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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > October 23, 2012 Apple event: "We've got a little more to show you."

October 23, 2012 Apple event: "We've got a little more to show you." (Page 3)
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Spheric Harlot
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Oct 23, 2012, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Do we think the new desktop Macs have standard SO-DIMMs in them?
The 27" at least has 4 user-accessible SO-DIMM slots. That comment is conspicuously missing from the 21" specs...

http://www.apple.com/imac/specs/

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
It looks like they are at least removable in the 21" since it states 2x4GB
From what I can see on the German Apple website, the 21.5" model does NOT have user-accessible slots. It can be configured to order with up to 16 GB.

The 27" model has a user-accessible RAM access panel, and can eat up to 32GB of RAM.
     
Shaddim
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Oct 23, 2012, 03:30 PM
 
iPad Mini. Too expensive. They're idiots.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Waragainstsleep
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Oct 23, 2012, 04:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Someone at Ars had a theory. You can concatenate two drives in Disk Utility, if you like - software JBOD. We already know that OS X moves files around to put the most used files on the inner track of an HDD. Now say that you make a JBOD of an SSD and an HDD and let that optimization algorithm know where the SSD ended and the HDD started, and then set it to do its magic on all files. Doesn't that sound a lot like Fusion drive?
Thats essentially what I suggested earlier except I didn't explicitly mention JBOD. I have an SSD big enough for my OS and apps, my user folder lives on a big HDD due to my huge iTunes movie libraries. Fusion just seems to be a smarter, more robust version.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 23, 2012, 04:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
From what I can see on the German Apple website, the 21.5" model does NOT have user-accessible slots. It can be configured to order with up to 16 GB.
The 27" model has a user-accessible RAM access panel, and can eat up to 32GB of RAM.
So why would the spec mention that it has 2 modules? If you can't swap them, it useless info. My bet is that the 21.5" has only two slots but they are upgradeable.


Edit: It looks like the 21.5" doesn't have user-accessible RAM after all. Only the big one does.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
mattyb
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Oct 24, 2012, 12:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
iPad Mini. Too expensive. They're idiots.
I'm quite glad that someone in your financial situation wrote something like this. I was discussing this price last night and while we all know that Apple are expensive compared to similar hardware specs, we pay the premium for the loverly OS (I do anyway). But this is above and beyond that premium. I'm actually disgusted by their setting of such a price.

My opinion : Google's Nexus 7 is going to clean up at Xmas.
     
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Oct 24, 2012, 12:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by mattyb View Post
Starting from 339€. Thats $439.
FFS.
That makes the Swedish prices look good...
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
P
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Oct 24, 2012, 12:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
So why would the spec mention that it has 2 modules? If you can't swap them, it useless info. My bet is that the 21.5" has only two slots but they are upgradeable.
Edit: It looks like the 21.5" doesn't have user-accessible RAM after all. Only the big one does.
If I had to guess, I'd guess that the slots are about as accessible as the HDD - can be replaced, but it's not easy enough to be called "user accessible".
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 24, 2012, 02:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
If I had to guess, I'd guess that the slots are about as accessible as the HDD - can be replaced, but it's not easy enough to be called "user accessible".
I hope so. I could live with that.

The Mac Mini has survived the plague of non-upgradeable RAM. For now.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 24, 2012, 02:43 AM
 
What? It's very easy to upgrade RAM in the Mini.
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dav
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Oct 24, 2012, 03:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
If I had to guess, I'd guess that the slots are about as accessible as the HDD - can be replaced, but it's not easy enough to be called "user accessible".
not what i read:
macgasm" url="http://www.macgasm.net/2012/10/23/the-21-5-inch-imac-no-longer-allows-for-ram-upgrades"]
"This happened because the new iMac is pretty darn thin, giving it little extra room internally. Apple had to custom design RAM sticks for the iMac and then solder them to the motherboard, making the RAM impossible to remove without damage."[/quote]
one post closer to five stars
     
ajprice
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Oct 24, 2012, 03:46 AM
 
Are there any 'hands on' pictures of the back of the white/silver iPad mini? In the shiny shiny promo photos, i can't work out what colour the logo is on the back - black, white or polished/chrome.

