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knifecarrier2 · Sep 24, 2012, 06:45 PM

Sooooo.......... let me start off by saying I have enough "stuff". I love my S6 Wagon. I love my $150 sweet lookin VW Golf DD. I have a great boat. I have a lot of tools. I have a motorcycle project that I haven't touched in years. Lots of things to do. On top of that, it's kinda stressful trying to keep on top of everything, and still have time for a girlfriend, my dog, a personal life, and lots of hobbies (backpacking, biking, etc).

However... a deal came across me recently that .. well. Here goes. My dad's neighbor who's basically a second dad to me, has always had this black air-cooled porsche 911. 5spd. Targa. Black on black with black fuchs. Looks awesome. Anyway... he mentioned he wanted me to help him sell it, and I said I would. But then he told me the price. 7k obo. Like.. he'd probably take 6k. Naturally, this intrigued me. He tried selling this car to me about a decade ago, but with street parking I just couldn't justify it.

But now... well, I'm already kinda student loan poor.. but if I shuffled some things around, I think I could probably finance about half of it, and my payments would be about $60 a month or so. To have a ****in' 911. Insurance? Collector plates are $200, at which point insuring the car for an entire year costs about $120 or so.

So... on to the car. It's basically the least desirable, worst 911 in history. Why? It was a dark time in the mid 70s for emissions, and Porsche installed some "thermal reactors", which basically ran the engine super rich to the point where the exhaust would still be burning fuel. This caused a lot of HEAT.

Unfortunately, they also had a new engine this year. The 2.7 liter flat six. Like the original 911, it had a magnesium case with aluminum cylinders, and steel head studs. Magnesium is really soft, and with those three metals contracting/expanding at different rates, the studs would pull out of the case, requiring a complete engine rebuild in as little as 50k miles. Well, after asking about such things, sure enough, the engine failed at around 50k miles. It was replaced with ANOTHER 2.7 liter with some aftermarket headstuds, and a big bore kit that bumps it out to 2.9 liters. The thermal reactors were completely removed, and the exhaust was backdated to 74 and earlier.. thus... hopefully preventing any problems in the future. It's been running nice for another 60k miles. >fingers crossed<

Now... other than that... I know it has bad paint; someone got a bit happy with a buffer at some point. I don't really care. It also leaks oil onto the exhaust, so it smokes a lot. I researched that, and apparently upgrading to stiffer "turbo" valve covers with a new set of gaskets cures that issue.

I talked to a few motorsports enthusiasts.... and they said jump on it. Even if the engine grenades, a clean shell without rust is worth the asking price, and the value has been going UP in the past few years. If I fixed the paint and the leaks, it'd probably be worth closer to 12-15k.

Again... wasn't really looking to have a third car again. But financially, it's kind of stupid not to pull the trigger on this. Plans are to drop the drivetrain this winter, replace seals, start driving next spring. I'll keep you updated.

besson3c · Sep 24, 2012, 07:33 PM

How is it financially stupid to not buy this? You have transportation.

I'm not saying you shouldn't get it for your enjoyment, but it seems silly to think of this as some sort of investment, unless I'm missing something.

knifecarrier2 · Sep 24, 2012, 08:11 PM

Getting a car for 6k, that could EASILY be worth double that with minimal effort? Esp when it will only APPRECIATE, instead of depreciate? It's like the exact opposite of buying a new car.

besson3c · Sep 24, 2012, 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by knifecarrier2

Getting a car for 6k, that could EASILY be worth double that with minimal effort? Esp when it will only APPRECIATE, instead of depreciate? It's like the exact opposite of buying a new car.

If it will really appreciate and you are sure of that and you're confident that you can find a buyer and can make a profit when all is said and done, including in your maintenance costs, go for it then.

Laminar · Sep 25, 2012, 12:52 AM

besson3c offering Rob advice in a car thread. My world is upside down right now.

Spheric Harlot · Sep 25, 2012, 05:40 AM

My take:

My life improved tremendously when I started just letting a good deal be a good deal for someone else, except on things I knew I would be needing eventually, anyway.

The only way something like this makes sense to buy it for the deal, fix it up, and sell it for profit. I've never been the type for that, but I know people who do this with all sorts of stuff, and at least one who does it with cars - drives em for a year, gets all the kinks out, and then sells them for a good price to people who trust his judgement and skills.

andi*pandi · Sep 25, 2012, 05:44 AM

^This. You like fixing up stuff, that is the fun part, right? Why not sell one of your other cars so you can afford to rehab this one.

MacinTommy · Sep 25, 2012, 06:10 AM

Fuq it. I don't give a shit. Waste your money.

Laminar · Sep 25, 2012, 06:32 AM

I hope he uses marine plywood this time around, wouldn't want the 911 rotting from the inside out.

OldManMac · Sep 25, 2012, 07:54 AM

Originally Posted by Laminar

I hope he uses marine plywood this time around, wouldn't want the 911 rotting from the inside out.

