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Looks like Steve spayed their kitties
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The Godfather
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Jun 7, 2010, 11:10 PM
 
1. No OSX developer award from Apple. Ars had to pick up the slack.
2. No preview of 10.7. It's way overdue as 10.6 is very mature.
3. No TV campaign to replace Hogman+Long.

Maybe someone actually in WWDC can chime in and say that the cats are not emaciated.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jun 8, 2010, 03:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Godfather View Post
1. No OSX developer award from Apple. Ars had to pick up the slack.
2. No preview of 10.7. It's way overdue as 10.6 is very mature.
3. No TV campaign to replace Hogman+Long.

Maybe someone actually in WWDC can chime in and say that the cats are not emaciated.
1. Oh the humanity.
2. Way overdue? Are you kidding?
3. Ya who cares about all the free hype and advertising for the new iPhones. The real priorities are who will replace the Mac ads.

Bonus:
     
Big Mac
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Jun 8, 2010, 03:23 AM
 
Do we really need a new thread for this discussion?

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 8, 2010, 03:45 AM
 
a) No, we don't.

b) I'm happier with the status quo in Mac computing than I have been in years. To the point where I've almost completely stopped thinking about the computer and OS at all.

Fix a couple bugs in 10.6 and leave it well alone, I say.
     
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Jun 8, 2010, 04:14 AM
 
^ Congrats on your 15,000th
     
Big Mac
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Jun 8, 2010, 04:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
b) I'm happier with the status quo in Mac computing than I have been in years. To the point where I've almost completely stopped thinking about the computer and OS at all.

Fix a couple bugs in 10.6 and leave it well alone, I say.
And I agree with you, theoretically. Mac OS X is quite fully developed and very mature - no question. But there's always more room for improvement, is there not? Microsoft isn't going to stand still. Linux won't stand still. There are some aspects of Windows that are superior to OS X. For example, OS library code location randomization is more thorough in Windows 7 than Snow Leopard. Apple can't afford just to say OS X is "good enough" and that there's no need to take development seriously. If Apple's going to give up the good fight just now when the Mac is making major strides in market share and general acceptance, then part of me says we just should have gone from the classic Mac OS to Intel "Macs" running Windows XP.

Secondly, another problem with an OS that isn't actively developed is that it hampers growth of and enthusiasm for the platform. Developers don't work as hard to grow the software base, users don't feel as positive about such a platform that is perceived as a dead end. A classic example I can give is the waning days of the classic Mac OS. System 7 came out in 1991, and at the time that it came out it was cutting edge. Move forward to Mac OS 8, the Mac OS was showing its age but at least OS 8 had some creative improvements, and it still felt like the platform had life in it. Mac OS 9, though, was clearly a dead end, aged and tired. Third party support was drying up fast. Those of us in the know couldn't wait to get to Rhapsody/Mac OS X. Now granted, OS 9 felt that way because it was lacking in the modern OS technologies that users were clamoring for; Snow Leopard and it's hoped for successor(s) won't have that issue. Nonetheless, I think it's vitally important for an OS to be actively developed and improved, no matter how mature it seems at any given juncture.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 8, 2010 at 04:38 AM. )

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OreoCookie
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Jun 8, 2010, 06:47 AM
 
@Big Mac
I think you're exaggerating a fair bit when you're saying that 10.7 isn't actively developed. Of course, it is. Mac users have been spoilt by Apple's rapid pace in recent years, it took MS 5 years to complete Windows Vista. And that's after a lot of interesting features have been axed (WinFS, for instance).

You're right that I also find Apple's sole focus on iOS a bit unnerving and I share your disappointment of the lack of mention of OS X, but I still think OS X is developed quite actively. After all, there is a lot of cross fertilization from OS X to iOS and back. That's why I think Apple will focus much more on security features in the next release.
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residentEvil
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Jun 8, 2010, 08:09 AM
 
as with most software R&D; i'm sure they are on to something else as well. not just 10.x or iOS x. something all together new.
     
turtle777
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Jun 8, 2010, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Fix a couple bugs in 10.6 and leave it well alone, I say.
They still need to fix the f*cking Finder.

