Lately I've been annoyed by the lack of finish in the X Finder.

The problems are all over the place, but let's just examine a single small function. Maximizing and minimizing columns in List View.

Here are my annoyances:

I. If a column is minimized and you select a Finder window after working in another program, expanding the column all the way will not get rid of the "..."s in the month field of particularly long dates. For example: you get "Monday, Octob...9, 2001, 1:23 PM" even if the column is very wide. Resizing after clicking betwen Finder windows resizes the columns normally.

II. When minimizing columns the tolerance is very wide and columns compress more quickly than they should. I think most people would expect the column to compress when the line separating the columns "touches" the text. I think some sort of visual feedback (a transparent guide line drawing while resizing) would also be nice.

III. The compressing mechanism is not too smart.

This is what currently happens as you compress the date column:

1. Tuesday, October 23, 2001, 1:35 AM
2. Tuesday, Octob...3, 2001, 1:35 AM
3. Tuesday, Octob..., 2001, 1:35 AM
4. Tue, Oct 23, 2001, 1:35 AM
5. 10/23/01, 2:35 PM
6. 10/23/0...2:35 PM
7. 10/23/0...:35 PM
8. 10/23/01
9. 10.../01

Steps 2,3,6,7 and 9 give hard to read or even misleading info. I would argue that a more user friendly sequence would be:

1. Tuesday, October 23, 2001, 1:35 AM
2. Tue, October 23, 2001, 1:35 AM
3. Tue, Oct 23, 2001, 1:35 AM
4. Tue, 10/23/01, 1:35 AM
5. 10/23/01, 1:35 AM
6. 10/23/01, 1:35 A
6. 10/23/01
8. 10/01

You could get even more mileage out of this if you compressed text before abbreviating text (OS 9 does this ).

Why does the heading of the column go from "Date Modified" to "Date...dified" to "Dat...fied", instead of "Date Modified" to "Date Mod." to "Date"? I understand why some people might complain if both the "Date Modified" and "Date Created" fields are visible, but if only one of these fields is visible, I see no excuses.

The size field is particularly problematic. Here's the current behavior:

1. 177.3 MB
2. 17...MB
3. 17...MB (compressed spaces)
4. 17...B
5. 1...MB
6. 1...B
7. 1...B (compressed spaces)
8. ...B
9. ...

I would argue that most of steps give useless info ("1...B"? Give me a break). My sequence:

1. 177.3 MB
2. 177.3 MB (compressed spaces)
3. 177.3 MB (compressed spaces+text)
4. 177.3 M
5. 177.3 M (compressed spaces+text)
6. 177 M
7. 177M
8. ...

I would also argue for less white space on either side of this essential field. If the white space were eliminated, 4 digits could be printed almost always (more, if the finder just allowed to use a smaller view font).

IV. Expanding columns is just as problematic as minimizing. Many items don't decompress until the edge of the column is well beyond the point which the text would logically decompress. This problem is worst when selecting a finder window after switching from another program.

Anyway there are more examples, but I won't go on. You get the point. I have a long list of these kind of issues.

My question are there other folks out there as annoyed as I am by this stuff or am I just nuts? If these fit and finish issues to bother you, what issues are most bothersome?

[ 04-23-2002: Message edited by: themexican ]

[Nonsuch]

I think you bring up some good points. I don't find any of these behaviors hugely annoying, but "attention to detail" in general is what has made the Mac user experience superior to that of Windows. I'm hopeful that once 10.2 is out, bringing more or less complete feature parity with OS 9 as well as improved performance, Apple will have more resources to devote to the "fit and finish" of the UI.

[hmpff]

I think there are more important things to do first.

[someone_else]

Originally posted by themexican:
<STRONG>Lately I've been annoyed by the lack of finish in the X Finder.

The problems are all over the place, but let's just examine a single small function. Maximizing and minimizing columns in List View.

Here are my annoyances:
...

My question are there other folks out there as annoyed as I am by this stuff or am I just nuts? If these fit and finish issues to bother you, what issues are most bothersome?

[ 04-23-2002: Message edited by: themexican ]</STRONG>

Good points. I agree with all of them. But, the big question is, did you send this list to Apple? Posting here is not going to help get these issues fixed. You must send your feedback to Apple. If you already have, then great. If not, then head to Apple Feedback and send your list to the people that will actually be able to do something about it.

[b*tchy]

I think there are more important things to do first.

