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Iz Serioux Car Thread: CVT vs Manual
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andi*pandi
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Sep 12, 2011, 02:51 PM
 
I've been idly car shopping for, oh, a few years now. I am on my 3rd Subaru and I have my eye on the 2010/2011 Subaru Outback (new model with more cargo space, I like how it drives compared to Forrester/Tribeca). Other car we test drove and didn't hate was a Hyundai Sante Fe. (Second car is a Sonata.) My '96 is holding out hopefully til spring.

Two things stopping me: price, and these new cars have newfangled transmission options. I've been happy with stick shift, like the flexibility and better gas mileage it used to be best at. However, sometimes driving a stick is a PITA. Now they have several different transmission options, and it looks like manual is no longer MPG king. CVT gets better mileage according to them. Shifting with steering wheel paddles feels weird. Manuals are really rare around here. Two on cars.com within 30mi rare. I have no idea which is actually "better."

Thoughts?

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Eug
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Sep 12, 2011, 03:14 PM
 
Off topic, but I tried to learn manual on public roads in France this summer. Didn't go so well. I didn't get into any accidents, but the locals were not too impressed with my slow driving on the highway and stalls once I got into the city.

I normally drive a Prius, which has a planetary gear set, and drives like a CVT. I prefer it to automatic, and obviously given my lack of stick-shift skills, I prefer it to manual as well.
     
Laminar
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Sep 12, 2011, 03:22 PM
 
If you're buying a car less than three years old, the auto will likely get you better mileage, CVTs even more so. I've put a couple thousand miles on Altimas with CVTs and enjoyed them (and pulled mid-30 mpgs). For me, no amount of paddle shifters or auto-sticks beats a real clutch pedal. I've alternated manual-auto-manual-auto with my last four cars and every time I have an auto I miss the manual, but that's personal preference.

I have no idea about projected reliability, though I'm sure the data's out there.
     
olePigeon
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Sep 12, 2011, 03:33 PM
 
I've only ever owned a stick shift. I hate flappy paddles. I suppose if you get a CVT you can just ignore the stupid paddles.

How expensive is it to replace a CVT versus a manual transmission?
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imitchellg5
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Sep 12, 2011, 03:38 PM
 
Manuals will always be more engaging to drive than any sort of auto, but Subaru's CVT is pretty good. Some brands are quite terrible, I always thought that Mitsubishi's CVT felt like the throttle was connected to a loose rubber band. Early Nissans were the same. Audi's CVT is the best out there, but it's not really in their US cars, apart from the FWD A6, which nobody buys. My mom's had a CVT Outback a few times as a service loaner for her 5-speed Legacy GT and she hasn't complained about the transmission. In terms of reliability of a CVT versus a manual, if something goes wrong you'll have an expensive repair for the CVT, but that can really be said about any transmission. And if you plan on keeping the car a long time, you're going to have to eventually replace the clutch anyway. I think they're pretty much the same in terms of longevity. If you enjoy driving stick, then go for a manual. If not, then the CVT is perfectly fine. These days, it's really just up to what your personal preference is (and what's available in your area).
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 12, 2011, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Off topic, but I tried to learn manual on public roads in France this summer. Didn't go so well. I didn't get into any accidents, but the locals were not too impressed with my slow driving on the highway and stalls once I got into the city.
That's a pretty stupid idea. Learn in a big empty parking lot somewhere.
     
is not
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Sep 12, 2011, 03:44 PM
 
Don't know about the subaru but I drive my A-Class in many different ways and the 7-gear Autotronic CVT transmission never put a wheel wrong.

On the motorway, 7th is so long legged it gives about 35mph per 1,000 rpm so 70 comes up at just 2,000 rpm.
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 12, 2011, 03:45 PM
 
7 gear CVT? That's not a CVT mate.
     
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Sep 12, 2011, 03:45 PM
 
Sst!
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 12, 2011, 03:45 PM
 
For clarification, do you mean two different things when you say 'stick' and 'manual'?

