[Salty]

Please not the new iTunes bars. I am so thankful those aren't showing up elsewhere in leopard. I genuinely hope that iTunes 8 is out soon and brings back the aqua bars. The new ones are just ugly. I mean, I don't NEED aqua bars, I just need something that isn't fugly like the new iTunes ones.

The blue bit in the dock is dumb and harder to see than the arrow that used to be under open apps, I hope they bring it back, otherwise I'll be editing the dock.app of every Mac I use. The new menu bar is nice, takes some getting used to, not the best not the worst, if I had my choice though I'd set it back to normal.
Stacks is cool, spaces, I think they should give an option for turning off the animation, or slowing it down or something, honestly I think it gives me a bit of a head ache. I kind of wish I had another mouse button to assign as F8, since that would make switching less jarring.
The new dock is fine but I don't like it more than the old one, takes more space, and the shadows above apps are just plain bad looking if you have a light background. Stacks need more options for layout though.
The new default folder icons are FUGLY. The whole 512/512 thing is nice, but the new ones, they're trying to make them look like paper I guess, but they look more like puked on stone. They're all washed out and stuff. They just look bad.

Lastly Pages files get no preview, that's just dumb. Hopefully with the final version or iWork 07/08 they'll fix that. Why is it that Apple goes and makes Pages (a great program) and then goes and basically stops developing it!?

Of course I'm focusing on all the bad stuff. Spaces, Stacks, Time Machine, are all great. The new Quicktime player does full screen for free finally, and in general it seems lots of apps have nice new features. And spell check now will open and close when you hit the hot key. (Command ; will now check the next one while not necessarily opening the window... which is good I got sick of closing the damn thing.)

[Kevin]

The new iTunes look is awesome. Even the scroll bars IMHO. Useful, elegant and non obtrusive. Nor do they take away from the content.

It seems like Apple is paying more attention to it's own HIG this time around.

If I were you, I'd pretty much say bye bye to the old aqua bars.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by monkeybrain 

Why would you want it to pause anyway? It's always seemed to me they did that in Quicktime simply because they could do it. Surely if you minimise a movie it is because you have to do something else, so it should pause. Although I think you're being sarcastic, right?

Because sometimes when I need to switch or work in photoshop it is nice to still see what is going on while the movie is playing.

[CharlesS]

Frankly, I think it would be rather hard to see what is going on if the movie were shrunk to the size of a Dock icon.

[rem]

I am saying goodbye to Leopard if they use the iTunes 7 look throughout Leopard (even without the fugly scrollbars). Somepeople, like Kevin, like it. To each his own. The point is if you are going to make a drastic change, you put it out there to see the reaction (iTunes 7), lots and lots of people react negatively, then why go ahead with that look??? It makes NO sense. At the very least, the iTunes 7 look was so controversial, some people liked it, so why not give us a choice so that all people are happy??

I am not going to pay to look at those ugly buttons all day. Its dull and boring. And from my experience updating iTunes 7 back to aqua everytime there is an update, I am NOT going to do that every time and will not buy a third party solution that Apple's updates may break.

If Apple doesn't get it, I am out.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by rem 

I am saying goodbye to Leopard if they use the iTunes 7 look throughout Leopard (even without the fugly scrollbars). Somepeople, like Kevin, like it. To each his own. The point is if you are going to make a drastic change, you put it out there to see the reaction (iTunes 7), lots and lots of people react negatively, then why go ahead with that look??? It makes NO sense. At the very least, the iTunes 7 look was so controversial, some people liked it, so why not give us a choice so that all people are happy??

I am not going to pay to look at those ugly buttons all day. Its dull and boring. And from my experience updating iTunes 7 back to aqua everytime there is an update, I am NOT going to do that every time and will not buy a third party solution that Apple's updates may break.

If Apple doesn't get it, I am out.

Rem,

OS X is an operating system on a computer that people do work on. Whether the buttons are ugly or not in your opinion does not affect one's ability to get work done. The reason to upgrade to Leopard is because a new feature will allow you to get more work done in a faster period of time. For me, the Finder alone is worth it (although, in a way I will resent paying for this when this should have been corrected years ago). Pretty GUI elements such as buttons are icing, not a feature.

