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Waragainstsleep
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Nov 24, 2016, 09:10 PM
 
I hear Jill Stein is trying to get recounts done in Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin.

I can only imagine the conspiracy queen read that article I posted the other day and has decided to really run with it. I hope it pays off but if she gets it done and the results come back for Hillary I can't imagine anything would be done about it at this point. Demi would be outraged, Republicans would dismiss it and after a short stalemate they'd just carry on like they have been and most likely no-one would stop them. Like in 2000?

Even if it turns out that Trump cheated in these states, is it worth her bothering?
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reader50
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Nov 24, 2016, 11:25 PM
 
I read it as a check on electronic voting machine security. Researchers have long warned the machines are not secure, so the paper records should be compared to the vote totals. But unless a candidate asks for a recount, no one checks if the tallies match. After the election is certified, the paper logs go in the trash.

Trump has no motive to ask for a recount, and if Hillary does, it looks like sour grapes. So the only people that can ask are the 3rd party candidates.

Good for Jill in my opinion (and I didn't vote for her). She's doing us all a service. I vote on paper specifically because the electronic machines aren't trustworthy yet or even open-source.
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 25, 2016, 12:13 AM
 
Yeah, reader is right. The security expert in question, Alex Halderman, penned a piece that clarifies his stance. He is not suggesting to have the recount because he knows there was manipulation in these states, it is that according to him it should be part and parcel of the best practices. Recounting paper ballots (and other measures he outlines) are meant to increase the confidence citizens have in the electoral system — and, of course, it'd catch voter fraud if it actually did happen.

He is not a nobody, he is an expert on the security of voting machines, and he has demonstrated that some of the voting machines which are still in use in some states today are inherently insecure (which is why they were banned in other states). Part of the problem seems to be a lack of money: old voting machines cannot be replaced with new ones out of a lack of funds. As a non-American, I find this aversion to paper ballots quite weird: they are simple to understand and hard to hack.
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Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Nov 25, 2016, 05:15 AM
 
Interesting.

I'm all for it too of course but what if it turns out Trump did rig the election? Any of you expect it to change anything?

Without a confession or some truly airtight evidence of wrongdoing its hard to see the result being overturned.
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OreoCookie
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Nov 25, 2016, 05:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Interesting.

I'm all for it too of course but what if it turns out Trump did rig the election? Any of you expect it to change anything?
What if Russia put its finger on the scale? It doesn't have to be Trump.

I'd rather avoid all the political counterproductive fallout and talk about things we should do to improve the safety precautions and accountability procedures for the next election. (Also, why do some people have to wait 2+ hours to cast their vote? I don't think this is fair.
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reader50
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Nov 25, 2016, 06:08 AM
 
Recounts have to be done before the election result is certified (in that state). If the recount produces a different winner, that becomes the certified result.

Recall that the President is not elected by the popular vote, but by the Electoral College. The electors are chosen by the certified election results in each state.

So to answer your question: if the recount produced a different result, it would absolutely count. When the President is elected on Dec 19, whoever gets a majority of EC votes will win.
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 25, 2016, 06:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Recounts have to be done before the election result is certified (in that state). If the recount produces a different winner, that becomes the certified result.
I think the point is to always have at least random recounts to ensure the integrity of the voting machines, and mandatory recounts if the result is close — independently of whether there is a suspicion of foul play.
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Nov 25, 2016, 09:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
What if Russia put its finger on the scale? It doesn't have to be Trump.
Yes, please don't say "Trump rigged the election". There is absolutely nothing to indicate that, so don't start a rumor. There is arguably some things pointing to Russia (as in, they did get caught doing it in Ukraine among other things) so I can maybe see that, but don't say that Trump - or worse, the GOP - rigged it. Democracy in the Western world isn't doing too great right now, no need to fan the flames.
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Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:00 AM
 
Actually there is circumstantial evidence for Trump. He did say the election was rigged. Also the four states he needed to win he won by only ~1%. The absolute minimum. Not concrete by a long shot but exactly what you might expect if someone had decided to overrule the true result. Though you might be right about it being the GOP rather than Trump.
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P
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Actually there is circumstantial evidence for Trump. He did say the election was rigged. Also the four states he needed to win he won by only ~1%. The absolute minimum. Not concrete by a long shot but exactly what you might expect if someone had decided to overrule the true result. Though you might be right about it being the GOP rather than Trump.
I am not saying the GOP rigged it either. That is probably even less likely. Most likely is that it is not rigged at all. I am willing to entertain the possibility that Putin did, but right now even that falls on Occam's razor, and no other scenarios even seem plausible.

I honestly think that a rigged election would be ten times worse than a true Trump win. Even if it is revealed with clear evidence and Trump concedes, it would destroy faith in the political system, and that is a worse fate than Trump at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
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subego
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
He did say the election was rigged.
This an example of the kind of thing I mentioned before. Trump's behavior during the campaign was through the lens of being a total loser.

