[The Final Dakar]

That's not answering the question, that's throwing a wall of text at me, most of which is the "see what sticks" approach of denial.

I'm asking a very clear question: If the goal of both NFP and the pill are the same, and you claim they are equally effective at that goal of "closing the marital act to life", on what ground are artificial means disqualified?

The pill being a carcinogen is a red herring as that is only a recent claim and cannot be said for other means of birth control which the church also disapproves of.

[Chongo]

You asked what the difference was. I provided an article from a Catholic doctor on what the difference was. NFP does nothing to prevent conception. Barriers and chemicals do that. In the case of some BC, conception can still occur, but it changes the uterine wall so implantation can not occur. I believe those are amoung the ones that are classified as abortifacient.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

You asked what the difference was. I provided an article from a Catholic doctor on what the difference was. NFP does nothing to prevent conception. Barriers and chemicals do that. In the case of some BC, conception can still occur, but it changes the uterine wall so implantation can not occur. I believe those are amoung the ones that are classified as abortifacient.

I'm sorry ... but can we dispense with the BS please?

The fundamental reason for the Church's objection to contraception is the antiquated notion that the only "legitimate" purpose for human sexual activity is procreation. And procreation was only sanctioned by the Church within the institution of marriage. Hence the concept of "bastards" or "illegitimate children". For centuries the Church taught that married couples should refrain from sexual intercourse for the purpose of pleasure alone. IOW, if they weren't actively trying to procreate then they should be celibate. Of course, that is diametrically opposed to human nature which is why it was one of the most spectacularly ineffective religious admonitions in the history of mankind. This newfangled advocacy of NFP is only a slightly more updated version of the same antiquated notion. A doctrine that recognizes the futility of telling married couples that the only time they should have sex is when they are trying to conceive. So they should at least be "open" to conception.

So to piggyback on Dakar's question, the issue here is that the Church is still hanging on to the antiquated notion that the only "legitimate" purpose for sex is procreation. Human nature notwithstanding. So if a Married Couple A routinely has sex and uses artificial birth control whereas Married Couple B routinely has sex and uses NFP ... and both are successfully preventing procreation .... then WTF is the difference since they are both f*cking for fun?

OAW

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

You asked what the difference was. I provided an article from a Catholic doctor on what the difference was.

Any doctor can claim they're Catholic. But seriously, I wanna hear it from the church. Or your interpretation thereof.

Originally Posted by Chongo 

NFP does nothing to prevent conception. Barriers and chemicals do that.

You claimed they were equally effective. If that's the case, what's left is a semantic difference.

Originally Posted by Chongo 

In the case of some BC, conception can still occur, but it changes the uterine wall so implantation can not occur.

As I noted before, you can get pregnant while on the pill.

Originally Posted by Chongo 

I believe those are amoung the ones that are classified as abortifacient.

I don't believe this is of any relevance, as you comment on barriers which I assume are diaphragms and condoms, which are quite clearly not abortifacient but also frowned upon.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by OAW 

So if a Married Couple A routinely has sex and uses artificial birth control whereas Married Couple B routinely has sex and uses NFP ... and both are successfully preventing procreation .... then WTF is the difference since they are both f*cking for fun?

Effort, I suppose.

[The Final Dakar]

Here's a thought: Is a vasectomy kosher with the church? They are reversible, after all, therefore not closing the door to life as it were (and not 100% effective, either).

[subego]

Nope.

In fact, if you convert after having had one, you're supposed to get it reversed if it's within your financial means.

[The Final Dakar]

And if a woman has her tubes tied?

[subego]

She had better pack SPF 1000 sunblock for the afterlife.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

She had better pack SPF 1000 sunblock for the afterlife.

That made me grin.

Given the way the modern church handles matters, I suppose all it would take to make procreation less scared is for an epidemic of overpopulation.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Any doctor can claim they're Catholic. But seriously, I wanna hear it from the church. Or your interpretation thereof.

You wanted to hear from the Church:

Luke 10:16
16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Humanae Vitae - Encyclical Letter of His Holiness Paul VI on the regulation of birth, 25 July 1968

You will have to go and read it there since it is too long to post here.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Despite Andi's frustration, NFP when properly taught and practiced is just as effecticive as the pill, and without the side affects.

I'd loooove to see a study showing that looking at a calendar and guessing is universally as effective as an IUD.

edit: The CDC has some pretty dismal failure rates for general "natural family planning". Interestingly enough, perfectly-practiced symptoms-based "fertility awareness" practiced by monitoring basal body temperature and cervical mucus (NOT calendar-based planning) has the same failure rate as a copper IUD, but ends up being several times worse in typical-use scenarios and far worse than hormone-based IUDs and Implanon. Calendar-based (Standard Days, etc.) are awful, even when practiced perfectly.

And that assumes you're okay with a method that doesn't let you have sex for ~9 days a month. Though that should be easy because you do the Biblical thing and refrain from touching your menstruating wife while she's ceremonially unclean.

[Chongo]

Part I

ENCYCLICAL LETTER
HUMANAE VITAE
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
PAUL VI
TO HIS VENERABLE BROTHERS
THE PATRIARCHS, ARCHBISHOPS, BISHOPS
AND OTHER LOCAL ORDINARIES
IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE,
TO THE CLERGY AND FAITHFUL OF THE WHOLE CATHOLIC WORLD, AND TO ALL MEN OF GOOD WILL,
ON THE REGULATION OF BIRTH




Honored Brothers and Dear Sons,
Health and Apostolic Benediction.

The transmission of human life is a most serious role in which married people collaborate freely and responsibly with God the Creator. It has always been a source of great joy to them, even though it sometimes entails many difficulties and hardships.

The fulfillment of this duty has always posed problems to the conscience of married people, but the recent course of human society and the concomitant changes have provoked new questions. The Church cannot ignore these questions, for they concern matters intimately connected with the life and happiness of human beings.


I.
PROBLEM AND COMPETENCY
OF THE MAGISTERIUM

2. The changes that have taken place are of considerable importance and varied in nature. In the first place there is the rapid increase in population which has made many fear that world population is going to grow faster than available resources, with the consequence that many families and developing countries would be faced with greater hardships. This can easily induce public authorities to be tempted to take even harsher measures to avert this danger. There is also the fact that not only working and housing conditions but the greater demands made both in the economic and educational field pose a living situation in which it is frequently difficult these days to provide properly for a large family.

Also noteworthy is a new understanding of the dignity of woman and her place in society, of the value of conjugal love in marriage and the relationship of conjugal acts to this love.

But the most remarkable development of all is to be seen in man's stupendous progress in the domination and rational organization of the forces of nature to the point that he is endeavoring to extend this control over every aspect of his own life—over his body, over his mind and emotions, over his social life, and even over the laws that regulate the transmission of life.


