[Tiresias]

EDIT: I SEE I'VE POSTED IN THE WRONG FORUM. OOPS.

Every industrialized country in the world now prohibits school corporal punishment, except the U.S.

Facts About Corporal Punishment

Today in unnamed foreign country where I teach English I saw students get hit by a teacher. This is the first time I have ever seen a teacher hit a student. The students -- one of whom has deformed hands -- were stuck hard seven times each on the hand with a plastic ruler. I was so upset I had to leave the classroom, suprising myself as much as everyone else.

Later came the inevitable talk with my employer about my walk out. I told her that in my country it is illegal, I have never seen it before, that I disagree with it wholeheartedly, and couldn't stand to be in the classroom while it was happening. In the ensuing conversation I told her that every industrialised country I know of has outlawed corporal punishment in schools, except for the US, about which I wasn't too sure.

According to the above website there are a number of US states that haven't outlawed corporal punishment in schools.

Is this true? If yes, it comes as a bit of a surprise to me.

Was corporal punishment used at your school? Where and when? I'd be interested to hear from anyone, but particularly people from the last industrialised country not to have outlawed it.

[smacintush]

The fact is it's not used very widely in the USA anymore.

[ghporter]

Why have a law against something that isn't widely practiced and isn't tolerated by the parents?

My schools (a LONG time ago) had a very seldom used corporal punishment policy-the principle of assistant principle could administer "swats" with a wooden paddle for a small list of infractions, not all of which were violent (rampant insubordination to a teacher was one, but it had to be almost violent to count). I got ONE swat while in school, for ignoring a "punitive" assignment from a substitute teacher. I ignored it because the idiot substitute couldn't manage to pronounce my name correctly, and since "Clem" wasn't in the classroom why should Glenn do an assignment?

Anyway, my son's schools did not have any corporal punishment. They had in-school suspension, out of school suspension, temporary expulsion and full expulsion, with lots of parent involvement. Parental involvement is the real key here.

But to the point of your story, punishing a child by spanking them on deformed hands is just plain cruel.

[RAILhead]

I remember getting "licks" for setting off smoke and stink bombs. It was like a ritual -- my week wasn't complete without getting into so much trouble, some teacher or principal had to bust me with 2 feet of oak.

Kids are pansies nowadays, hands-down.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

I remember getting "licks" for setting off smoke and stink bombs. It was like a ritual -- my week wasn't complete without getting into so much trouble, some teacher or principal had to bust me with 2 feet of oak.

Kids are pansies nowadays, hands-down.

I have to agree. Although I didn't get paddled often (maybe once /yr) it was often enough to keep me mindful of the possibility. Also, in grades K-8, I knew if I were paddled in school I'd be punished when I got home. My teachers would call my parents to let them know what had happened, and then I was grounded or I got "the belt"... and dad could swing a mean strap when it was needed.

Words can't express my gratitude for the discipline I received during those years, it made me a better and stronger person.

[deomacius]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Words can't express my gratitude for the discipline I received during those years, it made me a better and stronger person.

Hear, hear!

[Atheist]

I'm not quite sure I follow the argument that corporal punishment somehow makes you a better and stronger person. I believe growing up in a highly structured and disciplined environment will make you a better and stronger person.

If a parent wants to administer corporal punishment, that's fine, but I personally don't like the idea of teachers or principals striking children.

MacNStein, do you think it really made a difference that you were hit at school before you were hit at home? Would it not have been enough to be punished in a non-physical form at school all the while knowing that when you got home "the belt" was waiting?

[Rumor]

In kindergarten through second grade, at any given time you would see either I or one of my three cousins waiting outside the principals office. It was like a rotation. This wasn't terribly that long ago either, around 87 - 89 in Louisiana.

Got my knuckles racked in class (the teachers were quicker than ninjas with a ruler) and if I did something extra devious (which was often), then I'd be invited to the office were we had a nice paddle reserved for us (one my cousins father made cause he didn't think the principals original was good enough).

This was public school. If you got out of line, it hurt. A parent can't even spank their kid in the store without some jackass wanting to call CPS.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

I'm not quite sure I follow the argument that corporal punishment somehow makes you a better and stronger person. I believe growing up in a highly structured and disciplined environment will make you a better and stronger person.

If a parent wants to administer corporal punishment, that's fine, but I personally don't like the idea of teachers or principals striking children.

MacNStein, do you think it really made a difference that you were hit at school before you were hit at home? Would it not have been enough to be punished in a non-physical form at school all the while knowing that when you got home "the belt" was waiting?

It made me pay attention to my teachers. The possibility that I could be taken out into the hall for a teacher "conference" was enough to keep me in line, most of the time.

