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Smooth Election Transition vs Possible Autocrat Coup
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Doc HM
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Nov 20, 2020, 06:59 AM
 
It's the election that keeps on giving. Apart for destroying democracy that is.
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subego
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Nov 20, 2020, 02:04 PM
 
I posit US democracy isn’t that fragile.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 20, 2020, 06:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I posit US democracy isn’t that fragile.
Looks like you're going to find out.

There was a clip doing the rounds from the Trump YouTube channel where a commentator can be heard swearing about Rudy's hair dye dripping.
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andi*pandi
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Nov 20, 2020, 06:34 PM
 
Have you seen the shit they are pulling?
     
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Nov 20, 2020, 06:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Have you seen the shit they are pulling?
Yeah, but I haven’t seen any of it work yet.
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 20, 2020, 07:10 PM
 
It's not getting past the courts, but trump inviting legislators to the white house to get them to change their minds... is end run around the courts. In the meantime, Mnuchin is gutting aid programs, and they are sabotaging things for the next administration: information, funds, etc.

Regardless even the court tactic/whatever fails, in a way Trump has still ruined things. It has moved the bar on what is acceptable, made a mockery of our laws, and trumps supporters are going to continue to be a PITA because he encourages chaos.

I'm only slightly exaggerating.
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Nov 23, 2020 at 04:46 PM. )
     
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Nov 20, 2020, 08:46 PM
 
Biden should have Trump arrested the day he gets in. Tax fraud for starters, then whatever else he can find. Theres bound to be plenty. Make a few things up if needs be.
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reader50
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Nov 21, 2020, 12:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
In the meantime, Mnuchin is gutting aid programs, and they are sabotaging things for the next administration: information, funds, etc.
It does seem like Trump is trying to hurt the country as much as possible before he's out. Makes me wonder about his being a Russian asset.

I figure his campaign did collude with Russia ... their agents were falling over each other to help. And Trump kept shielding Putin throughout the last 4 years, even from those bounties on Allied soldiers. I'd long figured it was financial backing, or dirt Putin has on Trump. But actively hurting America to punish the majority of voters, that's more like a well-placed agent doing his best at the end.
     
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Nov 21, 2020, 04:45 AM
 
Does the USA do High Treason?
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Nov 21, 2020, 07:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
I'm only slightly exaggerating.
You’re not exaggerating at all from where I am standing. In fact, Trump may be setting the world back decades with this, because it is hard to complain about some tinpot dictator refusing to leave office when POTUS is doing the same. The ability of the West to spread democracy over the world may have been permanently crippled.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Biden should have Trump arrested the day he gets in. Tax fraud for starters, then whatever else he can find. Theres bound to be plenty. Make a few things up if needs be.
No please don’t, that will start a civil war.

Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
It does seem like Trump is trying to hurt the country as much as possible before he's out. Makes me wonder about his being a Russian asset.

I figure his campaign did collude with Russia ... their agents were falling over each other to help. And Trump kept shielding Putin throughout the last 4 years, even from those bounties on Allied soldiers. I'd long figured it was financial backing, or dirt Putin has on Trump. But actively hurting America to punish the majority of voters, that's more like a well-placed agent doing his best at the end.
What I think speaks to the Russian interference theory more than anything else is Lindsey Graham. He was so strongly anti-trump, and then he completely switched. He hasn’t switched back yet. The only thing that I can use to explain that is that he was blackmailed by someone, and that does suggest Putin.

Which of course makes me wonder what they were blackmailing him with. I’ve seen enough rumors about his sexuality obviously, but would he really compromise this much to avoid being outed as gay? Seems like there has to be something darker.
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Nov 21, 2020, 08:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
No please don’t, that will start a civil war.
Its the only way they'll learn.
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subego
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Nov 21, 2020, 11:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
It's not getting past the courts, but trump inviting electors to the white house to get them to change their minds... is end run around the courts. In the meantime, Mnuchin is gutting aid programs, and they are sabotaging things for the next administration: information, funds, etc.

Regardless even the court tactic/whatever fails, in a way Trump has still ruined things. It has moved the bar on what is acceptable, made a mockery of our laws, and trumps supporters are going to continue to be a PITA because he encourages chaos.

