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When will PPC be unsupported?
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tightsocks
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Feb 10, 2011, 02:22 AM
 
Is there an official date that Apple will end support for PPC machines?

There are plenty of G4 and G5 systems that run Leopard and are viable for basic usage.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 10, 2011, 02:25 AM
 
I don't know how much longer Apple will continue to provide security updates for Leopard, but other than that Apple's support of Power Macs was essentially finished with the debut of Snow Leopard.

Aside from that, without Apple support those Macs will continue to run the software they've always been able to run.

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tightsocks  (op)
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Feb 10, 2011, 03:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
I don't know how much longer Apple will continue to provide security updates for Leopard.
They need to offer some guidance on this.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 10, 2011, 03:29 AM
 
I don't know if they'll offer any guaranteed timelines, but they're still providing updates to various 10.5 components. The most recent update (to QuickTime) came out in December.

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P
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Feb 10, 2011, 03:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by tightsocks View Post
They need to offer some guidance on this.
They never do, and this is a known issue. One of the reasons Apple is small in enterprise settings is this - of course, they don't care about enterprise. Best guess is that we'll continue to see security updates until the release of Lion, at which point PPC can be considered unsupported.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Feb 10, 2011, 04:26 AM
 
At least for hardware, we know that the general rule is five years until obsoletion (no more spare parts from Apple).
     
OreoCookie
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Feb 10, 2011, 04:49 AM
 
Well, the writing is on the wall:
(1) 10.5 Leopard is the last PowerPC release of OS X.
(2) Rosetta is an optional install as of 10.6.
(3) The number of Intel-based Macs has eclipsed the installed base of PowerPC-based Macs many, many moons ago.
(4) Several important apps ship Intel-only.

I don't know why you're even asking, PowerPC is on its way out. I haven't checked when tech support (parts, repairs, etc.) ends for the last PowerPC-based Macs, but I reckon it's soon or it has already happened (they support hardware for 5~6 years).

If you're still using a PowerPC-based Mac, I'd start saving for an upgrade. If you move from something like a G5 to a Sandy Bridge-based Intel Mac, you'll be in for one very pleasant surprise.
Originally Posted by tightsocks View Post
They need to offer some guidance on this.
I think they are pretty clear: no more OS X support on new versions, Rosetta is an optional install (and may or may not disappear with 10.7 Lion), end of support for hardware nears.
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Big Mac
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Feb 10, 2011, 05:04 AM
 
I think you misunderstand tightscoks's question. He's not asking about general support but rather small maintenance updates for Leopard, which Apple has continued to provide.

I think P's suggestion is plausible - end of maintenance updates for Leopard when Lion comes out.

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OreoCookie
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Feb 10, 2011, 06:21 AM
 
Even then, the answer is obvious: in Apple's history, Apple has provided update for the most recent and the next most recent version of OS X, e. g. now, it is providing updates of 10.5 and 10.6. When 10.5 was the most recent version, it provided updates for 10.4 and 10.5.

If that trend continues, support for 10.5 will end with the release of Lion which is scheduled for summer 2011.
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P
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Feb 10, 2011, 07:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I think they are pretty clear: no more OS X support on new versions, Rosetta is an optional install (and may or may not disappear with 10.7 Lion), end of support for hardware nears.
Rosetta going missing with Lion is one of my biggest fears for coming OS X releases. Not that I use PPC apps on a regular basis or anything, but there is one that I will not lose - Alpha Centauri. Even the Carbon port was unofficial, so it has really managed to live for a long time, but Lion better bring something amazing if it's going to entice me to upgrade.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Big Mac
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Feb 10, 2011, 07:42 AM
 
I think Rosetta will probably hold on at least into Lion as an optional install. There's a lot of education and low end gaming software that never went over to Intel (having barely made it OS X) that I would assume Apple would like to keep support for - for at least a while longer. On the other hand, Classic was jettisoned before its time (i.e. taken out of Leopard), so it's possible.

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OreoCookie
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Feb 10, 2011, 09:01 AM
 
I don't mind if Rosetta sticks around for another point release. But even then, the writing is on the wall, it'll disappear with 10.8 the latest, I think. I also have a few old educational apps that are PowerPC-only. My photo printers drivers were PowerPC-only, but Snow Leopard shipped with Gutenprint drivers
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tightsocks  (op)
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Feb 10, 2011, 08:57 PM
 
Basically, I'm concerned with security updates.

All of the moms and grandmothers who have viable G4/G5's will need to either buy a new machine or go unpatched...

Adobe has just stopped offering security fixes for Flash plugin on PPC.
     