I watched a 10 y/o kid cuss out his math teacher once, in front of the entire class. Wasn't the first time he'd done it either, and the suspensions he'd received did nothing to discipline the brat. You wouldn't have seen anything like that happen at the schools I attended, especially towards a member of the faculty. In my day, we responded with "yes sir" and "yes ma'am" when we were addressed in class, not "f**k you!" or "suck me b**ch".

We didn't carry handguns, we didn't plot to kill our fellow classmates, and we had no fear of getting knifed on our way to the lockers. It was a time when people were taught right from wrong, and it was enforced. We have no control of our children because we no longer try to control them.

Our P.C., weak-wristed society has convinced every young boy and girl that they're a special little prince or princess, and because of this, we have failed an entire generation.

[Y3a]

Discipline is not practiced in the US because of the threat of lawsuits. Busybodies will stick their ugly noses into a family and attempt to bring the social services into the picture just because they witnesses a pat on the behind. So you have little brats who grow up to be major a$$holes and in turn produce even bigger A$$holes. They are everywhere.

[Dakar²]

[QUOTE=MacNStein;3196223It was a time when people were taught right from wrong...

We have no control of our children because we no longer try to control them.

Our P.C., weak-wristed society has convinced every young boy and girl that they're a special little prince or princess...[/QUOTE]
I think these are right, and have nothing to do with corporal punishment.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Y3a 

Discipline is not practiced in the US because of the threat of lawsuits. Busybodies will stick their ugly noses into a family and attempt to bring the social services into the picture just because they witnesses a pat on the behind. So you have little brats who grow up to be major a$$holes and in turn produce even bigger A$$holes. They are everywhere.

Exactly. I saw a lady spank her child in the store a few months back. Nothing major, a couple of swats on the rear end. The kid kept getting into things when mom's back was turned. Some lady that also saw it told the mother that she can't do that and it's child abuse. Without skipping a beat, the mother looked at the lady and told, "Tell me how to raise my kid again and I'll show you abuse." I about died of laughter.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

I think these are right, and have nothing to do with corporal punishment.

Right now, the repercussions for bad behavior are laughable, 20-25 years ago, they weren't.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Without skipping a beat, the mother looked at the lady and told, "Tell me how to raise my kid again and I'll show you abuse." I about died of laughter.

*applause*

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Right now, the repercussions for bad behavior are laughable, 20-25 years ago, they weren't.

That's true. That's also because being stuck in your room 25 years ago was a lot more boring

As far as I can tell right now parents don't even hold the kids to the groundings they hand out.

Take away the bedroom tv, game system, computer, cell phone, etc. and they might actually care that they're stuck in the house.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

That's true. That's also because being stuck in your room 25 years ago was a lot more boring

As far as I can tell right now parents don't even hold the kids to the groundings they hand out.

Take away the bedroom tv, game system, computer, cell phone, etc. and they might actually care that they're stuck in the house.

When I was grounded, all I had for entertainment was a book. Usually school books, unless it was summer.

[Dakar²]

I usually ended up drawing, reading, or listening to music.

[deomacius]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

We didn't carry handguns, we didn't plot to kill our fellow classmates, and we had no fear of getting knifed on our way to the lockers. It was a time when people were taught right from wrong, and it was enforced. We have no control of our children because we no longer try to control them.

Our P.C., weak-wristed society has convinced every young boy and girl that they're a special little prince or princess, and because of this, we have failed an entire generation.

If you wrote a book, I'd buy it.

I think the "idea" of not spanking a child is a noble thought. In practice, however, SOME kids DO require more strict discipline. This includes the occasional spanking. I wish we lived in a world where kids didn't have to be uncomfortable from time to time, happy all the time, like the do-gooders want. The reality is that there are some kids that just need stern correction.

I wonder if there is a study on the overall effects of the declining use of corporal punishment. I wonder how the results in the US compare to the rest of the world.

[andi*pandi]

I don't remember any corporal punishment. Nowadays a teacher can't even touch a student in passing.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by deomacius 

I think the "idea" of not spanking a child is a noble thought. In practice, however, SOME kids DO require more strict discipline. This includes the occasional spanking. I wish we lived in a world where kids didn't have to be uncomfortable from time to time, happy all the time, like the do-gooders want. The reality is that there are some kids that just need stern correction.

For the record, I agree with all of this.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

That's true. That's also because being stuck in your room 25 years ago was a lot more boring

As far as I can tell right now parents don't even hold the kids to the groundings they hand out.

Take away the bedroom tv, game system, computer, cell phone, etc. and they might actually care that they're stuck in the house.

On the rare occassion that my nephew does act up, my sister swats his bottom and takes away everything but his books. I'll tell you this, it breaks the little guy's heart when his mom spanks him. It hurts him far more than a week stuck in his room with only his books to keep him company. But then, reading is his favorite activity.

