[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

I know this is cliché, but it's not the tool that's the problem, it's the tool user.

That's right. And in the meantime, if we can mitigate some of that stupid tool use and save lives we should.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Because the goal isn't to make the police more effective, it's to eventually disarm them completely.

I don't want to disarm police, but I certainly don't see why they all need to be armed lethally, and more importantly, why they all don't have non-lethal options.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

It's not out of nowhere, though. This device, to steal an SJW term, is problematic.

If the intent is for the gun to be carried with the device attached, that is equivalent to a policy which states "there is no situation in which you are allowed to respond immediately with lethal force".

If one claims this is good policy, they're prompting the question whether lethal force is needed at all then. This is especially true considering the justification for why lethal force is needed is immediacy.

IOW, cops are allowed to carry an instrument of lethal force on their person because any less immediate response is considered more dangerous. If the situation doesn't need to be responded to immediately with lethal force, you've lost the justification for using lethal force.

This device implies a policy where there is no situation justifying the immediate application of lethal force.

My problem is you term of 'immediate' is defined by the extra second it takes to pull the trigger a second time. Let me put this indelicately: In an ideal world where police aren't frivolous in their gun use your policy makes sense. In the real world, the question is whether this will save more lives then it will cost.

[subego]

That's a valid point, but then if the "safety" is so easy to get around, why bother?

This has a TSA feel to it. The point is more to make it look like we're doing something rather than actually doing something.

This thread has gone on long enough it's pretty obvious to me what the broken part is. It's the large disincentive package prosecutors get when it comes to dealing with police malfeasance. This device is spitting into the wind.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

That's a valid point, but then if the "safety" is so easy to get around, why bother?

That's a valid point.

Originally Posted by subego 

This has a TSA feel to it. The point is more to make it look like we're doing something rather than actually doing something.

I think this is more desperation to do anything that might save lives because the system is so recalcitrant that getting real change is akin to pulling teeth.

[subego]

I sympathize with that, I really do, and make no mistake, I'm totally for non-lethal options being added to the arsenal. My claim is gimping the lethal options isn't the way to go about it. Like Mr. Natural says, "the right tool for the right job".

I'd say a less desperate response, but one which would undoubtedly produce results, is bodycams, coupled with a pretty draconian policy about shutting them off. It pains me to say it, but "**** privacy concerns" draconian.

You couldn't get me to say that five years ago, but I think it's time to start making peace with the fact the privacy ship has sailed.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

I'd say a less desperate response, but one which would undoubtedly produce results, is bodycams, coupled with a pretty draconian policy about shutting them off.

Which we're seeing widespread adoption of. How about a draconian policy about carrying non-lethal options? That'd be nice. Hearing Darren WIlson say he wasn't carrying his taser out of comfort is a bit galling.

Originally Posted by subego 

It pains me to say it, but "**** privacy concerns" draconian.

What privacy concerns do you have? As I recall a programmer in Seattle was working with the PD to address some of those concerns.

[subego]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

I criticized the device for different reasons, so I'm not a proponent of it being used in the field. So I am not sure whether you intend to address me with the rest of your post. Be that as it may, the purpose of the device is to give a police officer the option whether or not to use lethal force, but that has exactly zero connection to a call to “disarm all cops”.

I'm only addressing your comment that bringing up disarmament is irrelevant. If your gun is meant to be carried with the device on, proponents of its use are arguing, whether they want to or not, there are no scenarios where lethal force is acceptable as a first response.

Someone pulls a gun and starts shooting at you? Doesn't matter. This is not an scenario in which we will allow your first shot to be lethal.

This is a radical enough position I don't think it's unreasonable to assert those who hold it are questioning the need for lethality in the first place.

That said, I got the impression Moore was calling for a temporary disarmament until we clean house. It's hard to tell. If anyone needs to be taken out back and shot it's the person who coded the WT mobile site. Jeeeesus Christ.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Which we're seeing widespread adoption of. How about a draconian policy about carrying non-lethal options? That'd be nice. Hearing Darren WIlson say he wasn't carrying his taser out of comfort is a bit galling.

What privacy concerns do you have? As I recall a programmer in Seattle was working with the PD to address some of those concerns.

Well, from the standpoint of not wanting cops to evade the scrutiny, the ideal policy would be "you cannot shut this thing off under any circumstances, and you'll get fired if you try".

Off the top of my head, that means cops are filming in places like the men's room, or inside the homes of private citizens.

I'll get to the taser thing in a sec...