Rainy Day
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Feb 26, 2011, 08:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The answer is obvious: in Apple's history, Apple has provided update for the most recent and the next most recent version of OS X, e. g. now, it is providing updates of 10.5 and 10.6. When 10.5 was the most recent version, it provided updates for 10.4 and 10.5.

If that trend continues, support for 10.5 will end with the release of Lion which is scheduled for summer 2011.
Yes, Apple has been very consistent in this pattern. It's common industry practice too. You see it in the BSD's (e.g. OpenBSD). Don't expect any more Leopard updates after Lion is out.

Originally Posted by tightsocks View Post
Basically, I'm concerned with security updates.

All of the moms and grandmothers who have viable G4/G5's will need to either buy a new machine or go unpatched...
I maintain a Mac OS X Leopard Server for a non-profit. We're looking at our options because we don't expect security updates after Lion ships. Unfortunately, our iMac has a 32-bit CPU. We're pondering dropping a 64-bit Core 2 Duo into it so it can run Lion.

Maybe it's time mom and the grandparents move on over to iPads?

Originally Posted by P View Post
Rosetta going missing with Lion is one of my biggest fears for coming OS X releases.
I'd be very surprised if Rosetta makes it into Lion. Apple clearly wants to leave 32-bit applications in the rear-view mirror. The fact Rosetta was an optional install in Snow Leopard is handwriting on the wall. I doubt that Apple will put in any effort to bring Rosetta up to 64-bits. They want to leave all that legacy code behind, and have only modern applications moving forward.
     
cgc
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Feb 26, 2011, 09:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by tightsocks View Post
Basically, I'm concerned with security updates.

All of the moms and grandmothers who have viable G4/G5's will need to either buy a new machine or go unpatched...

Adobe has just stopped offering security fixes for Flash plugin on PPC.
I have a Sawtooth G4 running 10.4 and iTheater connected to my old TV and not connected to the Internet (thus no need for security patches). Works great... If you want to continue using a secure PPC machine I suggest using a PPC Linux. There are a LOT of similarities between OSX and Linux (obviously) so it's not a huge leap...Debian is one of the most supported Linux distros out there and still supports PowerPC in their recent release of Debian 6 (aka Debian Squeeze).
( Last edited by cgc; Feb 26, 2011 at 09:14 PM. )
     
P
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Feb 27, 2011, 03:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Rainy Day View Post
I'd be very surprised if Rosetta makes it into Lion. Apple clearly wants to leave 32-bit applications in the rear-view mirror. The fact Rosetta was an optional install in Snow Leopard is handwriting on the wall. I doubt that Apple will put in any effort to bring Rosetta up to 64-bits. They want to leave all that legacy code behind, and have only modern applications moving forward.
It's certainly handwriting on the wall - and indeed Rosetta is missing from the Lion preview - but I really don't like it. There are games from that era that I play on occasion and I just won't lose. Will have to see if I can set up some sort of emulation box or something.

Note that dropping support for the 32-bit Core Duo doesn't help anything. The 32-bit libraries will have to be there to let 32-bit apps run, so they can't be an optional install like Rosetta was. They can't move to a 64-bit kernel because of firmware issues on other old models, so I really don't see why they're dropping the Core Duos.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
reader50
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Feb 27, 2011, 03:27 PM
 
They could offer firmware updates on the 2006 Intel Macs, so the suckers who bought early ... er, so the helpful early adopters will not be left out. But then people have less motivation to buy a new Mac from Apple.

Perhaps I'm reading it wrong.
     
tightsocks  (op)
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Feb 27, 2011, 04:11 PM
 
Apple didn't follow their own policy then...

They have not been releasing security updates for 10.4 since Snow Leopard came out, BUT they did release Safari 4.1.x updates specifically for 10.4. Which makes no sense, really.
Why release an update for a system which is otherwise unsupported??

OT: Also, leaving Java out of Lion is crazy. What will happen to the OpenOffice variants?
     
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Feb 27, 2011, 04:19 PM
 
When you try to run a java app, it will offer to download and install Java.
     
Rainy Day
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Feb 27, 2011, 11:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Note that dropping support for the 32-bit Core Duo doesn't help anything. The 32-bit libraries will have to be there to let 32-bit apps run, so they can't be an optional install like Rosetta was. They can't move to a 64-bit kernel because of firmware issues on other old models, so I really don't see why they're dropping the Core Duos.
Hmmm. Exclusive support of a 64-bit kernel is the only reason i can think of to ditch all 32-bit support. I'd forgotten that early 64-bit Macs didn't support the 64-bit kernel. It appears only 2008 and later Macs (2010 for the Mac mini) are 64-bit kernel compatible. It seems to me they're going to have support the 32-bit kernel in Lion. I agree with you, it certainly begs the question: Why no Core Duo support?