New Questions

3. This new state of things gives rise to new questions. Granted the conditions of life today and taking into account the relevance of married love to the harmony and mutual fidelity of husband and wife, would it not be right to review the moral norms in force till now, especially when it is felt that these can be observed only with the gravest difficulty, sometimes only by heroic effort?

Moreover, if one were to apply here the so called principle of totality, could it not be accepted that the intention to have a less prolific but more rationally planned family might transform an action which renders natural processes infertile into a licit and provident control of birth? Could it not be admitted, in other words, that procreative finality applies to the totality of married life rather than to each single act? A further question is whether, because people are more conscious today of their responsibilities, the time has not come when the transmission of life should be regulated by their intelligence and will rather than through the specific rhythms of their own bodies.


Interpreting the Moral Law

4. This kind of question requires from the teaching authority of the Church a new and deeper reflection on the principles of the moral teaching on marriage—a teaching which is based on the natural law as illuminated and enriched by divine Revelation.

No member of the faithful could possibly deny that the Church is competent in her magisterium to interpret the natural moral law. It is in fact indisputable, as Our predecessors have many times declared, (l) that Jesus Christ, when He communicated His divine power to Peter and the other Apostles and sent them to teach all nations His commandments, (2) constituted them as the authentic guardians and interpreters of the whole moral law, not only, that is, of the law of the Gospel but also of the natural law. For the natural law, too, declares the will of God, and its faithful observance is necessary for men's eternal salvation. (3)

In carrying out this mandate, the Church has always issued appropriate documents on the nature of marriage, the correct use of conjugal rights, and the duties of spouses. These documents have been more copious in recent times. (4)


Special Studies

5. The consciousness of the same responsibility induced Us to confirm and expand the commission set up by Our predecessor Pope John XXIII, of happy memory, in March, 1963. This commission included married couples as well as many experts in the various fields pertinent to these questions. Its task was to examine views and opinions concerning married life, and especially on the correct regulation of births; and it was also to provide the teaching authority of the Church with such evidence as would enable it to give an apt reply in this matter, which not only the faithful but also the rest of the world were waiting for. (5)

When the evidence of the experts had been received, as well as the opinions and advice of a considerable number of Our brethren in the episcopate—some of whom sent their views spontaneously, while others were requested by Us to do so—We were in a position to weigh with more precision all the aspects of this complex subject. Hence We are deeply grateful to all those concerned.


The Magisterium's Reply

6. However, the conclusions arrived at by the commission could not be considered by Us as definitive and absolutely certain, dispensing Us from the duty of examining personally this serious question. This was all the more necessary because, within the commission itself, there was not complete agreement concerning the moral norms to be proposed, and especially because certain approaches and criteria for a solution to this question had emerged which were at variance with the moral doctrine on marriage constantly taught by the magisterium of the Church.

Consequently, now that We have sifted carefully the evidence sent to Us and intently studied the whole matter, as well as prayed constantly to God, We, by virtue of the mandate entrusted to Us by Christ, intend to give Our reply to this series of grave questions.

[Chongo]

Part II

II.
DOCTRINAL PRINCIPLES

7. The question of human procreation, like every other question which touches human life, involves more than the limited aspects specific to such disciplines as biology, psychology, demography or sociology. It is the whole man and the whole mission to which he is called that must be considered: both its natural, earthly aspects and its supernatural, eternal aspects. And since in the attempt to justify artificial methods of birth control many appeal to the demands of married love or of responsible parenthood, these two important realities of married life must be accurately defined and analyzed. This is what We mean to do, with special reference to what the Second Vatican Council taught with the highest authority in its Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the World of Today.


God's Loving Design

8. Married love particularly reveals its true nature and nobility when we realize that it takes its origin from God, who "is love," (6) the Father "from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named." (7)

Marriage, then, is far from being the effect of chance or the result of the blind evolution of natural forces. It is in reality the wise and provident institution of God the Creator, whose purpose was to effect in man His loving design. As a consequence, husband and wife, through that mutual gift of themselves, which is specific and exclusive to them alone, develop that union of two persons in which they perfect one another, cooperating with God in the generation and rearing of new lives.

The marriage of those who have been baptized is, in addition, invested with the dignity of a sacramental sign of grace, for it represents the union of Christ and His Church.


Married Love

9. In the light of these facts the characteristic features and exigencies of married love are clearly indicated, and it is of the highest importance to evaluate them exactly.

This love is above all fully human, a compound of sense and spirit. It is not, then, merely a question of natural instinct or emotional drive. It is also, and above all, an act of the free will, whose trust is such that it is meant not only to survive the joys and sorrows of daily life, but also to grow, so that husband and wife become in a way one heart and one soul, and together attain their human fulfillment.

It is a love which is total—that very special form of personal friendship in which husband and wife generously share everything, allowing no unreasonable exceptions and not thinking solely of their own convenience. Whoever really loves his partner loves not only for what he receives, but loves that partner for the partner's own sake, content to be able to enrich the other with the gift of himself.

Married love is also faithful and exclusive of all other, and this until death. This is how husband and wife understood it on the day on which, fully aware of what they were doing, they freely vowed themselves to one another in marriage. Though this fidelity of husband and wife sometimes presents difficulties, no one has the right to assert that it is impossible; it is, on the contrary, always honorable and meritorious. The example of countless married couples proves not only that fidelity is in accord with the nature of marriage, but also that it is the source of profound and enduring happiness.

Finally, this love is fecund. It is not confined wholly to the loving interchange of husband and wife; it also contrives to go beyond this to bring new life into being. "Marriage and conjugal love are by their nature ordained toward the procreation and education of children. Children are really the supreme gift of marriage and contribute in the highest degree to their parents' welfare." (8)


Responsible Parenthood

10. Married love, therefore, requires of husband and wife the full awareness of their obligations in the matter of responsible parenthood, which today, rightly enough, is much insisted upon, but which at the same time should be rightly understood. Thus, we do well to consider responsible parenthood in the light of its varied legitimate and interrelated aspects.

With regard to the biological processes, responsible parenthood means an awareness of, and respect for, their proper functions. In the procreative faculty the human mind discerns biological laws that apply to the human person. (9)

With regard to man's innate drives and emotions, responsible parenthood means that man's reason and will must exert control over them.

With regard to physical, economic, psychological and social conditions, responsible parenthood is exercised by those who prudently and generously decide to have more children, and by those who, for serious reasons and with due respect to moral precepts, decide not to have additional children for either a certain or an indefinite period of time.