How many engineers does Apple have on OS X?

I think these examples might be small thing, but taken cumulatively, the "fit and finish"-as mexican calls it-of OS X and especially the Finder is a very big deal. I am personally driven up the wall all the OS X Finder's inconsistencies. For example even in 10.1 I have icons that move around or don't appear where I left them. I still have finder windows that open in weird places, and let's not even get into all the quirks of column view. Part of having an intuitive scaleable system is paying attention to HI/UI and right now this is one area in which OS X feels sloppy. Apple could and should do much better.

[xenu]

No offence, but I chuckled when I saw the topic, and then you
went and wrote the date as 10/23/01.

10th day of the 23rd month???

[midwinter]

Originally posted by xenu:
<STRONG>No offence, but I chuckled when I saw the topic, and then you
went and wrote the date as 10/23/01.

10th day of the 23rd month???</STRONG>

That's how it's written in the US.

Cheers
Scott

[ChrisBlackwell]

Originally posted by xenu:
<STRONG>No offence, but I chuckled when I saw the topic, and then you
went and wrote the date as 10/23/01.

10th day of the 23rd month???</STRONG>

You do know that it is usual for us Americans to put the month first, don't you?

Regarding themexican's original post, I think those are excellent suggestions, and would be just the kind of elegant detail we should expect (and, upon noting their absence, demand) from Apple.

[xenu]

Yeah I know.

Guess I am trying to imply that it is not straight forward
to come up with universally accepted standards.

[Fotek2001]

You do know that it is usual for us Americans to put the month first, don't you?

Yeah, always trying to be different (read confusing)... Seriously, though, why do you do dates that way in the US when the whole of the rest of the world does it differently? Also why does the menu bar clock always show the date in this format in the pulldown menu even if regional settings indicate it should be something different?

I agree with the comments about column view. This would be something I'd use more often if it wasn't so clumsy. The default column width is too narrow and it always seems to forget what width it was when you open a new window. Filenames are truncated in the most ridiculous places and the preview functions are next to useless - you either can't preview supported files, the preview shows information in a silly way or if it does show a preview it's too small to be useful.

[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: Fotek2001 ]

[ChrisBlackwell]

Originally posted by Fotek2001:
<STRONG>

Yeah, always trying to be different (read confusing)... Seriously, though, why do you do dates that way in the US when the whole of the rest of the world does it differently?

[ 04-24-2002: Message edited by: Fotek2001 ]</STRONG>

I have no idea... day/month/year makes much more sense. British punctuation makes more sense, too, for example using single quotation marks first, then double ones inside the single ones. And, for that matter, the Spanish practice of putting a question mark at the beginning of a sentence (where it would be useful) has always struck me as a good idea.

Did I read somewhere that OS X doesn't have a British English localization yet? What's up with that?

[macnetic]

Originally posted by ChrisBlackwell:
<STRONG>
I have no idea... day/month/year makes much more sense.
</STRONG>

Actually, what makes sense is year/month/day. I know this sounds like making things easier for the computer/programmer at the expense of users, but think about it - if you're scanning through a list sorted by date, or for that matter, browsing a stack of papers with a date stamp at the top, isn't it easier if it's in this format? In the paper case, you could just flip through the papers fast (like "flip-book animation fast"), and still see year/month change...

<STRONG>
Did I read somewhere that OS X doesn't have a British English localization yet? What's up with that?</STRONG>

Because Apple is run by silly Americans, and silly Americans thinks "english is english"...

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Fotek2001:
<STRONG>Yeah, always trying to be different (read confusing)... Seriously, though, why do you do dates that way in the US when the whole of the rest of the world does it differently? Also why does the menu bar clock always show the date in this format in the pulldown menu even if regional settings indicate it should be something different?</STRONG>

Hm. My pull-down menu reads "Mittwoch 24.04.2002 19:11", just as it schudd.



Perhaps it's just incompletely implemented?

-s*

[Developer]

Originally posted by macnetic:
<STRONG>

Actually, what makes sense is year/month/day. I know this sounds like making things easier for the computer/programmer at the expense of users, but think about it - if you're scanning through a list sorted by date, or for that matter, browsing a stack of papers with a date stamp at the top, isn't it easier if it's in this format? In the paper case, you could just flip through the papers fast (like "flip-book animation fast"), and still see year/month change...
</STRONG>

For filing/sorting yyyy-mm-dd makes the most sense. For everyday use dd-mm-yyyy makes more sense since it is in the order of interest (assuming you know which year you live in and almost always know the month already). Both formats can be used at the same time without the risk of confusion.