I, like many people, assumed allegations of "rigged" was a strategy to keep his political brand afloat after Hilldawg shellacked him.

If his internal polling reflected the reality we had on the 8th, what we were being given by pollsters, and every aggregator except for Nate, looks kinda rigged.
     
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Nov 25, 2016, 12:05 PM
 
"Hey, look what we found! An entire warehouse full of uncounted ballots!"
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Yes, please don't say "Trump rigged the election". There is absolutely nothing to indicate that, so don't start a rumor. There is arguably some things pointing to Russia (as in, they did get caught doing it in Ukraine among other things) so I can maybe see that, but don't say that Trump - or worse, the GOP - rigged it. Democracy in the Western world isn't doing too great right now, no need to fan the flames.
Sorry, I see that my post could have been perceived in this way, so let me be clear: I do not think the election was rigged, neither by Trump nor by anyone else. And that's why I wrote in the same post that these changes should be implemented for the next election so as to avoid conspiracy theories that the election was rigged.

I was (carelessly) responding to Waragainstsleep that we need a confession to find out whether the election was rigged, but that's not the case (as you can see by the statistical analyses of past Russian and Iranian elections where there were statistical fingerprints of manipulations). What I meant to write is that a mandatory recount (of a random sample) would be able to decide the answer conclusively, and should be done as a matter of best practices, starting from the next election. Not because roughly half of the country doesn't like the outcome of the election (which, I reckon, is pretty much any election in the US).
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OreoCookie
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Actually there is circumstantial evidence for Trump. He did say the election was rigged. Also the four states he needed to win he won by only ~1%.
I wouldn't quote Trump for bolstering your argument: Trump for sure would have claimed that the election was rigged if the roles were reversed and he had lost by a narrow (and probably even a bigger) margin. Apart from issues regarding access to polling stations and voter registration laws that are applied selectively in certain communities, I think it is very unlikely that there was systematic voter fraud. The former issues are serious, but they prevent people from voting rather than manipulating the outcome.
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Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Nov 25, 2016, 10:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This an example of the kind of thing I mentioned before. Trump's behavior during the campaign was through the lens of being a total loser.

I, like many people, assumed allegations of "rigged" was a strategy to keep his political brand afloat after Hilldawg shellacked him.

If his internal polling reflected the reality we had on the 8th, what we were being given by pollsters, and every aggregator except for Nate, looks kinda rigged.
If Trump was as smart as he likes to think he is, this is exactly the sort of thing he'd take perverse pleasure in saying in the full knowledge that people would take it as an accusation rather than a confession/boast. But he isn't that smart.
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Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Nov 25, 2016, 11:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
I am not saying the GOP rigged it either. That is probably even less likely. Most likely is that it is not rigged at all. I am willing to entertain the possibility that Putin did, but right now even that falls on Occam's razor, and no other scenarios even seem plausible.

I honestly think that a rigged election would be ten times worse than a true Trump win. Even if it is revealed with clear evidence and Trump concedes, it would destroy faith in the political system, and that is a worse fate than Trump at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
I don't think Trump has rigged it either. I also doubt it was a concerted effort by the GOP. I wouldn't put it past either of them on moral grounds but for me the most likely explanation of a tainted result would be handfuls of rabid Trump fans taking it upon themselves to lose a few Dem votes here and there during counting or misreport a few extra GOP votes as needed to swing a victory.
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subego
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Nov 26, 2016, 11:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If Trump was as smart as he likes to think he is, this is exactly the sort of thing he'd take perverse pleasure in saying in the full knowledge that people would take it as an accusation rather than a confession/boast. But he isn't that smart.
I am unfortunately not smart enough to parse the first sentence.
     
msuper69
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Nov 26, 2016, 12:16 PM
 
Since Killery conceded the election to Trump, a recount seems like too little, too late.
     
BadKosh
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Nov 26, 2016, 12:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If Trump was as smart as he likes to think he is, this is exactly the sort of thing he'd take perverse pleasure in saying in the full knowledge that people would take it as an accusation rather than a confession/boast. But he isn't that smart.
Typical liberal stupidity. Thinking you know other peoples minds. You cannot read minds. You are making unqualified assumptions, and you believe them to be facts. When will you start seeing the world as it is instead of your liberal fiction?
     
Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Nov 26, 2016, 04:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Typical liberal stupidity. Thinking you know other peoples minds. You cannot read minds. You are making unqualified assumptions, and you believe them to be facts. When will you start seeing the world as it is instead of your liberal fiction?
Dude, you call me and others "libstooges" all the time which is absolutely no different. And your grasp of reality is a distant second to my cat's so just STFU.
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Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Nov 26, 2016, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I am unfortunately not smart enough to parse the first sentence.
People with narcissistic superiority complexes like to rub their superiority in other peoples faces, especially if they won't realise its happening. Like when serial killers in movies leave deliberate clues to taunt the cops. He would get a kick out of telling everyone he rigged an election for himself if he knew they would assume he meant it was rigged against him. In short, the voice in his head would be cheerfully yelling "I told you so!"

