[depolitic]

I would like your opinion on what you all see as the long term survivability of a career in IT?

I became involved with web-design about 4 years ago, and over the last four years I moved away from design and into php mysql development mostly doing contract work for small web-sites.

In the last year I moved into JSP and Java development because I saw a larger job market for J2EE skill's set.

For the last six months I have been employed as a J2EE front end developer for a Sydney company were I make 12.5 after tax an hour, to put that in to perspective for our U.S. and E.U. readers, that is marginally less then what a cleaner get per hour or an 18 year old receptionist gets straight out of hight school gets. Why so little you ask??? simple their is a glut in the market of IT professionals my employer can simple pay that little because there are 1000 others willing to work for less doing the same job.

So I am faced the my future and I am asking if it is worth pursuing a career that has lost most of it prospects, to downsizing, and changes in technology. Here in Australia outsourcing is becoming a reality, and my lead developer is talking about UML system modeling were programers like me become redundant, you simple model your business logic and using UML tools you can implement in anything from Java to .NET.

So here is the question I am thinking about going to do post graduate studies, which is going to put me in the red by $10 000 easy. Do I spend my money on IT, were their may be no jobs in the near future, or do I simple do something else, were I have a guaranty that I will have a future income and stability in.

In many ways I have become disillusioned with IT, I hate the interned dealing with dumb as clients who struggle to find the on button on their PC, yet are all to willing to tell you bout xyz. I would not mind getting into application development, however Australia is so small very view desktop applications are developed. Let alone apps for my beloved Mac its all MS this and .NET that. I have had a look at Cocoa and it is way cool, but their is zero financial motivation to look or develop in Cocoa here in Australia.

I love being a geek and I feel that I will always be into development even if it is just a hobby, the question can I make a career from it.

The questions I have you is can you see what you are doing now in 35 years or even 4 years? Will you be involved in IT 35 years or even 4 years from now?

[depolitic]

Just a bump and a comment that I am looking at your honest thoughts and feedback on this subject. My story is just that my own history, I am however interested in your stories thoughts and reflections. On this subject that effects us all on this board.

[dampeoples]

I see myself still working in my chosen profession in 35 years. I have a good deal of experience in the electrical field, and work corrections currently - a job that's not going anywhere. So no, this board isn't full of IT people - we all work at Starbucks or K-Mart or something.
That being said, with Linux coming around and the open source community wide open, everyone is a programmer, but don't let the fact that thousands of others are doing it - be the best and you'll get paid for it.

[Arkham_c]

I'm in IT doing java programming. I make a very good living at it. I think a lot of it is your level of experience.

Also, I anticipate moving into management as I grow older (I'm 30 now). I expect that I'll be a successful development manager because of my very strong technical background and good communications skill.

Maybe what you need is a change of location to a place without such a glutton of developers.

[spiky_dog]

i foresaw this happening, perhaps not with that level of pay (! wow), so i went pre-med.

[itai195]

Originally posted by spiky_dog:
i foresaw this happening, perhaps not with that level of pay (! wow), so i went pre-med.

I'm not sure the medical field is a very satisfying place to work these days, though there are certainly jobs and high pay

I was able to find a pretty good job in IT here in Silicon Valley after graduating from college a year ago. I'm not sure how the job market in Australia is, but I don't think IT is a dead end. The numbers of engineering and computer science students in college in the US are actually shrinking while the IT job market will most likely rebound. I think the key these days is to either specialize extensively in one area, making you an invaluable 'expert,' or gain a breadth of skills and try to move into a leadership/management position. And having some connections never hurts either. Just knowing how to program in a couple languages isn't going to cut it.

That said, I'm amazed at how little you are being paid! I was offered a job out of college that paid the same as a friend of mine who managed a shoe store. While it was way less than I had hoped for (and I turned down the offer) it wasn't quite as low as what you describe. One suggestion might be to move to places where there are less programmers. Almost every business could use an IT person nowadays, and the pundits say that there's going to be a lot of growth in IT in smaller towns and cities with small to mid-sized businesses (who knows if that's true...).

As far as Cocoa programming goes, I think there is some money to made from it in the shareware realm. I don't know if that's enough to make it worthwhile, but it may be enough to pursue Cocoa as a hobby and perhaps an extra source of income.