For Pete's sake's, why can't Apple divert their creative genius in that direction for a moment

-t
     
OreoCookie
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Jun 8, 2010, 10:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by residentEvil View Post
as with most software R&D; i'm sure they are on to something else as well. not just 10.x or iOS x. something all together new.
Like what?
The biggest revolution so far is happening in the way we interact with the computer, i. e. the GUI. In a way, it doesn't matter which (modern) OS the GUI runs on. (Obviously I'm thinking from the perspective of the end user who doesn't think in terms of APIs and stuff, but only what you can do and how it feels.)

The biggest challenges are IMO security and file storage (combination of cloud and local storage, etc.).
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turtle777
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Jun 8, 2010, 10:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The biggest challenges are IMO security and file storage (combination of cloud and local storage, etc.).
Yeah, the cloud storage comes on top of the issue I mentioned above.

Right now, even the local file storage is a pain (because of the Finder), how can you expect the combination of local and cloud to work w/o redesigning the whole Finder paradigm.

-t
     
residentEvil
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Jun 8, 2010, 10:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Like what?
The biggest revolution so far is happening in the way we interact with the computer, i. e. the GUI. In a way, it doesn't matter which (modern) OS the GUI runs on. (Obviously I'm thinking from the perspective of the end user who doesn't think in terms of APIs and stuff, but only what you can do and how it feels.)

The biggest challenges are IMO security and file storage (combination of cloud and local storage, etc.).
does nike stop R&D on a shoe cause the air jordan sold fine?

does coke stop R&D on a drink cause sprite sells fine?

does apple stop R&D on desktop OS cause their mobile OS sells fine?

all companies are continuing onto something "new" all the time. that is how we/they/all of us advance. otherwise, we would still be pounding coconuts with rocks so we had something to eat
     
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Jun 8, 2010, 10:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
@Big Mac
I think you're exaggerating a fair bit when you're saying that 10.7 isn't actively developed. Of course, it is. Mac users have been spoilt by Apple's rapid pace in recent years, it took MS 5 years to complete Windows Vista. And that's after a lot of interesting features have been axed (WinFS, for instance).

You're right that I also find Apple's sole focus on iOS a bit unnerving and I share your disappointment of the lack of mention of OS X, but I still think OS X is developed quite actively. After all, there is a lot of cross fertilization from OS X to iOS and back. That's why I think Apple will focus much more on security features in the next release.
I didn't mean to imply that 10.7 is not being actively developed. I assume it is. But if that's true, it would have been nice to see SJ throw a bone to us and briefly discuss something interesting about 10.7. I get that WWDC is increasingly an iPlatforms show, but we could have been told something about 10.7. Not letting any Mac announcement share the show just makes the Mac Faithful murmur in this fashion.

Btw, the iOS is not the completely sole focus of WWDC. There are Mac OS X sessions. But we could have been thrown a bone in the Keynote.

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analogue SPRINKLES
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Jun 8, 2010, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
They still need to fix the f*cking Finder.
-t
Honestly, I think they need to get RID of the finder AND the whole Window/desktop metaphor. It is to damn hard to use and dated. I'm thinking there will be a delay for 10.7 in order for them to re-think things.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 8, 2010, 01:30 PM
 
That's what they're doing with the iOS.
     
turtle777
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Jun 8, 2010, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Honestly, I think they need to get RID of the finder AND the whole Window/desktop metaphor. It is to damn hard to use and dated. I'm thinking there will be a delay for 10.7 in order for them to re-think things.
Well, whatever they do, they better make it better, not worse.

There are still people that deal with tons of documents.

I scan ALL my bills and invoices and archive them electronically.
Apps like Leap show where things could be headed.

We definitely need better support for metatags.

-t
     
turtle777
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Jun 8, 2010, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
That's what they're doing with the iOS.
Hardly.

iOS is supposed to deal with people that don't create and track documents.