And, please don't make an argument for "usability". This word is tossed around too much too carelessly. The look of a button does not affect usability as long as it can convey intended meaning. Whether you find the look attractive or not affects your user experience, but again, I would hope that Leopard itself will affect your user experience even more, unless you intend to simply look at your OS and not do any work on it.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by rem 

I am saying goodbye to Leopard if they use the iTunes 7 look throughout Leopard (even without the fugly scrollbars).
[...]
If Apple doesn't get it, I am out.

Since *you* don't get it, I suggest there's not much point in using Apple's OS at all, anyway, so goodbye.

Enjoy the colours, wherever you may end up.

[hldan]

[QUOTE=besson3c;3429905]Rem,
Typo, quoted wrong post.

[hldan]

Originally Posted by rem 

I am saying goodbye to Leopard if they use the iTunes 7 look throughout Leopard (even without the fugly scrollbars). Somepeople, like Kevin, like it. To each his own. The point is if you are going to make a drastic change, you put it out there to see the reaction (iTunes 7), lots and lots of people react negatively, then why go ahead with that look??? It makes NO sense. At the very least, the iTunes 7 look was so controversial, some people liked it, so why not give us a choice so that all people are happy??

I am not going to pay to look at those ugly buttons all day. Its dull and boring. And from my experience updating iTunes 7 back to aqua everytime there is an update, I am NOT going to do that every time and will not buy a third party solution that Apple's updates may break.

If Apple doesn't get it, I am out.

Well it's just a GUI. Scroll bar colors won't be all that noticeable when you are really working. While using most programs including web surfing you don't really even pay attention to that stuff although I would like it to look cool too but I'm not losing sleep over it.

We haven't even said hello to Leopard so if you are already to say goodbye then Adios! Trust me, nobody cares if you choose to give up on the platform or not upgrade to the latest. Just think about how much sense that makes. I hear Vista has a lot of useless transparencies, you might like that instead, give it a try.

[Cicak]

In my opinion, the current 9A466 is very broken from an user interface point-of-view:

• Shadows are way too strong. X11 shadows on the same Leopard are the same than Tiger's shadow and allow for easy comparaison in Leopard itself.
• Menu transparency is too strong. It's not very bothering for the menu drop-down themselves, but the sheets are not very readable sometimes.
• Address Book fonts are very wrong
• Animated background in Time-Machine is tiring for the eyes
• Transparent top menu bar is a bad idea (in the way it's currently implemented)
• The dock looks weird, but that maybe due to the shadows
• The Finder will remember the view style you've used for each folder. Although it seems like a nice feature, it's not nice to use: let's say you switch to a column view to find the parent of a folder, you click on the parent, switch back to coverflow view. Now next time you will go to the original folder, it will switch to column view; that's just annoying. I rather have each window stick to one setting unless instructed to do so.
• The toolbar icons of Preview are soooo wrong: the + for instance is not even centered.

And I don't know if it's just me, but I prefer the brushed metal look of Safari in Tiger for example, than the grey look of Safari on Leopard.

Does anyone actually like the new look?

[cybergoober]

I do like the new look. I find it less distracting and less "busy"-looking than brushed metal.

[Cicak]

The new "unified" grey look, I can live with. The transparency and the shadows () need adjusting...

[kilechki]

Having spent a moment with the Beta, what I saw didn't really convinced me.

There are many individual griefs.
UI-wise, my problem is with the dark grey windows, which is just uninspired, boring, especially with those sad dull buttons which you can't recognize so easily because contrast is not strong enough (in Finder/safari etc, the buttons in background windows are easier to identify, for instance).
Everything just look gray and dark, which is really not a good thing for many apps. I find Mail's 10.4 UI to be much more pleasant to use. I miss the roll-over buttons, too.

Feature-wise, you can see Apple tried to implement things here and there, but without too much coordination or vision. They just dropped Notes and To do's, but you can't create them so easily from another app. Stacks are great but they completely replace the folders in the dock - which means you can't drag a link on a folder to download it anymore.