ShortcutToMoncton · Sep 25, 2012, 09:45 AM

If you can do your own work and actually not lose money, I don't see why not. Considering financing, insurance, cost of parts, and your own time....

I'm surprised an old Porsche like that would be worth so much, given that it's been fairly heavily modified. I always assumed those cars are worth a lot more stock....

knifecarrier2 · Sep 25, 2012, 10:12 AM

It's a 1977, stock, only thing different is a rebuilt engine. Other than that it's all original. I checked the values on hagerty, right now the car is probably worth about 8k max... but after fixing the oil leak for ~ 150 and getting the fenders resprayed... value is more like 12-14k or more. OTOH... the idea of a rat rod porsche 911 is intriguing. Just make it a strong runner and beat piss out of. Hrm.

356 but whatevs:

Shaddim · Sep 25, 2012, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by knifecarrier2

I like those, the 3L boxer 6 is a tough little brute. It doesn't take much to get 300bhp out of them. There's a `78 around here that's restored and all blacked-out, it's a great running car. I've stopped and talked with the guy, he works at a local service station, and he's put a lot of money and work into it.

knifecarrier2 · Oct 1, 2012, 06:51 AM

Looks exactly like this one but minus the ducktail:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Targa-/180982437377

knifecarrier2 · Oct 7, 2012, 02:58 PM

shifuimam · Oct 8, 2012, 05:16 AM

I'm with Spheric and Andi. It can be really hard to let a good deal go, but you're already in financial straits as it is - in fact, if you're in a lot of debt, I can't even see the justification in owning two cars.

A car like this is going to end up being a financial sinkhole unless you're guaranteed to flip it immediately after purchase. You'll end up more in debt than you already are. Not worth it IMO.

ShortcutToMoncton · Oct 8, 2012, 05:35 AM

The above picture makes me think you're too late...?

mattyb · Oct 8, 2012, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton

The above picture makes me think you're too late...?

I didn't think that a picture was needed to come to this conclusion.

Shaddim · Oct 8, 2012, 02:38 PM

Oh, it's a targa, I missed that... yikes.

Thorzdad · Oct 9, 2012, 07:37 AM

I've never known a Porsche owner who loved them because they were economical to maintain. And, unless it's been babied and driven sanely by a single owner all its life, a 911 of that vintage is almost assuredly going to be a financial blackhole.

Walk away, man. Just walk away.

Shaddim · Oct 9, 2012, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Thorzdad

I've never known a Porsche owner who loved them because they were economical to maintain. And, unless it's been babied and driven sanely by a single owner all its life, a 911 of that vintage is almost assuredly going to be a financial blackhole.
Walk away, man. Just walk away.

I was thinking in terms of the instability of the 911 targa, it's very much like two concrete blocks on opposite ends of a plywood board. Structurally rigid, it ain't, and this was in the time before active motor mounts, CF, and exotic mono-cell construction. The the mods it should be pretty solid, it just needs regular TLC, most of the reliability issues would likely come down to the fuel and electrical systems, which can be fixed by replacing it all with current tech. It's pricey, but cheaper in the long run. We're talking about a labor of love, though. You do it because you have a passion for cars and a love of the platform, money will be spent, lots of it. I'm not completely sure what's in my Gallardo spyder, maybe $220k? She drives like few others, though, even new ones. I know people who have that much in `vettes and Camaros, so for an Italian sports car, that's not too bad.

knifecarrier2 · Oct 9, 2012, 11:42 AM

Yeah... that's Porschephile BS. I've been reading up on that. I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference between a targa and a coupe, unless it were on a track and you were pushing it 9/10s. For a street car they're basically indiscernable, other than you have a badass sunroof and the wind in your hair.

Shaddim · Oct 9, 2012, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by knifecarrier2

Yeah... that's Porschephile BS. I've been reading up on that. I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference between a targa and a coupe, unless it were on a track and you were pushing it 9/10s. For a street car they're basically indiscernable, other than you have a badass sunroof and the wind in your hair.

I've driven quite a few mid-70s 911s, targas and coupes, and there is a difference, to the point I've seen a few where the body panels aren't as true as they once were. You can feel the flex, it's like a springy/sponginess in the chassis, though not as bad as a cabrio. They're still mad fun to drive, don't get me wrong, there's just a sort of "null" feeling, and they're more challenging on the twisties when you're really flogging them. You're a handy sort, though, and I've seen where guys have welded additional cross-members and supports to the frame to help counter those issues, so that's definitely a viable (and suggested) option to look into. They're excellent little tuner cars and very satisfying, sharp too.

knifecarrier2 · Oct 9, 2012, 06:52 PM

I've heard the main thing is they weigh about 100-200lbs more, so they just feel a bit more sluggish because of that. I mean, if the chassis was really flexing that much, don't you think you'd hear whistles and gaps when the targa top was flexing, and losing it's seal?

knifecarrier2 · Oct 9, 2012, 06:52 PM

ShortcutToMoncton · Oct 10, 2012, 02:15 AM

You haven't yet said that you bought it. Is that what all these pictures indicate? Are you just trying it out, or did you already go ahead and buy it?