But like i say, he isn't that smart.
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BadKosh
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Nov 26, 2016, 09:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Dude, you call me and others "libstooges" all the time which is absolutely no different. And your grasp of reality is a distant second to my cat's so just STFU.
Bwa-haa-haa! You didn't even respond to what I said, but went off on some typical liberal filter response. Keep showing us how well you connect to reality...NOT!
     
subego
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Nov 26, 2016, 11:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
People with narcissistic superiority complexes like to rub their superiority in other peoples faces, especially if they won't realise its happening. Like when serial killers in movies leave deliberate clues to taunt the cops. He would get a kick out of telling everyone he rigged an election for himself if he knew they would assume he meant it was rigged against him. In short, the voice in his head would be cheerfully yelling "I told you so!"

But like i say, he isn't that smart.
I'm saying it's possible he genuinely thought things were being rigged against him, and the source of that belief wasn't narcissism, but the disparity between external and internal polls.
     
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Nov 26, 2016, 11:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm saying it's possible he genuinely thought things were being rigged against him, and the source of that belief wasn't narcissism, but the disparity between external and internal polls.
A difference between external and internal polls has nothing to do with the election being rigged, it just means that the polls weren't accurate. Furthermore, Trump believing something to be true (just like with anyone else) doesn't mean it actually is true. I'm quite sure Trump would have brought up “this election was rigged” if he hadn't won, he said as much during his campaign.
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subego
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Nov 26, 2016, 11:29 PM
 
No, but if something was going to get rigged, you'd expect to find the disparity.

The distinction I'm trying to make isn't "rigged, true or not", but "rigged, honest belief or crass tactic to maintain relevance after his loss".
     
Waragainstsleep  (op)
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Nov 27, 2016, 09:32 AM
 
Trump would have been a sore loser. Who knows, maybe he still will be.
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subego
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Nov 27, 2016, 01:20 PM
 
He probably would have been, even without the external incentives for him to behave that way.

However, to what extent this prediction is definitive has been made more complicated by the disparity between what the press reported and reality.

There are certain circumstances, such as a loss due to rigging, wherein he gets to be a sore loser.
     
BadKosh
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Nov 27, 2016, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
"Hey, look what we found! An entire warehouse full of uncounted ballots!"
I feel that there is a chance the ballots MIGHT BE tampered with since the election is over, and maybe not so well guarded. a WEEK! after the election is over the sour grapes of recount appear. Code word: We've added enough ballots to get Hillary into office, wink wink. smells of a media/Democrat party distraction. We can see how small and petty they are now.
     
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Nov 27, 2016, 05:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
I feel that there is a chance the ballots MIGHT BE tampered with since the election is over, and maybe not so well guarded. a WEEK! after the election is over the sour grapes of recount appear. Code word: We've added enough ballots to get Hillary into office, wink wink. smells of a media/Democrat party distraction. We can see how small and petty they are now.
How exactly does this work since Clinton officially conceded the race? This was the point of Gore canceling his official concession speech in 2000. He was on his way when he got a call telling him not make the speech because it was getting close in Florida. This was AFTER he had already called W and congratulated him on the win.

Trump won PA by almost 75,000 votes. That will take a lot of newly discovered uncounted ballots to flip.
     
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Nov 27, 2016, 05:44 PM
 
I haven't found the post debate inflight video where Clinton expands on how awful Trump was for not agreeing to accept the results. I was watching Fox News Sunday and Chris Wallace said Trump and Clinton agreed to concede 15 minutes after AP called the race, she broke the agreement.

     
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Nov 27, 2016, 05:58 PM
 
One blogger's theory. It's an attempt to prevent certification so Trump is below 270 ECV.


The recount in Wisconsin, and the coming ones in Michigan and Pennsylvania will not change the outcomes in any of the states. No recount ever changes thousands of votes. I do not think that is the purpose.

The recounts, if done by hand, which can be demanded, may take longer than the last day for completing the official counts in a state and directing Electoral College voters. If all 3 states miss the deadline, Trump is at 260, Hillary at 232. No one hits 270.

Then this goes to Congress, where the House voting 1 vote per state elects Trump, and Senate selects Pence. This would be first time this happened since 1824, but in that case, John Quincy Adams won in the House, though he had fewer electoral college votes than Andrew Jackson.

If this goes to the US House and Senate, and the result is the same as result from the Electoral College without the recounts, why do it? The answer is to make Trump seem even more illegitimate, that he did not win the popular vote (he lost by over 2.1 million), he did not win the Electoral College (did not reach 270), and was elected by being inserted into the presidency by members of his own party in Congress.



