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Car Talk (Page 24)
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Doc HM
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Nov 5, 2020, 04:08 AM
 
It's not something people ever say about them, so I fully understand it's just me, but, Tesla's look (ie the actual exterior design) so bloody boring!
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OreoCookie
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Nov 5, 2020, 04:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
It's not something people ever say about them, so I fully understand it's just me, but, Tesla's look (ie the actual exterior design) so bloody boring!
Agreed, the outside is not exactly beautiful. Tesla's S3XY models are in weird contrast to the Cybertruck which looks like it came out of a 1980s cyberpunk movie.
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MacNNFamous
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Nov 5, 2020, 10:22 AM
 


Looks good to me
     
Thorzdad
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Nov 5, 2020, 10:37 AM
 
I dunno. That front end always looks unfinished and unbalanced to me. That big flat recess right under the leading edge looks like a mistake. Like they intended to put a grille or something in there but ran out of time.
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Laminar
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Nov 5, 2020, 10:49 AM
 
Model S looks good. It was futuristic in 2012 but it's looking a bit dated now. It aged a little better than most of what came out in 2012.

The Model 3 looks good in some pictures from some angles. In person it looks disproportionate and dorky as hell. But they're absolute monsters on the track.
     
MacNNFamous
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Nov 5, 2020, 11:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
I dunno. That front end always looks unfinished and unbalanced to me. That big flat recess right under the leading edge looks like a mistake. Like they intended to put a grille or something in there but ran out of time.
That's how I felt the first year it was out.
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 5, 2020, 11:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post


Looks good to me
that's because it looks like a neon.

     
Laminar
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Nov 5, 2020, 01:14 PM
 
     
MacNNFamous
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Nov 5, 2020, 01:19 PM
 
Nah, I always hated second gens. They looked like shit.

First gen is where it's at.

     
Laminar
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Nov 5, 2020, 01:30 PM
 
BTW toying with the idea of a 2016-up Volt. My current car exists because I needed to fit a rear-facing car seat for a couple years and I didn't want a crossover, but we're done with that. I could just about trade straight across for a Volt and I'd save ~$100/month in gas. Plus get CarPlay. My daily commute would easily be done within the full electric range, my work has a couple of charging stations, and I already installed a 240V 50A outlet in my garage a couple years back for when this day came.
     
Laminar
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Nov 5, 2020, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Nah, I always hated second gens. They looked like shit.

First gen is where it's at.

Oh god.
     
MacNNFamous
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Nov 5, 2020, 02:26 PM
 
I mean, nothing will approach the pinnacle of automotive design such as the e36.... but for a fwd shitbox I still like them. Only the first gens.
     
Laminar
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Nov 5, 2020, 02:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
I mean, nothing will approach the pinnacle of automotive design such as the e36
Sorry, I'm trying to figure out what this sentence means. Did you mean to say "the pinnacle of automotive design that is the e36"? Or was it supposed to be "a pinnacle of automotive design such as the e36"?
     
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Nov 5, 2020, 04:05 PM
 
It's basically that I will never be as cool as you dude. I would suck your dick. You're the coolest thing in the whole world.
     
Laminar
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Nov 5, 2020, 05:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
It's basically that I will never be as cool as you dude.
That hasn't stopped you from trying.
     
MacNNFamous
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Nov 5, 2020, 07:18 PM
 
Nah I could never get there, ever. You're the coolest dude ever.
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 5, 2020, 08:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post


Looks good to me
It looks like someone wanted to design an inoffensive car. Which clashes with the revolutionary stuff that is on the inside. The interior of the Model 3 is amazing and futuristic. The outside is blah in my book. But honestly, this could be why it is so popular with people: it appeals to a great number and offends very few.
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Laminar
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Nov 6, 2020, 09:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
It looks like someone wanted to design an inoffensive car. Which clashes with the revolutionary stuff that is on the inside. The interior of the Model 3 is amazing and futuristic. The outside is blah in my book. But honestly, this could be why it is so popular with people: it appeals to a great number and offends very few.
Compared with where BMW, Lexus, Kia, Chevy, and others have gone lately with the overly aggressive angry wide mouth stuff, it's kind of a relief?
     