It'll be much easier if you just comply.
     
ajprice
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Oct 24, 2012, 04:03 AM
 
iPad mini get's Siri, that the iPad 2 doesn't have - http://appleinsider.com/articles/12/10/23/ipad-mini-gets-siri-but-ipad-2-still-left-without

It'll be much easier if you just comply.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 24, 2012, 04:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
What? It's very easy to upgrade RAM in the Mini.
Yes, thats what I said. It has survived the plague of planned early obsolescence because it still has standard SO-DIMMs.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
osiris
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Oct 24, 2012, 05:57 AM
 
re: iPad mini

First thing I thought of when I saw the price: "That's too fu*kin' high!" (Think the movie Used Cars)

There's psychological barrier at $299, so I think pricing something at $329 is a slap in the face - especially when your competition's prices are much cheaper. Plus you need to buy adapters.

Whatever... I shan't be buying this. Yet.
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Spheric Harlot
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Oct 24, 2012, 06:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
re: iPad mini

First thing I thought of when I saw the price: "That's too fu*kin' high!"  (Think the movie Used Cars)

There's psychological barrier at $299, so I think pricing something at $329 is a slap in the face - especially when your competition's prices are much cheaper.  
They do have a point that there ARE no competitors to the iPad mini.

Not really, there aren't.
     
ort888
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Oct 24, 2012, 06:09 AM
 
Yeah, I have very little interest as well.

The only thing that would have made me want one would have been a crazy low price.

So far it seems like the reactions online have been very tepid. That usually means Apple is going to sell 400 bazzillion of them.

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osiris
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Oct 24, 2012, 06:31 AM
 
We shall see how iPad mini does - as a stock holder I wish it great success.

btw I love the new iMac - that is pretty slick engineering.
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Oct 24, 2012, 06:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by dav View Post
not what i read:
Try following the links backwards: Macgasm quotes Mac|life which quotes Cult of Mac which has posted only one thing - exactly the same little comment on the iMac specs page that I already noted. Noone knows, we're just guessing.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 24, 2012, 06:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Originally Posted by dav View Post
not what i read:
Try following the links backwards: Macgasm quotes Mac|life which quotes Cult of Mac which has posted only one thing - exactly the same little comment on the iMac specs page that I already noted. Noone knows, we're just guessing.
There's more than that:

http://www.apple.com/imac/performance/
Memory
The 21.5-inch iMac comes with 8GB of memory and can be configured online with 16GB. On the 27-inch iMac, 8GB of memory comes standard, and you can upgrade to 16GB or 32GB. Configure and buy your iMac at the Apple Online Store and it will arrive with the memory already installed. Or add more memory to the 27-inch model yourself by popping open the easy-to-access memory panel on the back.
That's pretty damn explicitly stated.

No confusion there, at all.
     
ort888
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Oct 24, 2012, 07:02 AM
 
I'm not impressed by these iMacs.

I've never been interested in buying a $1,000 monitor with a laptop glued to the back. 5 years from now, when the screen is still great, the computer won't be. It's just seems wasteful.

I really hope these new Mac Pro's or whatever they are coming out with are really great, and maybe, just maybe, they won't start at $2,500 bucks.

I would love to see some sort of modular system built around Thunderbolt, that lets you build out your own box as you need it.

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Spheric Harlot
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Oct 24, 2012, 07:07 AM
 
Here it is:

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6402/up-close-with-the-new-27inch-imacs-user-serviceable-memory-panel



The 21.5" model IS upgradeable, but needs to be dismantled for RAM installation.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 24, 2012, 07:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
I'm not impressed by these iMacs.

I've never been interested in buying a $1,000 monitor with a laptop glued to the back. 5 years from now, when the screen is still great, the computer won't be. It's just seems wasteful.
Welcome to 1998, 99, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, and 2011.

I don't think a year has gone by since the original iMac where this argument didn't come up.

Actually, there may have been one year where it didn't. I might be wrong, though.
     
ort888
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Oct 24, 2012, 08:19 AM
 
No, I know.

iMacs have a place in this world, I'm just not spending my money on one.

I use one at work and it's great.

I would be a lot more open to them if you could actually open them. It's an old fashioned way of thinking, I know... what can I say.

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SSharon
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Oct 24, 2012, 09:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
I've never been interested in buying a $1,000 monitor with a laptop glued to the back. 5 years from now, when the screen is still great, the computer won't be. It's just seems wasteful.
I'm not positive, but I thought that since the iMacs got the thunderbolt port they can be used as external monitors. In that case it just means a monitor with a chin in 5 years instead of just trash. This actually makes having the computer internals being extra slim a bonus since it won't look like you are using a full computer just for the monitor.
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Oct 24, 2012, 09:56 AM
 
I like all the refreshes... and I like the iPad mini... but I can't get it through my head that they already did a big update to the "new iPad." When was the last time they shafted people within a year on this big of a scale? I'm guessing when iPods were the hot item? I feel like this hugely being overlooked... Do you guys think the 3rd gen iPad will show up in the clearance section on Apple's site?
     