I'm only slightly exaggerating.
I’ve seen no reports Trump put pressure on the Michigan legislators at that meeting (they weren’t electors).

Munchkin is about to have the door slam him in the ass. Everything he’s doing now will get flipped the first day of the Biden administration.

What sabotage?
     
el chupacabra
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Nov 21, 2020, 11:31 AM
 
I originally didn’t think it’d ever come to a civil war, but now I think we need one. It’s the only way this country’s going to get back on track. One side has clearly drawn a line the sand & started a violent war burning businesses, beating & robbing people in the streets in their quest for a forced sharing economy, it’s just a matter of the other side accepting now. One thing Europe did right was never unite beyond a simple confederacy. Keeping the region divided into little nations has made things more manageable and allowed people to keep some of their culture & economy. Rather than have just a few regions bully half the continent the way California, New York & Chicago etc do to us. Europe understood that regions just aren’t ever going to get along that well. No guarantee a war would make each state its own country like we need, but one way or another one side needs to be hammered out. The old ways continue to prove they’ll never be totally obsolete.
     
subego
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Nov 21, 2020, 11:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
You’re not exaggerating at all from where I am standing. In fact, Trump may be setting the world back decades with this, because it is hard to complain about some tinpot dictator refusing to leave office when POTUS is doing the same. The ability of the West to spread democracy over the world may have been permanently crippled.
Play this scenario out for me.

Biden complains about some dictator not stepping down and they reply with “remember how big fat baby threw a tantrum”?
     
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Nov 21, 2020, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
I originally didn’t think it’d ever come to a civil war, but now I think we need one. It’s the only way this country’s going to get back on track. One side has clearly drawn a line the sand & started a violent war burning businesses, beating & robbing people in the streets in their quest for a forced sharing economy, it’s just a matter of the other side accepting now.
Blue cities are burning themselves down. This threatens the reds how?
     
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Nov 23, 2020, 03:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Play this scenario out for me.

Biden complains about some dictator not stepping down and they reply with “remember how big fat baby threw a tantrum”?
More or less. The point is that he would have to threaten with something permanent, because whoever he is speaking to might decide to just stall and see if the orange one - or someone in that mold - makes a comeback in 2024.
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Nov 23, 2020, 05:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Play this scenario out for me.

Biden complains about some dictator not stepping down and they reply with “remember how big fat baby threw a tantrum”?
The damage of the Trump presidency on the international stage will take two or three decades to fix. Dictators pointing out America's hypocrisy is just one aspect. Most of the consequences will seem like small, unimportant events. Such as the largest free trade zone forming with China smack in the middle. The G20 becoming G(19+1). Or other countries not trusting the US to keep its word (evidence: the Iran nuclear deal).
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Nov 23, 2020, 05:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
It’s the only way this country’s going to get back on track. One side has clearly drawn a line the sand & started a violent war burning businesses, beating & robbing people in the streets in their quest for a forced sharing economy, it’s just a matter of the other side accepting now.
The dirty secret is of course, that most of the red states have been absolutely dependent on federal aid paid in by mostly blue states. Breaking up the United States would impoverish them over night.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
One thing Europe did right was never unite beyond a simple confederacy. Keeping the region divided into little nations has made things more manageable and allowed people to keep some of their culture & economy. Europe understood that regions just aren’t ever going to get along that well.
Europe and their cultures are slowly mixing, not least because we have open borders in most of Europe. That isn't through some grand plan conjured up by politicians, but by the people of Europe, more and more families span borders. More and more children have more than one citizenship Countries like Germany or France have roughly the same level of diversity as the US. My sister's boyfriend is French. One cousin is married to a Dutch. I'm married to a Japanese. Another cousin's boyfriend is British. Europeans are getting along just fine.
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Waragainstsleep
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Nov 23, 2020, 06:32 AM
 
Not sure the British are a great example of that. Half of us anyway.
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Nov 23, 2020, 08:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What sabotage?
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020...ing-biden.html
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2020, 03:29 PM
 
I only skimmed, but that all looks like withholding information, which I wouldn’t call sabotage.
     
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Nov 23, 2020, 04:11 PM
 
Withholding information and funds that would otherwise be used to improve the transition. Because of these actions, the initial outcome of the new administration will be worse.

