[parsec_kadets]

Originally posted by Green Leaf:
Fourth, to compete in the Educational market, you will need grammar check and a thesarus. Don't even try to tell me that these aren't important.

If this really is true, then the education market has really gone downhill in the three years since I graduated college. When I went to school it was much more desirable to actually have learned proper grammar and posses a robust vocabulary. Having to rely on a program for those things should be an indication that the American education system has failed you.

To address your posts in general, you mentioned some valid limitations. However, when others offered opinions that differed from yours you did not seek civil discourse. Instead you got pissed off and adopted a "I'm right, everyone else is wrong. I'm not listening, lalalalalalalalalala...." attitude. Next time I think you'll find that people will be much more willing to listen to you if you engage in mature debate instead of childish name calling.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by parsec_kadets:
To address your posts in general, you mentioned some valid limitations. However, when others offered opinions that differed from yours you did not seek civil discourse. Instead you got pissed off and adopted a "I'm right, everyone else is wrong. I'm not listening, lalalalalalalalalala...." attitude. Next time I think you'll find that people will be much more willing to listen to you if you engage in mature debate instead of childish name calling.

Well said.

[parsec_kadets]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Before you can use it? Why? You can easily start with the defaults and then change then whenever you want. The whole point of styles is that when you change a style it affects everything which has that style, so you don't have to go back and redo formatting on text from before that change was made.

I think you misunderstood. Styles are a good idea, and the feature is well implemented in Pages. My complaint was more along the lines that there aren't more setup out of the box. Eight paragraph styles isn't very many.

[dlefebvre]

If you can complain on more than 3 things about Pages, then it's not meant for you. Word is a full feature word processor, so use it. It's like a ProTool user complaining about the lack of features of GarageBand or a Photoshop user complaining about the lack of editing features in iPhoto. iWork is a simple consumer package not meant for a pro heavy user.

[himself]

Originally posted by dlefebvre:
If you can complain on more than 3 things about Pages, then it's not meant for you. Word is a full feature word processor, so use it. It's like a ProTool user complaining about the lack of features of GarageBand or a Photoshop user complaining about the lack of editing features in iPhoto. iWork is a simple consumer package not meant for a pro heavy user.

I haven't used pages first hand as of yet, but from what I can tell, Pages is more of a page layout application than a full-fledged word processor. The features in Pages that folks are complaining about seem standard to me, because I use page layout apps all day. No B, U, and I buttons is typical, since those buttons don't preserve the proportion of a typeface, whereas using a fonts built-in "styles" is more consistent and appropriate (and seems to be supported by Pages font menu interface).

I suspect Pages is much more powerful than Word in many ways, mainly because of its apparent flexibility in page formatting... the content isn't so thoroughly tied to the format, and you can make global changes to a document just by changing the styles.

From a designers perspective, I think that Pages is for the user who pays attention to the details that make a finished document stand out, as opposed to the user who needs a program to auto capitalize-complete-correct everything in their hastily typed document. Seriously, if you prefer Word's features, stick with it.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by parsec_kadets:
My complaint was more along the lines that there aren't more setup out of the box. Eight paragraph styles isn't very many.

You shouldn't make the mistake and overstyle a document. It's good that Pages doesn't encourage that mistake.

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by Green Leaf:
Why should i have to download a separate program to use a thesarus?? Again, this should be part of the the program.

Why should you have to download a separate program to do anything? Why shouldn't Pages search the Web, edit images and play Super Nintendo games? In general, I would say you should have to justify why two features belong in the same program instead of why they don't.

[Randman]

Apple has never said Pages is meant to replace Word. It's not a Word replacement, it's not a Quark replacement, it's not an InDesign replacement and I don't think it's even a TextEdit replacement.

Take the application on its merits, good and bad, and don't compare Apple(s) with oranges.

[SubGeniux]

Originally posted by OptimusG4:
Not sure if it was mentioned, but regarding the fonts...is it so hard to open the font panel and show a preview of the fonts so you can see what the font looks like before applying it?

Options, options, options. There should always be options to cater for differing writing methods. Is it so hard for Apple to create a WYSIWYG menu when the font panel is collapsed into pop-up menus? The expanded palette has all the shebbang, but why not give us WYSIWYG menu in the collapsed palette?

[Green Leaf]

If Pages didn't come with a Dictionary, you all would be saying: you can download a separate app with dictionary functionality or use sherlock's built in dictionary feature by subscribing to a dictionary service. Why would anyone need a dictionary? Don't you know how to spell? Get real folks.