My understanding of the different choices of transmission available across pretty much all cars are as follows:
'Classic' manual: A stick on the floor between the sheets which is manually switched between a variety of available slots in two dimensions;
Automatic: As above but only moves in one dimension. Some are restricted to just drive, park, neutral but some have gears;
Column shift: Essentially the same as above except the stick is on the steering column;
Flappy paddle gearbox: Don't actually know if this works more like a manual or auto box but you change gear with a pair of paddle either side of the column, one for up, one for down;

If by stick you mean classic manual as described above, how is that a pain in the ass? I've never understood why people make a fuss about automatic boxes, the only ones I've driven, I've hated and you have so much more control with a manual box.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Sep 12, 2011, 03:47 PM
 
Also, automatic boxes are way more expensive to repair if they break. Mate of mine busted one in an Audi A6 and the box rebuild was £6000!
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 12, 2011, 03:51 PM
 
Stick shift = manual gearbox, three pedals on the floor and a shifter between you and your passenger.
     
andi*pandi  (op)
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Sep 12, 2011, 03:53 PM
 
Stick = classic manual, for me at least. My first car did have a column shift. Since then I've been driving stick.

Luckily I usually have a short non-stop'nGo commute. However my knees sometimes dislike lots of shifting.
     
is not
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Sep 12, 2011, 04:03 PM
 
The Autotronic is

Never heard of Audi's CVT horror histories? It'll cost you $7000 to repair as a minimum!
It dies as soon as at 36000 km. Check the audi-forums if you own an Audi CVT
     
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Sep 12, 2011, 05:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
I've only ever owned a stick shift. I hate flappy paddles. I suppose if you get a CVT you can just ignore the stupid paddles.

How expensive is it to replace a CVT versus a manual transmission?
Agreed. Flappy-paddle gear boxes are almost always crap. The only way I'd own one is if it were attached to an Ariel Atom 500, but then that's an actual manual and not a slush box trying to play pretend.

Go stick, unless you just don't have the knees for it.
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bstone
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:14 PM
 
The 4EAT Subaru transmission is very reliable. I'm only on my second. Regarding the CVT, it's hit or miss. I think the tech isn't quite there yet.
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:19 PM
 
Try getting a 4 speed automatic on a new Outback.
     
bstone
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:34 PM
 
I don't think the 4EAT is any longer in production.
     
Laminar
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:38 PM
 
I throw around obscure specific acronyms to feign knowledge.
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 12, 2011, 06:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
I don't think the 4EAT is any longer in production.
There is still a 4 speed auto on the Forester and Impreza.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Sep 12, 2011, 09:26 PM
 
The older I get, the more I appreciate being able to hold a cup of coffee and drive around town at the same time.
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bstone
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Sep 12, 2011, 09:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
The older I get, the more I appreciate being able to hold a cup of coffee and drive around town at the same time.
I agree with this. I like to have one hand on a sandwich, one hand on my coffee, my legs in whatever comfortable position they find themselves in and my left knee steering.
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 12, 2011, 09:32 PM
 
I prefer to drive while I'm driving.
     
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Sep 12, 2011, 09:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
I agree with this. I like to have one hand on a sandwich, one hand on my coffee, my legs in whatever comfortable position they find themselves in and my left knee steering.
Yes! The old "knee on the steering wheel trick" facilitates texting while driving.
     
bstone
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Sep 12, 2011, 09:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I throw around obscure specific acronyms to feign knowledge.
I do a *lot* of posting on the various Subaru forums (USMB, others). 4EAT is as common as us using OS X. Shall I rebuild a 4EAT for you?
     
Laminar
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Sep 12, 2011, 09:59 PM
 
Bahaha. Tell us again about the summer you spent at a car repair place handing wrenches to mechanics.
     
bstone
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Sep 12, 2011, 09:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Bahaha. Tell us again about the summer you spent at a car repair place handing wrenches to mechanics.
Two summers now. They hand them to me.
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 12, 2011, 10:09 PM
 
Come across any V6 Civics lately?
     
bstone
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Sep 12, 2011, 10:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Come across any V6 Civics lately?
Yes. A few guys brought in a civic they had put a V6 in. One of the custom engine mounts had become loose and they needed some urgent welding.
     