I have a button that opens a door. I see someone walking toward that door, expecting it to open when they approach. If I don't push the button to open the door, have I sabotaged that person's door entry?
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2020, 04:23 PM
 
Sabotage is a more apt than delayed?
     
andi*pandi
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Nov 23, 2020, 04:43 PM
 
The michigan legislators (thx for cx) who were invited to white house at first insisted they did not talk about election but instead covid relief. However, recently at least one of them has announced that michigan should not certify. Wonder what really was discussed or transferred at that meeting?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/11/...ing-biden-win/
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/11/...lawmaker-says/

sabotage examples:
Keeping the transition team away from security briefings. (in december it's reported that terrorists are thinking of bombing our embassy in Spain. Jan 22 the embassy is bombed, and the right wing news is all BIDEN DIDN"T STOP THIS!?!?!?!)

Menuchin is siphoning cash so that relief agencies will be strapped and unable to respond to emergencies. Again, biden will be left holding the bag.

Firing all the qualified people left in government, and filling the positions with various hangers on, who at best will be incompetent, at worst will actively try to be disruptive.

This is no playful "removing the w keys" transition.

(moved to new thread to protect the memes)
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Nov 23, 2020 at 05:39 PM. )
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2020, 05:12 PM
 
Trump and multiple intelligence agencies conspire to allow an embassy bombing just to make Biden look bad? This strains my credulity.

I already mentioned Munchkin. Anything he’s doing now can get flipped once Biden takes office. Biden also gets to gank anyone he considers incompetent.
     
Doc HM  (op)
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Nov 23, 2020, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
The ability of the West to spread democracy over the world may have been permanently crippled.
To be fair I'm not sure that's ever really been an entirely successful affair. In between accidental bouts of "democracy spreading" the west has managed;

Assassinating democratically elected leaders (Congo)
Propping up rabid dictators (Pinochet, Marcos etc)
Stood back while genocide has been committed (Kurds. Marsh Arabs)
Ignored long standing dictators (Mugabe)
Started wars for opaque reasons (Iraq)
Blamed entirely the wrong people for terrorism (Afghanistan)
Pretended other fundamentalists were actually fine (Pakistan)
Ignored flat out murder of democracy advocates (Kashoggi)

and so so so much more.

I suspect vast swathes of the world might be quite grateful for a little less Western "democracy spreading"
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andi*pandi
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Nov 23, 2020, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Trump and multiple intelligence agencies conspire to allow an embassy bombing just to make Biden look bad? This strains my credulity.
While that scenario is a little bit dramatic... BENGHAZI. From all reports they had intelligence about possible attack, asked for $/more security, was refused, the bombing happened, and guess who still gets blamed?

There are billions of other little things the transition team needs to know, from the minutia (housekeeping moved the movie room remote) to the big stuff. While sure they'll find the remote eventually that's time wasted.
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2020, 06:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
While that scenario is a little bit dramatic... BENGHAZI. From all reports they had intelligence about possible attack, asked for $/more security, was refused, the bombing happened, and guess who still gets blamed?

There are billions of other little things the transition team needs to know, from the minutia (housekeeping moved the movie room remote) to the big stuff. While sure they'll find the remote eventually that's time wasted.
How much of an issue the delayed transition will be is going to most depend on, well... how long it’s delayed. The longer the delay, the bigger the effect.

Right now, I’d say the effect clocks in at “negligible”. I’d say Trump has until the Electoral College meets to be pissy about the transition. Past that there’s a clear argument he’s pushed it too far.
( Last edited by subego; Nov 23, 2020 at 07:26 PM. )
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2020, 07:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
The michigan legislators (thx for cx) who were invited to white house at first insisted they did not talk about election but instead covid relief. However, recently at least one of them has announced that michigan should not certify. Wonder what really was discussed or transferred at that meeting?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/11/...ing-biden-win/
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2020/11/...lawmaker-says/
I didn’t see anywhere about a legislator announcing that, but it’s moot because Michigan certified Biden as the winner.

I imagine the legislator in question knew that was going to happen, and it figured into whatever they said.
     
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Nov 24, 2020, 08:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Sabotage is a more apt than delayed?
There are plenty of imaginable scenarios where delay is sabotage.