Edit: Men's room? What year is it grandpa?

[subego]

I think it would be good to have a draconian policy about carrying non-lethal options, but the issue Wilson was talking about isn't insignificant.

There really isn't room on a belt for a taser. The "comfortable" places they can go (and this is comfortable when sitting in a squad all day) are taken up by the baton on one side and a pistol on the other. If you put the taser in front, you can't really sit down without the grip jamming you in the gut all day.

I don't think this is an insurmountable problem, but you'd need to start doing something new, like having a holster integrated into your vest.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

My problem is you term of 'immediate' is defined by the extra second it takes to pull the trigger a second time. Let me put this indelicately: In an ideal world where police aren't frivolous in their gun use your policy makes sense. In the real world, the question is whether this will save more lives then it will cost.

The question is, are we okay with the idea that it will likely injure innocent bystanders as often as it does a perp?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

That's a valid point.

I think this is more desperation to do anything that might save lives because the system is so recalcitrant that getting real change is akin to pulling teeth.

The problem is that oftentimes "doing anything" is as bad, or worse, than doing nothing. The weapons aren't the problem, it's the; lack of training, emotional fatigue, and environment.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

The problem is that oftentimes "doing anything" is as bad, or worse, than doing nothing.

This is vague hoo-hah.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

The weapons aren't the problem, it's the; lack of training, emotional fatigue, and environment.

Already been addressed above.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

This is vague hoo-hah.

No, it's certainly not.

Already been addressed above.

and that's the answer, not firearm prophylactics.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by subego 

I think it would be good to have a draconian policy about carrying non-lethal options, but the issue Wilson was talking about isn't insignificant.

There really isn't room on a belt for a taser. The "comfortable" places they can go (and this is comfortable when sitting in a squad all day) are taken up by the baton on one side and a pistol on the other.

I don't agree with that: the pistol is not just in the most comfortable position, it's in the default position (as it is the easiest to reach). So in principle you could make another weapon the default if you put it in the place that is currently occupied by a gun, and the sidearm could be put in a shoulder holster. I'm not actually arguing here that replacing the gun with a less lethal weapon in the default position is a good idea, but that the two are intrinsically linked.

Connected to that is the idea that police men are given a lot of leeway if they perceive themselves to be at risk: many shootings are justified merely because the police officer thought the other person was armed, and that this threshold is enough. Looking at the reaction of average people towards shootings caught on video, I think this very low bar could (and in my opinion should) be renegotiated. I don't think the life of a cop should be the primary concern (especially considering the mismatch between police officers killed on duty by an attacker and the number of people shot by police officers). Just like a fire man does not have an excuse in my book to refuse to run into a burning building because it's dangerous or a soldier has no excuse to not be deployed in a war zone, a police officer does not get to put his own safety over the greater good — if you take this job, you know full well what is asked of you. And if you are not willing to do that (which is fair), then look for a different line of work.

So I think what the public should do is find a new consensus what kind of police they would like, and then take the responsibility (e. g. by allotting enough money to staff and train the police) to get the police you want.

[subego]

One of my big complaints is police don't get enough money.

I'm anti-government, because the government tends to screw things up, and I'd prefer to avoid it if possible.

That said, we need police, so the best chance we have of not having it screw up is throwing money at it. Lots of money. The most obvious needs are a better salary, so you attract better employees, and lots of counseling, because being a cop appears to mess with your head.

As for holster situations, I don't see much difference in ease of drawing with a belt holster vs. a vest holster. A vest holster is going to be a little slower in acquiring aim. It seems to me you want the lethal option on the belt. I'll totally acknowledge the fact the bar is too low for the use of lethal force, but there are too many scenarios where both lethal force is unquestionably justified, and milliseconds count.

Not that you were supporting it, but that's my chief complaint about the gun attachment. Cops being so fast and loose with their guns that people end up murdered doesn't get rid of the scenario where people shoot at cops. That's why cops carry pistols in the first place. The need for the instantaneous application of deadly force is recognized.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

No, it's certainly not.

The problem welfare is that oftentimes "doing anything" is as bad, or worse, than doing nothing.
The problem with gun control is that oftentimes "doing anything" is as bad, or worse, than doing nothing.
The problem with wealth inequality is that oftentimes "doing anything" is as bad, or worse, than doing nothing.
The problem with police "doing anything" is as bad, or worse, than doing nothing.

Generic rubbish that dismisses options before they're even brought up.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

One of my big complaints is police don't get enough money.