CharlesS
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Oct 24, 2012, 10:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
iPad Mini. Too expensive. They're idiots.
The iPad mini isn't the only thing that's crazy expensive. Have you looked at what they want to upgrade the SSD on the 13" Retina to 512 GB? It's a jaw-dropping $800. The price for this machine looks great on paper, but once you try to upgrade the storage in this thing, it becomes almost as expensive as the 15" model similarly upgraded. And of course, you can't put more than 8 GB of RAM, despite the fact that the machine would probably support greater than 8 GB just fine, like the non-Retina 13" model does (8 GB officially, 16 GB unofficially).

Sigh. Maybe next year.

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Oct 24, 2012, 12:55 PM
 
$2k for a decent 13" RMBP... too much.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 24, 2012, 01:00 PM
 
Didn't read the entire thread, but the iPad mini price point looks like it's made set itself apart from the Touch and also to give them a very obvious new price point to drop it to in a year or so.
     
SSharon
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Oct 24, 2012, 01:26 PM
 
I'm surprised more people don't complain that the upgrade to include cellular antennas is $130.
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Waragainstsleep
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Oct 24, 2012, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
I'm surprised more people don't complain that the upgrade to include cellular antennas is $130.

Yeah, this one annoys me too. You can get a Mifi for a fraction of that and with iOS 6, many many more people have now got personal hotspot on their iPhone for no extra charge. I don't know why anyone would buy the cellular iPads.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ajprice
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Oct 24, 2012, 01:44 PM
 
Mac mini 2.3 quad i7 with 4GB scores 11697 on geekbench - http://browser.primatelabs.com/geekbench2/1192485

It'll be much easier if you just comply.
     
Phileas
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Oct 24, 2012, 05:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Yeah, this one annoys me too. You can get a Mifi for a fraction of that and with iOS 6, many many more people have now got personal hotspot on their iPhone for no extra charge. I don't know why anyone would buy the cellular iPads.
Convenience. That's why I bought mine.

If you use your iPad a lot when out of the office, then having an always on connection is incredibly useful. Tethering works but drains your iPhone battery and eats into phone data. Mifi is yet another thing to schlep/charge/connect/think about.

Especially in a business environment, $130 (plus data) to make sure you always have access to files/can give a quick presentation/don't miss email is a minimal outlay.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 24, 2012, 09:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacinTommy View Post
I like all the refreshes... and I like the iPad mini... but I can't get it through my head that they already did a big update to the "new iPad." When was the last time they shafted people within a year on this big of a scale? I'm guessing when iPods were the hot item? I feel like this hugely being overlooked... Do you guys think the 3rd gen iPad will show up in the clearance section on Apple's site?
I really don't think it's that big a deal.

The new iPad isn't *that* different from the last one - arguably, the old connector may yet be preferable.

It certainly isn't *nearly on the scale as the iSight G5 iMac buyers. They had a run of three months IIRC before their machines were hopelessly obsoleted.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 24, 2012, 09:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by SSharon View Post
Originally Posted by ort888 View Post
I've never been interested in buying a $1,000 monitor with a laptop glued to the back. 5 years from now, when the screen is still great, the computer won't be. It's just seems wasteful.
I'm not positive, but I thought that since the iMacs got the thunderbolt port they can be used as external monitors. In that case it just means a monitor with a chin in 5 years instead of just trash. This actually makes having the computer internals being extra slim a bonus since it won't look like you are using a full computer just for the monitor.
this has been possible since the initial 27" iMac.

Those machines required DisplayPort input.

Since thunderbolt, they actually require Thunderbolt input.

This limits the usefulness of that feature.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 24, 2012, 11:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Convenience. That's why I bought mine.
If you use your iPad a lot when out of the office, then having an always on connection is incredibly useful. Tethering works but drains your iPhone battery and eats into phone data. Mifi is yet another thing to schlep/charge/connect/think about.
Especially in a business environment, $130 (plus data) to make sure you always have access to files/can give a quick presentation/don't miss email is a minimal outlay.
I've never really understood why "business environment" has always been such a good excuse to rip people off. Its basically a laziness tax.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 25, 2012, 01:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
Convenience. That's why I bought mine.
If you use your iPad a lot when out of the office, then having an always on connection is incredibly useful. Tethering works but drains your iPhone battery and eats into phone data. Mifi is yet another thing to schlep/charge/connect/think about.
Especially in a business environment, $130 (plus data) to make sure you always have access to files/can give a quick presentation/don't miss email is a minimal outlay.
I've never really understood why "business environment" has always been such a good excuse to rip people off. Its basically a laziness tax.
"Business environment" generally simply means a world where time and effort are more valuable than money.