One victim of the "feature dropping" is the Finder. Obviously, they tried to do something with it. Unfortunately, they had no idea what to do.
The 3 "traditional views" did not change much, although the detailed view gained alternate colors and thumbnail preview. That's sad. Column view is still the half-backed feature it's been since 2001.
The real problem, though, is coherence. Stacks use a "newly added" criterion to rank items. If you open this stack in a regular window, there is no option for "newly added", you'll just have modified, created, name, etc. For the download folder, this means there is absolutely no correspondence between the ranking of items in the stack and in the finder. Another problem with Stacks : you can choose to have 1 app and 2 docs and make them a stack. But then you have to place it in the right part of the dock. For instance, 1 script + 1 app = left. But 2 apps = right part, with the other apps.

You can see this lack of coherence everywhere. In coverflow, there is a detailed view of the items under the black, itunes-like panel. But you can't define any view option. For that, you have to go back to "real" detailed view, choose your criterion, go back to coverflow, and see how all options are not available in coverflow (you can't add columns in detailed view, most notably).
This is just plain broken. Just like navigating through stacks, or using Quick View, another future rushed feature put in there without inspiration.

The saddest victim is Spotlight.
Spotlight has just disappeared. Where its aim and efficience was to quickly show a synthetic list of corresponding with quick ways to change its presentation (the right sidebar), it is now merely a Finder window in coverflow. NO info, NO details, just a huge picture of your file slowly appering on screen, without any way to limit the scope of your search.
In all Finder windows, you just can't choose anything but searching on the whole computer OR in the specific folder where you are. This is just plain stupid. As is the decision not to exclude system files from the generic searches result. By default, the files "touched today" appering in the Finder sidebar also show your preferences, application support, whatever has been used by an app. How is this going to make sense for a regular user?

All in all, I found the beta interesting, promising, but still disapointing. It's gonna be a progression over 10.4, for sure. For now, many things are just not finished and the whole system is very slow (PB 12"). But I can figure it's gonna be much more frustrating than <10.5. Figuring how things make sense.
Moreover, many apps will really just be good enough. Adress Book is a far cry from its iPhone brother. Why no coverflow in there, although it could have made more sense than in finder? Why still no option to show the name in bold, like on iPhone? Why still so slow?
Why is still QuickTime this buggy piece of slow code? Why has preview become so heavy to use? Why no use of Core Animation where it makes sense (in Stacks with many items, names are oddly truncated with huge anonymous icons, why no magnification?)?

I expected 10.5 to be a good step in the unification of all pasts additions to the OS around a solid vision. This is definitely not the case. 10.5 doesn't know where it's going. "Whoa" factor kept apart, there really is a lesser attention to usability and ergonomics system-wise. Hopefully Apple will try to correct this as much as possible before october.

[analogika]

"Beta software".

And folders can still be excluded from Spotlight by putting them on the exclusion list in the System Preference.

[kilechki]

Originally Posted by analogika 

"Beta software".

And folders can still be excluded from Spotlight by putting them on the exclusion list in the System Preference.

Of course it's beta. But what we see here is the result of >2 years of work. The differences in final version will be the fruit of 3 months of work.

So 10-20% of what we see is gonna change. But not 80-90% of it. Details will change. I know the developers do a very good job reporting their problems with the OS, but I'm not sure their feedback allows a prioritization of what's appreciated or not by "normal" users.

Regarding Spotlight, this is disfunctional. If I exclude my entire Library folder, I can't search into my mails, calendars, etc. So you have to choose manually which one to exclude. And let's say you exclude the Prefs folder, then you can't search within this folder at all.
"User friendly"?

[0157988944]

I haven't had time to read through it all here, but I'm just going to put my $0.02 in now:

1) The iTunes look is UGLY. It is too dark. I liked Aqua and the "Jelly" scrollbars. If there is one thing to say for Windows, at least they give you the option to change the OS theme. Would it be that hard for Leopard to have a "Unified" option and an "Aqua" option?