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
<STRONG>

Hm. My pull-down menu reads "Mittwoch 24.04.2002 19:11", just as it schudd.</STRONG>

That's because luckily the language (German) and the date format (German) are the same. Let's assume you would live in a German speaking country that uses another date format, you would be out of luck since the clock would still display the date in German date format ignoring the date format settings in the international preferences.

[JLL]

Is the dd/mm/yyyy - mm/dd/yyyy discussion Topic of the Week?

This is the second thread that transformed into a discussion of how you write dates.

[Fotek2001]

That's because it's more interesting than some of the other rubbish on these boards...

[Clive]

Originally posted by macnetic:
<STRONG>Actually, what makes sense is year/month/day. I know this sounds like making things easier for the computer/programmer at the
expense of users, but think about it - if you're scanning through a list sorted by date, or for that matter, browsing a stack of papers
with a date stamp at the top, isn't it easier if it's in this format? In the paper case, you could just flip through the papers fast (like
"flip-book animation fast"), and still see year/month change...</STRONG>

I don't think this really makes sense - the problem is that sorting systems for the OS are wrong, they just don't work "naturally". Another example of this is if you have numbered items, ie: 1, 2, 3... If listed according to Apple's implementation then 10 comes before 2, or 1,999 comes before 2...

The way to sort this out is to devise a natural sort algorithm (loads of issues/problems). there is a natural sort extension for 9.x/Classic I'm not sure it fixes all the problems though.

And yes *there still is no localised British English MacOS X* (Apple thinks International English == American English). IMO Apple has really dropped the ball on localisation here.

[Clive]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
<STRONG>

Hm. My pull-down menu reads "Mittwoch 24.04.2002 19:11", just as it schudd.



Perhaps it's just incompletely implemented?

-s*</STRONG>

Spheric's right, the pulldown doesn't reflect localisation/international preferences. I have mine set up for 24hr clock and "Longday, day LongMonth Year", but the pulldown still shows US spec (am/pm "Longday, LongMonth day Year").

Just for the record I wasn't suggesting the order of date abbreviation, just the mode. Obviously each system should reflect it's own localized prefs. What I'm more concerned by it that minimized columns show useful information.

But speaking of dates and HI/UI issues, putting the 12/24 time switch in the international prefs has led to endless frustration amongst the uniformed. Moving the switch to the date/time prefs (or simply having the pref in both date/time and international) would save those of us who read Macnn from reading yet another "I can't change the date format" thread.

[noisefloor]

Yep, keep giving feedback to Apple!

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally posted by Clive:
<STRONG>

I don't think this really makes sense - the problem is that sorting systems for the OS are wrong, they just don't work "naturally". Another example of this is if you have numbered items, ie: 1, 2, 3... If listed according to Apple's implementation then 10 comes before 2, or 1,999 comes before 2...

The way to sort this out is to devise a natural sort algorithm (loads of issues/problems). there is a natural sort extension for 9.x/Classic I'm not sure it fixes all the problems though.</STRONG>

Actually, at least in Column view, the Finder *does* sort intelligently (1, 2, 3, 4....8, 9, 10, 11,....19, 20). It's inconsistent, though. But it appears somebody's thought of this and is working on it.

-s*

[Clive]

Originally posted by Spheric Harlot:
<STRONG>

Actually, at least in Column view, the Finder *does* sort intelligently (1, 2, 3, 4....8, 9, 10, 11,....19, 20). It's inconsistent, though. But it appears somebody's thought of this and is working on it.

-s*</STRONG>

Ok, cool, now they have to get some hueristics for dates, and they're away!

Funny thing is, I think this was one of those touted Copland enhancements.:-)

-- Clive

[Gametes]

This isn't column view anyway, it's list view.
Carry on...

[sadie]

Originally posted by ChrisBlackwell:
<STRONG>

You do know that it is usual for us Americans to put the month first, don't you?</STRONG>

You do know that the rest of the world prefers not to, don't you? I mean, popularity aside, it really is a stupid order to put them in. Personally I'd prefer the option to keep the month written in words whenever possible, as far as "Oct 02" as the smallest option.