You save what you can, to deal with more important things.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 25, 2012, 02:34 AM
 
Thats a cop out.

A maker/seller thinks like this:

"Oh you're in education? Ok you can have a small discount."
"Oh its for business use? That'll be a 150% premium then for the 'business version'."
"Oh its for government use? The 'government version' is 300% more than retail."
"Oh its for use in a healthcare facility? That will be 500% for the 'medical grade version'."

If people weren't dumb enough to pay it, sellers wouldn't get away with it. Its usually because the company credit card is from someone else's company, or you can write it off against tax. or you think you can at the time.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 25, 2012, 03:14 AM
 
Huh?

This isn't about discounts.

This is about offering products that certain audiences are willing to pay for, while certain other audiences are wondering who would be "stupid" enough to pay for them.

You know, like the fandroids/Windroids/etc. wondering who would be dumb enough to buy an Apple product.

There are good reasons people are willing to spend this kind of money, and as long as there are enough of them, a company would be fairly stupid to offer the same products for less.
     
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Oct 25, 2012, 06:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If people weren't dumb enough to pay it, sellers wouldn't get away with it. Its usually because the company credit card is from someone else's company, or you can write it off against tax. or you think you can at the time.
I own the business, so the money comes out of my pocket.

Just because somebody doesn't share your opinion doesn't mean they are dumb. It just means that, perhaps, their needs differ from yours. For me the convenience of carrying an "always on" device with me without having to worry about additional hardware/chargers/will it stay connected issues is worth the premium.

In business, an iPad is a tool that helps me to create profits. A couple of weeks ago I was in a position where I wanted to show a person I had just met at an event a project we were working on. Pulled out the iPad, opened dropbox, pulled up the relevant files and shared them right there and then, with zero hassle. The guy actually commented on how professional this made our company look. It lead to a $30,000 contract.

In that context, who cares about $130? Not me.
     
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Oct 25, 2012, 06:57 AM
 
And that's how you roll. Yeaaaaaaah!

Me, I pull into the McD's parking lot to use free wifi and save the $130. Most of the places I go there is wifi, except off in the wilds of New England.

Someday I may trade my smartphone + wifi ipad for a dumbphone + cell ipad. The ipad is just more usable for on the go things like maps, reading web pages, etc.
     
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Oct 25, 2012, 06:57 AM
 
I'm wondering if they priced the Mini high because they knew they wouldn't be able to make enough of them this Christmas anyway. My guess is that next year the 6th Gen iPod touch drops to 199, the iPad mini to either 299 or 249, and the iPad price stays the same.

I'd consider getting a mini if it had an A6 chip. As it stands I'd be paying 300 for something that is simply a bit smaller than my retina iPad without the better screen. Though Having seen people with Nexus 7s they are significantly more portable so I might buy one eventually.
     
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Oct 25, 2012, 07:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
And that's how you roll. Yeaaaaaaah!
Me, I pull into the McD's parking lot to use free wifi and save the $130. Most of the places I go there is wifi, except off in the wilds of New England.
Someday I may trade my smartphone + wifi ipad for a dumbphone + cell ipad. The ipad is just more usable for on the go things like maps, reading web pages, etc.
I wasn't trying to show off. If I would not be using the iPad for business the way I do I'd do just what you're doing.
     
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Oct 25, 2012, 07:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Salty View Post
I'm wondering if they priced the Mini high because they knew they wouldn't be able to make enough of them this Christmas anyway. .
This is my theory as well. I think it would be $299 otherwise, and I think it will drop to that after Christmas. I also suspect that there will be a cheaper 8 gig version at least for education.

Originally Posted by Salty View Post
My guess is that next year the 6th Gen iPod touch drops to 199, the iPad mini to either 299 or 249, and the iPad price stays the same.
I suspect that the 6th Gen iPod costs as it does to avoid using up all the parts, but Apple doesn't usually drop prices significantly for no reason. They did for the iPhone, but that was the exception (and they paid back to those who bought it for more).