2) The translucent menu-bar won't work unless there are other translucent elements such as the title bars, etc. With the other non-transparent windows cluttering a desktop, the transparent menu-bar will no longer stand out. And seriously, the ONLY thing that is transparent is the menu bar. Even the menus that come down from the menu bar aren't that transparent. Altogether, it lends a HORRID mismatched feeling.

I don't understand why it is so hard for Apple to put in options. If one thing about OS X annoys me, it's lack of options. Is it too much to ask to have an option to have a solid menu bar? How about turning off the distracting, reflective dock? Can't we have a "Classic Aqua" theme??? Apple, you don't always know best...

[analogika]

Originally Posted by kilechki 

So 10-20% of what we see is gonna change. But not 80-90% of it. Details will change.

That's a ridiculous assessment. The things you're describing are attributable to probably less than 1% of the total man-hours invested into Leopard so far.

[kilechki]

Originally Posted by analogika 

That's a ridiculous assessment. The things you're describing are attributable to probably less than 1% of the total man-hours invested into Leopard so far.

You want a post with all the bugs/corrections to do before shipment? I'm afraid I'm going to disapoint you.

I described issues which - I suppose - risk to stay there after beta, not how the OS is still unfinished.

But okay, measuring in % what's left to do hasn't much meaning per se.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by rem 

I am saying goodbye to Leopard if they use the iTunes 7 look throughout Leopard (even without the fugly scrollbars).

Your loss. esp since you can theme them.

'Somepeople, like Kevin, like it. To each his own.

Actually if more people than not gave it a negative feeback it would be changed. That isn't the case. People are tired of the "aqua" look. That trend is over.

The point is if you are going to make a drastic change, you put it out there to see the reaction (iTunes 7), lots and lots of people react negatively

More people reacted positively though. So you pick the side that has more people in it. You can go back and change them if you don't like them.

then why go ahead with that look??? It makes NO sense. At the very least, the iTunes 7 look was so controversial, some people liked it, so why not give us a choice so that all people are happy??

Most people ARE happy. FEW aren't. You are in the minority.

I am not going to pay to look at those ugly buttons all day. Its dull and boring. And from my experience updating iTunes 7 back to aqua everytime there is an update, I am NOT going to do that every time and will not buy a third party solution that Apple's updates may break.

If Apple doesn't get it, I am out.

Looks like you'll be using Windows then. It has such a nicer gui doesn't it?

[0157988944]

You are the first person I've heard praise the iTunes look... And I've heard a lot of opinions on it.

To me, it just looks too flat and not solid. It's too... Plastic looking. It doesn't seem to go with the sturdy image of Apple. The Aqua was good because it looked like the Aqua bars were made of something glossy and solid, not a flat sheet of dull gray-blue plastic.

And Windows Vista's LOOK ain't half-bad, you have to give them that. I'd say in terms of aesthetics it wins over OS X in some cases. If they hadn't way overdone the Glass, then it might trump OS X overall... hopefully Leopard changes that. And no, Transparent menu bar does not a Vista make.

[cybergoober]

Well, you must keep in mind that people who do not like something are much more likely to be vocal about it than those who do like it.

[TheoCryst]

I figure I might as well chime in here: I like the iTunes look. It took me a bit to get used to, but I find the simple gradients to be far more aesthetically pleasing than the current gel-y look. Of course, it really is a very minor thing, and you won't find me abandoning an operating system just because of the color of the scrollbars.

Just my 2¢

[Jim Paradise]

The scrollbars in iTunes get all sorts of . When I first saw them, my reaction actual was along the lines of "yuck." I've always thought they looked like someone's lame attempt at a Mac theme.

[0157988944]

To me, iTunes 7 doesn't look ugly, it just doesn't look Mac.If they make an iTunes 7 theme, they also need to have a Aqua option. The iTunes look gets out of the way more, I think, and it's more professional. But I'm someone who always liked the fun in the Mac OS. And the dark, plastic-y "Unified" theme goes too pro, too fast.

But yeah, I'm still getting and using Leopard, it'll just be a pet peeve of mine.