If you'd really like to move into another field, then that might not be an awful idea either. People with programming skill and knowledge of other fields such as biotech are in demand.

[spiky_dog]

Originally posted by itai195:
I'm not sure the medical field is a very satisfying place to work these days, though there are certainly jobs and high pay

true. but i've seen both sides of the fence: worked IT part time during school, programmed for coursework and for an internship at palm, and now am doing full time IT until the fall; on the med side i've seen my father at work and shadowed or talked to many of his colleagues.

[depolitic]

I had this long post, but lost it. In essence it seems that most people do not work full time in IT. Is that because you cannot find full time work, or you prefer a two-career path? If yes to the second WHY?

As for the industry picking up and the golden days returning, I am sure it will in part return however that it will never be as golden as it was in the boom days.

As for how my employer can pay me so little simple, in Australia we have a minimum wage, no one is under any obligation to pay you more in theory you could be a brain surgeon and get $12.50 an hour. However I am just a geek and my employer can get away with this. As far as I know their are no laws protected IT workers in OZ, their is no union specifically, etc etc.

[Jan Van Boghout]

Originally posted by depolitic:
As for how my employer can pay me so little simple, in Australia we have a minimum wage, no one is under any obligation to pay you more in theory you could be a brain surgeon and get $12.50 an hour. However I am just a geek and my employer can get away with this. As far as I know their are no laws protected IT workers in OZ, their is no union specifically, etc etc.

I'm probably not qualified to say anything about this (first year of university ) but why do you keep stressing that you're "just a geek" ? If you have the skills, have a talk with the employer and tell him that your work is more valuable than what you get for it. If you even think you're "just a geek", he doesn't have any reason to pay more.

[depolitic]

I had a chat with my supervisor and he told me the same thing, that is to ask for more money, but then he earns not much more then I do with 5 years J2EE experience. I am worth more I think the industry average is around $25 to $35 and hour for what I do.

Regardless of my individual and current situation, it seems that IT is it all employment today lacks that Iron Rice bowl security to it. That long term certainty that you are set for life.

[Arkham_c]

Originally posted by depolitic:
I had a chat with my supervisor and he told me the same thing, that is to ask for more money, but then he earns not much more then I do with 5 years J2EE experience. I am worth more I think the industry average is around $25 to $35 and hour for what I do.

Regardless of my individual and current situation, it seems that IT is it all employment today lacks that Iron Rice bowl security to it. That long term certainty that you are set for life.

It's simple economics, supply and demand. If there is demand for what you're offering (other jobs) then you can command more salary. If there is not, then the demand curve is flat. If you feel you cannot compete in the job market for higher salaries successfully, why not? What skills would put you in a position to get more money at another job? Find out, and work on acquiring those skills.

You'll have to accept that the best way to get more money is to get another job. The only way to get a significant salary increase is to get another job and hope for a counter offer. Most experts will suggest however that you don't accept a counter offer, since it puts you in a position of weakness (they controlled you). Just find a better, higher-paying job, and quit.

[DaGuy]

I have been in IT for about 5 years (J2EE) and do not recommend that you invest the 10K in furthering your IT education.

Why:

1. Programming is not hard and you have a generation of kids who have grown up very close to computers and programming. There will be an oversupply of progammers going forward. The barriers to entry to programming are not very high and you certainly do not need a college degree to be a programmer. You probably do, if you want to be a serious professional but the problem is that most managers do not care and are very short term thinkers. You also have a good supply of serious professionals who are not yet retiring and despite all the junk food, they are still in good heath.

2. The parts of programming that are hard and that are in demand, don't stay hard for very long since tools are built over them that virtually trivializes them.

3. Again programming is not hard, think about it, if you went from PHP/MySQL to J2EE on your own without spending 10K then what's going to prevent you or anyone else from doing exactly the same when the next hot technology takes a hold of manager's minds?

I would invest the money in furthering education but not for IT. I would consider biotech as an option that could carry you for the next 30 years. Your IT experience will always be an asset and probably a differentiating factor when competing for non IT jobs and everything else constant.

If you want to stay in IT then I suggest jumping on whatever the latest and greatest tech buzz word is and learn it and try to get some experience in it. You see Managment also needs to differentiate themselves from other managers and will think that adopting new technologies is a a good way of doing this. Of course, since technology doesn't solve problems -humans do- they are usually back in square one a few years down the road. You may be able to play them for a while.