I'm not too lazy to hold down SHIFT when I start a sentence, but when you type fast, sometimes you miss the key and therefore the program should pick up this error.

And for the record, i wasn't saying that I'm always right and you're all wrong. LaLaLaLa. Look at my FIRST post. I was merely suggesting that i felt Pages was missing features. If you keep reading you will notice YOU ALL jumped down my throat for sugggesting that Pages was missing good features. You started the War, not Me!

I want each of you to list 5 things that you don't like in Pages or would like to see Pages have. Or is the program PERFECT in your eyes that you are unable to list anything?

[TETENAL]

Kelly, you are a troll.

It's not what you say, it is how you say it. If you would have just added the features you'd like to see in Pages in one of the existing threads (a thread about the lack of features in Pages even already existed!) in a rational manner and without the hysterical shouting, then nobody would have complained and you probably would have found several people who would have agreed with you.

[Chuckit]

Actually, you weren't "merely suggesting that [you] felt Pages was missing features." You suggested that "Pages doesn't compare to Microsoft Word (COME ON APPLE!)" right in the title. It's hard to see how a title including the phrase "COME ON APPLE!" (gratuitous capitalization and punctuation preserved) can be taken in a non-aggressive way.

[Green Leaf]

Ah, so by your own testimony you are admitting that you don't necessary disagree with my statements, but rather you are only arguing with me because you didn't like my TONE OF TYPE.

Do you work for Apple? Do you have a vested interest in Apple? I see no reason for you to get so defensive about a company you don't work for or own a piece of.

[Amorya]

Originally posted by MartiNZ:
However, with Word, you can always press command-z right after it has corrected something for you to have it undo, and then it will leave it as you continue - that is one thing I like about its system .

That requires you noticing it's been done. I do a lot of slides for church presentations (used to use Powerpoint before Keynote). In church liturgy, a lot of lines are started with O (as in O Lord hear my prayer) - they all turn into lists. A lot of manual line breaks are included which don't coincide with sentence breaks - and they get capitalised incorrectly. There are other annoyances, but when I'm copying liturgy in from a book (and therefore looking at the book) I don't notice the changes until too late.

Second, I never mentioned auto/spell correcting. If you're going to criticize, read the post and GET IT RIGHT!!!! I said "CAPITALIZE the first letter of the first word in a sentence. With this said, why wouldn't you capitalize the first letter of the beginning of a sentence? I find it hard to believe that it bothers any of you! I find it hard to believe that everyone in this forum is typing business letter, family letter or anything else and doesn't need the first letter capitalized. You learned this in 3rd grade!!!

Already mentioned one example. Also, anything vaguely stylistic (I know all lower case is somewhat clich�d in design now, but it can still look good). Putting computer code inline. Web addresses. Starting a sentence with the word iMac. And those uses are just off the top of my head.

Fourth, to compete in the Educational market, you will need grammar check and a thesarus. Don't even try to tell me that these aren't important.

Thesaurus maybe. But every educational institution I've been in has warned me on pain of death that the grammar check should never be used under any circumstances.

Pages supports services anyway - it'll use one of the many thesaurus services.

not everyone uses shortcuts for Bold, Underline...... How can Pages make an impact in the business market or any other market without having this basic feature easily accessible at the top of the screen. yes, it doesn't take long to go find it, but it should be readily available at all times. (did you notice i didn't capitalize 'yes'?)

They're in the menubar, where they've been for over 20 years... and their specific place in the menubar is the same as in other MacOS X applications. I guess I wouldn't be too upset if they did this one... but I don't think it's needed.

Originally posted by Green Leaf:
I know if Microsoft forced you to open other windows to do these basic features, you ALL would be complaining....but since its Apple, you get defensive.

Word Mac does use an extra window for a lot of stuff (the formatting palette). But a more relevant point... Mac users traditionally have liked having multiple windows much more than Windows users. Look at all the palettes you get in something like Photoshop - there's none of this shoving everything in one fullscreen window like on many PC apps.

I'm not not complaining because it's Apple - I just genuinely think this is how an app should be designed. Could it be better? Yes. Does it need work? Well, it's not beta quality - comparisons to MacOS PB are unfair. I don't think there's anything critically wrong with it, although further use may tell.

Originally posted by Millennium:
Because they've beentaught to think this way by a damaging paradigm that forces them to think about what things look like, rather than what they mean. It's time to undo that damage. Define meaning, and let the formatting take care of itself.

I've just about retrained myself to do that on the web with CSS. Now to try the same with printed documents.