Responsible parenthood, as we use the term here, has one further essential aspect of paramount importance. It concerns the objective moral order which was established by God, and of which a right conscience is the true interpreter. In a word, the exercise of responsible parenthood requires that husband and wife, keeping a right order of priorities, recognize their own duties toward God, themselves, their families and human society.

From this it follows that they are not free to act as they choose in the service of transmitting life, as if it were wholly up to them to decide what is the right course to follow. On the contrary, they are bound to ensure that what they do corresponds to the will of God the Creator. The very nature of marriage and its use makes His will clear, while the constant teaching of the Church spells it out. (10)


Observing the Natural Law

11. The sexual activity, in which husband and wife are intimately and chastely united with one another, through which human life is transmitted, is, as the recent Council recalled, "noble and worthy.'' (11) It does not, moreover, cease to be legitimate even when, for reasons independent of their will, it is foreseen to be infertile. For its natural adaptation to the expression and strengthening of the union of husband and wife is not thereby suppressed. The fact is, as experience shows, that new life is not the result of each and every act of sexual intercourse. God has wisely ordered laws of nature and the incidence of fertility in such a way that successive births are already naturally spaced through the inherent operation of these laws. The Church, nevertheless, in urging men to the observance of the precepts of the natural law, which it interprets by its constant doctrine, teaches that each and every marital act must of necessity retain its intrinsic relationship to the procreation of human life. (12)


Union and Procreation

12. This particular doctrine, often expounded by the magisterium of the Church, is based on the inseparable connection, established by God, which man on his own initiative may not break, between the unitive significance and the procreative significance which are both inherent to the marriage act.

The reason is that the fundamental nature of the marriage act, while uniting husband and wife in the closest intimacy, also renders them capable of generating new life—and this as a result of laws written into the actual nature of man and of woman. And if each of these essential qualities, the unitive and the procreative, is preserved, the use of marriage fully retains its sense of true mutual love and its ordination to the supreme responsibility of parenthood to which man is called. We believe that our contemporaries are particularly capable of seeing that this teaching is in harmony with human reason.


Faithfulness to God's Design

13. Men rightly observe that a conjugal act imposed on one's partner without regard to his or her condition or personal and reasonable wishes in the matter, is no true act of love, and therefore offends the moral order in its particular application to the intimate relationship of husband and wife. If they further reflect, they must also recognize that an act of mutual love which impairs the capacity to transmit life which God the Creator, through specific laws, has built into it, frustrates His design which constitutes the norm of marriage, and contradicts the will of the Author of life. Hence to use this divine gift while depriving it, even if only partially, of its meaning and purpose, is equally repugnant to the nature of man and of woman, and is consequently in opposition to the plan of God and His holy will. But to experience the gift of married love while respecting the laws of conception is to acknowledge that one is not the master of the sources of life but rather the minister of the design established by the Creator. Just as man does not have unlimited dominion over his body in general, so also, and with more particular reason, he has no such dominion over his specifically sexual faculties, for these are concerned by their very nature with the generation of life, of which God is the source. "Human life is sacred—all men must recognize that fact," Our predecessor Pope John XXIII recalled. "From its very inception it reveals the creating hand of God." (13)


Unlawful Birth Control Methods

14. Therefore We base Our words on the first principles of a human and Christian doctrine of marriage when We are obliged once more to declare that the direct interruption of the generative process already begun and, above all, all direct abortion, even for therapeutic reasons, are to be absolutely excluded as lawful means of regulating the number of children. (14) Equally to be condemned, as the magisterium of the Church has affirmed on many occasions, is direct sterilization, whether of the man or of the woman, whether permanent or temporary. (15)

Similarly excluded is any action which either before, at the moment of, or after sexual intercourse, is specifically intended to prevent procreation—whether as an end or as a means. (16)

Neither is it valid to argue, as a justification for sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive, that a lesser evil is to be preferred to a greater one, or that such intercourse would merge with procreative acts of past and future to form a single entity, and so be qualified by exactly the same moral goodness as these. Though it is true that sometimes it is lawful to tolerate a lesser moral evil in order to avoid a greater evil or in order to promote a greater good," it is never lawful, even for the gravest reasons, to do evil that good may come of it (18)—in other words, to intend directly something which of its very nature contradicts the moral order, and which must therefore be judged unworthy of man, even though the intention is to protect or promote the welfare of an individual, of a family or of society in general. Consequently, it is a serious error to think that a whole married life of otherwise normal relations can justify sexual intercourse which is deliberately contraceptive and so intrinsically wrong.


Lawful Therapeutic Means

15. On the other hand, the Church does not consider at all illicit the use of those therapeutic means necessary to cure bodily diseases, even if a foreseeable impediment to procreation should result there from—provided such impediment is not directly intended for any motive whatsoever. (19)


Recourse to Infertile Periods

16. Now as We noted earlier (no. 3), some people today raise the objection against this particular doctrine of the Church concerning the moral laws governing marriage, that human intelligence has both the right and responsibility to control those forces of irrational nature which come within its ambit and to direct them toward ends beneficial to man. Others ask on the same point whether it is not reasonable in so many cases to use artificial birth control if by so doing the harmony and peace of a family are better served and more suitable conditions are provided for the education of children already born. To this question We must give a clear reply. The Church is the first to praise and commend the application of human intelligence to an activity in which a rational creature such as man is so closely associated with his Creator. But she affirms that this must be done within the limits of the order of reality established by God.

If therefore there are well-grounded reasons for spacing births, arising from the physical or psychological condition of husband or wife, or from external circumstances, the Church teaches that married people may then take advantage of the natural cycles immanent in the reproductive system and engage in marital intercourse only during those times that are infertile, thus controlling birth in a way which does not in the least offend the moral principles which We have just explained. (20)

Neither the Church nor her doctrine is inconsistent when she considers it lawful for married people to take advantage of the infertile period but condemns as always unlawful the use of means which directly prevent conception, even when the reasons given for the later practice may appear to be upright and serious. In reality, these two cases are completely different. In the former the married couple rightly use a faculty provided them by nature. In the later they obstruct the natural development of the generative process. It cannot be denied that in each case the married couple, for acceptable reasons, are both perfectly clear in their intention to avoid children and wish to make sure that none will result. But it is equally true that it is exclusively in the former case that husband and wife are ready to abstain from intercourse during the fertile period as often as for reasonable motives the birth of another child is not desirable. And when the infertile period recurs, they use their married intimacy to express their mutual love and safeguard their fidelity toward one another. In doing this they certainly give proof of a true and authentic love.