-t
     
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Jun 8, 2010, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
That's what they're doing with the iOS.
I sure as h*ll don't want the Mac to become a curated platform like iOS. If they want to add touchscreens to iMacs and MacBooks and add some of the design elements from iOS to the Mac OS, that's fine, but don't turn the Mac into a curated platform.

Besides, I posted this in the other thread, and I'm going to post it again. Here, right from Steve Jobs' mouth, er, e-mail, is reassurance that the Mac is still being looked after:

Not to worry.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 8, 2010, 02:53 PM
 
Which is an email reply that could certainly have been faked with no trouble.

The problem is, actions speak louder than words. We're not seeing a lot of actions on Apple's part that give us confidence that Apple still has a long term, full commitment to the Mac, now that the iPlatforms are dominating so much of its attention. SJ could have at least paid some lip service to 10.7. He could have told us that Snow Leopard is the most powerful OS on the market and will be for a long time to come but that Apple is still hard at work on its successors. Even if that were a total lie, it would be a nice lie to tell the faithful.

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Jun 8, 2010, 02:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Which is an email reply that could certainly have been faked with no trouble.
Wouldn't be too hard to ask the site to post the full headers for the e-mail.

The "freedom from porn" e-mail exchange could have been faked, too. But Jobs owned up to it at D8.
     
bstone
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Jun 8, 2010, 05:16 PM
 
Is Apple still developing OS 9?
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 8, 2010, 06:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Hardly.

iOS is supposed to deal with people that don't create and track documents.
iOS is initially supposed to deal with people that aren't more than casual content creators.

They will (have to) include some form of document management once they figure out how to do it.

This thing will scale - not indefinitely, but take a look at iMovie on the iPhone.
YouTube - iMovie comes to the iPhone

The potential for this stuff for content creation is great - but adapting an OS conceptualized for menu/window/cursor-based operation is not going to work.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 8, 2010, 06:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
Is Apple still developing OS 9?
Sure.

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turtle777
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Jun 8, 2010, 08:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
iOS is initially supposed to deal with people that aren't more than casual content creators.

They will (have to) include some form of document management once they figure out how to do it.
Really, I don't care what they do with iOS.

I'm not gonna scan my documents on my iPhone.

I need OS X to help me do this, and do it better than it does today.

-t
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 9, 2010, 01:40 AM
 
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
     
CharlesS
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Jun 9, 2010, 01:58 AM
 
It is disturbing how little attention OS X has gotten this year. Other than the minor hardware bump, what has Apple released on the Mac side this year? iWork 2010? iLife 2010? Only on iOS. Is there anything at all from Apple coming out for the Mac besides minor maintenance updates? Are there even rumors?

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Spheric Harlot
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Jun 9, 2010, 02:02 AM
 
The i5/7 'Books weren't "minor", but you have a point.
     
CharlesS
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Jun 9, 2010, 02:08 AM
 
They weren't really anything unexpected, though, were they? They just brought the processor up to date. And they didn't even do that on the 13" model. The battery life is nice, I guess, if it's legit.

On the software side, the only thing they seem to have done all year that I can recall is Safari 5 (which is also an integral component of the iOS interface) and Xcode 4 (which is vital for developing iOS apps).

It's frustrating.

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turtle777
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Jun 9, 2010, 02:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I find your lack of faith disturbing.
Seriously ?

You think that one day, I will hook up my scanner to an iPad, and then let the iOS automagically file my documents, including setting smart MetaTags ?

I find your faith unbelievable.

-t
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 9, 2010, 02:16 AM
 
We need to keep a public list of who does Star Wars, and who doesn't.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 9, 2010, 02:26 AM
 
Joking aside, there's two things that can happen:

either complex production processes will remain exclusive to an increasingly side-lined mouse-based OS (much like many specialized network services are performed on command-line interfaces today), or

the iOSen will take over much of that, too, as their functionality grows.

Remember how refreshing and at the same time frustrating the clean slate of the new OS X was, before vital functionality was re-implemented over the next five years.

This is bigger.

It will take time.

I don't think anybody - including Apple - really knows how well it will scale. But it is very obviously the Next Really Big Thing, and they're running with it.
     