I guess it doesn't matter now since it looks like the officials are going to let Biden's team in. I guess they finished peeing in all the corners and leaving fish to rot in the wall cavities. Biden should have a surveyor check the load bearing walls before he moves in.
( Last edited by Waragainstsleep; Nov 24, 2020 at 05:50 PM. )
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Nov 24, 2020, 10:05 AM
 
Several generals weighed in that the delay between clinton/gw bush contributed to 9/11.

Curse this modern news cycle because I start on twitter then jump to someone's link and the next, and then it's hard to find again.

Transition-related, Emily Murphy agreed to allow the Biden team access to transition funds, in an oddly worded passive-aggressive letter, where she claimed that she was under no influence from the president at all... then Trump tweeted that he allowed her to open up the funds.
https://twitter.com/jeremyherb/statu...11115149627393

Trump's tweets:
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump

I want to thank Emily Murphy at GSA for her steadfast dedication and loyalty to our Country. She has been harassed, threatened, and abused – and I do not want to see this happen to her, her family, or employees of GSA. Our case STRONGLY continues, we will keep up the good... ...fight, and I believe we will prevail! Nevertheless, in the best interest of our Country, I am recommending that Emily and her team do what needs to be done with regard to initial protocols, and have told my team to do the same.
     
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Nov 24, 2020, 10:57 AM
 
The GSA decision and the Trump tweet that clearly wasn’t written by Trump (I mean seriously, “steadfast dedication” and “Nevertheless” isn’t exactly the reading level he usually tweets at) happened a few hours after this:

https://www.salon.com/2020/11/23/ove...sition-report/

A complete coincidence, I’m sure.
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Nov 24, 2020, 12:46 PM
 
That, and fear of Katie Porter's whiteboard.
     
el chupacabra
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Nov 24, 2020, 03:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Blue cities are burning themselves down. This threatens the reds how?
The protesters aren’t just campaigning for change locally. Their protest is for sweeping dictatorial policy across the entire federation, even on the reds. Because theyre violent they are likely to get their way since violence gets results.
Reds are also being attacked because business people in the city are more likely to be reds since reds are usually the former blues who gained wisdom when they started a business & discovered how economics, sociology & the world really works.

The riots would be less intense, or non existent altogether, if there was no giant federation to coerce into sweeping policy to begin with. If California for example, wants the violence enforced sharing of socialism, disguised as empathy for POCs, then it should be socialist on its own & leave the rest out of it.
     
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Nov 24, 2020, 04:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
violence gets results
Hence the meme “**** around and find out”.
     
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Nov 24, 2020, 04:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The dirty secret is of course, that most of the red states have been absolutely dependent on federal aid paid in by mostly blue states. Breaking up the United States would impoverish them over night.
Thats how I used to look at it back when I was in college & just looked at this stuff surfacewise. The idea that red states are more aid dependent is mostly a gimmick of resource flow & where taxes are paid from more than anything else. Corporate headquarters are centrally located in urban areas, regardless of where they actually conduct business... regardless of where profits were made. For example Big agro & big oil suck billions of dollars out of rural areas & into my urban area. Money came from resources extracted a thousand miles away from rural places. Any subsidies that big business took advantage of or received directly flowed straight to the blue city central headquarters where the taxes were paid from, artificially making it look at though blue culture is responsible for bank-rolling rural America. It doesnt, it's just where the taxes were paid from.

It wouldnt impoverish red states to cut subsidies or infrastructure spending as long as you didnt do it too suddenly. Those costs would just eventually be passed on to end buyers causing price increases on any resources originating from rural america. It would raise prices on democrats too making them poorer than they already believe they are. It might also cut some international trade, which would again, raise prices on our imports for both blues & reds. If liberal argument was that we should cut government subsidies, welfare, & infrastructure spending on red areas, then they have no argument from me. Government needs to stop manipulating markets. But that's not liberal's argument, they just use this scenario to justify even more big government interference which will inevitability lead to a growing bird nest of overcomplicated corrupt bureaucracy.