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Nov 6, 2020, 10:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Compared with where BMW, Lexus, Kia, Chevy, and others have gone lately with the overly aggressive angry wide mouth stuff, it's kind of a relief?
You are right. Especially BMW has gone off the deep end, as if it has entered into a competition with Audi as to who has the bigger mouth (gaping hole) in the front where an air inlet used to be. (Or am I just an average bloke who is shockingly close to 40 and who loves the cars of his childhood? )

The Honda e to me is spot on. That thing looks friendly, unique, and just seeing it makes me want one. That is despite its small range. The VW ID3 is also alright, I don't love the design like I do the Honda's, but I like it. It definitely looks like a new kind of car and not a Golf Mark 9 that happens to have an electric engine. On both cars I appreciate the engineering. That's also why I have a soft spot for the BMW i3: the cheapest car with a carbon structure. And it is very roomy on the inside. I like the interior, too. And while it is ugly on the outside, it is, and I know this doesn't make much sense, a charming kind of ugly. The ugly person that is beautiful on the inside.

I have similar feelings for the Cybertruck: it looks like an aggressive piece of art that you find intriguing, but don't want to hang in your living room, because it'd destroy the atmosphere (and probably eat some of your furniture).
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reader50
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Nov 6, 2020, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Compared with where BMW, Lexus, Kia, Chevy, and others have gone lately with the overly aggressive angry wide mouth stuff, it's kind of a relief?
Let's not forget Toyota.

     
Thorzdad
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Nov 6, 2020, 01:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
You are right. Especially BMW has gone off the deep end, as if it has entered into a competition with Audi as to who has the bigger mouth (gaping hole) in the front where an air inlet used to be. (Or am I just an average bloke who is shockingly close to 40 and who loves the cars of his childhood? )
I had a mid-80's 3-series, and I have a definite fondness for the more traditional double-kidney grille. That said, I definitely think Lexus wins the "gaping hole" grille design contest. And they've stuck with that awful thing for seemingly ever.
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MacNNFamous
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Nov 6, 2020, 11:53 PM
 
Yeah, new cars are shit. Lexus has that predator face thing going on... rest of the car is boring af. Acura had that horrible ****ing beak for so long, and now anyone with any design sense left, and they don't want to do anything to relive their glory days. Infiniti... last time they had something exciting was the G35, and they messed that up with the melted blob of a G37. Audis look good but so similar to all their other models nothing is very exciting... which... honestly is pretty nice, more subtle.

Idk. I like the model 3. The proportions aren't the best, but the individual elements and character are nice. The headlights are attractve. The taillights are attractive. The car is a good design, it's just a bit .... shortened. Awkward proportion, really hard to make look good.
     
Laminar
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Nov 7, 2020, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Let's not forget Toyota.

The first time I saw that car I was 100% certain it had been photoshopped as an over the top joke about how bad grills had gotten.
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 8, 2020, 12:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Yeah, new cars are shit. Lexus has that predator face thing going on... rest of the car is boring af. Acura had that horrible ****ing beak for so long, and now anyone with any design sense left, and they don't want to do anything to relive their glory days. Infiniti... last time they had something exciting was the G35, and they messed that up with the melted blob of a G37. Audis look good but so similar to all their other models nothing is very exciting... which... honestly is pretty nice, more subtle.
Don’t forget Mazdas. Another thing I dislike is how similar all cars of a manufacturer often look. Mazda, Audi, BMW, Mercedes, the lot. Especially since cars grow in proportions with each generation, it is sometimes hard to tell at a glance whether this was a C-class or an E-class station wagon.
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
Idk. I like the model 3. The proportions aren't the best, but the individual elements and character are nice. The headlights are attractve. The taillights are attractive. The car is a good design, it's just a bit .... shortened. Awkward proportion, really hard to make look good.
I still believe that one of their considerations was that they wanted a “car-shaped car” for the lack of a better word. With an electric drivetrain you can completely change the shape of the car if you wanted to. The BMW i3’s design is an example, and it looks weird at best (and poops a 911 out its rear). The interior of the Model 3, though, is totally futuristic. I think within about 5-10 years Tesla will become more adventurous, but that this generation is to tide drivers over.
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
I had a mid-80's 3-series, and I have a definite fondness for the more traditional double-kidney grille. That said, I definitely think Lexus wins the "gaping hole" grille design contest. And they've stuck with that awful thing for seemingly ever.
Same here. Classic lines work nicely. Today’s designs are oversaturated, and once you compare, say, an E-class from the 1980s (W/S/A124) to a modern C-class or an equivalent pairing from another manufacturer, you realize how much these cars have grown.