Phileas
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Jun 9, 2010, 06:42 AM
 
In the long run, the mouse is dead. It's dead because a mouse based OS puts a barrier between the user and the desired result, an extra layer of complexity.

I have no idea what OS we'll all be using in 20 years from now but I am certain that our kids will look at mice as charming anachronisms.
     
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Jun 9, 2010, 08:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I didn't mean to imply that 10.7 is not being actively developed. I assume it is. But if that's true, it would have been nice to see SJ throw a bone to us and briefly discuss something interesting about 10.7. I get that WWDC is increasingly an iPlatforms show, but we could have been told something about 10.7. Not letting any Mac announcement share the show just makes the Mac Faithful murmur in this fashion.
Oh, yes, I agree with that.
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Btw, the iOS is not the completely sole focus of WWDC. There are Mac OS X sessions. But we could have been thrown a bone in the Keynote.
Yes, but everybody knows that this year's WWDC is all about the i(Phone) OS.
Perhaps it would be better to make two WWDCs: one for the iOS and one for OS X?
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Yeah, the cloud storage comes on top of the issue I mentioned above.

Right now, even the local file storage is a pain (because of the Finder), how can you expect the combination of local and cloud to work w/o redesigning the whole Finder paradigm.
Ever since 10.4, I found the Finder quite joyous to use. I've tried Path Finder a few times, but I've always liked the simplicity of OS X' Finder. Although, I do use the Terminal quite a bit (for managing git repositories, mass renaming and such).

However, there are features that are basically impractical right now: I rarely use searches (my files are ordered in a very structured manner from the get go, so I find them more quickly navigating to wherever they are) and search folders are useless to me.

I think the problem of the Finder is that it adheres to a concept that comes from an era where we had a few hundred or a few thousand files and not hundreds of thousands of files. It's not a fault of Apple's implementation of the Finder -- which I like as it is. Certainly, there is room for improvement (there always is), but I have never seen the point of people exclaiming FFTF.
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- - e r i k - -
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Jun 9, 2010, 10:37 AM
 
Seriously. Who gives a shit? When was the last time ANYTHING happened in OS space? Win7? Give me a break.

The PC revolution is over. All that is left is slow pondering evolution.

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analogue SPRINKLES
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Jun 9, 2010, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Seriously. Who gives a shit? When was the last time ANYTHING happened in OS space? Win7? Give me a break.

The PC revolution is over. All that is left is slow pondering evolution.
It's true, it's all over with. Since the iPhone came out in 2007 most of my interest moved towards it and since the iPad was announced I just look at my MBP as if it is a rotary dial phone.

OS's dont' matter like they used to, it is now about the APP using the hardware so it looks like they were made for one another.

One second my iPad looks like it was made for reading books, the next it is a scrabble board or a word processor. Each time you are very into the moment and not worrying about window management, quitting apps for RAM etc. You just do what you need to do and the OS is just the interface which does what you tell it to without you even knowing it.

Windows 8 can add all the expose effects, themes and new and improved Start Menu. It won't be a selling point when people are used to working in their themed Firefox/Chrome/ all day with cloud storage.

The Mac is either going to slowly die like the hard drive iPods or it will morph into something more like the iPad over the next few years.

Unless 10.7 brings a whole new interface that works with touch it will be hard to get excited about it for me. All the ZDF or whatever storage and metal window styles are not gonna sell computers anymore to anyone but the hard core geeks.

The desktop/laptop's days are done with over the next 5 years. It is all about mass cloud storage which is accessible from anywhere from your iPad/iPhone devices.

Deny it or freak out if you like but it's the sad or happy fact.

Oh and this might be a strong example but it very close to the average home user I deal with that asks me for help. Closing windows, monitor power vs. computer power are incomprehensible as is moving files from one folder to another. This is exactly why the desktop OS needs to die as it requires too much babysitting to get stuff done.
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analogue SPRINKLES
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Jun 9, 2010, 04:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Well, whatever they do, they better make it better, not worse.