Consequences of Artificial Methods

17. Responsible men can become more deeply convinced of the truth of the doctrine laid down by the Church on this issue if they reflect on the consequences of methods and plans for artificial birth control. Let them first consider how easily this course of action could open wide the way for marital infidelity and a general lowering of moral standards. Not much experience is needed to be fully aware of human weakness and to understand that human beings—and especially the young, who are so exposed to temptation—need incentives to keep the moral law, and it is an evil thing to make it easy for them to break that law. Another effect that gives cause for alarm is that a man who grows accustomed to the use of contraceptive methods may forget the reverence due to a woman, and, disregarding her physical and emotional equilibrium, reduce her to being a mere instrument for the satisfaction of his own desires, no longer considering her as his partner whom he should surround with care and affection.

Finally, careful consideration should be given to the danger of this power passing into the hands of those public authorities who care little for the precepts of the moral law. Who will blame a government which in its attempt to resolve the problems affecting an entire country resorts to the same measures as are regarded as lawful by married people in the solution of a particular family difficulty? Who will prevent public authorities from favoring those contraceptive methods which they consider more effective? Should they regard this as necessary, they may even impose their use on everyone. It could well happen, therefore, that when people, either individually or in family or social life, experience the inherent difficulties of the divine law and are determined to avoid them, they may give into the hands of public authorities the power to intervene in the most personal and intimate responsibility of husband and wife.


Limits to Man's Power

Consequently, unless we are willing that the responsibility of procreating life should be left to the arbitrary decision of men, we must accept that there are certain limits, beyond which it is wrong to go, to the power of man over his own body and its natural functions—limits, let it be said, which no one, whether as a private individual or as a public authority, can lawfully exceed. These limits are expressly imposed because of the reverence due to the whole human organism and its natural functions, in the light of the principles We stated earlier, and in accordance with a correct understanding of the "principle of totality" enunciated by Our predecessor Pope Pius XII. (21)


Concern of the Church

18. It is to be anticipated that perhaps not everyone will easily accept this particular teaching. There is too much clamorous outcry against the voice of the Church, and this is intensified by modern means of communication. But it comes as no surprise to the Church that she, no less than her divine Founder, is destined to be a "sign of contradiction." (22) She does not, because of this, evade the duty imposed on her of proclaiming humbly but firmly the entire moral law, both natural and evangelical.

Since the Church did not make either of these laws, she cannot be their arbiter—only their guardian and interpreter. It could never be right for her to declare lawful what is in fact unlawful, since that, by its very nature, is always opposed to the true good of man.

In preserving intact the whole moral law of marriage, the Church is convinced that she is contributing to the creation of a truly human civilization. She urges man not to betray his personal responsibilities by putting all his faith in technical expedients. In this way she defends the dignity of husband and wife. This course of action shows that the Church, loyal to the example and teaching of the divine Savior, is sincere and unselfish in her regard for men whom she strives to help even now during this earthly pilgrimage "to share God's life as sons of the living God, the Father of all men." (23)

[Chongo]

Part III

III.
PASTORAL DIRECTIVES

19. Our words would not be an adequate expression of the thought and solicitude of the Church, Mother and Teacher of all peoples, if, after having recalled men to the observance and respect of the divine law regarding matrimony, they did not also support mankind in the honest regulation of birth amid the difficult conditions which today afflict families and peoples. The Church, in fact, cannot act differently toward men than did the Redeemer. She knows their weaknesses, she has compassion on the multitude, she welcomes sinners. But at the same time she cannot do otherwise than teach the law. For it is in fact the law of human life restored to its native truth and guided by the Spirit of God. (24) Observing the Divine Law.

20. The teaching of the Church regarding the proper regulation of birth is a promulgation of the law of God Himself. And yet there is no doubt that to many it will appear not merely difficult but even impossible to observe. Now it is true that like all good things which are outstanding for their nobility and for the benefits which they confer on men, so this law demands from individual men and women, from families and from human society, a resolute purpose and great endurance. Indeed it cannot be observed unless God comes to their help with the grace by which the goodwill of men is sustained and strengthened. But to those who consider this matter diligently it will indeed be evident that this endurance enhances man's dignity and confers benefits on human society.


Value of Self-Discipline

21. The right and lawful ordering of birth demands, first of all, that spouses fully recognize and value the true blessings of family life and that they acquire complete mastery over themselves and their emotions. For if with the aid of reason and of free will they are to control their natural drives, there can be no doubt at all of the need for self-denial. Only then will the expression of love, essential to married life, conform to right order. This is especially clear in the practice of periodic continence. Self-discipline of this kind is a shining witness to the chastity of husband and wife and, far from being a hindrance to their love of one another, transforms it by giving it a more truly human character. And if this self-discipline does demand that they persevere in their purpose and efforts, it has at the same time the salutary effect of enabling husband and wife to develop to their personalities and to be enriched with spiritual blessings. For it brings to family life abundant fruits of tranquility and peace. It helps in solving difficulties of other kinds. It fosters in husband and wife thoughtfulness and loving consideration for one another. It helps them to repel inordinate self-love, which is the opposite of charity. It arouses in them a consciousness of their responsibilities. And finally, it confers upon parents a deeper and more effective influence in the education of their children. As their children grow up, they develop a right sense of values and achieve a serene and harmonious use of their mental and physical powers.


Promotion of Chastity

22. We take this opportunity to address those who are engaged in education and all those whose right and duty it is to provide for the common good of human society. We would call their attention to the need to create an atmosphere favorable to the growth of chastity so that true liberty may prevail over license and the norms of the moral law may be fully safeguarded.

Everything therefore in the modern means of social communication which arouses men's baser passions and encourages low moral standards, as well as every obscenity in the written word and every form of indecency on the stage and screen, should be condemned publicly and unanimously by all those who have at heart the advance of civilization and the safeguarding of the outstanding values of the human spirit. It is quite absurd to defend this kind of depravity in the name of art or culture (25) or by pleading the liberty which may be allowed in this field by the public authorities.


Appeal to Public Authorities

23. And now We wish to speak to rulers of nations. To you most of all is committed the responsibility of safeguarding the common good. You can contribute so much to the preservation of morals. We beg of you, never allow the morals of your peoples to be undermined. The family is the primary unit in the state; do not tolerate any legislation which would introduce into the family those practices which are opposed to the natural law of God. For there are other ways by which a government can and should solve the population problem—that is to say by enacting laws which will assist families and by educating the people wisely so that the moral law and the freedom of the citizens are both safeguarded.