Amorya

[Amorya]

Originally posted by Green Leaf:
Ah, so by your own testimony you are admitting that you don't necessary disagree with my statements, but rather you are only arguing with me because you didn't like my TONE OF TYPE.

Do you work for Apple? Do you have a vested interest in Apple? I see no reason for you to get so defensive about a company you don't work for or own a piece of.

I'm more defensive because you cite Word as being better... and I find Word the biggest usability nightmare out there. There are other word processors around, some of which may be better than Pages. I'd like a head-to-head with Nisus Writer, for example. But Word? I've never found a use for that app that another app doesn't do a lot better, except opening files created by other misguided Word users

Amorya

[pliny]

The list of so called problems posted is a mediocre troll. Basically it boils down to Apple doesn't do the exact same thing that Word does in the exact same way omg!!11!

There is wysiwyg as pointed out, and as for customizing toplevel menus, no, Apple doesn't do this, since standardization is key.

Absence of grammar checker is a plus it is useless.

All the other stuff is easily doable, WARNING you may have to open the Help.

I will keep the reply short since the thread is such an obvious troll.

[m a d r a]

Originally posted by Green Leaf:
.... When you start typing a new sentence, if by chance you don't capitalize the first letter of the first word, Pages doesn't capitalize them for you. I can't find a setting to turn it on. This is a common function in Word which everyone loves......

"everyone loves" eh!! jeez. that auto-caps sh*t has got to be my all-time most hated and annoying 'feature' ever dreamt up by the warped minds of programmers anywhere! at least on most computer softwares you can turn it off, but when i'm writing an SMS and my mobile phone insists on capitalising the first letter after a full stop whether i want it or not....



[in fact - x infinity ]

Originally posted by Green Leaf:
... I said "CAPITALIZE the first letter of the first word in a sentence. With this said, why wouldn't you capitalize the first letter of the beginning of a sentence? ......

i never capitalise the first letters of my sentences as i think it makes a block of text aesthetically unpleasant to look at. also it is unnecessary, as the existence of the full stop indicates the previous sentence has ended, anyway.

that's why i get so irritated when a 'writing tool' [which is what a WP is] tries to dictate my writing style. i think most people would find a pencil which automatically altered what you wrote with it extremely irritating too.

[jasong]

Originally posted by Green Leaf:
If Pages didn't come with a Dictionary, you all would be saying: you can download a separate app with dictionary functionality or use sherlock's built in dictionary feature by subscribing to a dictionary service. Why would anyone need a dictionary? Don't you know how to spell? Get real folks.

A) I would use a dictionary service such as OmniDictionary (but i would find this a very strange strange omission - I don't find a thesaurus or grammar check omission strange).
B) The difference between a computer dictionary and a grammar check is that a dictionary actually works whereas a grammar check is crap.

Oh No! Did I just out myself as an Apple apologist?

-- Jason

[Stecchino]

For those who have beef with Apple, tell those who can actually help you.

[turtle777]

Originally posted by dajk:
[B]I hate this feature in word.

It's plain stupid.

Everytime you use an abbreviation, you have to go back and manually override the capitalization of the following word. Totally useless feature, and hence, turned of for me !

-t

[parsec_kadets]

Originally posted by Green Leaf:
If Pages didn't come with a Dictionary, you all would be saying: you can download a separate app with dictionary functionality or use sherlock's built in dictionary feature by subscribing to a dictionary service. Why would anyone need a dictionary? Don't you know how to spell? Get real folks.

Actually Pages doesn't come with a dictionary. It uses the one built into OS X. That's another limitation of Word as it currently exists. If I add a word to my OS X dictionary (because I was typing that word on the forums here using Safari, for example) that word does not propagate to the Word dictionary because they are completely separate. I don't really blame MS for that one, since they had the dictionary in Office before OS X ever existed. Hopefully they'll make the two play nice in the future.

Or is the program PERFECT in your eyes that you are unable to list anything?

I never said the program was perfect. I even agreed with your complaints. However, what I said was that those limitations would not make me go out and spend the extra $320 for Office. What you're forgetting is that some people may not find the missing "features" (some truly are features, and some are actually annoying/stupid) worth the extra cost. Why do you have a problem with how they spend their money? If Pages isn't for you, and you have the cash, then go buy Office. I would rather spend that money on something else. Is there something wrong with that?

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Green Leaf:
I'm not too lazy to hold down SHIFT when I start a sentence, but when you type fast, sometimes you miss the key and therefore the program should pick up this error.

No, you should pick it up when you proofread your writing. That's what proofreading is for.