[frankthetank966]

Have they set a price yet?

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by frankthetank966 

Have they set a price yet?

[Chuckit]

Heh, that was a great jab at Windows. "I think most people will go for the ultimate version."

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Heh, that was a great jab at Windows. "I think most people will go for the ultimate version."

Actually, since Leopard and iLife'07 are separate products, Leopard Premium Edition is $129 + $79.

[Chuckit]

Actually, since Leopard and Photoshop are separate products, Leopard Premium Edition is $129 + $649.99. Wait, hang on…

[lpkmckenna]

Last I checked, Vista Basic includes an iMovie-like app and iPhoto-like app, and Vista Premium includes a iDVD-like app . Leopard doesn't.

[Chuckit]

All Macs include those apps. If somebody's Leopard install doesn't have them, it's because he deleted them.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

All Macs include those apps. If somebody's Leopard install doesn't have them, it's because he deleted them.

Now you're being deliberately disingenuous.

[Chuckit]

No, you're being deliberately disingenuous by pretending that Leopard somehow has to include a new version of iLife with it. Would I like it if there were? Sure. Does it have to? No. You already have iLife on your computer.

[lpkmckenna]

I'm not pretending updates to iLife are a component to Leopard, I'm saying Vista Premium has key features that Leopard alone won't give you. A cost-conscious consumer upgrading his old iMac is gonna get laughed at if he claims his Leopard update is as good as Vista Premium since he's still stuck with iLife'04.

Apple has been chiseling out key software functionality for awhile now. Mac OS X used to include iMovie and iDVD, but no longer. Consumer machines used to come with AppleWorks and WorldBook, but now you only get an iWork trial. And even if you buy iLife'06, you can't use the best features without spending even more money on dotMac.

Nickels'n'dimes, thy name is Apple.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

I'm not pretending updates to iLife are a component to Leopard, I'm saying Vista Premium has key features that Leopard alone won't give you.

Yes, Leopard + a Mac will get you those features…

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

A cost-conscious consumer upgrading his old iMac is gonna get laughed at if he claims his Leopard update is as good as Vista Premium since he's still stuck with iLife'04.

I don't think iLife '04 worse than what comes with Vista.

And anyway, OS X comes with SQLite, but Vista doesn't come with SQL server, so I guess we can't call Vista Ultimate "Vista Ultimate"?

[CharlesS]

SQLite is free software, so I'm not really sure that's a good analogy.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

The new iTunes look is awesome. Even the scroll bars IMHO. Useful, elegant and non obtrusive. Nor do they take away from the content.

It seems like Apple is paying more attention to it's own HIG this time around.

If I were you, I'd pretty much say bye bye to the old aqua bars.

Absoloutly agreed! I hope the final interface in 10.5 will be something very similar to the iTunes 7 look.

V

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Actually, since Leopard and iLife'07 are separate products, Leopard Premium Edition is $129 + $79.

Also, since .Mac is a separete product Leopard Ultimate Edition is $120 + $79 + $99.

V

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

You are the first person I've heard praise the iTunes look... And I've heard a lot of opinions on it.

I've heard more praises on it than negatives WHEN COMPARED to how it USED to look. Could it be improved on? SURE! But it looks better.

To me, it just looks too flat and not solid. It's too... Plastic looking. It doesn't seem to go with the sturdy image of Apple. The Aqua was good because it looked like the Aqua bars were made of something glossy and solid, not a flat sheet of dull gray-blue plastic.

Um Aqua was a GUI mess. Non unified, and distracted from the content. Something a GUI should never do. These "bland" looks you are referring to are used to not distract from the content. Compare them to the VERY functional and nice looking bars in OS 9. They were there, but stayed out of the way, and never distracted you with "Oh look at the pretty scrolls"

And Windows Vista's LOOK ain't half-bad, you have to give them that. I'd say in terms of aesthetics it wins over OS X in some cases. If they hadn't way overdone the Glass, then it might trump OS X overall... hopefully Leopard changes that. And no, Transparent menu bar does not a Vista make.