Seeking True Solutions

We are fully aware of the difficulties confronting the public authorities in this matter, especially in the developing countries. In fact, We had in mind the justifiable anxieties which weigh upon them when We published Our encyclical letter Populorum Progressio. But now We join Our voice to that of Our predecessor John XXIII of venerable memory, and We make Our own his words: "No statement of the problem and no solution to it is acceptable which does violence to man's essential dignity; those who propose such solutions base them on an utterly materialistic conception of man himself and his life. The only possible solution to this question is one which envisages the social and economic progress both of individuals and of the whole of human society, and which respects and promotes true human values." (26) No one can, without being grossly unfair, make divine Providence responsible for what clearly seems to be the result of misguided governmental policies, of an insufficient sense of social justice, of a selfish accumulation of material goods, and finally of a culpable failure to undertake those initiatives and responsibilities which would raise the standard of living of peoples and their children. (27) If only all governments which were able would do what some are already doing so nobly, and bestir themselves to renew their efforts and their undertakings! There must be no relaxation in the programs of mutual aid between all the branches of the great human family. Here We believe an almost limitless field lies open for the activities of the great international institutions.


To Scientists

24. Our next appeal is to men of science. These can "considerably advance the welfare of marriage and the family and also peace of conscience, if by pooling their efforts they strive to elucidate more thoroughly the conditions favorable to a proper regulation of births." (28) It is supremely desirable, and this was also the mind of Pius XII, that medical science should by the study of natural rhythms succeed in determining a sufficiently secure basis for the chaste limitation of offspring. (29) In this way scientists, especially those who are Catholics, will by their research establish the truth of the Church's claim that "there can be no contradiction between two divine laws—that which governs the transmitting of life and that which governs the fostering of married love." (30)

[Chongo]

Conclusion of Part III

To Christian Couples

25. And now We turn in a special way to Our own sons and daughters, to those most of all whom God calls to serve Him in the state of marriage. While the Church does indeed hand on to her children the inviolable conditions laid down by God's law, she is also the herald of salvation and through the sacraments she flings wide open the channels of grace through which man is made a new creature responding in charity and true freedom to the design of his Creator and Savior, experiencing too the sweetness of the yoke of Christ. (31)

In humble obedience then to her voice, let Christian husbands and wives be mindful of their vocation to the Christian life, a vocation which, deriving from their Baptism, has been confirmed anew and made more explicit by the Sacrament of Matrimony. For by this sacrament they are strengthened and, one might almost say, consecrated to the faithful fulfillment of their duties. Thus will they realize to the full their calling and bear witness as becomes them, to Christ before the world. (32) For the Lord has entrusted to them the task of making visible to men and women the holiness and joy of the law which united inseparably their love for one another and the cooperation they give to God's love, God who is the Author of human life.

We have no wish at all to pass over in silence the difficulties, at times very great, which beset the lives of Christian married couples. For them, as indeed for every one of us, "the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life." (33) Nevertheless it is precisely the hope of that life which, like a brightly burning torch, lights up their journey, as, strong in spirit, they strive to live "sober, upright and godly lives in this world," (34) knowing for sure that "the form of this world is passing away." (35)


Recourse to God

For this reason husbands and wives should take up the burden appointed to them, willingly, in the strength of faith and of that hope which "does not disappoint us, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us ~}36 Then let them implore the help of God with unremitting prayer and, most of all, let them draw grace and charity from that unfailing fount which is the Eucharist. If, however, sin still exercises its hold over them, they are not to lose heart. Rather must they, humble and persevering, have recourse to the mercy of God, abundantly bestowed in the Sacrament of Penance. In this way, for sure, they will be able to reach that perfection of married life which the Apostle sets out in these words: "Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church. . . Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the Church. . . This is a great mystery, and I mean in reference to Christ and the Church; however, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband." (37)


Family Apostolate

26. Among the fruits that ripen if the law of God be resolutely obeyed, the most precious is certainly this, that married couples themselves will often desire to communicate their own experience to others. Thus it comes about that in the fullness of the lay vocation will be included a novel and outstanding form of the apostolate by which, like ministering to like, married couples themselves by the leadership they offer will become apostles to other married couples. And surely among all the forms of the Christian apostolate it is hard to think of one more opportune for the present time. (38)


To Doctors and Nurses

27. Likewise we hold in the highest esteem those doctors and members of the nursing profession who, in the exercise of their calling, endeavor to fulfill the demands of their Christian vocation before any merely human interest. Let them therefore continue constant in their resolution always to support those lines of action which accord with faith and with right reason. And let them strive to win agreement and support for these policies among their professional colleagues. Moreover, they should regard it as an essential part of their skill to make themselves fully proficient in this difficult field of medical knowledge. For then, when married couples ask for their advice, they may be in a position to give them right counsel and to point them in the proper direction. Married couples have a right to expect this much from them.


To Priests

28. And now, beloved sons, you who are priests, you who in virtue of your sacred office act as counselors and spiritual leaders both of individual men and women and of families—We turn to you filled with great confidence. For it is your principal duty—We are speaking especially to you who teach moral theology—to spell out clearly and completely the Church's teaching on marriage. In the performance of your ministry you must be the first to give an example of that sincere obedience, inward as well as outward, which is due to the magisterium of the Church. For, as you know, the pastors of the Church enjoy a special light of the Holy Spirit in teaching the truth. (39) And this, rather than the arguments they put forward, is why you are bound to such obedience. Nor will it escape you that if men's peace of soul and the unity of the Christian people are to be preserved, then it is of the utmost importance that in moral as well as in dogmatic theology all should obey the magisterium of the Church and should speak as with one voice. Therefore We make Our own the anxious words of the great Apostle Paul and with all Our heart We renew Our appeal to you: "I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment." (40)


Christian Compassion

29. Now it is an outstanding manifestation of charity toward souls to omit nothing from the saving doctrine of Christ; but this must always be joined with tolerance and charity, as Christ Himself showed in His conversations and dealings with men. For when He came, not to judge, but to save the world, (41) was He not bitterly severe toward sin, but patient and abounding in mercy toward sinners?

Husbands and wives, therefore, when deeply distressed by reason of the difficulties of their life, must find stamped in the heart and voice of their priest the likeness of the voice and the love of our Redeemer.

So speak with full confidence, beloved sons, convinced that while the Holy Spirit of God is present to the magisterium proclaiming sound doctrine, He also illumines from within the hearts of the faithful and invites their assent. Teach married couples the necessary way of prayer and prepare them to approach more often with great faith the Sacraments of the Eucharist and of Penance. Let them never lose heart because of their weakness.