The other thing is the horse power war. You can put a ridiculous amount of horsepower in an electric car, although you won’t be able to use it for otherwise you drain the battery in no time. At a certain point manufacturers have to give up on ever shorter 0-100 times. Also, it seems to me to take the enjoyment out of driving, using momentum correctly, getting on the gas at the right point, etc. If you have 500+ horsepower at your disposal, you should not use that power almost ever.
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Thorzdad
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Nov 8, 2020, 11:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Classic lines work nicely. Today’s designs are oversaturated, and once you compare, say, an E-class from the 1980s (W/S/A124) to a modern C-class or an equivalent pairing from another manufacturer, you realize how much these cars have grown.
The comparison I always point to is the size of the current Honda Civic to the Accord of 10+ years ago. It's insane how large the Civic has grown. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with improved crash protection (my old Civic Si hatchback, while fun, was definitely not a safety cocoon.) Still, the sizes of the "small" cars aren't all that small anymore.

I definitely miss the classic german three-box look of my old 3-series. Upright, and clear views all around. You definitely knew where you were in traffic. No real blind spots to speak of. That was such a fun little car, even in traffic. Rubbish in snow or ice, though, even with winter tires. The most tail-happy car I ever owned.
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subego  (op)
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Nov 8, 2020, 11:20 AM
 
I needed to drive my dad somewhere, so I rented an X3.

I’m sure it’s much safer on paper than my van, but I felt like I couldn’t see shit out of the thing, which can’t be great for safety.

I used to have an 89 325ix, which was awesome. The ix was AWD, so no snow problems either, but they hadn’t really perfected it yet, and the tranny kept dumping fluid.
( Last edited by subego; Nov 8, 2020 at 11:32 AM. )
     
Thorzdad
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Nov 8, 2020, 03:00 PM
 
I remember talking with my BMW mechanic about the iX right after it came out. He hated the thing. He said the AWD system was insanely complex, heavy, fragile, and a pain to work on. It was basically BMW finally waking up and trying to compete with Audi's famed Quattro system. Still, that era of 3-series were great cars. I really miss mine.
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subego  (op)
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Nov 8, 2020, 09:32 PM
 
Even with the problems, I loved mine. It unfortunately got ripped-off.

Replaced by a 95 Cherokee, which I also loved, though after 10 years it began to fall apart.
     
mindwaves
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Nov 9, 2020, 01:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
I dunno. That front end always looks unfinished and unbalanced to me. That big flat recess right under the leading edge looks like a mistake. Like they intended to put a grille or something in there but ran out of time.
I used to think that before when I first saw it but then I thought it was a stroke of genius. Why put a grill there when there doesn't need to be a grill? If it is fake, then don't put it on. Let it be the very purest essence of what it is.

In fact, as someone pointed it out to me earlier, many cars nowadays, even with their big grills, only a small portion of it is for air intake. The rest of it is just fake fake bits of plastic. Disproportionately so for some cars (see all Lexus, Toyota Avalon, BMW 7 series, Cadillac Escalade).

The previous and original design of the Model S had a fake black plastic grill which looked super ugly. The current version removed that and just put a slab of body color plastic/metal there instead with a small grill (for air?).

I own a Model 3 Performance now and I like how it looks. It is what it is. Minimalistic but pure and what a beast it is inside.
( Last edited by mindwaves; Nov 9, 2020 at 03:11 AM. )
     
mindwaves
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Nov 9, 2020, 01:45 AM
 
I don't know how other manufacturers are going to solve mass producing batteries. And even if they do, how to keep them charged up? The current network of EV charging, at least in the US, is quite a mess with different companies having different connectors. I guess the main one is the J-1772 (weird name) and Tesla.
     