The other less feasible approach is to support those who want to legislate proctecionist measures against outsourcing. Yes it's a question of supply and demand except that people invest top money in their educations and want a positive return. So it's not as simple as some economist may want you to believe. Remember trade is not necessirally good on the other hand fair trade is.

[johnMG]

depolitic,

Considering what you've said about yourself, don't go back to school for more CompSci/IT for $10k.

DaGuy just made some excellent points -- though I don't agree with #2. If you are a hardcore C programmer with asm experience -- the kind of person who writes compilers, virtual machines, and/or Linux hardware drivers (low-level dirty work is pretty hard IMO), then you should have plenty of work. For the rest of us, we're in trouble.

Working in front of a computer is nice. You pretty much get to use your head, and sit in front of a nice comfy keyboard. Lots of people want that sort of job.

Further, doing dev work is even more attractive, because there's an element of creativity to it, which makes your job more fun. Fun jobs pay less a lot of the time, for obvious reasons. On top of that, note that there are a lot more people *using* software than writing it.

Finally, trust your judgement. Look at the writing on the wall, make a decision, believe in your smarts to make that decision, and run with it.

I worked as a C programmer for the last three years and was recently laid off. I wasn't doing any real hardcore stuff (just simple C on VxWorks running some motion control stuff).

Good luck.

[BrandonCorbin]

As more and more jobs get moved over-seas there is going to be a larger demand for business analysis people... So get every book you can find, and become an expert in technical business analysis, and application integration. Or find any other job that will be required to manage all of the code being sent over-seas someone has to do it, so I will guess there will be money there.

[djohnson]

Do what your heart tells you. If you want to go back to school, try and find a company or professor willing to pay you to go to school. My friend did this and he will soon be making a nice amount of money in his guaranteed job. He has a BS and MS in Comp Eng while I have a BS in Comp Sci. I dont have a wonderful programming job, I dont even have a programming job period! What I do is fun though. Oh and I get to write programs on the side too! That makes it even more fun. Do what you like, usually the money will follow.

[itai195]

How about learning UML and helping design their new process? If there's one rule of thumb in IT, it's that you have to evolve with the times in order to keep your job.

[DaGuy]

Originally posted by djohnson:
Do what you like, usually the money will follow.

I would add:

1. Be very good at it,
2. know some people who can get you in and then
3. be willing to accept declining wages. Once you know their systems you can venture to ask for higher pay.
4. Sometime down the road don't complain and just keep ticking when you're training your replacements -that will take your job overseas.

No one will pay attention to these matters until IT workers get organized -some kind of politcal pressure is probably the best way. I would like to see Acme's Corporation's face if their entire IT department says it will stop working until some guarantees are provided. They would soil their business casual pants! IT is that critical. The respectable gray-haired airline pilots, the blue collar UPS man they all do it. The well-educated have been better treated and never had a need to organize themselves -perhaps until this point. We, have lots of brains but may fall short in the balls department...

Here's an example of how we lack those juggly things. I do contract work and was recently offered a position that required me to learn a a portal system, document it and prepare it for outsourcing. The worse thing about it was, that the folk who interviewed me were the ones who would be loosing their jobs! Luckily, I had another gig lined up and didn't have to go through that ordeal.

Some may wonder, "jobs have been going overseas for a long time, what's so different this time around?" Well, we invested lots of $$ in education (some like me had to borrow lots of it) as opposed to not graduating from high school. We can be compared to small businesses who may have a hard time recovering their investments. It's different this time around.

[depolitic]

Well I am glad to report that I just got a pay rise, to $20 an hour still just under the average for my task, however it will come in handy until I find something better.

I think that it is best just to leave IT as a full time career path. I will be looking into some other options in the coming months.

I had a look at cocoa and its GUI power is impressive, however the syntax is rather peculiar to me, but next paycheck I am looking to get the Big Nerds Ranch book.

I think that I will simple develop some Cocoa freeware and shareware applications, and get my fix that way, and spend more time doing some other stuff.

However Cocoa bothers me in that it seems to be exclusively focused on GUI application for Mac OS X. How difficult is it to port to gnuStep from Cocoa? Also can you build web sites in Cocoa or is that Web Objects?

