 17). i'm still waiting for a new seed and hoping for some knid of refinements

Chuckit · Feb 28, 2007, 01:52 AM

Originally Posted by MasonMcD

I'm not so sure about no new interface. Take a look at the Spaces preference pane, and how the Spaces windows are represented:

http://homepage.mac.com/masonmcd/Spaces.png

How on earth does that indicate a new interface to you? It looks like four empty blue desktops floating on the black spaces background.

MasonMcD · 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

How on earth does that indicate a new interface to you? It looks like four empty blue desktops floating on the black spaces background.

Maybe you can't see it, but the spaces windows are blue-grey, and spaces window number 1 is illuminated from behind sort of as the Apple logo is in the MacWorld San Francisco tease poster:

http://cache.gizmodo.com/assets/reso.../01/tease1.jpg

New color scheme, illuminated from behind when selected. Maybe that doesn't say anything to you. Dunno.

monkeybrain · Feb 28, 2007, 10:16 AM

It could show they're using more black in the interface, but I think we can guarantee that (Quicklook, Timemachine).

One thought I had when I saw that screenshot though, about shortcut keys. They have command-number as each space; what about the use of this shortcut in Safari? And it raises the question, does anyone else think we're running out of keys here? I've thought for a while they should add separate, dedicated and labelled, buttons for Exposé and Dashboard. I think newbies won't use Exposé because they don't know it's there, could be the same with Spaces.

MasonMcD · Feb 28, 2007, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by monkeybrain

It could show they're using more black in the interface, but I think we can guarantee that (Quicklook, Timemachine).

One thought I had when I saw that screenshot though, about shortcut keys. They have command-number as each space; what about the use of this shortcut in Safari? And it raises the question, does anyone else think we're running out of keys here? I've thought for a while they should add separate, dedicated and labelled, buttons for Exposé and Dashboard. I think newbies won't use Exposé because they don't know it's there, could be the same with Spaces.

The modifier keys can be changed to ctrl/number or opt/number, or removed entirely.

I think if you're the type of person who could benefit from Spaces, you wouldn't have much trouble setting up the shortcut.

Chuckit · Feb 28, 2007, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by monkeybrain

One thought I had when I saw that screenshot though, about shortcut keys. They have command-number as each space; what about the use of this shortcut in Safari?

They'll change it.

Originally Posted by monkeybrain

And it raises the question, does anyone else think we're running out of keys here? I've thought for a while they should add separate, dedicated and labelled, buttons for Exposé and Dashboard. I think newbies won't use Exposé because they don't know it's there, could be the same with Spaces.

Er…they can't add keys to your keyboard through a software patch.

Philip J. Fry · Feb 28, 2007, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by G0Ducks

Well, I will be the first to say it... with the most recent screens and reports at thinksecret.com, I am highly doubtful that a new interface is going to appear with Leopard. Here's one for the nay-sayers...

R

I really hope you don't believe the hype about Leopard being released end of next month. Apple has a few tricks up their sleeve, I'm sure.

mindwaves · Feb 28, 2007, 12:19 PM

I am beginning to think that there are no "Top Secret" features....

Gee4orce · Feb 28, 2007, 12:29 PM

Of course there are Top Secret features.

Unfortunately, they are so secret that nobody will ever find out what they are, even when we are running Leopard ourselves )

TETENAL · Feb 28, 2007, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by mindwaves

I am beginning to think that there are no "Top Secret" features....

You think Jobs is a liar? He explicitly said there are Top Secret features that can not yet be revealed.

Mithras · Feb 28, 2007, 01:29 PM

What was the delay between OS X DP3 and the Public Beta?

G0Ducks · Feb 28, 2007, 01:51 PM

OK, they may be developing the new theme whilst they are developing the new OS... However, this would imply that apple has some sort of themeing software of their own.
If not, then why would they go through the trouble of redesigning the interface for the current versions of Leopard's control panels? If I were a huge developer like apple, I would want to make sure that it all looked good with said new theme.