Allow me to propose No Black Life Left Behind legislation which ties funding to meeting certain benchmarks on complaints and use of deadly force.
no thats a terrible idea

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

and that's the answer, not firearm prophylactics.

I don't think you read the right post.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Allow me to propose No Black Life Left Behind legislation which ties funding to meeting certain benchmarks on complaints and use of deadly force.
no thats a terrible idea

Knee-jerk reaction...

No.

This sets up a death spiral. Bad police departments will get worse.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Knee-jerk reaction...

No.

This sets up a death spiral. Bad police departments will get worse.

White text, grasshopper.

[subego]

Poe's law in action.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

Poe's law in action.

Does not speak well of me.

[subego]

I didn't think you were trying to convince me of the validity of the idea, only that you were repeating a proposal which had relevance to the discussion.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

The problem welfare is that oftentimes "doing anything" is as bad, or worse, than doing nothing.
The problem with gun control is that oftentimes "doing anything" is as bad, or worse, than doing nothing.
The problem with wealth inequality is that oftentimes "doing anything" is as bad, or worse, than doing nothing.
The problem with police "doing anything" is as bad, or worse, than doing nothing.

Generic rubbish that dismisses options before they're even brought up.

As opposed to a "spray and pray" approach, where we implement a bunch of half-baked ideas in the hopes one will work? 2 steps forward, 3 steps back. Action does need to be taken, but it must be focused and fully thought out.

[BadKosh]

But the police MUST be able to control the violent, rioting populace, not the other way around. The current tactics were IN RESPONSE to the increasingly violent people in the community. They would not have had to resort to these kind of tactics if the communities were less violent. The race baiters are responsible for this aspect.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

As opposed to a "spray and pray" approach, where we implement a bunch of half-baked ideas in the hopes one will work? 2 steps forward, 3 steps back. Action does need to be taken, but it must be focused and fully thought out.

Strawman. I didn't advocate such a thing.

[The Final Dakar]

Fodder for another thread... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ock-to-school/

So on Sunday night, he quickly put together a homemade digital clock

“They took me to a room filled with five officers in which they interrogated me and searched through my stuff and took my tablet and my invention,” the teen said. “They were like, ‘So you tried to make a bomb?’ I told them no, I was trying to make a clock.”

But his questioner responded, “It looks like a movie bomb to me.”

Mohamed told NBC-Dallas Fort Worth that he was taken to police headquarters, handcuffed and fingerprinted.

It takes five people to interrogate a 14 year-old?

During questioning, officers repeatedly brought up his last name, Mohamed said. When he tried to call his father, Mohamed said he was told he couldn’t speak to his parents until after the interrogation was over.

Pretty sure that's a violation of his rights as a minor.

Irving 9th-grader arrested after taking homemade clock to school: 'So you tried to make a bomb?' | Dallas Morning News

Police say they may yet charge him with making a hoax bomb — though they acknowledge he told everyone who would listen that it’s a clock.

They led Ahmed into a room where four other police officers waited. He said an officer he’d never seen before leaned back in his chair and remarked: “Yup. That’s who I thought it was.”

Racism, of course.

The principal threatened to expel him if he didn’t make a written statement, he said.

...and coercion.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Strawman. I didn't advocate such a thing.

Gun condoms? Really?

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Fodder for another thread... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ock-to-school/


It takes five people to interrogate a 14 year-old?



Pretty sure that's a violation of his rights as a minor.

Irving 9th-grader arrested after taking homemade clock to school: 'So you tried to make a bomb?' | Dallas Morning News


Racism, of course.

...and coercion.

The consensus is the kid has a massive settlement in his future.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

and is a massive troll for taking a homemade clock to school in a briefcase, especially in today's political climate.

[andi*pandi]

edit:
I think the school overreacted. Any white kid bringing in an electronics project to show off to a teacher would be lauded. Because it looks like a "movie bomb" sounds like an idiotic response from hicks. A movie bomb, come on. Today's real bombs can look like anything. A phone. A shoe. A crockpot. How many robotics clubs meet at schools all over with similar electronics projects? Do we seriously want to discourage our future technology moguls from experimenting? And how is treating this kid like a criminal not making every terrorist in the world go "yep. we're totally right for hating 'em".

Comment to last page:
how about the police use tranquilizer guns? Only special units like SWAT get to use bullets?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

Gun condoms? Really?

Querying the forum on a proposal making the rounds is 'a "spray and pray" approach, where we implement a bunch of half-baked ideas in the hopes one will work'?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

and is a massive troll for taking a homemade clock to school in a briefcase, especially in today's political climate.