I suppose, if it's only a firmware issue standing in the way of older 64-bit Macs running the 64-bit kernel, Apple could flash a new firmware version… but i wouldn't count on it.

Guess we'll know more when Lion's minimum hardware requirements are released publicly.

Originally Posted by tightsocks View Post
Apple didn't follow their own policy then...

They have not been releasing security updates for 10.4 since Snow Leopard came out, BUT they did release Safari 4.1.x updates specifically for 10.4.
Yeah, i did notice they had a rogue Tiger security update a while back. It seemed unusual to me at the time, because Tiger had fallen off the maintenance curve. I remember thinking it was nice of them to make that exception to the policy.

Originally Posted by tightsocks View Post
OT: Also, leaving Java out of Lion is crazy. What will happen to the OpenOffice variants?
Get Java for Mac from Oracle: Oracle and Apple announce OpenJDK Project for Java on Mac OS X
     
CharlesS
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Mar 9, 2011, 09:31 PM
 
Well, now that Xcode 4 has been officially released through the App Store, I suppose it's okay to reveal that they went out of their way with this release to discourage building apps for PPC. I haven't even been able to figure out a way to get it to work at all in the release version that doesn't involve copying over files from earlier versions of Xcode. Thus, if Apple is using Xcode internally for development, this means that they will likely not be releasing anything built for PPC in the future. At the very least, you can expect PPC support in any new third-party applications to dry up quickly... in all likelihood, this is the end of the line for PPC Macs.

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Mar 10, 2011, 12:58 AM
 
Just for the record, there is no Rosetta (nor Front Row for that matter) in the Lion preview. Usually a good indicator that it will be axed completely.

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Mar 10, 2011, 01:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Well, now that Xcode 4 has been officially released through the App Store, I suppose it's okay to reveal that they went out of their way with this release to discourage building apps for PPC. I haven't even been able to figure out a way to get it to work at all in the release version that doesn't involve copying over files from earlier versions of Xcode. Thus, if Apple is using Xcode internally for development, this means that they will likely not be releasing anything built for PPC in the future. At the very least, you can expect PPC support in any new third-party applications to dry up quickly... in all likelihood, this is the end of the line for PPC Macs.
Hmmm... I got the impression that really 2010 was almost effectively the end of the line, because so much software is Intel only these days. The difference between 2009 and 2010 in PPC support is remarkable. The biggest change I noticed was Flash. The second biggest I noticed was Adobe CS5.

I wonder how long I'll be able to coax basic usage out of my iMac G4 1.25 GHz and my Cube 1.7 GHz. However, in truth I've already replaced one of them with a cheap Atom Win 7 machine.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Mar 10, 2011, 06:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
They could offer firmware updates on the 2006 Intel Macs, so the suckers who bought early ... er, so the helpful early adopters will not be left out.
Honestly: after five years, I think the "early adopter" aura has faded enough. The boxes can all run 10.6, which will probably continue to be supported until well into 2013, at which point, they'll be at least six or seven years old.

That's a pretty good run for staying current, "early adopter" or no.
     
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Mar 10, 2011, 09:25 AM
 
Lack of support for OS updates is much less of a concern than killing off Rosetta. The VAST majority of home users never apply a paid upgrade to the OS at all - those that do are either enthusiasts or did it because some new app demanded it.

Killing off Rosetta means that users that buy a new Mac can no longer use their old programs - programs that Migration Assistant has just moved from the old computer. That is almost unheard of after such a short transition - I think Vista officially disabled some old Win 3.1 programs, but other than that, apps work unless they're buggy. Removing Classic with the Intel Macs was quick, but there was a very good reason for it, there were obvious benefits to doing it, and any old Classic app was visibly different from other OS X apps. PPC apps look EXACTLY like current apps with the tiny exception of a small one-time download the first time you launch any app. The only way this works is if Apple is counting on the vast majority of its users having arrived after the x86 transition. That's probably true, but I wonder how noisy that minority is going to be.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
tightsocks  (op)
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Mar 11, 2011, 06:36 AM
 
Should I be content to let my mom keep using her G4 iBook(mid 2005) with 10.5.8 and unsupported Flash plugin for the next 1-2 years?
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 07:46 AM
 