Personally, all of this sneaking about is absolutely ridiculous... I feel like Weird Al of VHF's game show and I'm being forced to choose "Whats in the box!!!"

Market share via secrets = lame.

R

¢

Originally Posted by Philip J. Fry

I really hope you don't believe the hype about Leopard being released end of next month. Apple has a few tricks up their sleeve, I'm sure.

Mithras · Feb 28, 2007, 02:11 PM

Originally Posted by Mithras

What was the delay between OS X DP3 and the Public Beta?

Answering my own question: About 8 months. Well, that's something of an argument against the "radical UI facelift" hypothesis, though there was much more than the GUI that changed between DP3 and the PB.

Chuckit · Feb 28, 2007, 02:19 PM

Originally Posted by G0Ducks

OK, they may be developing the new theme whilst they are developing the new OS... However, this would imply that apple has some sort of themeing software of their own.

Apple recently applied for a patent on some kind of theming software, so I'd say the chances of that are good.

Feynman · Feb 28, 2007, 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Apple recently applied for a patent on some kind of theming software, so I'd say the chances of that are good.

Is this the patent in which you speak: United States Patent: 7184056

lookmark · Feb 28, 2007, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mithras

Answering my own question: About 8 months. Well, that's something of an argument against the "radical UI facelift" hypothesis, though there was much more than the GUI that changed between DP3 and the PB.

I think it's fair to assume that a new UI in Leopard would be more a CoreAnimation-powered "refreshing" than a really radical change, and it will be less disruptive than the OS 9 --> OS X transition. If there *are* elements that are really radical and future-looking (iSight-savvy gestural controls, advanced voice recognition) it's safe to assume that they will be supplemental and will not replace the classic WIMP model.

Also, as you mention, it's worth keeping in mind that developers at that time had to Carbonize or completely rewrite their apps, as well as rework their interface elements. That alone was a huge amount of work (especially for a basically unfinished and continually changing OS).

Kate · Feb 28, 2007, 05:34 PM

I suspect the same. Nothing top secret besides some backfireing expectations that will hurt momentum after the bubble goes "popp".

I get a feeling that even the spaghetti-code Finder will essentially still be the same.

That late in the developmental process there should have been the odd indication here and there, where those top secret features must tie in. Nope so far I can see. So something with no ties to anything? Whatever this is supposed to be then.....

Chuckit · Feb 28, 2007, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by Feynman

Is this the patent in which you speak: United States Patent: 7184056

Nope.

lookmark · Feb 28, 2007, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by Kate

That late in the developmental process there should have been the odd indication here and there, where those top secret features must tie in. Nope so far I can see. So something with no ties to anything? Whatever this is supposed to be then.....

There's a number of indications here and there. e.g. CoreUI, a new and private framework that apps in Leopard now use to draw their resources.

However, the most convincing reason to expect a refreshed UI can be expressed in a single word: Vista. OS X does not exist in a vacuum, and Apple has had well over two years now to prepare for Vista, and every reason to keep their work absolutely secret from the Vista design team (for all-too-obvious reasons).

Kate · Feb 28, 2007, 06:57 PM

Well if the GUI will receive a nice treat thats fine, resolution independence and core animated this and that. And the competing copycats will too soon find out as well what's in the bag, sure.
But does a new GUI ,well done and brilliantly done and everything, fill the gap when major things (more than one!?) were announced, but too secret to be mentioned?

I'm in doubt here. Speculation and expectation feed too big a bubble as of now for my feelings.

Real big things would and must have underpinnings in terms of frameworks, core extensions, kernel alterations and suchlike. And for these time is running out I guess. If not already too late in the game.
Maybe it's just new GUI-candy, a welcome change, but well, small money compared to the big boogie that had been hinted at, not?

lookmark · Feb 28, 2007, 07:30 PM

Well, it's all in the eye of the beholder. IME UI changes are the thing that many Mac users are the most excited about. After all, it's the reason why many of us use the Mac at all.