To Bishops

30. And now as We come to the end of this encyclical letter, We turn Our mind to you, reverently and lovingly, beloved and venerable brothers in the episcopate, with whom We share more closely the care of the spiritual good of the People of God. For We invite all of you, We implore you, to give a lead to your priests who assist you in the sacred ministry, and to the faithful of your dioceses, and to devote yourselves with all zeal and without delay to safeguarding the holiness of marriage, in order to guide married life to its full human and Christian perfection. Consider this mission as one of your most urgent responsibilities at the present time. As you well know, it calls for concerted pastoral action in every field of human diligence, economic, cultural and social. If simultaneous progress is made in these various fields, then the intimate life of parents and children in the family will be rendered not only more tolerable, but easier and more joyful. And life together in human society will be enriched with fraternal charity and made more stable with true peace when God's design which He conceived for the world is faithfully followed.


A Great Work

31. Venerable brothers, beloved sons, all men of good will, great indeed is the work of education, of progress and of charity to which We now summon all of you. And this We do relying on the unshakable teaching of the Church, which teaching Peter's successor together with his brothers in the Catholic episcopate faithfully guards and interprets. And We are convinced that this truly great work will bring blessings both on the world and on the Church. For man cannot attain that true happiness for which he yearns with all the strength of his spirit, unless he keeps the laws which the Most High God has engraved in his very nature. These laws must be wisely and lovingly observed. On this great work, on all of you and especially on married couples, We implore from the God of all holiness and pity an abundance of heavenly grace as a pledge of which We gladly bestow Our apostolic blessing.

Given at St. Peter's, Rome, on the 25th day of July, the feast of St. James the Apostle, in the year 1968, the sixth of Our pontificate.

PAUL VI

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTES


LATIN TEXT: Acta Apostolicae Sedis, 60 (1968), 481-503.

ENGLISH TRANSLATION: The Pope Speaks, 13 (Fall. 1969), 329-46.

REFERENCES:

(1) See Pius IX, encyc. letter Oui pluribus: Pii IX P.M. Acta, 1, pp. 9-10; St. Pius X encyc. letter Singulari quadam: AAS 4 (1912), 658; Pius XI, encyc.letter Casti connubii: AAS 22 (1930), 579-581; Pius XII, address Magnificate Dominum to the episcopate of the Catholic World: AAS 46 (1954), 671-672; John XXIII, encyc. letter Mater et Magistra: AAS 53 (1961), 457.

(2) See Mt 28. 18-19.

(3) See Mt 7. 21.

(4) See Council of Trent Roman Catechism, Part II, ch. 8; Leo XIII, encyc.letter Arcanum: Acta Leonis XIII, 2 (1880), 26-29; Pius XI, encyc.letter Divini illius Magistri: AAS 22 (1930), 58-61; encyc. letter Casti connubii: AAS 22 (1930), 545-546; Pius XII, Address to Italian Medico-Biological Union of St. Luke: Discorsi e radiomessaggi di Pio XII, VI, 191-192; to Italian Association of Catholic Midwives: AAS 43 (1951), 835-854; to the association known as the Family Campaign, and other family associations: AAS 43 (1951), 857-859; to 7th congress of International Society of Hematology: AAS 50 (1958), 734-735 [TPS VI, 394-395]; John XXIII, encyc.letter Mater et Magistra: AAS 53 (1961), 446-447 [TPS VII, 330-331]; Second Vatican Council, Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the World of Today, nos. 47-52: AAS 58 (1966), 1067-1074 [TPS XI, 289-295]; Code of Canon Law, canons 1067, 1068 §1, canon 1076, §§1-2.

(5) See Paul VI, Address to Sacred College of Cardinals: AAS 56 (1964), 588 [TPS IX, 355-356]; to Commission for the Study of Problems of Population, Family and Birth: AAS 57 (1965), 388 [TPS X, 225]; to National Congress of the Italian Society of Obstetrics and Gynecology: AAS 58 (1966), 1168 [TPS XI, 401-403].

(6) See 1 Jn 4. 8.

(7) Eph 3. 15.

(8) Second Vatican Council, Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the World of Today, no. 50: AAS 58 (1966), 1070-1072 [TPS XI, 292-293].

(9) See St. Thomas, Summa Theologiae, I-II, q. 94, art. 2.

(10) See Second Vatican Council, Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the World of Today, nos . 50- 5 1: AAS 58 ( 1 966) 1070-1073 [TPS XI, 292-293].

(11) See ibid., no. 49: AAS 58 (1966), 1070 [TPS XI, 291-292].

(12) See Pius XI. encyc. letter Casti connubi: AAS 22 (1930), 560; Pius XII, Address to Midwives: AAS 43 (1951), 843.

(13) See encyc. letter Mater et Magistra: AAS 53 (1961), 447 [TPS VII, 331].

(14) See Council of Trent Roman Catechism, Part II, ch. 8; Pius XI, encyc. letter Casti connubii: AAS 22 (1930), 562-564; Pius XII, Address to Medico-Biological Union of St. Luke: Discorsi e radiomessaggi, VI, 191-192; Address to Midwives: AAS 43 (1951), 842-843; Address to Family Campaign and other family associations: AAS 43 (1951), 857-859; John XXIII, encyc. letter Pacem in terris: AAS 55 (1963), 259-260 [TPS IX, 15-16]; Second Vatican Council, Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the World of Today, no. 51: AAS 58 (1966), 1072 [TPS XI, 293].

(15) See Pius XI, encyc. letter Casti connubii: AAS 22 (1930), 565; Decree of the Holy Office, Feb. 22, 1940: AAS 32 (1940), 73; Pius XII, Address to Midwives: AAS 43

(1951), 843-844; to the Society of Hematology: AAS 50 (1958), 734-735 [TPS VI, 394-395].

(16) See Council of Trent Roman Catechism, Part II, ch. 8; Pius XI, encyc. letter Casti connubii: AAS 22 (1930), 559-561; Pius XII, Address to Midwives: AAS 43 (1951), 843; to the Society of Hematology: AAS 50 (1958), 734-735 [TPS VI, 394-395]; John XXIII, encyc.letter Mater et Magistra: AAS 53 (1961), 447 [TPS VII, 331].

(17) See Pius XII, Address to National Congress of Italian Society of the Union of Catholic Jurists: AAS 45 (1953), 798-799 [TPS I, 67-69].

(18) See Rom 3. 8.

(19) See Pius XII, Address to 26th Congress of Italian Association of Urology: AAS 45 (1953), 674-675; to Society of Hematology: AAS 50 (1958), 734-735 [TPS VI, 394-395].

(20) See Pius XII, Address to Midwives: AAS 43 (1951), 846.

(21) See Pius XII, Address to Association of Urology: AAS 45 (1953), 674-675; to leaders and members of Italian Association of Cornea Donors and Italian Association for the Blind: AAS 48 (1956), 461-462 [TPS III, 200-201].

(22) Lk 2. 34.

(23) See Paul Vl, encyc. letter Populorum progressio: AAS 59 (1967), 268 [TPS XII, 151].