There are still people that deal with tons of documents.
-t
So what. Right now I see 90% of people find the file they want in the open/save boxes within the app itself. They open word, they go to the recent menu or they choose open and find their file.

I do not often see people digging around in the finder looking.

The other option is Spotlight which will find anything better than manually looking for it.

The open save boxes currently do not let you move/rename files but if they added the iOS checkbox and "move" command along with "Save image" when in another app and throws it right into iPhoto I would never need the finder again.
     
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Jun 9, 2010, 04:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
The Mac is either going to slowly die like the hard drive iPods or it will morph into something more like the iPad over the next few years.

The desktop/laptop's days are done with over the next 5 years. It is all about mass cloud storage which is accessible from anywhere from your iPad/iPhone devices.

Deny it or freak out if you like but it's the sad or happy fact.
Sorry, wrong.
Unless you figure out how to run ProTools on an iPad, of course.
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turtle777
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Jun 9, 2010, 04:42 PM
 
I don't know who came up with the analogy, but I thought it was accurate:

Macs (or PCs) are like trucks, the next generation iPads & Co. are like passenger cars.

Most people won't need a truck, and will do fine with smaller, leaner devices.
But there will always be people that need to do more heavy lifting, and for that, we still need Macs with a good OS.

-t
     
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Jun 9, 2010, 04:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Sorry, wrong.
Unless you figure out how to run ProTools on an iPad, of course.
Sorry but I didn't say a "Mac morphing into an iPad" would mean it was still just an iPad like we have today. That doesn't make much sense does it?

Take the DVD reader, the spinning hard drive and the keyboard away from your MBP and what you got? A screen with a strong CPU, VIdeo Card and lots of plugs.

The MBA started it with removing the DVD and remote OS installs. I hope my next MBP replaces the DVD drive with.... anything.

Lots of people are getting small SSD drives instead of hard drives. Even more people use cloud storage or wireless (time machine) storage so not to need everything on massive drives. Fast wireless networking will replace USB or will a single cable from that light peek. Even camera's transfer over Wifi these days easily, fast and cheap.

So say in a year or 2 apple releases a 15" iPad with the CPU and video card of a MBP but with a touch interface, a wireless keyboard and trackpad for those times you need it. Sounds like a sale to me. Wait why we need strong CPU's and video cards for what most of us use these devices for anyway? I can do 90% of my casual days work on my iPad today.

I'm only going on my computer to do photoshop web design and programming but I'm hoping a juiced up iPad will replace that soon enough too.

Yes there will be MBP's and iMac's for a while longer as they are not going to make Avatar on an iPad 15". That doesn't mean the desktop PC's aren't going to become a niche.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Jun 9, 2010, 04:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Sorry, wrong.
Unless you figure out how to run ProTools on an iPad, of course.
The hardware is obviously scalable. The point of the iPad is that the INTERFACE will supplant what you're using now.

YouTube - iPad AC-7 Pro new v1.01 update Demo

The controller stuff already works, and nailing a multi-touch display on top of an i7 MacBook Pro (or a future 12-core mobile processor, for that matter) is comparatively trivial. Heck, forget mobile, have a tower under the desk and replace the whole console with a 50" multi-touch display that you can switch from mixer to arrangement view

The big problem is completely redesigning the interface for mouse-less operation.

The iOS isn't there yet, not by a long, long shot.

The real challenge is in maintaining its straightforward simplicity while re-adding the required complexity, such as driver installation, etc.
     
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Jun 9, 2010, 04:54 PM
 
I don't think the iPlatforms or their competitors will ever be able to replace general-purpose PCs for those who need to do regular content creation activities. They're just not geared to those types of activities.

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Jun 9, 2010, 04:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Take the DVD reader, the spinning hard drive and the keyboard away from your MBP and what you got?
Three Mac Pros and a useless MBP.

I concede that your point is valid for the average punter. But desktops ain't going to go away as quick as you think they are. Check the system specs (particularly the storage requirements) on software that musicians use. No, that's not a typo they did there.
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I don't know who came up with the analogy, but I thought it was accurate:

Macs (or PCs) are like trucks, the next generation iPads & Co. are like passenger cars.