Laminar
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Sep 12, 2011, 10:37 PM
 
Yeah, when those engine mounts get loose you have to put them back into vertical alignment.
     
bstone
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Sep 12, 2011, 10:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Yeah, when those engine mounts get loose you have to put them back into vertical alignment.
The pistons were in vertical alignment, making it a true V6. It was a nice performance engine. What else would you call it?
     
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Sep 13, 2011, 01:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Flappy paddle gearbox: Don't actually know if this works more like a manual or auto box but you change gear with a pair of paddle either side of the column, one for up, one for down;
Both have been done. Most of the mass market cars you see with paddles (up to and including performance models like Corvette) are just the automatic gearbox that allows you to make suggestions. BMW, Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Audi/Lambo, and Lexus have done manual gearboxes with an electrohydraulic box bolted on the side for clutching and gear selection.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If by stick you mean classic manual as described above, how is that a pain in the ass? I've never understood why people make a fuss about automatic boxes, the only ones I've driven, I've hated and you have so much more control with a manual box.
It's another thing to do while driving. Some manual adjustment of fuel/air mix would also give you more control, but no one is clamoring for that. On the street it's a hassle and on the track it's a detriment to braking performance when you're sitting there farking around with heel-toe. I find that I generally out-brake similar cars on the track with my SMG because my full foot attention is on braking.
     
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Sep 13, 2011, 08:04 AM
 
I've always been a stick shift kinda person (15 odd years of driving), until recently when I just about had enough of dealing with rush hour traffic AND getting older. Considering this we went for an auto. And not just any auto, it's VW/Audi's DSG. I must say it is pretty slick and super quick.
Anywhoo, if you've got the infrastructure (which the US does have, last I checked) to enjoy a stick shift, I'd say go manual. The real debate IMO is between N/A engines and turbos.
     
2001pass-var
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Sep 13, 2011, 08:37 AM
 
Not sure how the Subaru's drive, but I own an Altima with CVT and really like it. Current Nissan CVT's are very good and are warrantied to 10 yrs or 120K. If done right, a CVT is a responsive, efficient and smooth tranny.
     
Laminar
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Sep 13, 2011, 08:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by bstone View Post
The pistons were in vertical alignment, making it a true V6. It was a nice performance engine. What else would you call it?
Mmm hmm.
     
Eug
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Sep 13, 2011, 09:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
That's a pretty stupid idea. Learn in a big empty parking lot somewhere.
You only can do that for so long. (I was on some side roads for a while.) Eventually you have to go out into real traffic.
     
Laminar
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Sep 13, 2011, 09:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
You only can do that for so long. (I was on some side roads for a while.) Eventually you have to go out into real traffic.
...which you don't do until you can consistently and smoothly get the car moving from a dead stop on flat surfaces and on hills. I spent 30 minutes with my sister in the school parking lot and she was able to parallel park on an incline.
     
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Sep 13, 2011, 09:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
...which you don't do until you can consistently and smoothly get the car moving from a dead stop on flat surfaces and on hills. I spent 30 minutes with my sister in the school parking lot and she was able to parallel park on an incline.
So she was a perfect driver after 30 mins then? Right.... So sue me if I only go the speed limit on the highway, and not any faster, or stall a few times on the first day in city traffic in France.

Mind you, had I been in Iowa, it would have been a much smoother learning process. Driving in Iowa is like driving where I grew up, in the agricultural belt of Canada.
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 13, 2011, 09:21 AM
 
It isn't safe to learn to drive a stick on a public road without any prior practice.
     
Eug
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Sep 13, 2011, 09:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
It isn't safe to learn to drive a stick on a public road without any prior practice.
Actually, full disclosure: I had previously practiced in Canada in a Jeep in a parking lot and then on side roads for a little over half an hour. But that was the entire extent of my stick driving experience in Canada (other than 5 mins learning how to drive a 3-speed tractor in a wheat field once as a kid). Then in France, I practiced again on some side roads before going into real traffic.

I'm just being honest when I say I was definitely no expert after 1 hour of practice in parking lots and on side roads, so I chose to limit my highway driving to the speed limit (even on single-lane highways which pissed locals off) and that I stalled a few times in the city.
     