It makes me beam with pride when he comes over to visit, our talks about Tom Bombadil and Allanon are the stuff of legend. If every 7 y/o were like him, I wouldn't fear for our future.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

I'll tell you this, it breaks the little guy's heart when his mom spanks him. It hurts him far more than a week stuck in his room with only his books to keep him company. But then, reading is his favorite activity.

Is there any kid alive who wouldn't feel the same way?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by deomacius 

If you wrote a book, I'd buy it.

Well, I have written a few, but not on this subject. I've considered it, though. Lord knows I have enough notes and journal entries on the subject. Perhaps when I get caught up on my current projects, I'll look into it.

[sek929]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Our P.C., weak-wristed society has convinced every young boy and girl that they're a special little prince or princess, and because of this, we have failed an entire generation.

Bull-puckey!

It's not up to schools to beat children into submission, your beef lies with parents.

I was taught right from wrong, my father hit me ONCE, and only once. I learned not to be a brat, not to throw tantrums, and everyday I work my father gets compliments on how charming and polite I am.

My dad and his brothers went to a Catholic school where my uncle Joe (who is a paranoid Schiz. now) got his left hand beaten on a daily basis because he wrote with "The Devil's Hand"

Pure retardedness right there, schools teach, parents dicipline...end of story.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by deomacius 

I wonder if there is a study on the overall effects of the declining use of corporal punishment. I wonder how the results in the US compare to the rest of the world.

Well, the UK has turned into a hellhole since corporal punishment was abolished, if that's any indication.

Interesting story from a few weeks back: Bloke trying to discipline his child, as child wouldn't go to school. Child called the police because bloke shouted at him. Bloke ends up at the station being interviewed by plod. Kid carries on avoiding school.

Here's the kicker: If you don't send your kid to school, you can end up with a jail term. But you've actually got no methods available to you to force a stubborn child to attend.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

We didn't carry handguns, we didn't plot to kill our fellow classmates, and we had no fear of getting knifed on our way to the lockers. It was a time when people were taught right from wrong, and it was enforced. We have no control of our children because we no longer try to control them.

Our P.C., weak-wristed society has convinced every young boy and girl that they're a special little prince or princess, and because of this, we have failed an entire generation.

When I was a kid, if you were going to resort to violence, it was with fist and one on one. None of this stabbing, shooting, jumping bullsh!t that goes on today.

I was jumped by six guys my freshman year in San Diego. I didn't win, but they sure knew they got into a fight. After that, any time I saw an uneven fight, I'd help whoever was outnumbered. Regardless if I knew them or disliked them.

A lot of kids today are cowards.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

Is there any kid alive who wouldn't feel the same way?

Most that I've seen don't care enough about their parents to feel guilt or sadness. They care about how they're not being stimulated by TV or their video games, and give little thought to the feelings of others.

In this day, few parents are actually parents, they're medicated to the point of insensibility and have no clue how to teach their children proper values. They plop them down in front of the computer or TV and don't give them another thought.

Disconnect the Xbox, unplug the cable modem, and get the child a subscription to the book of the month club. When they talk trash or act in a disrespectful manner, smack that butt and leave them in their room with books that enforce morals and creativity. When they reach their 20s, they'll thank you for it.

[deomacius]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Well, the UK has turned into a hellhole since corporal punishment was abolished, if that's any indication.

If you have links to information supporting this statement, it would be much appreciated.

[deomacius]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

Most that I've seen don't care enough about their parents to feel guilt or sadness. They care about how they're not being stimulated by TV or their video games, and give little thought to the feelings of others.

In this day, few parents are actually parents, they're medicated to the point of insensibility and have no clue how to teach their children proper values. They plop them down in front of the computer or TV and don't give them another thought.

You've met my ex-wife, haven't you?

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

It makes me beam with pride when he comes over to visit, our talks about Tom Bombadil and Allanon are the stuff of legend. .

Walker Boh was better.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

snip

So you're saying there are kids out there that don't care of their parents hit them?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by sek929 

Bull-puckey!

It's not up to schools to beat children into submission, your beef lies with parents.

I was taught right from wrong, my father hit me ONCE, and only once. I learned not to be a brat, not to throw tantrums, and everyday I work my father gets compliments on how charming and polite I am.

My dad and his brothers went to a Catholic school where my uncle Joe (who is a paranoid Schiz. now) got his left hand beaten on a daily basis because he wrote with "The Devil's Hand"

Pure retardedness right there, schools teach, parents dicipline...end of story.

Discipline should be taught in all areas of a child's life, not just the 1-2 hours that they get to spend with mommy and daddy each day (too bad they're too busy watching TV or surfing for porn). In this day and age, schools make more of an impact on a kid's life than his parents ever will, because they spend more time with them.