Most people won't need a truck, and will do fine with smaller, leaner devices.
But there will always be people that need to do more heavy lifting, and for that, we still need Macs with a good OS.

-t
Jobs said it at D8, but I don't know who originated it. But I couldn't agree more with you (and him). The desktop computer, and the laptop computer by extension, is declining. There will always be room for them in certain niches (I sure can't imagine programming effectively on an iPad, for one), but fewer and fewer people will buy them as general-purpose machines when they already have a smartphone and a do-everything internet-connected tablet.

We're not there yet. Apple's cloud story is pitiful, and Google's end-user experience is still lacking (and Microsoft is years behind both of them). But it'll happen sooner rather than later -- I'd wager by the end of this decade.
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analogue SPRINKLES
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I don't know who came up with the analogy, but I thought it was accurate:

Macs (or PCs) are like trucks, the next generation iPads & Co. are like passenger cars.

-t
Steve Jobs said that a week ago at D8.

But yes, he is right. Currently all of my friends in the past 4 years have all bought the lowest end computer from apple because even that is 10x more than they need.

Even myself as a full time designer can easily work on my low end MBP and get the job done fast. Heck I could honestly do most of it on a G5 no prob.

I dont' know ANYBODY ever who filled a PCI card in their MacPro, used the Express card on their MBP or even sadder watch more than 1 or 2 DVD's on their laptop a year. I'm one of those people as well.

Yes Lucas Arts will but lots of MacPro's and cram it with RAM and video cards and need every drop of power they can get. That's 100 sales for apple right there. To bad the 1,000000 iPads Apple sold to everyone else in the world the same week kills that buzz.

Even some people around here get souped up i7 iMac's and plug in their firewire peripherals for the most speed available then use it to rip and encode a DVD while they go off for 30 minutes to casually have lunch. If they did the same thing with an i5 chip and USB 2 it would take 7 minutes longer but it would make no difference as they are on no deadlines or rush to begin with. It would make sense in a production house but not to 90% of the people who buy it in the first place.

The only time I actually see people upgrade their machines is more RAM years down the road. The reason being the machine is so expensive it is cheaper to help extend its life as long as you can.

How about instead Apps are only created with the average known hardware out there. At $500 for an iPad replacing it 3 years after the fact when the new features will no longer come to your device you sell it for anything and get a new one. Even that isn't needed as it will still work just fine. I still know a ton of people on the first iPhone who love it to death but don't need advanced features but it still is better than a dumbphone.

All kinds of apps from Autocad to 3D apps will move from mouse/window/GUI interfaces into something with a more gesture based interface.

AT WORST CASE I could easily see the Mac Mini evolving into a home server and high end iPads acting more like powerful displays to present the information and a means to interact with it.

This is very much like I already have setup today in my house. A headless MacMini in the cabinet with 3 external hard drives attached to it acting as NAS, Time Machine, music sever, home automation, printer server. It also automatically downloads weekly TV shows and places them on the external drives.

I think use a $3 program called AirVideo to watch all these files in ANY format which is converted on the fly to any iDevice when I have net access. Same goes for all my music. This App I can use on 5 devices in my house and even has an iPad version.

Even my PS3 finds my Mini server and plays all the same videos on my 50" TV.

All this cost me less than most of the iMacs.

Mini $600
iPad $500
iPhone $200
3 TB storage $200
PS3 $300

Total $1900

Screw getting an iMac to do much of the same thing but have that DVD drive and more CPU power I know what to do with and having it all stuck on my desk.
     
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
The hardware is obviously scalable. The point of the iPad is that the INTERFACE will supplant what you're using now.
I don't believe so...

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
The controller stuff already works, and nailing a multi-touch display on top of an i7 MacBook Pro (or a future 12-core mobile processor, for that matter) is comparatively trivial. Heck, forget mobile, have a tower under the desk and replace the whole console with a 50" multi-touch display that you can switch from mixer to arrangement view
That's going to get awful wearing on the arms - way too much physical movement required to operate at a "amount of stuff on screen" resolution similar to today's high end monitors. I mean, is a 50" touch screen interface with icons/objects large enough for stubby fingers really going to compete with a 30" WIMP where all the icons/objects are tiny? Are you really going to want to reach over 20-plus-inches to reach that icon/object you can currently get to with a flick of the mouse?