I want each of you to list 5 things that you don't like in Pages or would like to see Pages have.[/b]

• The ability to import from more word processors, particularly WordPerfect. LaTeX import/export would also be nice.
• Mail merge. Of course, to do this it's going to need some sort of database integration.
• A spreadsheet. Well, technically I don't want this in Pages -it should be its own app- but iWork needs a spreadsheet if it's going to replace AppleWorks in many settings. Fortunately, it looks as though this is probably coming.
• Pages seems to be using a custom text engine, and it's still pretty rough around the edges. This is all cosmetic stuff, but fixing it would be good polish.

Or is the program PERFECT in your eyes that you are unable to list anything?

Perfect, no. But it represents a better way of thinking about writing, and it does so in a better interface than any I've seen before. Is it perfect? I doubt it. But it's a radical enough departure that it will of course take time to iron out everything.

What we can do is be on guard for feature suggestions which would represent backsliding into the older, harmful paradigm, and take steps to prevent these from getting in.

[Love Calm Quiet]

There *IS* a way to turn off auto-correct in Word?!? Please share its location. I've never been able to find it in any preference setting (Word X ~2002).

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by Green Leaf:
If Pages didn't come with a Dictionary, you all would be saying: you can download a separate app with dictionary functionality or use sherlock's built in dictionary feature by subscribing to a dictionary service. Why would anyone need a dictionary? Don't you know how to spell? Get real folks.

Why would a word processor need a dictionary? Well, because it's needed for the built-in spell checker. The thesaurus, OTOH, provides no special ability from being integrated with the word processor.

By the way, no one was suggesting you download a separate app. I don't know where you got that. I suggested three online web sites which let you look up a word in Merriam-Webster's Thesaurus, Roget's Thesaurus, or whatever thesaurus.com uses. All of these are likely to be much better than some built-in thesaurus that some engineers put together, and they will also be sure to always be up to date. And then, there's the Sherlock thesaurus feature, which you don't have to download because it's included with the OS already! And finally, in 10.4, the thesaurus is going to be a Dashboard widget, which pretty much as convenient as you could ask for.

Now, with that said, Pages probably actually doesn't have a built-in dictionary. I'll bet you $5 that it actually uses the system-wide spell-checking service instead. So how about that?

I'm not too lazy to hold down SHIFT when I start a sentence, but when you type fast, sometimes you miss the key and therefore the program should pick up this error.

The Word Auto-Correct thing is a bad feature. As has already been pointed by myself and numerous others in this thread, there are just too many times when it screws up and introduces errors into a document that was otherwise typed correctly! I've talked to users, both ones that know what they are doing and complete novices, and basically everyone I know hates this feature. In fact, if I were Apple, I would trumpet "No Clippy, no annoying AutoCorrect!" on the front of the iWork box in big, bold lettering.

I want each of you to list 5 things that you don't like in Pages or would like to see Pages have. Or is the program PERFECT in your eyes that you are unable to list anything?

I haven't tried the app yet, but I'm sure that I will find some things that are lacking once I am able to. However, I certainly will not be complaining about the things you are complaining about (except maybe for the WYSIWYG font menu - that's a nice feature). In particular, I am glad to hear they have not added the worthless AutoCorrect feature.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by Love Calm Quiet:
There *IS* a way to turn off auto-correct in Word?!? Please share its location. I've never been able to find it in any preference setting (Word X ~2002).

Application menu -> Preferences... oh wait, this is Word. My mistake. Every other app for Mac OS X follows the guidelines and puts its settings in there. Word, OTOH, puts it in Tools -> AutoCorrect. Silly me.

[Zarafa]

It's probably not a bad idea to point out that additional functionality can be added to Pages pretty easily by using Services. A number of third-party products already exist for otherwise "missing" features.

Caveat: I haven't used these with Pages yet, but since they generally work with all Service-aware apps, they should perform as advertised.

• Devon's WordService [free] adds all sorts of functions such as caps transformations (including first word capitalization), reformatting, statistics, etc.
• Devon's CalcService [free] does calculations on selected formulas/numbers.
• Nisus Thesaurus [free] adds, logically enough, thesaurus features.
• OmniDictionary [free] adds dictionary lookups, if you want those in addition to the OS X system-wide spell-check feature.

These are just some of the Services available.

Of course, since these are third-party products, users are free to add or replace them as they see fit, and they're not tied to some functionality included within Pages itself.