Also since Objective-C is C based, does it not inherit the same problems with memory managment and pointers? My experience has been mostly high-level VM languages and C scares me, just heard stories of one line of C code crashing a whole OS.

[DaGuy]

Originally posted by depolitic:

However Cocoa bothers me in that it seems to be exclusively focused on GUI application for Mac OS X.

It's not just about GUI, although that is certainly one of its distinguishing features.

How difficult is it to port to gnuStep from Cocoa?

Not familiar with gnuStep but I do know that Apple frequently enhances Cocoa to the point that Panther has things that Jaguar doesn't. So from that angle, any non-Apple Cocoa look-a-like is bound to be way way behind.

Also can you build web sites in Cocoa or is that Web Objects?

That would be WebObjects.

Also since Objective-C is C based, does it not inherit the same problems with memory managment and pointers?

Objective-C is C with added OO functionality. In regards to memory managment, pointers etc, those are not problems. It's just a different way of doing things that may not suit all tastes/needs. Objective-C has some memory management features that are somewhere in between purely manual and completely automated. Easier than C++ but not easier than Java.

My experience has been mostly high-level VM languages and C scares me, just heard stories of one line of C code crashing a whole OS.

I guess that depends where that bad line of code is and it does. If you program an OS in Java then a single line of Java code can crash the OS. It just depends where it is and what it does. If you are programming in user space then MacOSX will not crash because of bad code. If you are at the kernel level and you make a mistake then that's a different story. The idea is, that the OS can protect itself from the applications that run over it but it can't proctect itself from itself.

[diamondsw]

I'd look at this differently. The only way to demand better pay is to have better abilities and adaptability. Anyone can learn to code in any language - programming is not hard (systems engineering is). What *is* hard is the thought processes that change it from merely whipping out code to looking at a whole system.

I have a CS degree, but I only know Java and C++ all that well. However, I ended up working in network architecture for web hosting. It had nothing to do with the fact that I knew the syntax for the languages or API sets (although if you really want to program for a living, you'll certainly need that).

What got me the job and has propelled me into new projects and responsibilities is I can take theses skills ans apply them to new areas. Learning how to abstract programs and look at entire systems helps in designing proper application flows and network layouts. Writing good flexible, scalable code has helped me to design flexible, scalable, redundant web architectures. Being able to scan systems, factor problems, and see patterns has all helped in analyzing why both technical systems break and human processes break.

Systems theory is key to a lot of this. If I make a change here, what will it affect? What other areas impact my code or project? What pressures are my clients responding to and how can I address them? I highly recommend "The Fifth Discipline" by Peter Senge.

It's not the languages and such that will help you and keep you in demand, but the principles behind it all. If you have that, you can pick up (and be good at) any language, project, etc.

My opinion, take it as you will.

[beamso]

Originally posted by depolitic:

Also since Objective-C is C based, does it not inherit the same problems with memory managment and pointers? My experience has been mostly high-level VM languages and C scares me, just heard stories of one line of C code crashing a whole OS.

Java has the same memory management and pointer issues. I'm sure you've seen null pointer exceptions, memory leaks and out of memory exceptions in your Java work. Plus there's an performance overhead in garbage collection in Java which doesn't exist in languages like C and C++.

I'm a Java developer in Australia as well... the market isn't spectacular, but it's far better with experience than without. There's plenty of fresh grads who can't get a job.

I'd recommend not getting a postgrad degree in IT either. Choose another field, that way if either field falls through the floor, you've got another field to keep your employment prospects up.

[depolitic]

Thank you all for your feedback. I think personally that I love my Mac but I do not wish to work in IT, it is ultimately a lifestyle choice, I need something less sedentary, yes air conditioning is nice but for me the open air is better. Plus a more people focused line of work would do me good.

I have decided to learn Objective-C, not because the syntax excites me rather that on Mac OS X Cocoa is king for GUI applications, I will keep java for my web-stuff. I am working through the currency conversion application. I feel better if I think of it as a hobby and you never know I may just make some money.