Read more: Blog: The Democrats’ real strategy in launching recounts
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Nov 27, 2016, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
No, but if something was going to get rigged, you'd expect to find the disparity.
Yeah, but disparity between the outcome and what? The distinction you draw can justify anything if you don't like the outcome — especially since it isn't one or the other. In this alternative universe where Trump narrowly looses the election, his claims that the election was rigged might be just an act to stay in the media, but a share of his followers will believe it to be true. So even in this interpretation, it isn't either–or, it is both. And it's one of the factors that makes his time in the limelight so dangerous to the American political system.

We should all be working at improving the integrity of all political institutions, and that includes elections, so that people trust them. Recounts shouldn't have to be requested, because they are politically awkward. Let's make them mandatory across the board, so that they don't even need to be mentioned (because they are done automatically) unless there is a mismatch.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
However, to what extent this prediction is definitive has been made more complicated by the disparity between what the press reported and reality.
Yes, but that has nothing to do with rigging the election.
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The Final Dakar
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Nov 27, 2016, 08:27 PM
 
I'm still stuck at the "Why does Jill Stein want a recount?" stage.
     
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Nov 27, 2016, 08:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm still stuck at the "Why does Jill Stein want a recount?" stage.
I have always assumed she wants to prevent Trump from becoming President in a last ditch effort.
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Nov 27, 2016, 08:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm still stuck at the "Why does Jill Stein want a recount?" stage.
$$$$$$


The Mysterious Case Of Jill Stein's Surging Recount Costs | Zero Hedge

Jill Stein Can’t ‘Guarantee’ Money Will Go to Recount, Changes $$$ Goal | Law News



     
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Nov 27, 2016, 09:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm still stuck at the "Why does Jill Stein want a recount?" stage.
Stein is Green Party, Trump has already picked a climate change denier as head of the EPA. Thats plenty reason enough I would think. It also seems likely he will adopt a general policy of screwing the environment for profit every single time.
Wasn't it discovered he is invested in the Dakota Pipeline?

Then there is all the non-environmental reasons.
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Nov 28, 2016, 12:28 AM
 
You can call Jill Stein wacky, you can not agree with her policies, but I don't think I'd ever malign her integrity. There are those Trump apologists with new conspiracy theories that Jill is in Hillary's pocket, that Hillary is behind it all... which doesn't make sense whatsoever. If Jill was in Hillary's pocket she would have dropped out of the race!
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 12:55 AM
 
To make sure that the ridiculousness never ends, Trump now claims he has actually won the popular vote — once you subtract the “millions of illegal votes”. At the same time, he slams Jill Stein and the Green Party for pursuing recounts (which could provide evidence for voting fraud).
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The Final Dakar
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Nov 28, 2016, 03:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I have always assumed she wants to prevent Trump from becoming President in a last ditch effort.
This would make sense if she had said one bad thing about him during the campaign. She focused on her efforts on dragging Hillary.
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 03:08 PM
 
Maybe she realised what he will do to the environment?
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The Final Dakar
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Nov 28, 2016, 03:16 PM
 


If this is true, it's all the more reason for a recount. Right?
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 28, 2016, 03:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Maybe she realised what he will do to the environment?
Give me a break.
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post


If this is true, it's all the more reason for a recount. Right?
How does a canvassing board determine who a dead or unqualified person voted for?
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
How does a canvassing board determine who a dead or unqualified person voted for?
That's easy. Drop by and ask them. Easy day off waiting for a reply, and the cemetery might have free WiFi.

ps - if you do get a reply, you'll have more important things to do than updating election stats. Like running real fast.
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 04:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
That's easy. Drop by and ask them. Easy day off waiting for a reply, and the cemetery might have free WiFi.

ps - if you do get a reply, you'll have more important things to do than updating election stats. Like running real fast.
     
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Nov 28, 2016, 04:55 PM
 
Stein missed the PA recount deadline. It was 11/21
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 28, 2016, 07:46 PM
 
All those dead people voting, and Democrats couldn't even get them to vote in the important states. Sad!
     
OreoCookie
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Nov 28, 2016, 10:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
How does a canvassing board determine who a dead or unqualified person voted for?
That's a trope that brought out every four years, and there has yet to be a study which shows that this is actually a large scale problems. Most of the purported cases were later shown to be false (including people who legitimately voted by mail but died until election day). It's damaging to the foundation of democracy to fling around accusations of voting fraud without even a shred of evidence.
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Chongo
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Dec 2, 2016, 12:01 PM
 
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Dec 3, 2016, 07:52 AM
 
Doesn't matter, though it is interesting that Hillary decided to burn her "get out of jail free" card over such astronomical odds.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
   
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