I realize that these may not meet everyone's needs, but maybe users can begin to think of Pages (and other apps) in the Unix tradition:

"Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface." -- Doug McIlroy, the inventor of Unix pipes

Since people are often most familiar with the MS Office philosophy ("do *everything*"), a more-streamlined approach ("stick with core competencies, but be extensible") can often be a bit startling.

[minor edit for readability]

[waffffffle]

I think the main problem here is that Pages is not a word processor. It is a page design and layout application, like Quark.

I was really hoping for a word processor application from Apple but instead of offering that, they gave us pages. They ignored the word processor features, and instead went for flashy templates, which are certainly impressive, but are useless for a kid writing a paper.

Word's auto-correction and grammar checker are two big features that are considered "standard" in a word processor due to the fact that Microsoft has had them in Word since 1997. I really wanted Apple to include these features.

Another big problem is the font palette. The idea of an external font window is really dumb for a word processor. Apple really needs to create a system-wide font toolbar system that can be embedded into any app. This toolbar would be independent of the current system toolbars, and would appear directly below the main toolbar. The buttons would be completely customizable and be smaller than the regular toolbar buttons. The toolbar would include the basics (Bold, Italics, Underline), a popup font menu, with previews IN THE MENU, and a font size popup menu. Apple needs to create this and then make it available to all developers. The font window is really useless as is.

[nforcer]

While there have been times autocorrect has been annoying, more often than not it has helped me. I have a different typing style where my hands sort of float around the keyboard. There is no "home row" for me. This style helps me type faster but I make mistakes semi-frequently. So generally when I type in Word I do not need to use the delete key as often as I do in other programs. That's not to say I don't see the points of others in this thread, as I do, and I can see how things like autocorrect would be annoying for their purposes.

As for the suggestion that Pages lack of certain features are a strength that helps you think about writing, I don't buy it. No matter what app I am using to type something, be it TextEdit, Mail, BBEdit, or Word, I always think about what I am writing. I think about if what I am writing makes sense, if it can be easily understood and read, and if I have correct word use and grammar. I usually read everything I write at least twice, and sometimes I still miss problems. Word's grammar checking features have helped point out problems in the past, although such features have not always offered good solutions.

If there was one feature in a word processor I would want to see, it would be a translator feature. When I talk with my friends, we typically say what we feel and use crude language filled with personal attacks. For example, when we disagree, we say something to eachother like "no, sh*thead" or "what the hell are you thinking, as*hole". It would be awesome to be able to select such phrases, right-click them, and select a menu item like "Translate to Business Lingo". Then it would replace the selected text with something like "I disagree" or "I do not think such a feature would be accepted in today's marketplace".

Such a feature would allow me to say what I really felt, but it would come out looking really professional. Then I could finally write essays with ease.

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by waffffffle:
Word's auto-correction and grammar checker are two big features that are considered "standard" in a word processor due to the fact that Microsoft has had them in Word since 1997. I really wanted Apple to include these features.

I disagree. Those features should not be included because Microsoft does so. They should be included because they are useful features. And these two features aren't.

First, grammar checking. Never in my life have I used grammar checking and I know nobody who uses it. The suggestions made by it are completely uses. Maybe English grammar checking is better, but in German this feature is a complete joke.

Second, auto-correcting. I absolutely hate this feature and it's the first thing I turn off. Again I know nobody who uses this feature. I only know people who don't know how to turn this off. Many probably don't even know that the feature exists. They simply hate computers, because for them computers are unpredictable and annoying pieces of technology.

[Love Calm Quiet]

Thanks, Charles... no wonder I couldn't find it.

Yes, autocorrect might be a handy feature sometimes. But I find the *ability to turn it off* the MOST helpful feature

[LaGow]

A spreadsheet. Well, technically I don't want this in Pages -it should be its own app- but iWork needs a spreadsheet if it's going to replace AppleWorks in many settings. Fortunately, it looks as though this is probably coming.

This is probably my only real gripe with the iWork suite in general. My hope is that Apple will include the spreadsheet app sooner rather than later (maybe as free upgrade...?). It is probably a vain hope. I fear having to plunk down another $79 (or more) just to get that functionality. Functionality that should have been a piece of the puzzle to begin with, in my opnion.

But, you know, you pays your money and you takes your chances.

[threestain]

Originally posted by waffffffle:
Another big problem is the font palette. The idea of an external font window is really dumb for a word processor. Apple really needs to create a system-wide font toolbar system that can be embedded into any app. This toolbar would be independent of the current system toolbars, and would appear directly below the main toolbar. The buttons would be completely customizable and be smaller than the regular toolbar buttons. The toolbar would include the basics (Bold, Italics, Underline), a popup font menu, with previews IN THE MENU, and a font size popup menu. Apple needs to create this and then make it available to all developers. The font window is really useless as is.