(I never use the mixer, BTW - I'm strictly outside the box. But if I was ITB I'd go Euphonix - now that's a proper digital interface!)

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
The real challenge is in maintaining its straightforward simplicity while re-adding the required complexity, such as driver installation, etc.
That's where I think it fails. Simplicity is good for items which are simple - email, web, etc.. I simply can't see a touch interface scaling up to a full blown pro production.
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Three Mac Pros and a useless MBP.

I concede that your point is valid for the average punter. But desktops ain't going to go away as quick as you think they are. Check the system specs (particularly the storage requirements) on software that musicians use. No, that's not a typo they did there.
The point about the iPad is the software, not the hardware.

That's the revolution.

VSL requires a G4 processor (G5 recommended) and 1 GB RAM. That's trivial. Apple could build an iPad functionally superior to that by the end of the year for not much money. They probably won't, yet, because the software isn't nearly at the point where this would be required.

750GB of storage? So what? This stuff is easy.

It's making the interface scale to deal with studio requirements that's the hard part.
     
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
It's true, it's all over with. Since the iPhone came out in 2007 most of my interest moved towards it and since the iPad was announced I just look at my MBP as if it is a rotary dial phone.
Then you're computing needs and desires are more simplistic and less demanding than I would have thought. I like the iPlatforms. I haven't used an iPad yet but I'm sure they're really cool for what they are. But I have no expectations that they're going to replace general PCs. Sure, a person who is a light and occasional laptop user who doesn't do much on the laptop other than use the web would probably be well served by an iPad. They can replace laptops and netbooks for those with limited computing needs, although they can't yet replace general computers completely, as we know (and as I point out below).

One second my iPad looks like it was made for reading books, the next it is a scrabble board or a word processor. Each time you are very into the moment
So you like single tasking environments? I have a 1984 Mac that you'll be very happy with.

Windows 8 can add all the expose effects, themes and new and improved Start Menu. It won't be a selling point when people are used to working in their themed Firefox/Chrome/ all day with cloud storage.
Sure, the Internet has changed computing dramatically, but just because we're in our browsers much of the time and relying on the cloud for things like email and social networking doesn't mean that everything in computing can or should be done through the Internet.

The Mac is either going to slowly die like the hard drive iPods or it will morph into something more like the iPad over the next few years. Unless 10.7 brings a whole new interface that works with touch it will be hard to get excited about it for me. All the ZDF or whatever storage and metal window styles are not gonna sell computers anymore to anyone but the hard core geeks.
Then let the plebs have their computing experiences completely neutered, sheltered and controlled. Do I want to have my computing experience controlled and micro-managed all the time? No. Do I want to be limited only to the software Apple or some other corporate player wants me to have access to? No. Do I want to store private information in the cloud and trust that app developers and Apple will safeguard my data? No. (See that photo upload app hacked server story for a cautionary tale among others.)

And as for regular computers requiring too much tinkering to work, I think you're overestimating the amount of change the iPlatforms and other neutered computing environments will bring in that regard. Firstly, I think you're overstating the amount of tinkering required in Mac OS X or Windows 7. To the extent there is tinkering it's usually because of a software error on the vendor's part that one can correct through tinkering (try doing that on the iPlatforms - if the GUI doesn't do what you want in an app you're completely stuck). Secondly, if, as you and others contend (and I'm not being argumentative against you personally here but rather against the mindset you're articulating), if we're going in the direction of neutered computing replacing general computing, then neutered computing is going to have to get more complex in order to support a wider range of computing abilities, user demands, peripheral hardware support, etc.. That was already mentioned by turtle. Right now the iPlatforms rely on being tied to real computers as the conduit to most of their software and data. You can't even use an iPad without registering it with iTunes first. Let's see Apple turn the iPlatforms into devices that can fend for themselves in that regard, and then we can talk about whether or not they are the future of computing in general.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 9, 2010 at 05:38 PM. )

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Jun 9, 2010, 05:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
That's going to get awful wearing on the arms - way too much physical movement required to operate at a "amount of stuff on screen" resolution similar to today's high end monitors. I mean, is a 50" touch screen interface with icons/objects large enough for stubby fingers really going to compete with a 30" WIMP where all the icons/objects are tiny? Are you really going to want to reach over 20-plus-inches to reach that icon/object you can currently get to with a flick of the mouse?
How odd.