Vista;s look aint half bad? It's a GUI nightmare.

I suggest you read the HIG sometime.

Apple Human Interface Guidelines: Introduction to Apple Human Interface Guidelines

[TheoCryst]

A little birdy told me that Apple has seeded a new build, 9A499, to ADC. Can anyone with an ADC membership confirm/deny this?

[Simon]

Originally Posted by TheoCryst 

A little birdy told me that Apple has seeded a new build, 9A499, to ADC. Can anyone with an ADC membership confirm/deny this?

Yep.

http://www.macrumors.com/2007/07/25/...to-developers/
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...ard_build.html

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Oh goodie, it is much more buggy but faster.

[rubaiyat]

The issue of the multi-pricepoint Vista may not make much clout on PC users.

I have recently been in several PC shops looking for hardware and in the overheard conversations of customers with salespeople, the number one question is can they buy the PC without Vista. Usually the salesman agrees with the customer's assessment that Vista offers little but is both slow and hardware hungry.

Being PCs, unlike Macs, there is nothing stopping users installing older systems and software on current hardware and getting a full speedboost. Not merely getting slow software propped up by fast hardware.

I did exactly the same thing when I bought my PC a few years ago and got a nice little discount on the machine. I also didn't lose anything when I specified a better mouse and keyboard as I was credited for the rejected models. With Apple you must buy the OS with the machine, and the mouse and the keyboard and whatever bad configuration of RAM, drives and graphics cards it comes with.

Leopard looks like it is going to follow Vista not just in a belated launch date but also in its disappointing lack of compelling features.

[robshoy]

Any updates to the look in the newest release of Leopard?

[lpkmckenna]

"disappointing lack of compelling features"

Uh, I'm more excited about Leopard than any previous release since 10.0.

[rubaiyat]

Hmm you're from Canada, right?

Personally I just got a new biro!

Sort of leaves Leopard in the dust, especially as it does 4 colors!

[0157988944]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I've heard more praises on it than negatives WHEN COMPARED to how it USED to look. Could it be improved on? SURE! But it looks better.

Um Aqua was a GUI mess. Non unified, and distracted from the content. Something a GUI should never do. These "bland" looks you are referring to are used to not distract from the content. Compare them to the VERY functional and nice looking bars in OS 9. They were there, but stayed out of the way, and never distracted you with "Oh look at the pretty scrolls"

Vista;s look aint half bad? It's a GUI nightmare.

I suggest you read the HIG sometime.

Apple Human Interface Guidelines: Introduction to Apple Human Interface Guidelines

I've read the HIG. I was talking purely from a looks standpoint. I hate brushed metal/ Aqua/ Unified as much as the next guy. But I loathe iTunes 7.

Once again, AESTHETICALLY, Vista looks good. It may suck functionality-wise, but it LOOKS good. That's all I'm sayin'.

I'm still getting Leopard, I don't care that much about scroll bars. They just bug me.

[Cross]

I am on Leopard and I love the way it looks. However there are some bugs... mail being a huge one and in the time its been loaded I have gotten 2 forced to reboot windows.... Its def not 100% ready. I am also seeing a problem with the airport staying connected... sometimes it will force me to recycle it (Off and then back on) after 5 min of use sometimes after a day of use... its weird.

The look and function is great but there are some small annoyances... the icons they use for the User and Applications menu keep changing and it bugs the hell out of me... I want them to stay the same I do not care what I open just stay the same damit. I have not found a fix for this yet...

Also Leopard seems to have some graphics issues. WOW plays fine but it just does not seem to like a few programs open and you scrolling to fast through the dock or watching a video... it comes and goes to sometimes its bad sometimes its fine... go figure I just hope they are bugs that will be worked out shortly.

I am using version 9A466

[JLL]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

Once again, AESTHETICALLY, Vista looks good. It may suck functionality-wise, but it LOOKS good. That's all I'm sayin'.

You forgot a: to me.

I like the Leopard look - it's nice and subtle.

[0157988944]

Oops you're right. I like the Leopard look better than Vista. Much better. But I still hate some elements of it.