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Nov 9, 2020, 02:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
I don't know how other manufacturers are going to solve mass producing batteries. And even if they do, how to keep them charged up? The current network of EV charging, at least in the US, is quite a mess with different companies having different connectors. I guess the main one is the J-1772 (weird name) and Tesla.
That's the biggest problem. Lawmakers in Europe and Japan have similarly been asleep at the wheel. You have different standards with limited cross-compatibility. I hope the European Union does the same thing what they did with mobile network standards in the 1990s: they put people from all the infrastructure manufacturers (Ericsson, Siemens, etc.) in a room and said “We don't care what standard you come up with, but you come up with a single standard.” That's how GSM was born, which was arguably better than CDMA.
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
Still, that era of 3-series were great cars. I really miss mine.
And they were small in a good way, just the right size for families. And since they all came with a straight-6, they ran smoothly and were quite zippy. Of course, our definition of “zippy” has changed. When even hot hatches come with with 400 horsepower, it really warps your mind. I remember when the first Audi RS4 came out: a 2.7 l biturbo motor with 380 horsepower. That thing was considered borderline insane. A family car that can eat Porsches for breakfast.
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mindwaves
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Nov 9, 2020, 03:14 AM
 
Back to sight lines, the one out the back of the Model 3 are absolutely horrible. Without the rearview camera, I couldn't see a four foot person maybe 10 feet behind my car. I can't see a sedan behind me unless it is 15 feet away. I can't even see the front of my car when squeezing into a tight parking space. I must rely on the parking sensors and the distance shown on my screen for help.
     
Laminar
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Nov 9, 2020, 09:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
In fact, as someone pointed it out to me earlier, many cars nowadays, even with their big grills, only a small portion of it is for air intake. The rest of it is just fake fake bits of plastic. Disproportionately so for some cars (see all Lexus, Toyota Avalon, BMW 7 series, Cadillac Escalade).
Jalopnik had a funny bit on this where they photoshopped out the fake area of the grill of several cars.

https://jalopnik.com/cars-without-fa...les-1818518076







     
Laminar
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Nov 9, 2020, 09:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
I remember talking with my BMW mechanic about the iX right after it came out. He hated the thing. He said the AWD system was insanely complex, heavy, fragile, and a pain to work on. It was basically BMW finally waking up and trying to compete with Audi's famed Quattro system. Still, that era of 3-series were great cars. I really miss mine.
Yeah, the whole front driveline went awkwardly around and through the oil pan.



It went so poorly that BMW gave up AWD for an entire generation. They picked it back up with the X5 in '99 and then the E46 had a version of it with a fixed ratio transfer case.

On the E46, the front diff/axle mounted to the oil pan which became structural, more like a Nissan GT-R had been using for years.

BMW:



Nissan:

     
Laminar
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Nov 9, 2020, 09:59 AM
 
In comparison, Audi and Subaru don't use a front diff, they just push the engine all of the way up in front of the front axle and pull the front half shafts off of the transmission.

Audi:



Subaru:



This saves some weight and complexity by eliminating the need for a front driveshaft, separate front differential, and axle housing. But unfortunately because the entire engine is now in front of the front axle line, your weight distribution is horrible. They're usually around 60% weight up front and 40% in the rear. The wagons are a bit better, just because they're heavier overall. The RWD BMWs are typically 50/50 and adding AWD bumps it to around 52/48.
     
MacNNFamous
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Nov 9, 2020, 11:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
In comparison, Audi and Subaru don't use a front diff, they just push the engine all of the way up in front of the front axle and pull the front half shafts off of the transmission.
They have a front diff. When a a diff an trans are integrated it's called a transaxle.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 10, 2020, 01:49 PM
 
Once my ix just stopped dead. Engine was still running, but was no longer moving the wheels.

I may have been doing donuts in an iced over parking lot, or I may have not. Pics or it didn’t happen.
     
Laminar
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Nov 10, 2020, 06:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNNFamous View Post
They have a front diff. When a a diff an trans are integrated it's called a transaxle.
lol
     
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Nov 11, 2020, 12:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
In comparison, Audi and Subaru don't use a front diff
Lol.
     
Laminar
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Nov 11, 2020, 07:59 AM
 
Context.

This saves some weight and complexity by eliminating the need for a front driveshaft, separate front differential, and axle housing.
Please stop trying to ruin this thread for everyone.
     
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Nov 11, 2020, 11:03 AM
 
Still a false statement.
     
Laminar
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Nov 11, 2020, 12:50 PM
 
👌...
     
Doc HM
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Nov 11, 2020, 01:41 PM
 
aaaand we're off!
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
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Nov 11, 2020, 02:10 PM
 
I also hate how you can't see out of modern cars, but I understand why.