[dfiler]

Both North American and Internation date formats are perfectly reasonable. Americans _almost_never_ see dates in the international format. I can't remember even one occurance of this in the last few years other than some UK DJ magazines that I occaisionaly get at the news stand. Thus, there really isn't an incentive for north americans to switch over.

Is this true for other countries? I'm curious how often the mm/dd/yyyy format shows up elsewhere...

As to which is more logical, I'd say neither. When I think of dates, they always sound out in my head with the month first and then the date. (IE: "October 21st" rather than "The 21st of October") Ever notice how some language put adjective before nouns and others put them after nouns?

Using the order that you are used to is simply the most efficient way to do things. While switching over would appease the standardization mongers, it would disrupt nearly everyone's work flow. Since we never see the dd/mm/yyyy format, why would we want to invest time and money in the change over.

Originally posted by sadie:
<STRONG>

You do know that the rest of the world prefers not to, don't you? I mean, popularity aside, it really is a stupid order to put them in. Personally I'd prefer the option to keep the month written in words whenever possible, as far as "Oct 02" as the smallest option.</STRONG>

[b*tchy]

Well, not to detract from this fascinating conversation on dates (btw the proper solution is to let the user choose the order/format of the date in the international preferences), but here's another one of those finder HI inconsistencies that drives me crazy. In the column view's preview pane applications and documents without previews function as big icons (you can drag them to an application or double click on them), but documents with previews (like jpegs) can not be used as icons. This is especially maddening when you are trying to open something and the animation moves the actual icon out view. The fix for this is simple. Let all previews function also as big icons!

[road runner]

Originally posted by sadie:
<STRONG>

You do know that the rest of the world prefers not to, don't you? I mean, popularity aside, it really is a stupid order to put them in. Personally I'd prefer the option to keep the month written in words whenever possible, as far as "Oct 02" as the smallest option.</STRONG>

Instead of fighting over the correct date you could all just use the ISO standard for date format, ie ISO 8601, YYYY-MM-DD, being seperated by either dashes or nothing at all.

[kennethmac2000]

How come I didn't find this thread before now!? I think I'll have to employ someone to check for threads that turn into conversations about date formats.

Anyway, as everyone who read the last two pages of the thread '10.1.4 is OUT!' will know, the US date format is clearly an abomination and should be abolished forthwith.

Further, to admit that Americans almost never come into contact with the date format that is used by almost every other country on the planet just goes to show how isolated from, and ignorant about, the rest of the world US citizens really are.

[barbarian]

Finder HI/UI issues that drive me nuts-all these things, at least to my eyes, seem to indicate a lack of attention to detail.

Problem:No indication that Classic is running. No simple way to make classic "sleep" or to quit it from the finder.

The Fix: finder icon in the dock should change to show classic is running (half of the face could turn another color). Also we should be able to start and kill classic from the dock using the finder icon's popup.

Problem:The finder forgets things. Icon positions are lost. Window positions are lost. Column widths are not remembered. Hard disk locations on the desktop are lost.

The Fix: Remember 'em!

Problem:We don't have enough control over the way the finder looks. There is no tight grid spacing option in icon view. No way to control the font style on the desktop. No control over alias style. No control over the system font. These are matters of personal preference, of course, but you want your OS to feel like your own. I for one, despise the way apple renders icon labels on the desktop.

The Fix: At a minimum, add hooks to these things so a Tinkertool-style program can access them. Better yet, include these in finder prefs/views.

Problem:Any finder item with a preview can't be used as an icon from the preview window. Note that finder items without icons can be used as icons.
To test this:
a) Fire up photoshop and save a picture as a .psd file and 'export to web' the same picture as a .jpg file.
b) Now navigate to the pictures in the Finder in column view. Both files appear to have previews, but the "preview" for the photoshop file is just a large icon. Try dragging the "preview" image to drop it onto a dock app. You can drag the .psd image, but not the .jpg image. This holds true for all Finder generated previews. Bad. Bad. Bad. This is made worse by the fact that the draggable .psd preview can be dragged and dropped but still does not function as a full icon... you can't drop a contextual menu off it for example.

The Fix: Make previews function as first class citizens. Allow the user to drag and drop (and double click and drop contextual menus off of) all previews (including quicktime and text previews).

Problem:Lack of font control. Some people with reading Problem:s need larger fonts. Others, like myself, prefer smaller fonts. I actually find the smaller fonts more legible. This might seem counter intuitive, but fire up SNAX and set the font size to 9. Then put a finder window next to it and arrage the column areas so they are equal height. With 16x16 icons the finder displays exactly the same number of items as SNAX, but SNAX by giving you more white space around the text. For many people that white space makes reading the text more legible. Also some people have special needs. For example when I program I want a font that marks zeros with a slash.