Originally Posted by Salty View Post
I'd consider getting a mini if it had an A6 chip. As it stands I'd be paying 300 for something that is simply a bit smaller than my retina iPad without the better screen. Though Having seen people with Nexus 7s they are significantly more portable so I might buy one eventually.
I could see myself buying it with A6+Retina at the current price and even a bit more, but for the warmed-over iPad, $329 is a bit much.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 25, 2012, 07:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
I wasn't trying to show off. If I would not be using the iPad for business the way I do I'd do just what you're doing.
I didn't mean you were showing off - Seriously, that is networking like a boss. You get more out of the ipad than just a surfing machine. I have used it for work while travelling, but not much production.

It just highlights the different use cases and why they have different models to suit.

I had better wifi coverage on vacation (hotels, hotspots) than Virgin Mobile did cellular service.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 25, 2012, 09:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
I own the business, so the money comes out of my pocket.
Just because somebody doesn't share your opinion doesn't mean they are dumb. It just means that, perhaps, their needs differ from yours. For me the convenience of carrying an "always on" device with me without having to worry about additional hardware/chargers/will it stay connected issues is worth the premium.
In business, an iPad is a tool that helps me to create profits. A couple of weeks ago I was in a position where I wanted to show a person I had just met at an event a project we were working on. Pulled out the iPad, opened dropbox, pulled up the relevant files and shared them right there and then, with zero hassle. The guy actually commented on how professional this made our company look. It lead to a $30,000 contract.
In that context, who cares about $130? Not me.

This is the justification that buyers and sellers have always used for these pricing strategies, essentially its like saying they deserve to get a share of your "profits" if you use their product to make money. Personally I don't see what gives them that right, but in many cases its easy enough to let it slide. In this case, Apple is charging $130 for hardware that can be purchased for $30 from other retailers (not manufacturer, retailers) and this on top of a device that was already making a profit of $100 and 40% at the very least.

Its always going to be the case that people dealing with $30K contracts can afford to splash $130 on what is essentially a bit a of luxury, I just think Apple is taking the p*** in this particular case.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Phileas
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Oct 26, 2012, 09:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post

Its always going to be the case that people dealing with $30K contracts can afford to splash $130 on what is essentially a bit a of luxury, I just think Apple is taking the p*** in this particular case.
I don't think you understand. This isn't about luxury, this is about having the tools at my disposal that allow me to do my job better. The financial outlay required is minuscule when compared to the potential upside.

I don't care if Apple gets the hardware for free. I am not buying a box, or an antenna. I am not buying hardware. I am buying what the hardware allows me to do, improved job performance. $130 is a steal for that. I'd pay double, if I had to.
     
SSharon
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Oct 26, 2012, 10:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
I suspect that the 6th Gen iPod costs as it does to avoid using up all the parts, but Apple doesn't usually drop prices significantly for no reason. They did for the iPhone, but that was the exception (and they paid back to those who bought it for more).
Wasn't the price drop on the initial iPhone due to subsidies by ATT? I remember buying my iPhone for $600 and then getting $100 back, but I don't remember what the price dropped to then. The real price drop was when ATT subsidized the phone and it went down to $200, but the data plan went up to $30.

Quite frankly, I was happy paying $600 and the cheaper data plan since I came out ahead that way (I used the original iPhone for 3 years until I got the 4). Right now there is no incentive to hold onto older hardware because of course the carriers want you to sign a new contract. Maybe they would hold onto more customers if after the 2 years was up the data plan went back down to $20? One can dream...
AT&T iPhone 5S and 6; 13" MBP; MDD G4.
     
P
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Oct 26, 2012, 11:59 AM
 
The iPhone dropped to $400. It was never revealed exactly why or how that was financed, but Apple was clearly experimenting with revenue streams.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
Laminar
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Oct 26, 2012, 04:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
This is the justification that buyers and sellers have always used for these pricing strategies, essentially its like saying they deserve to get a share of your "profits" if you use their product to make money. Personally I don't see what gives them that right, but in many cases its easy enough to let it slide. In this case, Apple is charging $130 for hardware that can be purchased for $30 from other retailers (not manufacturer, retailers) and this on top of a device that was already making a profit of $100 and 40% at the very least.
Its always going to be the case that people dealing with $30K contracts can afford to splash $130 on what is essentially a bit a of luxury, I just think Apple is taking the p*** in this particular case.
You seem to believe that a product should be priced according to what it costs to produce instead of what someone is willing to pay for it. This isn't how anything resembling a free market works.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Oct 26, 2012, 04:14 PM
 
SOCIALIST!
     
 
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