Probably OK if you install Click2Flash and set it to block invisible Flash objects.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Mar 11, 2011, 09:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by tightsocks View Post
Should I be content to let my mom keep using her G4 iBook(mid 2005) with 10.5.8 and unsupported Flash plugin for the next 1-2 years?
Why not? As long as she doesn't complain. If she starts to see that her computer is not up to the task anymore, then you can upgrade it. People who are not into computers see much less reason to upgrade (the `as long as it works' mentality). When my father's PowerPC-based Mac mini was killed by a faulty USB hub (shorted out the motherboard, argh!), he wanted `the same computer.' Fortunately, the Mac mini's design wasn't changed and it looked like the same computer He was even skeptical to even look at an iMac (which IMHO is a better fit).
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Mar 11, 2011, 02:02 PM
 
Not wanting to spend $1000 on a new MacBook and having my GF get it covered in flour in the kitchen, I let her use my cheap 11.6" Win 7 netbook (with C2D class CPU) to replace her 2003 iBook for basic in-home surfing. (We already have multiple desktops, and a MacBook Pro for the road.) She hated the two-button trackpad on that netbook.

So, I'm considering replacing it with an iPad 2. It would be a faster computer for surfing, and she'd actually have more access to online video content than the 2003 iBook can provide. (The iBook is too slow to do Flash properly.)
     
Don Pickett
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Mar 12, 2011, 02:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Killing off Rosetta means that users that buy a new Mac can no longer use their old programs - programs that Migration Assistant has just moved from the old computer. That is almost unheard of after such a short transition - I think Vista officially disabled some old Win 3.1 programs, but other than that, apps work unless they're buggy. Removing Classic with the Intel Macs was quick, but there was a very good reason for it, there were obvious benefits to doing it, and any old Classic app was visibly different from other OS X apps. PPC apps look EXACTLY like current apps with the tiny exception of a small one-time download the first time you launch any app. The only way this works is if Apple is counting on the vast majority of its users having arrived after the x86 transition. That's probably true, but I wonder how noisy that minority is going to be.
I only use one Rosetta app--Quicken 2007--and only because Quicken decided to completely mess up the latest version of Quicken.
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Mar 12, 2011, 04:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett View Post
I only use one Rosetta app--Quicken 2007--and only because Quicken decided to completely mess up the latest version of Quicken.
Heh. I was using Parallels for that (which is one program that really made that 8 GB in my machine come in handy), since I had info in my Windows version of Quicken that supposedly wouldn't transfer over to a Mac version. I can't believe that after a decade Intuit still properly convert their very own data.

Finally I just said screw it and bought a PC for Quicken and to teach myself Windows 7, and for hardware peripheral updates, etc. BTW, this triple-core 4 GB slim-tower with GeForce 9200 and dual video output cost all of $399, including a 20" LCD.
     
Don Pickett
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Mar 13, 2011, 11:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Heh. I was using Parallels for that (which is one program that really made that 8 GB in my machine come in handy), since I had info in my Windows version of Quicken that supposedly wouldn't transfer over to a Mac version. I can't believe that after a decade Intuit still properly convert their very own data.

Finally I just said screw it and bought a PC for Quicken and to teach myself Windows 7, and for hardware peripheral updates, etc. BTW, this triple-core 4 GB slim-tower with GeForce 9200 and dual video output cost all of $399, including a 20" LCD.
Looks like Quicken 2011 is supported under CrossOver, so I will probably just switch to that.
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Mar 14, 2011, 10:37 AM
 
You can switch from Quicken Windows to Quicken Mac, with some issues, but can you do the reverse? In the past, IIRC, you could not.
     
Don Pickett
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Mar 14, 2011, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
You can switch from Quicken Windows to Quicken Mac, with some issues, but can you do the reverse? In the past, IIRC, you could not.
Dunno: haven't done the research yet. I would hope that Quicken uses the same format for its data between versions. . .

edit: the other thing for me to do is to find another OS X native financial program and tell Inuit to get lost. My needs for Quicken aren't terribly complicated, so I might be able to do that.
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Apr 3, 2011, 03:37 PM
 
define 'support' ? what do you want from Apple for your 10 year old computer? If it still works for your needs surely you have learned to do your own support by now. If you want to keep installing the lastest ever more bloated OS then you are shooting yourself in the foot anyway. Leeave the latest greatest software OS/Apps to the newest machines and revel in the simplicity of your rock solid computer that hasnt been 'upgraded' in years.
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Apr 4, 2011, 12:29 PM
 
In preparation for Lion, I exported my Quicken data yesterday and imported it into See Finance, which I've been playing with for about a month. So far, so good.
     
Don Pickett
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Apr 5, 2011, 04:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
In preparation for Lion, I exported my Quicken data yesterday and imported it into See Finance, which I've been playing with for about a month. So far, so good.
I've been looking at iBank.
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