I really think that additional toolbars suck. You should only require one toolbar. It annoys me so much that the space on your monitor is sucked up by hideous toolbars that very rarely give you any information and none of the options of a menu. I especially hate the adobe toolbar, and how no matter how many times you re-order toolbars and turn them off in Word they always reappear and suck up space.

The template idea is a great one I think - allows proper creativity (you can create your own after all) and you don't have to use them if you don't want to. I 'm really looking forward to using it frankly.

[kcmac]

Wow. It is getting a little tense in this thread...

I just got iWork today and then had to travel. Spent my time on the plane reading the entire Pages users manual.

I would suggest that to everyone here. A lot of things being slammed in this thread can actually be done in Pages. It is a little more than just a page layout program folks. It is really pretty impressive.

So read the manual and you may be surprised. Some things are done just a little bit differently than before but the features are still there. (For instance, you can outline in Pages.)

In fact, I would say that this thing may be a little too much for the average Joe in some aspects. Pages is very customizable (is that a word?). It really makes you concentrate on styles to use its power. Not something most average users want to get involved with. I think it is more for those that want to take the next step but don't want something as complex as Indesign or Quark and at the same time are frustrated with Word.

Pages appears to be good stuff and something that I will enjoy.

[MartiNZ]

Originally posted by threestain:
I really think that additional toolbars suck. You should only require one toolbar. It annoys me so much that the space on your monitor is sucked up by hideous toolbars that very rarely give you any information and none of the options of a menu. I especially hate the adobe toolbar, and how no matter how many times you re-order toolbars and turn them off in Word they always reappear and suck up space.

You can make the toolbars go away in Word. Save your own template, or just have 'Prompt to save Normal template' checked in the Save preferences. Then kill all the toolbars, do something else that will make it ask you to save the template (in case that flies below its radar) and then save when it asks you to on exit. I run Word 2004 with no toolbars, only the formatting palette - one thing that I find makes Word and Excel so much better on the Mac than on Windows!

To balance it out though, I really hate it how when you go to customise toolbars (okay I have one tiny one for styles and zoom as how the formatting palette works with styles in 2004 takes up way too much space), the main window resizes to fit the 'menu toolbar' and then doesn't resize back again afterwards - and that is the only toolbar that you can't successfully get to move !

[Amorya]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
First, grammar checking. Never in my life have I used grammar checking and I know nobody who uses it. The suggestions made by it are completely uses. Maybe English grammar checking is better, but in German this feature is a complete joke.

It's not better.

I use grammar check for one reason: when writing in French or German it'll help me get the right genders for the nouns. I have never ever used it by choice when writing in English.

Amorya

[squilla]

Originally posted by kcmac:

For instance, you can outline in Pages.

Actually, you can make what pages calls "ordered lists", but these aren't outlines, they are pictures of outlines. If you make a list with sub-lists, then select the higher-level element in the list and indent it, it will indent, but the sub-list under it will not move. So you can't promote or demote, because Pages doesn't know about outline structure (as opposed to appearance). Similarly Pages won't collapse and expand the sub-lists under a heading.

Pages does a lot of things very well, but it's also missing some important things. The emphasis in Pages' design is on formatting and displaying stuff, not on underlying structure, which is minimal.

[kcmac]

Call it what you want and you are correct in the traditional sense, but to me, it is outlining. Just in a different way. Plus, I have control of it.

[poocat]

Madra, that's awesome. Actually that's one of the reasons i'm amazed at this thread. You're the first person to mention that. I almost never capitalize (though clearly i'm doing it here) and never capitalize i when writing. Having said that, it's annoying to have to capitalize for work/business/general status. And here's where i'm going to buck the crowd.

I really like having Word capitalize i in sentences.

Having said that, this thread is a pretty stunning example of Macnn. Do you guys realize what's going on here? The op was very absurd. And instead of either a) ignoring or b) responding gently so as to promote maturity... we have people suggesting that a grammar check has no place in an app? What? But a spell check does? Who decides what features are useful? You? No. Because people who are NOT you and work in different fashions will use the app. Please, don't suggest that just because someone misses a feature that there is no use and never will be a use for that.

To better understand how ludicrous that argument is please remember the discussion on Safari & tabs.

Look. Can't anyone see that there are different sets of users? I mean, i love the auto i capitalization, because when i'm using word i'm usually writing for an audience that requires me to follow punctuation rules. But do i know it can be turned off and do i turn it off sometimes? Yes. Because i understand that there are a variety of uses/users.