Cocoa however bothers me on many levels, mostly the fact that Cocoa is not OS independent even more so then C++ and C. Plus the fact that outside of the Mac Objective-C has no following. In regards to the long terms survivability of any languages is questionable if it is to tightly integrated into a single OS, especially a marginal OS that Mac OS X unfortunately is. Also their is the lack of industry or standards body backing for Cocoa and Objective-C, that you can find in ISO-C, C++, and Java. With Cocoa Apple has to almost single handedly drive the innovation for Cocoa, a difficulty ask for such a small company. I am obviously ignoring gnuStep, in these points. In many ways my concerns about Cocoa is much like concerns raised about C# except the marginal OS part.

However I think that Cocoa on its own merits is a mighty and worthy development solution, based on what I have seen of it so far. And if we the Mac developers wish cocoa to become respected beyond our beloved OS, then we must build those killer applications to make those prospectives switchers droll.

Also I think their is always opportunity for cross specialty / industry work. Now i just have to make another career choice, third time lucky.

[itai195]

Originally posted by depolitic:
Cocoa however bothers me on many levels, mostly the fact that Cocoa is not OS independent even more so then C++ and C.

Hmm, C and C++ are languages, Cocoa is a framework. You can proram Cocoa using Objective-C++ and Java if you wish.

[depolitic]

I am aware of the bindings for C++ and Java in Cocoa, however were I my initial research has gone on this subject the answer has been the same that Objective-C, is the best for Cocoa because of its dynamic run time nature, and as far as I understand that it is a soft typed language which C++ and Java are not.

Remembering that I am no expert on this subject, every were I go I get the following understanding. Cocoa is the frame work , that objective-c uses you can use C++ and Java but the later languages are not recommended and not heavily documented.

I would love to build in Cocoa-Java but resources on this subjects is limited to one or two small sites.

Tell me is their a huge increase in performance between Cocoa-java and Swing-Java? The fact that swing is difficult to look and work like a native mac application and its relative performance weaknesses is why Cocoa-Java interests me.

I have collected a large selection of pure Java swing cod that can imitate many OS X
behaviors and looks. But ultimately most Mac users look negatively at Swing based applications because it can never give a pure Mac OS feel.

Any feedback would be most welcome on this subject.

[itai195]

My personal feeling is that if you're going to write a Java GUI app, you might as well use Swing.

If you want to use Cocoa, learn Obj-C -- it's seriously not that big of a deal. It's a smaller language than C++ and Java. It just looks scary to newcomers because of the syntax, but it doesn't take too long to get over that. I'd say the learning curve for Cocoa is much steeper than for just Obj-C.

[jewelskull]

Originally posted by depolitic:
Cocoa because of its dynamic run time nature, and as far as I understand that it is a soft typed language which C++ and Java are not.

The are ways to get around these issues in Java, such as using NSSelector. While not integrated into the grammar as Objective-C, it's still possible to use Cocoa to the fullest in Java.

Originally posted by depolitic:
I would love to build in Cocoa-Java but resources on this subjects is limited to one or two small sites.

If you're familiar with MVC and GUI development, all you need to get started are the few tutorials on Apple's site and the AppKit and Foundation references. It literally took me about 2 days to become comfortable with Cocoa-Java given what I just mentioned.

Originally posted by depolitic:
Tell me is their a huge increase in performance between Cocoa-java and Swing-Java? The fact that swing is difficult to look and work like a native mac application and its relative performance weaknesses is why Cocoa-Java interests me.

The primary reasons to use Cocoa-Java are the following:

1) You have an existing back end in Java.
2) You want a rich MacOS X native UI because MacOS X users are important customers of your product.

or

1) You prefer Java to Objective-C.

Swing may use Aqua widgets, and Apple did a great job IMHO getting Swing to MacOS X, but Swing is not native MacOS X UI. It has no sheets, Cocoa toolbars, drawers, native color choosers, native font choosers, etc, etc.

For the above reasons I'm a heavy Cocoa-Java developer myself.

Originally posted by depolitic:
I have collected a large selection of pure Java swing cod that can imitate many OS X behaviors and looks. But ultimately most Mac users look negatively at Swing based applications because it can never give a pure Mac OS feel.

I've collected quite a few of the same. But I think they're even more dangerous than just using Swing. Why? Because due to limitations inherent in Swing the mimicking still doesn't fully look or feel quite right. And it leads users to think and expect it possibly is a native app when it is not. That's an attempt to deceive the user; bad juju.