I think Leopard UI changes will be considerably more than, say, a new theme, some new desktop pictures, and a few new animated effects (i.e. eye candy). There'll be candy, of course, but there will also be a real, considerable, carefully thought-out refresh of the UI across the board. There will be some seriously cool stuff.

For Apple, this is their chance to show how they can do an OS better than Vista. The opportunity won't come again for the next two or so years.

Kevin · Mar 1, 2007, 07:59 AM

I just hope apple doesn't have 5 different themes going on the OS at once like it has been.

That's a mess

kilechki · Mar 1, 2007, 11:31 AM

So if leopard was to be shipped late march, we should see a GM in the very next days, isn'it? This reminds me of 10.0 with all the "they can't sell this thing in this state" - and they did, eventually.

I would be surprised indeed to see 10.5 ship in its actual form. Having seen the Quick Look preview on youtube, it seems like apple wants either to leave the Finder untouched with a few new cosmetic features, or to drop a new piece of soft at the last minute with all those features being more like placeholders for code to come.
Is it really possible, however? Sounds a bit tricky for what it's worth.

lookmark · Mar 1, 2007, 03:18 PM

It's incredibly unlikely that Leopard is going to ship in March. I'd wager we'll see a special event and public demo on March 24th though, along with a announced release date in May or June.

10.0 was a pretty different story; bringing NeXTStep up to speed, matching OS 9 features, and making the Carbon APIs was a vast project, and huge parts of the OS remained unfinished. With Tiger, OS X's APIs were at last frozen. They've had a very solid platform on which to build new things for a few years now, at least.

onlyone-jc · Mar 1, 2007, 03:58 PM

Link: NAB 2007

Maybe we'll see Leopard here?

There's a very good possibility, in my opinion. Maybe with a May shipping date?

onlyone-jc.

lookmark · 08:05 PM

Nah, NAB is for FCP w/ CoreAnimation goodness, plus possibly some new Pro Macs.

For Leopard (unveiling/demo, not release): [very close to] March 24, the 6th anniversary of OS X. Bet on it.

cybergoober · Mar 2, 2007, 10:28 PM

Read elsewhere that build 9a377a has been seeded to developers.

kilechki · Mar 5, 2007, 06:22 AM

ZFS is told not to be managed any more in this last build (temporarily?)

Most changes are supposed to be focused on Spotlight.

Big Mac · Mar 5, 2007, 08:13 AM

What is with Apple's friggin fascination with caps lock for category names? First iTunes and now Spotlight? I hope this problem is as easily hacked away as in iTunes.

Simon · Mar 5, 2007, 08:53 AM

I don't see the problem as long as they use it exclusively for headings.

kick52 · Mar 5, 2007, 09:42 AM

imo, it looks realy ugly

SS3 GokouX · Mar 5, 2007, 01:33 PM

Caps is awful. What's wrong with Lucida Grande Bold? Nothing I tell you. Other than that, Spotlight looks nice.

besson3c · Mar 5, 2007, 01:35 PM

I wish ThinkSecret's reviews were more technical and less "this button is now over here", "there is now a new screen saver", and other boring crap.

Thinine · Mar 5, 2007, 03:52 PM

Well, the thing is, they aren't reviews. They're just screens of things they found interesting, with captions pointing out what that is.

lpkmckenna · Mar 5, 2007, 11:24 PM

Ok, that new Spotlight window looks completely pointless. It's basically a Finder window in list-view with Saved Searches in the Sidebar. Remind me again why Spotlight has its own windows apart from the Finder?

I'm expecting a public demo of Leopard at the end of March, but not immediately available at that time. Apple will want the buzz to filter thru the press.

New appearance? Count on it. I don't expect earth-shattering changes (other than some clever UI animations), but some elements will vanish: Goodbye to brushed-metal, blue-gel scrollers, and streetlight-colored window controls.