(24) See Rom 8.

(25) See Second Vatican Council, Decree on the Media of Social Communication, nos. 6-7: AAS 56 (1964), 147 [TPS IX, 340-341].

(26) Encyc. letter Mater et Magistra: AAS 53 (1961), 447 [TPS VII, 331].

(27) See encyc. letter Populorum progressio, nos. 48-55: AAS 59 (1967), 281-284 [TPS XII, 160-162].

(28) Second Vatican Council, Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the World of Today, no. 52: AAS 58 (1966), 1074 [TPS XI, 294].

(29) Address to Family Campaign and other family associations: AAS 43 (1951), 859.

(30) Second Vatican Council, Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the World of Today, no. 51: AAS 58 (1966), 1072 [TPS XI, 293].

(31) See Mt 11. 30.

(32) See Second Vatican Council, Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the World of Today, no. 48: AAS 58 (1966), 1067-1069 [TPS XI,290-291]; Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, no. 35: AAS 57 (1965), 40-41 [TPS X, 382-383].

(33) Mt 7. 14; see Heb 12. 11.

(34) See Ti 2. 12.

(35) See 1 Cor 7. 31.

(36) Rom 5. 5.

(37) Eph 5. 25, 28-29, 32-33.

(38) See Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, nos. 35, 41: AAS 57 (1965), 40-45 [TPS X, 382-383, 386-387; Pastoral Constitution on the Church in the World of Today, nos. 48-49: AAS 58 (1966),1067-1070 [TPS XI, 290-292]; Decree on the Apostolate of the Laity, no. 11: AAS 58 (1966), 847-849 [TPS XI, 128-129].

(39) See Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, no. 25: AAS 57 (1965), 29-31 [TPS X, 375-376].

(40) 1 Cor 1. 10.

(41) See Jn 3. 17.

[andi*pandi]

tl/dr; (wait, I actually did, but this is a public service for anyone else)

The church says it is totally ok for married couples to celebrate their marriage by banging for fun, as long as they do not prevent pregnancy (ie, any potential meeting of sperm and egg) from occurring, implanting, etc. If married couples want to prevent pregnancy, (and to give credit, it seems the church understands not everyone can afford 19 children) the only recourse is get said banging on during infertile times of the month. (Which does not preclude the red tide, afaict.)

Nothing I could tell here mentions that women are not like clockwork, and that cycles are not always predictable, even with the help of <gasp> science. So if NFP doesn't work for you, just shrug, say it's god's will, and try to figure out how to feed that extra mouth or two.

27 is BS and I do not expect nor require religious doctrine from my medical professionals.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Despite Andi's frustration, NFP when properly taught and practiced is just as effecticive as the pill, and without the side affects.

I know I quoted this before but I wanted to make sure it showed up after the huge wall of text. I need two clarifications:
1. What method of NFP does The Church teach? Calendar-based? Basal temp based?
2. How do you reconcile that statement with the data on birth control effectiveness? More people lying on surveys?

[Chongo]

From the USCCB
NFP Methodology

What are the methods of NFP?
Each NFP method is focused on one or more signs of female fertility. They can be grouped into three categories

Cervical Mucus Methods (CMM)
The methods that observe cervical mucus are commonly called the "Ovulation Method" or "OM." In NFP education, a woman learns how to identify the normal, healthy, cervical mucus which indicates the days that sexual intercourse is most likely to result in pregnancy. A number of NFP providers teach a variety of approaches to the observation and charting of cervical mucus (e.g., Billings Ovulation Method Association—USA, Creighton Model FertilityCare™ Centers, Family of the Americas, etc.).
Sympto-Thermal Methods (STM)
The methods that observe several signs of fertility and cross-check two or more of the signs to pinpoint ovulation are commonly called the "Sympto-Thermal Method" or "STM." STM typically combines charting of the Basal Body Temperature (BBT) and cervical mucus with other optional indicators, such as changes in the cervix and secondary fertility signs. A number of NFP providers teach a variety of approaches to the observation and charting of these signs (e.g., Couple to Couple League, Northwest Family Services, various diocesan programs, etc.).
Sympto-Hormonal Method (SHM)
The method that observes several signs of fertility and adds the use of an ovulation predictor kit (OPK) or fertility monitor is called the "Sympto-Hormonal Method" or "SHM." Similar to the STM, this approach adds the self-detection of reproductive hormones in the urine with the assistance of an OPK or fertility monitor. Various diocesan NFP programs make use of the SHM as well as Marquette University's Institute for NFP (Marquette Model).

The "calendar method" iis not taught.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

I just want to say that the term "cervical mucus" isn't particularly very sexy. That's all.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

From the USCCB
NFP Methodology


The "calendar method" iis not taught.

I surveyed some True Catholics and they say it is.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I just want to say that the term "cervical mucus" isn't particularly very sexy. That's all.

Best form of birth control is discussing cervical mucus.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I surveyed some True Catholics and they say it is.

Those must be the ones living with the True Scotsmen.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

I'd loooove to see a study showing that looking at a calendar and guessing is universally as effective as an IUD.

I think Chongo misspoke here, because if NFP were as effective as artificial birth control, the church ban against makes less, not more sense. We live our daily lives surrounded by artificiality.

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

The church says it is totally ok for married couples to celebrate their marriage by banging for fun, as long as they do not prevent pregnancy (ie, any potential meeting of sperm and egg) from occurring, implanting, etc. If married couples want to prevent pregnancy, (and to give credit, it seems the church understands not everyone can afford 19 children) the only recourse is get said banging on during infertile times of the month.

Basically, NFP is equivalent to gambling (which, I'm told, is not very virtuous). I think the overall goal of banning contraceptives but allowing NFP is very clear – to make recreational sex an undesirable option for those who don't want to risk having more kids.

Alternatively, if god really likes you, you'd be shooting blanks.

(Alternatively, alternatively, start wearing underwear a size to small and always use your macbook on your crotch once you're done procreating)

[subego]

Similarly, I always thought keeping Kosher was less about the divine virtue of that diet and more about making it a pain in the ass for you to eat at the same table with a goyim.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Similarly, I always thought keeping Kosher was less about the divine virtue of that diet and more about making it a pain in the ass for you to eat at the same table with a goyim.

I could see it as a guideline to improve health through cleanliness that became irrelevant through the advance of civilization and technology.

[subego]

Certain parts? Absolutely. No dairy with meat? I think that's to be a pain in the ass.

Though, I think the given rationale is kinda poetic: you are not to bathe meat in its mother's milk.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Though, I think the given rationale is kinda poetic: you are not to bathe meat in its mother's milk.