Even if you ignore RADAR, I'm *quite* certain people have been recording for some decades now.

I'm sure I remember people using faders and buttons and patch cords over six-plus-FEET to do stuff you can currently get to with a flick of the mouse.

In fact, it would seem that you do, too:

(I never use the mixer, BTW - I'm strictly outside the box. But if I was ITB I'd go Euphonix - now that's a proper digital interface!)
Bought up by Avid, IIRC. I wouldn't trust that investment.

As control surfaces and RADAR evidence, removing as much of the computer from the creative process as possible is a GOOD THING.

That applies to the abstraction mouse/window/file system/pull-down menu as well.

We'll see how it goes.

iMovie on the new iPhone is a first consumer toy, tiny, tiny baby-step, but I think it shows the direction.
     
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
The point about the iPad is the software, not the hardware.

That's the revolution.
I figure the point of the iPad is about both. It's essentially a regression to what punters need (web, email, bit of word processing), but packaged in a nice new couch-friendly package.

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
VSL requires a G4 processor (G5 recommended) and 1 GB RAM. That's trivial. Apple could build an iPad functionally superior to that by the end of the year for not much money. They probably won't, yet, because the software isn't nearly at the point where this would be required.

750GB of storage? So what? This stuff is easy.

It's making the interface scale to deal with studio requirements that's the hard part.
So, how do I hook up the 48 channels of 24/96 to said iPadesque thingy? Where do I put the Duende and the PowerCore and the iLok?

And how's a touch screen interface going to cope with flitting from Logic to Melodyne to Peak?

Let's face it, proper towers ain't going to go away any time soon, they ain't going to inhabit "everything over wifi" utopia in short order and touch screen is a long, long way off for anything but the simplest punter tasks.
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Jun 9, 2010, 05:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Then you're computing needs and desires are more simplistic and less demanding than I would have thought.

So you like single tasking environments? I have a 1984 Mac that you'll be very happy with.
If you say so. How much RAM and CPU you need in your hardware in order for your job as a "Web Content Director/Currency Trader" I can imagine using MS Word all day would need a ton of RAM, a 256 meg video card, DVD drive and huge amounts of storage.

Like I said I've been doing professional web design full time since 1996. 72DPI files in 1024 x 768 for website design doesn't need i7 chips and 8 gigs of RAM. Video editors might need more power though but I don't know any.

Even when I retouched the 20,000+ images I worked with over the years it was easily done on a G5 in photoshop.

When the Dual Core CPU's hit it pretty much peeked for what what most people need for their computers.

As for single task... yes it is just fine thanks. I like notification and the ease that other apps need switching to but I sure as hell do NOT need a sidebar with a giant clock, 3 lines of RSS feeds, weather, photo slideshow and a CPU monitor running and taking up screen space the WHOLE TIME. My iPad works much better than i thought single task as switching to another app is TWO button presses away. 1) home button 2) App. Heck that is no harder work than switching apps on my MacBook and with OS4 just as fast.

In fact I don't see many people not running most pro apps like Photoshop, Flash, dreamweaver only taking up part of the screen with other apps floating all around it.

Thanks for your 1984 Mac but I am afraid the primitive mouse/gui and really slow CPU won't cut it. Got any cheap iPads with 100X more power, great apps, unintrusive OS you wanna share though? Perhaps you can use that old mac to write web content or not enough MHz to type?

Oh and you guys remember how switching to Intel chips was the end of the Mac as we know it?
     
 
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