1) We want the fuel consumption to be low, so the drag has to be low, which means that the ceiling should be as low as possible, and sloping in the back.
2) Safety rules for pedestrians mean that you lose lots of points if the pedestrian is thrown onto the hood (becuase then they hit the hard windscreen) so the front has to be high and flat.
3) A high front means that the shoulders will be high as well, because the lines from the side look strange if you don't do that. High shoulders also allow large wheels, which look great.

In total, the side windows will be small because the shoulders are high. The rear window will be tiny because the shoulders are high and the roof slopes. The windscreen won't be small exactly, but the high front means that it is hard to see anything in front of the car anyway.

The alternative to all of this is an external airbag that pops up to cover the windscreen from outside. The the front can be low and the entire thing can look more like a sportscar, but of course those airbags are expensive to fit and expensive to replace if they trigger.
The new Mac Pro has up to 30 MB of cache inside the processor itself. That's more than the HD in my first Mac. Somehow I'm still running out of space.
     
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Nov 11, 2020, 03:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
2) Safety rules for pedestrians mean that you lose lots of points if the pedestrian is thrown onto the hood (becuase then they hit the hard windscreen) so the front has to be high and flat.
I thought it was the opposite. They went from a nice, attractive fascia on the Mustang in 2017 to a horrendous Neanderthal forehead looking thing for 2018 due to pedestrian safety.



     
mindwaves
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Nov 11, 2020, 08:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Jalopnik had a funny bit on this where they photoshopped out the fake area of the grill of several cars.
Thanks. Take a look at the new all electric iX. The grill is all fake, but yet has a grill.

     
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Nov 11, 2020, 09:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by mindwaves View Post
Thanks. Take a look at the new all electric iX. The grill is all fake, but yet has a grill.

What's worse, it is an overweight SUV that seems like a bad fit for every market but North America. For reasons I don't understand you cannot use the space under the hood as a frunk. And it has the same ugly look as the new 4-series. No thank you. I don't want to sound hysteric or over-the-top, but I don't think BMW is going to survive the shift to EVs, even though they had an edge early on.
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Doc HM
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Nov 12, 2020, 05:52 AM
 
BMW's styling never recovered from Bangle's work on their cars.

I struggle to think of a modern car that has any degree of elegance whatsoever. I suspect its the zeitgeist. We live in angry, defensive unsettled times and built things reflect that.

Also I theorise that we get the environment that we expect in that designers, stylists, architects etc are influenced by the idea of modernity and futurism that they grew up in. The current crop of people senior enough to have influence grew up with that Blade Runner dystopian imagery. Look at how modern Land Rover's mimic the styling clues on the Stallone Judge Dredd film taxi's, which were penned by junior designers now in more senior positions.
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OreoCookie
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Nov 12, 2020, 08:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
BMW's styling never recovered from Bangle's work on their cars.
The pre-Bangle era of BMWs and the 1980s/early 1990s of Mercedes were really a time of every elegant, nice design. Ditto for Audis that just looked right.
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
I struggle to think of a modern car that has any degree of elegance whatsoever. I suspect its the zeitgeist. We live in angry, defensive unsettled times and built things reflect that.
Agreed. I can think of a few like the Honda e, which looks friendly, modern and decidedly unaggressive. But most cars leave me completely unexcited or I strongly dislike them even.
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Also I theorise that we get the environment that we expect in that designers, stylists, architects etc are influenced by the idea of modernity and futurism that they grew up in.
Modernity and futurism doesn’t necessarily have to mean aggressive and lots of fake design elements. The Honda e is modern. The interior of Teslas is modern. The interior of a BMW i3 is modern. Most cars seem to be designed by guys for an increasingly smaller group of guys.
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Nov 14, 2020, 02:35 AM
 
Fake grilles are dumb, as is the fact nearly every sporty car uses gloss black hexagonal plastic for them - seriously, they all do it. Ford, VW, Toyota...

And yeah, cars are huge. I wish manufacturers would keep the models roughly the same size each generation vs. this current practice where they make it so big that every ~10 years they have to split in a new, ‘smaller’ model. The Accord is basically a fullsize car nowadays. My ‘94 Accord was smaller then the current Civic.
     
 
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