I'll guarantee that if a student were to get a good swat with a paddle when they misbehave, they'd learn a little cause and effect. I'm not talking about hand beating, or public lashes, but a few strokes with the oak by the teacher, with another teacher as witness. The improvement in our education system would be remarkable.

However, I know that can't happen, the parents would sue the school just to cash in.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dakar� 

So you're saying there are kids out there that don't care of their parents hit them?

I'm saying there are kids out there that need a spanking, and their parents aren't doing their job. The problem is, for some it's just too late. We've lost them.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

In this day, few parents are actually parents, they're medicated to the point of insensibility and have no clue how to teach their children proper values. They plop them down in front of the computer or TV and don't give them another thought.

Disconnect the Xbox, unplug the cable modem, and get the child a subscription to the book of the month club.

See, my issue is, you keep coming up with a boatload of other things parents aren't doing other than corporal punishment for me to believe its what's missing. I think its a small piece of the puzzle that's probably not key.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by deomacius 

If you have links to information supporting this statement, it would be much appreciated.

There's not so much one single link or bunch of links which really illustrate it... ...but the whole thing. You know how you build the big picture from loads of little snippets? It's like that.

Having said that, have a read of these:

http://society.guardian.co.uk/youthj...718793,00.html

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100n...65&method=full

WALES is being hit by a crime wave carried out by children who are too young to be prosecuted.

Hundreds of children under the age of 10 are committing crimes and, like older troublemakers, are causing heartache for their victims. But they walk free because the legal system cannot prosecute them.

Some children as young as eight are regularly involved in car theft, burglary and drugs.

Police forces across Wales say juvenile crime and youth annoyance are huge problems but say they are powerless to act.

Officers blame lack of parental discipline for the problem.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

See, my issue is, you keep coming up with a boatload of other things parents aren't doing other than corporal punishment for me to believe its what's missing. I think its a small piece of the puzzle that's probably not key.

It's not a small piece, but it's not the whole pie either. It's just another tool that a parent needs to do their job.

[Dakar²]

Well, I'd give it more consideration if parents were using all the other tools and failing, but as it is, they don't seem to be doing their job, period.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

Well, I'd give it more consideration if parents were using all the other tools and failing, but as it is, they don't seem to be doing their job, period.

Possibly because a lot of the younger parents were never actually disciplined themselves?

[Shaddim]

Case in point, I remember acting up at the supermarket when I was 10... taking down canned goods and stacking them in the aisles, trying to sneak things into the cart when they weren't looking, running off by myself, etc. etc. My dad simply "adjusted" his belt, and I immediately snapped into line. Most of the time he didn't even have to verbally chastise me, just the thought of the belt made me a believer.

[mac128k-1984]

Its funny how times have changed.

If I went home and told my mom that the nun struck me, she'd ask what did I do to deserve getting hit and then she'd hit me. I learned pretty qucikly that I better keep my mouth shut

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Possibly because a lot of the younger parents were never actually disciplined themselves?

*ding* *ding* *ding*

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Possibly because a lot of the younger parents were never actually disciplined themselves?

Turtles all the way up?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

Turtles all the way up?

Ummm... No habla Español?

[Dakar²]

Parents today don't discipline their kids because they weren't disciplined (Was what I understood your statement to be)

Why didn't their parents discipline them?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

Parents today don't discipline their kids because they weren't disciplined (Was what I understood your statement to be)

Why didn't their parents discipline them?

Clinton got in?

I've no idea, other than pointing at a time 10-15 years ago when it became frowned upon to smack your kid and schools were no longer allowed to hand out discipline. Small trickle became a flood somewhere along the way?

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Clinton got in?

You're pathetic.

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I've no idea, other than pointing at a time 10-15 years ago when it became frowned upon to smack your kid and schools were no longer allowed to hand out discipline. Small trickle became a flood somewhere along the way?

That seems more likely.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Dakar² 

You're pathetic.

And you don't understand rhetorical humour.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Clinton got in?

I've no idea, other than pointing at a time 10-15 years ago when it became frowned upon to smack your kid and schools were no longer allowed to hand out discipline. Small trickle became a flood somewhere along the way?

It started when society became more litigious, and parents found they could get a free ride by suing the schools.

[deomacius]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

There's not so much one single link or bunch of links which really illustrate it... ...but the whole thing. You know how you build the big picture from loads of little snippets? It's like that.

Having said that, have a read of these:

http://society.guardian.co.uk/youthj...718793,00.html

http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100n...65&method=full

Thanks for the links. I agree with your statement about looking at the big picture and putting the pieces together. I just wanted something tangible in case I got into this discussion again with, say, my ex. I wanted something i could point to and say here's proof.

[Dakar²]

Originally Posted by MacNStein 

It started when society became more litigious, and parents found they could get a free ride by suing the schools.

If you're right, then this problem is much more recent.

Growing up, I was under the impression that this had been a problem for a while.