Do i like it when i type 'teh' and Word knows i meant 'the'? Yes. Do i loathe the longer changes, because they are so infrequently correct? Yes.

But seriously, isn't the worst part of Word the 245 megs of memory it's using with nothing open?

To me, that's the real issue. It's just too big and too slow.

Anyway. I often wish the Macnn crowd was a) more welcoming, b) more mature, and c) more understanding. Especially because a lot of us are pretty educated and intelligent.

Any hope for this? Who knows. Please note that this is not defending the op. Just an opinion.

[lavar78]

Originally posted by poocat:
Madra, that's awesome. Actually that's one of the reasons i'm amazed at this thread. You're the first person to mention that. I almost never capitalize (though clearly i'm doing it here) and never capitalize i when writing. Having said that, it's annoying to have to capitalize for work/business/general status. And here's where i'm going to buck the crowd.

For clarity's sake, it'd be nice if you'd quote what you're responding to in a thread like this. Anyway, I have to say I'm glad the all-lowercase fad seems to have died down. It was inescapable on the internet about ten years ago.

we have people suggesting that a grammar check has no place in an app? What? But a spell check does? Who decides what features are useful? You? No. Because people who are NOT you and work in different fashions will use the app. Please, don't suggest that just because someone misses a feature that there is no use and never will be a use for that.

The prevailing opinion is that grammar check is ineffective. Spell check has an inevitable flaw (it won't flag a misspelled word if the misspelling is in its dictionary), but it works rather well in general. Can you say the same about grammar check?

[jasong]

Originally posted by poocat:
Who decides what features are useful?

Apple does, and they decided that a grammar check is useless. Also, you don't want Pages to use 250 MB of RAM like Word, but you want it to have all the "features?" Why do you think Word needs that much memory? Why do you think Pages doesn't? I am confident that almost every feature people are missing will be available via services if they aren't already.

Than being said, I am looking forward to getting pages.

-- Jason

[poocat]

Originally posted by lavar78:
For clarity's sake, it'd be nice if you'd quote what you're responding to in a thread like this.

Sorry. It was really for Madra's post on not using capitals. I agree, when the thread's so long it's confusing.

Originally posted by jasong:
Also, you don't want Pages to use 250 MB of RAM like Word, but you want it to have all the "features?" Why do you think Word needs that much memory? Why do you think Pages doesn't?

That's not at all what i said. I actually don't have Pages, and am not planning on buying it, as i already own Word. My initial point was one you support, that Apple, or Microsoft, decides what is a "useful" feature. I simply don't understand why posters above us both were saying that grammar check was not useful. It's one thing to say that they do not use a feature, or that they do not like a feature, but to condemn others for wanting a feature? That sounds a bit odd to me. That's all. While the original poster's tone was less than pleasant, it seems to me that it would be easier to ignore than to attempt to convince him/her that the features they wanted are not, in fact, useful.

For the record, I do not use grammar check, and am not defending it. Nor am i saying that i would like to have one in Pages. I am simply saying that it is a feature, and surely there are people who use it. Why? Who cares?

I would just like to see a request for features be met with help, as it has been (see the thesaurus postings above) rather than questioning the feature's usefulness. If it weren't useful, there wouldn't be a thread requesting it.

Thanks for the responses though.

[Chuckit]

Originally posted by poocat:
Who decides what features are useful? You?

Yes, I am the person who comes up with my opinions. I don't think that's a secret.

Originally posted by poocat:
I simply don't understand why posters above us both were saying that grammar check was not useful. It's one thing to say that they do not use a feature, or that they do not like a feature, but to condemn others for wanting a feature?

Since when is it considered immature to use our own senses to determine whether a feature actually serves a good purpose? Are we not allowed to think at all?

"I simply don't understand why posters above us both were saying that a hole in the head was not useful."

[Millennium]

Originally posted by poocat:
I simply don't understand why posters above us both were saying that grammar check was not useful. It's one thing to say that they do not use a feature, or that they do not like a feature, but to condemn others for wanting a feature? That sounds a bit odd to me. That's all.

Because at least in the US (and, from what little data I've been able to gather), the quality of the average person's writing has gone down dramatically over the past decade or two, and spell/grammar checking is directly to blame. In their quest for 'ease of use', these features have instead taken the thinking not out of word processing, but out of writing itself.

I do not condemn grammar check as useless. I condemn it as something even worse: actively harmful.