My 2 cents, if you have an existing Java backend and care about MacOS X users go with Cocoa-Java. If you want to be platform neutral and MacOS X users aren't terribly important compared to Windows or Unix users, go Swing. Or if you simply prefer Java to Objective-C, go Cocoa-Java.

Hope this helps.

[Arclite]

Not sure about the others on this form, but I have found it very difficult to get into the world of shareware with Cocoa. Everything that you do has been done better already. Unless you do something big (Isophonic Software and Communiqu�), or are already know for good quality software (Ambrosia Software), then you're stuck. You can't make a cent. I myself have three apps out in the world, and haven't made much at all.

[kupan787]

I am currently in my 3rd year of college (a state university in California), studying Computer Science. When I first started, I thought all it was was programming. What I have learned however is that there is a whole lot more (everything from requirements engineering, modeling, UML, designing, etc). Anyone can learn to program, but it is the guy with the degree that learns the other 90% of what it takes.

I think of it like my two friends. One is currently pursuing a degree in Graphic Design. The other has just gotten Flash, Illustrator, etc and is teaching himself. Both can do about siilar work. The difference is in presentation. My friend getting a degree is learning more than just how to use the tools. Somethign that my friend learning on his own will never learn.

Originally posted by Arclite:
Not sure about the others on this form, but I have found it very difficult to get into the world of shareware with Cocoa. Everything that you do has been done better already. Unless you do something big (Isophonic Software and Communiqu�), or are already know for good quality software (Ambrosia Software), then you're stuck. You can't make a cent. I myself have three apps out in the world, and haven't made much at all.

I don't know what you are looking for money wise, but I feel I did pretty well doing the shareware route. In what I made last year (2003) I have made enough to cover my rent, pay for school, and cover "fun" expenses for a year. It was actually my first Cocoa project, and first time my name has been out on the scene.

[natan]

Originally posted by kupan787:
I don't know what you are looking for money wise, but I feel I did pretty well doing the shareware route. In what I made last year (2003) I have made enough to cover my rent, pay for school, and cover "fun" expenses for a year. It was actually my first Cocoa project, and first time my name has been out on the scene.

What app was that?

[macrophyllum]

Originally posted by natan:
What app was that?

I would like to know too!

[Jan Van Boghout]

Originally posted by macrophyllum:
I would like to know too!

Probaby http://www.macadvocacy.com/faxcenter.htm as that's in his profile and seems to be the only app there

[kupan787]

Originally posted by Jan Van Boghout:
Probaby http://www.macadvocacy.com/faxcenter.htm as that's in his profile and seems to be the only app there

Ya, that is it

[wadesworld]

It would appear to me that on the surface, the problem is one of two things (or both):

1) You just write the code you're told and thus, not involved in the design of the system.

2) The applications you're writing are not important enough to your organization.

If you're the guy that writes web page hit counters for an ISP, you're probably not going to get paid much. But if you're the guy that is the lead designer and programmer on the billing system for a major corporation, you're going to find yourself considered a lot more valuable.

I once went to a class with a guy that does a custom in-house app for designing grain silos. That's what their company does. It sounds kinda silly, but that guy has a job for as long as he wants it. Their app gives them a competitive advantage over the competition and allows their engineers to make changes and visualize them on the spot with the customer. His application is fundamental to their business. As an application developer, that's what you want.

So, if you stay in IT, find a way to become more involved in the design of projects, or finding ways to get yourself assigned to projects that are more mission-critical.

Wade

[depolitic]

This architectural angle of development has been a recurring theme from this thread, and my supervisor has been showing me some of these aspects, and it looks interesting. I however think that for me I am rather disappointed the web and I share Microsoft view, (Yes its scary) that the internet has been a disappointing because it has been unable to deliver rich user experiences that fat clients can deliver.

Their only so much XHTML/XML/JavaScript can give you.

I honestly feel that in the future the internet will eventually just become a huge interchange mechanism for fat clients powered by desktops.

But that is the whole point behind Longhorn, kill the net and focus on the standalone OS that use the net as a data exchange medium.

I think very much that I have simple lost my passion, for building systems for people. Working by their expectations and demands, and then never getting a thank you at the end.

So I will be focusing on Cocoa-Java, I think of it as the best of GUI framework and modern language with a huge developer backing. And just doing it for fun.