[OAW]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I think the overall goal of banning contraceptives but allowing NFP is very clear – to make recreational sex an undesirable option for those who don't want to risk having more kids.

As I stated earlier, this is what it's all about.

OAW

[Cap'n Tightpants]

This should be obvious, but talking with a Catholic priest about sex makes about as much sense as asking an orthodox rabbi for advice on cooking a pork roast...

[The Final Dakar]

It's always interesting to try and suss-out the logic, whatever it may be.

Much like the whole Shabbat thing for Jews. (Electricity is fire, and pushing a button is work)

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Shabbat is easy to figure out, you should set aside one day a week, all day, to spend with your family to work on your bonds with each other. That's mostly it.

[Laminar]

...in a cold, dark room.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

if that's what you want. *shrug*

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Shabbat is easy to figure out,

Except for the part where I showed it isn't.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

This should be obvious, but talking with a Catholic priest about sex makes about as much sense as asking an orthodox rabbi for advice on cooking a pork roast...

Does that mean only people with children can be child psychologists?
The Pastor of my last Parish and the Parochial Vicar of my current Parish are both married with children. Eastern Rite Catholic Churches allow married men to be ordained. Single men who are ordained take a vow a celibacy just as Latin Rite Priests do.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Except for the part where I showed it isn't.

Not wanting to understand something isn't the same as not being able to. Jewish families are typically much more tightly knit than non-Jews, and no small part of that is due to how much time they spend together. One of my best friends, when I was a teenager, was a Conservative Jew and the generation gaps within his family weren't nearly as wide as those in mine (or anyone else I knew). He had no issues talking about anything with his parents, and even his grandparents seemed to be "hip" to what he was into and what was going on with the younger generations. By the same token, he had a very firm grasp of their traditions, perceptions, and expectations. Shabbat gave them the time to sit and talk about cultural and social changes, since they weren't in a rush to leave and go do something somewhere else, they had several hours each week just to communicate and work on understanding each other, and as a people it's one of their greatest strengths. So within that tradition, the focus isn't necessarily on what you shouldn't be doing; working, lighting fires, baking, etc., but on what you should be doing, which is connecting with each other and God.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Does that mean only people with children can be child psychologists?

To be a good one, I'd say yes. Having kids of your own greatly enhances your understanding of them.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Not wanting to understand something isn't the same as not being able to.

Feel free to tell that to all the rabbis that argue about stuff like this then. I just stand by and be amazed.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Not wanting to understand something isn't the same as not being able to. Jewish families are typically much more tightly knit than non-Jews, and no small part of that is due to how much time they spend together. One of my best friends, when I was a teenager, was a Conservative Jew and the generation gaps within his family weren't nearly as wide as those in mine (or anyone else I knew). He had no issues talking about anything with his parents, and even his grandparents seemed to be "hip" to what he was into and what was going on with the younger generations. By the same token, he had a very firm grasp of their traditions, perceptions, and expectations. Shabbat gave them the time to sit and talk about cultural and social changes, since they weren't in a rush to leave and go do something somewhere else, they had several hours each week just to communicate and work on understanding each other, and as a people it's one of their greatest strengths. So within that tradition, the focus isn't necessarily on what you shouldn't be doing; working, lighting fires, baking, etc., but on what you should be doing, which is connecting with each other and God.

I see the Amish as the ultimate expression of this idea. Whether a piece of technology is acceptable is based purely on whether it will bring the community together, or drive it apart.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Feel free to tell that to all the rabbis that argue about stuff like this then. I just stand by and be amazed.

They don't argue about the purpose of Shabbat (unless they're some hipster Reformed sect that doesn't bother with reading the Torah in the first place), it's for family.

Originally Posted by subego 

I see the Amish as the ultimate expression of this idea. Whether a piece of technology is acceptable is based purely on whether it will bring the community together, or drive it apart.

Good point there, they're another group who understands that aspect of life, much more often than not.

[andi*pandi]

Spending time with family is all well and good, but that doesn't deny the fact that if you are strict, unless you a) leave the lights on from friday to saturday, or b) pay some shiksah to come in and push buttons for you, your friday night is going to be spent in the dark, eating cold food that you left out before sunset, because you're not allowed to touch a light switch/stove/etc.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

They don't argue about the purpose of Shabbat

Neither was I, but you seem compelled to lecture someone about it.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Neither was I, but you seem compelled to lecture someone about it.

I was just trying to explain that "Shabbat thing" to you, since you said you didn't understand it.

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

Spending time with family is all well and good, but that doesn't deny the fact that if you are strict, unless you a) leave the lights on from friday to saturday, or b) pay some shiksah to come in and push buttons for you, your friday night is going to be spent in the dark, eating cold food that you left out before sunset, because you're not allowed to touch a light switch/stove/etc.

Most do leave at least some lights on the whole time and food can be kept warm by various means, throughout Shabbat, but the main takeaway is to not spend time working, cooking, cleaning, or traveling around, it should be spent at home with your family. Any rabbi worth his shawl will tell you that as long as you're keeping with spirit of the law, choosing to spend the time in prayer and with your family, then you'll reap the same blessings.

[Chongo]

There are Sabbath mode appliances.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I was just trying to explain that "Shabbat thing" to you, since you said you didn't understand it.

I understand the basics – it's a day of rest. I'm just fascinated by some of the leaps of logic and creation of technicalities it's spawned.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

as long as you're keeping with spirit of the law,

Yeah, that's the thing, like a lot of other religious rules. Spirit of the law vs. letter of the law. I'm amazed some interpretations of the letter of the law.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

There are Sabbath mode appliances.

Which makes a lot of sense. But part of my fascination is sabbath mode for elevators; That and that there are orthodox that even consider that a violation.

[subego]

I bought my ex, who's a drunk, a wine refrigerator which had a Sabbath mode. I found that funny.

Though I guess nothing says you can't get hammered on the Sabbath.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

This should be obvious, but talking with a Catholic priest about sex makes about as much sense as asking an orthodox rabbi for advice on cooking a pork roast...

Originally Posted by Chongo 

The Pastor of my last Parish and the Parochial Vicar of my current Parish are both married with children. Eastern Rite Catholic Churches allow married men to be ordained. Single men who are ordained take a vow a celibacy just as Latin Rite Priests do.

Those ordianed to the permanant Diaconte in the Latin Rite (or the Eastern Rites) can be married. They are not permitted to marry again if their wife dies. The same applies to married Priests, Eastern or Latin.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Those ordianed to the permanant Diaconte in the Latin Rite (or the Eastern Rites) can be married. They are not permitted to marry again if their wife dies. The same applies to married Priests, Eastern or Latin.

I know that, but none of those are Roman Catholic Priests, and that was the whole point (which you're dancing around)..