[TETENAL]

poocat, first let me say that this thread got its aggressive undertone because Kelly Hogan resorted to repeated shouting from his first post. I'm not making any decisions about the feature sets of Apple's applications, so I don't like to be shouted at (and even if I worked for Apple I wouldn't like that). But to answer your specific question:

Originally posted by poocat:
I am simply saying that it is a feature, and surely there are people who use it. Why? Who cares?

Because every feature comes at a cost. You named one yourself: Word uses an enormous amount of RAM. Other costs include the price of the software (developing the features has to be paid for), the complexity of the user interface, the speed of the software, bugs introduced etc. pp. That is why many speak out against including features which are better left out of the package.

That doesn't mean you have to do without them. You can, with the power of Services. Pages most likely doesn't even come with a spell checker, but the system offers a spell checker Service that is available to all applications. In just the same way you can add thesaurus or grammar check Services � or whatever feature you personally like and need � to your whole system. The system is adjusted to your needs without unnecessary bloat. And because every application can use one Service, features don't need to be duplicated in every application (which would increase RAM usage etc. pp.)

[Green Leaf]

Well, it didnt' take long for the world to agree with me.

http://www.freep.com/money/tech/tech...e_20050125.htm

This review of Pages sums up what i was talking about. PooCat, thank you for your kind words. Everyone in this forum is nuts about this "kelly hogan" person (whom i'm not)

Read what the world is saying. Read the article. It looks like they are agreeing with me, not you.

Actually, the only press that i saw that was positive was put out by Apple or a Mac Publisher. This article is from an independant.

[Richard Edgar]

People write documents in something other than LaTeX? That's brave of them. Foolhardy, even.

[LaGow]

Originally posted by Green Leaf:
Well, it didnt' take long for the world to agree with me.

http://www.freep.com/money/tech/tech...e_20050125.htm

This review of Pages sums up what i was talking about. PooCat, thank you for your kind words. Everyone in this forum is nuts about this "kelly hogan" person (whom i'm not)

Read what the world is saying. Read the article. It looks like they are agreeing with me, not you.

Actually, the only press that i saw that was positive was put out by Apple or a Mac Publisher. This article is from an independant.

It looks to me that he maybe spent, oh, about five minutes with the software before writing the review. Typical, and not terribly interesting. And one lazy software reviewer does not constitute "the world."

In many ways I have to agree with one or two others that features like a grammar checker are bad, particularly when they work as Word's does. Where I disagree is not that Word's grammar checker is harmful because it promotes laziness, but that it's harmful because it's almost always wrong. Since about 75% of this country has the intelligence of your average cement block, that infers that Word is teaching those people who use it -- through repetition akin to advertising (which is how many people are used to getting their information anyway) -- about grammar usage. Badly (meaning wrong).

And then we all have to read their lousy writing. This has been documented in corporations, but I see it newspapers all the time. Frankly, I don't want a grammar checker if it's not going to do its job well. As far as I'm concerned that's Word Bloat.

EDIT: On the other hand, anyone who's too lazy to, for instance, go to the trouble of capitalizing an "I" when using it as a personal pronoun is really not worth much, if any, attention as it's clear he or she doesn't really care. This sort of literary ambivalence may seem cool (after all, didn't e.e. cummings do it?!?), but it comes off as uneducated. You either care about what you write enough to learn how to do it well (or at least well enough) or risk being ridiculed as an AOL IM-kiddie. Or worse, ignored.

[cybergoober]

Green Leaf -- you seem to be missing the main point here.

Pages isn't meant as a Word competitor. Period.

Thank you.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Green Leaf:
Well, it didnt' take long for the world to agree with me.

I'm not so sure. All it really says is "Pages sucks"; it doesn't say why. I find this curious. Even you said why, but this article does not.

This review of Pages sums up what i was talking about.

Um, no it doesn't. It doesn't go into any kind of "missing features" or any of the other stuff you mentioned.

PooCat, thank you for your kind words. Everyone in this forum is nuts about this "kelly hogan" person (whom i'm not)

I believe you, as I've already said.

Read what the world is saying. Read the article. It looks like they are agreeing with me, not you.

"The world" uses Microsoft, so I'm not exactly put stock in its opinion. "The world" has been wrong about many things in the past. Not that it matters; a single review does not constitute world opinion.

[JKT]

Obligatory Word-bashing-but-oh-so-true quote which seems appropriate in this thread:

Why is it that, when you buy the latest version of Word, you spend the first half hour trying to turn off most, if not all, of the new "features" because they are all so annoying?