Farming is the oldest profession. It's not the profession of poverty & suffering like governments & their worshipers have professed for ages. Governments have spread this propaganda worldwide over the generations when they need an excuse to seize land from farming communities who considered themselves largely independent & unneeding of most government's services. When government gives subsidies it's for market manipulation & other corrupt reasons not to be aspired for.
Europe and their cultures are slowly mixing, not least because we have open borders in most of Europe. That isn't through some grand plan conjured up by politicians, but by the people of Europe, more and more families span borders.
My argument isnt that Europeans arent coming together at all. The US is mistakenly believed to be the most behind in this regard, when in fact the US is ahead of Europe in all things regarding diversity, racism & cultural melting pot in general. Im not sure cultural melting pot is a good thing... but liberals claim it's awesome. The current violence in the US suggests there's possible limits to how much melting-pot a large society can handle.
More and more children have more than one citizenship Countries like Germany or France have roughly the same level of diversity as the US. My sister's boyfriend is French. One cousin is married to a Dutch. I'm married to a Japanese. Another cousin's boyfriend is British. Europeans are getting along just fine.
One white European marrying another white European a state away, doesnt compare to the diversity in the US. Do you see how this comes from your frame of reference of believing a French person to be so different from a German that you consider that diversity? In the US if I married someone from 500 miles away that would be like marrying someone from Louisiana... We wouldnt call that diversity because we arent a confederacy like that. Our unique statehood cultures have mostly been washed away over the ages, something EU rulers have been trying to do between European nations but failing. One of my ex's is black & she spent most of her childhood growing up in Germany. She said blacks were extremely far & few between - to the extent that many Germans idolized her for all the wrong reasons, like believing most American blacks are fun hip wealthy media stars. In my city (the 4th largest urban center in the US) 1 out of 4 people is white. Most people young & old in the Vietnamese & Chinese sector dont speak English. Most older Hispanics dont speak English either, and there's little need to. A quick wiki shows that theres only ~5% of blacks & Asians combined in Berlin, other cities it's likely less. 71% arent just white, but ethnic German. To the extent Europeans get along better it's because you're a confederacy. But to the EU's frustrations, ya'll cant get along well enough to unite your states like the US has.
     
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Nov 24, 2020, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
business people in the city are more likely to be reds since reds are usually the former blues who gained wisdom when they started a business & discovered how economics, sociology & the world really works.
The conservative delusion in a nutshell.
     
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Nov 24, 2020, 05:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
business people in the city are more likely to be reds since reds are usually the former blues who gained wisdom when they started a business & discovered how economics, sociology & the world really works.
business people in the city are more likely to be reds since reds are usually the former blues who gained wisdom wealth when they started a business & discovered how economics, sociology & the world really works. then got greedy and decided they didn't like paying taxes.