The Fix: A preference that lets you change the finder font size/face. Better yet, would buttons in the custom toolbar window for larger/smaller fonts (as in IE).

Problem:Files for text and graphics dragged to the finder are not created at the point where they are dropped. This is bad because it makes things feel less tangible. People expect the results of a drop to appear at the point where they drop it. This makes the finder more spatial and helps people find things.

The Fix: always generate the file at the point where it is dropped.

Problem:con and window positions and view states are sometimes forgotten by the finder. This is a deadly sin causing much annoyance and confusion.

The Fix: always have things open as they were left.

Problem: There is no simple way to group running apps in one place without resorting to a third party solution. Power users often have scores of program and run many of them at the same time. It is important to be able to see at a glance all running processes and switch between them with a single click. OS 9 eventually gave us an ok solution for this (app switcher), but third parties always did it better (task menu bar is the best OS 9 solution as it takes no workspace real estate). OS X, of course has the dock, but when you have 40 or 50 items down there, finding running processes is (no pun intended), a drag. Dragthing offers the best solution I have found so far (a small customizable process dock), but I think Apple can do better. [as an unrelated issue, LaunchBar is by far the best launcher I have found]

The Fix: Offering a detachable process dock that could be moved anywhere on the screen (including the menubar), seems to me to be the best solution. A less good solution would be to offer grouping options in the dock (this is a less good solution because it would require dock items to move around).

Problem:The X finder burns way too much screen real estate. While I can hide the dock and hide the finder, that is not the point. I want a reasonable sized window with the ability to get at my programs and switch between them in a space efficient way. With labels and an info strip enabled, the finder toolbar is almost 80 pixels high. This is great for newbies, but when you have lots of programs running and tons of files to go through, the screen quickly becomes a jumbled mess (I have this Problem: and I have dual cinema displays... I can only imagine how some poor slob on an iBook manages).

The Fix: Ideally we would have an option for small icons and small fonts in the toolbars. Spring loaded folders will help. A smaller font would help. A process dock in the menu bar would allow us to hide the main dock and still quickly swtich between apps. Multiple desktops (like Be OS) would allow us to configure multiple workspaces and switch between them with ease.

[ 05-05-2002: Message edited by: barbarian ]

[Judge_Fire]

To answer the original question: yeah, this deterioration of the Feel in "Look & Feel" really hurts me. Just like how some people think skins are the UI...

To add to the list above, I have a pet inconsistency I've seen some OS X newbies run into:

Problem: Icon behaviour in Finder varies. Dragging an icon from the Dock to a Window toolbar fails, vaporizing the Dock icon(!), for example.

Fix: Ideas? Dumb as it sounds, perhaps a confirm dialog before vaporizing anything, while allowing dragging from one domain(Dock) to another (Desktop, Toolbar etc.)?

On a similar note, if an Apple- made multi- button mouse materializes, I hope they haven't lowered their standards to accept the currently existing solutions with easily confused, 'equal' looking buttons. The one button approach has great advantages for newbies, but it's foolish to think you couldn't design an accessible, yet easy to use multi- button mouse.

Going OT, so better finish up...

J

[b*tchy]

Dumb as it sounds, perhaps a confirm dialog before vaporizing anything, while allowing dragging from one domain(Dock) to another (Desktop, Toolbar etc.)?

I hate this idea. One of the nice things about the dock is how simple it is to add/delete things.

As to newbies getting confused, I would argue that the dock is something they learn fast-usually in one sitting.

I think Apple could go a long way in helping first time users if they provided an OS X training program (like the introduction to Macintosh program that came with all Macs way back when). Believe it or not there are still people out there buying Macs who have never used a mouse and need to "learn" how to use it. There are Windows people (and Mac OS 9 people) who are deeply confused by OS X's file structure. Much of these problems could be solved with a training program or (dare I say it), a manual.

My attention to detail issue of the morning is not just in the finder, it is systemwide.

Problem: Scroll bar thumbs don't hi-light when they are being dragged. This just makes the thumbs feel less tangible. Also, because you have no feedback, you don't know if you've missed the thumb by a pixel or two until you start moving your mouse.

Fix: Highlight the thumbs when they are pressed/dragged.