14 year-olds should really know better about the current political climate, amirite?

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

edit:
I think the school overreacted. Any white kid bringing in an electronics project to show off to a teacher would be lauded. Because it looks like a "movie bomb" sounds like an idiotic response from hicks. A movie bomb, come on. Today's real bombs can look like anything. A phone. A shoe. A crockpot. How many robotics clubs meet at schools all over with similar electronics projects? Do we seriously want to discourage our future technology moguls from experimenting? And how is treating this kid like a criminal not making every terrorist in the world go "yep. we're totally right for hating 'em".

This is where I'll note that a school here in PA suspended a kid for eating his pop-tart into the shape of the gun (or something to that effect).

---

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

Comment to last page:
how about the police use tranquilizer guns? Only special units like SWAT get to use bullets?

I don't think they're fasting acting enough. Even the movie versions.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

The consensus is the kid has a massive settlement in his future.

@IrvingPD says there is no evidence of intent to create harm. Case dropped and closed @NBCDFW

Now to investigate the IrvingPD!

[subego]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

and is a massive troll for taking a homemade clock to school in a briefcase, especially in today's political climate.

The case it was in looks about binder sized.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I don't think they're fasting acting enough. Even the movie versions.

My understanding is there's a pretty wide variance in how they affect people.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

The case it was in looks about binder sized.

It could have been full of women!

Originally Posted by subego 

My und
erstanding is there's a pretty wide variance in how they affect people.

That applies to tasers too, though, right?

[subego]

I was talking about tasers. Some people they bring down, some they don't.

The same could be said of bullets, but that's more dependent on where you hit, and you have more attempts at your disposal.

[The Final Dakar]

Originally Posted by subego 

I was talking about tasers. Some people they bring down, some they don't.

I thought andi was talking about tranq guns.

[subego]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

I thought andi was talking about tranq guns.

They both start with "T". That's not enough?

[BadKosh]

We need smarter police.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

Querying the forum on a proposal making the rounds is 'a "spray and pray" approach, where we implement a bunch of half-baked ideas in the hopes one will work'?

The people building, and hyping (as evidenced by the article you linked), such products are doing more than querying forums, they're trying to change policy without trying to objectively look at what such things would do beforehand.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar 

14 year-olds should really know better about the current political climate, amirite?

In today's world where they have internet and are connected to any and all information that relates to the world around them? To a point. I'm not saying he deserved to be treated harshly, he's a kid, but it was, as my dad was fond of saying, "a boneheaded move". Placing something that ticks into a briefcase and taking it to school?

[Cap'n Tightpants]

Originally Posted by subego 

The case it was in looks about binder sized.

I can make a bomb that would destroy everything within 100', using household products (instructions are online), that would fit in a case that size. Again, taking a ticking case to school... not his finest hour.

[subego]

Re: spray and pray.

There's welfare doing something is better than nothing, and there's TSA doing something is better than nothing.

My issue is the condom is of the TSA variety.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants 

I can make a bomb that would destroy everything within 100', using household products (instructions are online), that would fit in a case that size. Again, taking a ticking case to school... not his finest hour.

And you could make a better bomb if you had more room to pack in explosives and shrapnel.

That's my only point.

[Cap'n Tightpants]

but then it would be more conspicuous, suitcase-sized instead of briefcase.

[subego]

We have the red and blue wires crossed or something.

The case he used looks to be about the size of a three ring binder, not a briefcase. I imagine it fit in his backpack. AFAICT, it's a (large) pencil case.

A better bomb than this would be briefcase sized. A better bomb than briefcase sized would be suitcase sized.

[andi*pandi]

Things everyday kids have in their everyday backpacks: pencil cases, calculators, elastics, tape, markers...

Let's tape a calculator to a pencil case, bombs on Macguyver weren't much more sophisticated, or realistic... What's missing? explosives. Would some boneheaded school admin really not know the difference? Or approach it sensitively? At least we can be happy they didn't shoot this poor kid and ask questions later.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

Things everyday kids have in their everyday backpacks: pencil cases, calculators, elastics, tape, markers...

Let's tape a calculator to a pencil case, bombs on Macguyver weren't much more sophisticated, or realistic... What's missing? explosives. Would some boneheaded school admin really not know the difference? Or approach it sensitively? At least we can be happy they didn't shoot this poor kid and ask questions later.

How many kids have been sent home for pointing their finger or stick at other kid and going "bang bang?"