Translated for you.
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Nov 24, 2020, 09:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Thats how I used to look at it back when I was in college & just looked at this stuff surfacewise. The idea that red states are more aid dependent is mostly a gimmick of resource flow & where taxes are paid from more than anything else. Corporate headquarters are centrally located in urban areas, regardless of where they actually conduct business... regardless of where profits were made. For example Big agro & big oil suck billions of dollars out of rural areas & into my urban area. Money came from resources extracted a thousand miles away from rural places. Any subsidies that big business took advantage of or received directly flowed straight to the blue city central headquarters where the taxes were paid from, artificially making it look at though blue culture is responsible for bank-rolling rural America. It doesnt, it's just where the taxes were paid from.
I think that’s a whole lot of wishful thinking. Wealth is concentrating in urban areas with which companies that settle in urban areas can buy more e. g. land or mining rights in rural communities. If the US split up, then red states stand much more to lose. In the worst case, companies with significant investment in red states would be considered “foreign” investors. So what? International corporations do not pay taxes where they make their business. Apple doesn’t pay 25 % of its tax burden in Europe just because it 25 % of its revenue is generated there (I made up the numbers, but you get my point). What makes you think a Red State Union would fare any differently?
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
It wouldnt impoverish red states to cut subsidies or infrastructure spending as long as you didnt do it too suddenly. Those costs would just eventually be passed on to end buyers causing price increases on any resources originating from rural america.
Well, if rural America only makes low-grade products at the very beginning of the value chain, then they don’t profit very much from that. If Kellog’s buys corn from the Red State Union and they make corn flakes out of it, where does the added value accrue? Corn farmers won’t see any of the added value. Or think of Tesla, how much of the added value do the communities see where Musk wants to mine lithium and other precious metals?
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Farming is the oldest profession. It's not the profession of poverty & suffering like governments & their worshipers have professed for ages. Governments have spread this propaganda worldwide over the generations when they need an excuse to seize land from farming communities who considered themselves largely independent & unneeding of most government's services. When government gives subsidies it's for market manipulation & other corrupt reasons not to be aspired for.
Sure, and in the ancient times where 90+ % of the population was involved in farming, this was a good profession. Nowadays farming is done by a small share of the population, and family farms are disappearing because the farm business is consolidating — like most other industries. I don’t see how the trend will fundamentally reverse.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
The US is mistakenly believed to be the most behind in this regard, when in fact the US is ahead of Europe in all things regarding diversity, racism & cultural melting pot in general. Im not sure cultural melting pot is a good thing... but liberals claim it's awesome. The current violence in the US suggests there's possible limits to how much melting-pot a large society can handle.
I think the opposite: I think the US thinks it is ahead even though it is on par with many European countries when it comes to the share of (recent) immigrants. What is true is that the US sees itself as a country of immigrants, even if it hasn’t adhered to that ideal equally. And I think this gives it an edge when it comes to welcoming immigrants. This has only been changing slowly in Europe, but facts on the ground mean that this trend is accelerating. Germany now officially sees itself as a country of immigration, too. That doesn’t change attitudes over night, but admitting the truth helps further acceptance of immigrants.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
One white European marrying another white European a state away, doesnt compare to the diversity in the US.
But that’s more of a preconception of yours. A lot of immigrants in Germany have roots in Turkey or former Yugoslavia. Perhaps these people pass as white to you, but they often face the same kind of discrimination that blacks and latinos in the US do. Is a Bosnian muslim white, for example? It’s not like I care about skin color, but my point is diversity goes way deeper than this. Moreover, you should not assume that when I tell you that e. g. my cousin has a British boyfriend, that he is white (he’s not).
A French colleague of mine (like so many) has Algerian roots, so she is African. But she is not black.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Do you see how this comes from your frame of reference of believing a French person to be so different from a German that you consider that diversity? In the US if I married someone from 500 miles away that would be like marrying someone from Louisiana... We wouldnt call that diversity because we arent a confederacy like that.
Yes, the culture is very, very different.
And I have lived in the US (rural + urban), and the diversity amongst states in the US is much, much smaller than the cultural diversity within Europe. Just imagine if in each of the 50 states there’d be another official language. Just to name one aspect, literature: most European countries have their own language, so the books that are considered great literary pieces have for a long time remained known only to people in that country. Who is the Slovenian Goethe? I have no idea.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
One of my ex's is black & she spent most of her childhood growing up in Germany. She said blacks were extremely far & few between - to the extent that many Germans idolized her for all the wrong reasons, like believing most American blacks are fun hip wealthy media stars.
And the reason for that is obvious: Germany hasn’t had a history of African slaves being imported into the country, and only a very short history of colonialism. Limiting your gaze to people who look different to you (apparently blacks and Asians) gives you only a very inaccurate picture of immigration. Eastern Germany has had some limited numbers of immigrants from Vietnam who came as part of the East German guest worker program. For example, to me Latinos are white, because this category doesn’t exist in Europe. But nevertheless, I do understand perfectly well that latinos are treated differently in the US.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
In my city (the 4th largest urban center in the US) 1 out of 4 people is white.
In Munich, the city I lived for quite a while about 30 % of the population is not German. If you include German citizens with a background of migration (meaning either they, their parents or their grandparents have immigrated to Germany), it is about 45 %. Berlin is on the lower end of the spectrum, in Frankfurt it is close to 50 %, in Cologne 33 %. For reference, the German average is 12.4 % + 14.6 % = 26.0 % (which includes non-Germans and Germans with non-German ancestry within the last two generations). For comparison, the share of immigrants amongst the US population is 14.4 %. The share in some European countries such as Switzerland is even higher in relative terms.
Originally Posted by el chupacabra View Post
Most people young & old in the Vietnamese & Chinese sector dont speak English. Most older Hispanics dont speak English either, and there's little need to.
You see this phenomenon with first-gen immigrants from e. g. Turkey at times, too, especially since Germany did not do a good job integrating them. The newer generation is fluent, though.
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