Laminar
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Sep 13, 2011, 09:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
So she was a perfect driver after 30 mins then? Right....
It's very clear that's not what I said.

Mind you, had I been in Iowa, it would have been a much smoother learning process. Driving in Iowa is like driving where I grew up, in the agricultural belt of Canada.
France doesn't have parking lots where you can practice until you're competent enough to drive the roads without being a danger to others?
     
imitchellg5
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Sep 13, 2011, 09:32 AM
 
Oh, it sounded like you hadn't had any prior experience. That's reasonable.
     
Eug
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Sep 13, 2011, 09:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
It's very clear that's not what I said.
No, but you're basically trying to suggest that she was completely safe after 30 mins in a parking lot.

I'd say that's being very optimistic. Her 30 mins of practice in a parking lot or my 1 hr of practice in a parking lot and side roads (Canada + France) is just enough to get us to barely approach competence. No offence to your sister's driving skills, but that's just reality.
     
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Sep 13, 2011, 10:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
It isn't safe to learn to drive a stick on a public road without any prior practice.
I learned in three stages:

1. While trying to back my dad's Pontiac Firefly on a path across our property with a trailer full of split wood (difficult/frustrating);
2. While driving my bosses' A4 from downtown Toronto to uptown Toronto (less difficult/more stressful, but I wasn't going to admit I hadn't driven much stick given the opportunity, no?); and
3. While driving across Canada on the Trans-Canada Highway (easy, as long as you can get from first to fifth and then just keep it there).

Danger? What danger?
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Sep 13, 2011, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
It isn't safe to learn to drive a stick on a public road without any prior practice.
Everybody in Europe learns to "drive stick" on a public road without any prior practice.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
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bstone
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Sep 13, 2011, 11:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Mmm hmm.
What would you call it, praytell?
     
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Sep 13, 2011, 12:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Macfreak7 View Post
I've always been a stick shift kinda person (15 odd years of driving), until recently when I just about had enough of dealing with rush hour traffic AND getting older. Considering this we went for an auto. And not just any auto, it's VW/Audi's DSG. I must say it is pretty slick and super quick.
Anywhoo, if you've got the infrastructure (which the US does have, last I checked) to enjoy a stick shift, I'd say go manual. The real debate IMO is between N/A engines and turbos.
Yeah, I have a love/hate relationship with turbocharging. The power and efficiency is shocking, when it works. However, when it's not implemented well, and at lower RPMs, it's just awful. I am enjoying the huge amount of torque and horsepower from a N/A V10, though, after years with a turbo. No lag and limitless power across the entire rev range really puts a big smile on a petrolhead's face. Now I'm looking forward to the small bolt-on SC to give me 3-4 lbs of boost, along with a chip upgrade and a front splitter. 600+bhp, oh hell yes.
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Laminar
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Sep 13, 2011, 02:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
No, but you're basically trying to suggest that she was completely safe after 30 mins in a parking lot.
Please continue to put words into my mouth.

I'd say that's being very optimistic. Her 30 mins of practice in a parking lot or my 1 hr of practice in a parking lot and side roads (Canada + France) is just enough to get us to barely approach competence. No offence to your sister's driving skills, but that's just reality.
You're ignoring the idea that a person can be naturally gifted in a specific area. My sister is coordinated. I can chuck a set of car keys at her from across a room and she'll catch them. In a situation where a person has to precisely manage what all four limbs are doing at once, her tendency toward coordination gives her a leg up on people that, say, post on the internet about HD-DVD.
     
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Sep 13, 2011, 02:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Flappy paddle gearbox: Don't actually know if this works more like a manual or auto box but you change gear with a pair of paddle either side of the column, one for up, one for down;
They can be made for either manual or automatic transmissions.
     
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Sep 13, 2011, 03:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You're ignoring the idea that a person can be naturally gifted in a specific area. My sister is coordinated. I can chuck a set of car keys at her from across a room and she'll catch them. In a situation where a person has to precisely manage what all four limbs are doing at once, her tendency toward coordination gives her a leg up on people that, say, post on the internet about HD-DVD.
     
 
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