Also: everyone else is right: buying a 1970s Porsche as an "investment" when in your other thread you've claimed that you're drowning in debt....is simply not even sane. It doesn't even make financial sense to me, unless there's no way you could better use the hundreds of hours you'll spend on fixing it up working at your, you know, paying job. Given the expenses you'll have to incur, if you make a couple thousand dollars profit after a year or so.....that's like, working for minimum wage, when I assume your regular job pays more than that.

knifecarrier2 · Oct 10, 2012, 09:04 AM

No, I didn't buy it yet. I'm driving it a for a few days to see if the seals swell up and it quits leaking oil. Here's my assessment:

Paint: 4/10. It has paint, but it's pretty terrible. Lots of dings and scuffs and the paint is flaking off and it isn't flat at all. Whatever.
Body: 8/10Straight. Ding in hood from something in cargo area. Dings all over doors. Rust near windshield wiper. Rear big foam bumpers cracking.
Weatherstripping: 1/10 Garbage.
Glass: 10/10 (yay)
Interior: 6/10. Seats are good. Lots of little things are broken or need to be replaced
Targa: 4/10 It's complete but pretty shot.
Brakes: 7/10 Work great, but rear wheels lock up under hard braking. I'm assuming that isn't normal. Didn't check condition of rotors yet.
Tires/wheels : 7/10. Need to be cleaned up but decent
Suspension: 6/10 Decent, but I can tell all the bushings are pretty shot.
Engine: 7/10 It runs great! Remember it's a 2.9 liter so a bump of roughly 25hp over the stock 175, with about 50k on it. Bit of white smoke at startup, then clean. Idles smoothly. Pulls nicely. BAD: Leaks everywhere. Exhaust is pretty ratty, lots of welds to patch up holes. As far as I can tell, the heat doesn't work.

MacinTommy · Oct 10, 2012, 10:30 AM

You need to listen to Dave Ramsey.

knifecarrier2 · Oct 10, 2012, 11:22 AM

There's another factor at play here. Car loans are at a low 2.97%. My student loans are over 6%. Hypothetically, if I could take out a loan for $15,000 to buy the car, but really only pay the owner 5k, I could use the additional 10k to pay student loans, thus lowering my monthly payments significantly.

BLAZE_MkIV · Oct 10, 2012, 11:46 AM

You could also take out a car loan on a car you already own and have paid for already and use that to pay off the higher interest loan. It doesn't even have to be a car. Any semi liquid asset will work as collateral. The problem is taking out a loan for more than the car is worth. Getting a 15k loan for the porsche after you've fixed it up will be easy (but pointless). Before you fixed it, well, someone already mentioned the possibility of an uncollateralize loan.

Shaddim · Oct 10, 2012, 08:46 PM

Originally Posted by knifecarrier2

No, I didn't buy it yet. I'm driving it a for a few days to see if the seals swell up and it quits leaking oil. Here's my assessment:
Paint: 4/10. It has paint, but it's pretty terrible. Lots of dings and scuffs and the paint is flaking off and it isn't flat at all. Whatever.
Body: 8/10Straight. Ding in hood from something in cargo area. Dings all over doors. Rust near windshield wiper. Rear big foam bumpers cracking.
Weatherstripping: 1/10 Garbage.
Glass: 10/10 (yay)
Interior: 6/10. Seats are good. Lots of little things are broken or need to be replaced
Targa: 4/10 It's complete but pretty shot.
Brakes: 7/10 Work great, but rear wheels lock up under hard braking. I'm assuming that isn't normal. Didn't check condition of rotors yet.
Tires/wheels : 7/10. Need to be cleaned up but decent
Suspension: 6/10 Decent, but I can tell all the bushings are pretty shot.
Engine: 7/10 It runs great! Remember it's a 2.9 liter so a bump of roughly 25hp over the stock 175, with about 50k on it. Bit of white smoke at startup, then clean. Idles smoothly. Pulls nicely. BAD: Leaks everywhere. Exhaust is pretty ratty, lots of welds to patch up holes. As far as I can tell, the heat doesn't work.

Eh... I'd walk away and find one with fewer headaches, unless you just want a hardcore project car to put a lot of time, and money, into.

MacinTommy · Oct 12, 2012, 04:36 AM

I'm over this bullshit.

Shaddim · Oct 14, 2012, 01:21 AM

Originally Posted by sg04zw

Plans are to drop the drivetrain this winter, replace seals, start driving next spring. I'll keep you updated.

I hope you're hit by a bus.

ShortcutToMoncton · Oct 14, 2012, 06:07 AM

?????

Spheric Harlot · Oct 14, 2012, 10:50 AM

You act like you've never seen a spammer's aftermath before.

MacinTommy · Nov 2, 2012, 06:30 AM

OVER IT.

knifecarrier2 · Nov 2, 2012, 01:31 PM

Haven't decided yet. It's sitting happily in my garage for the winter.

So... I swung by Accumoto today, as I met one of their techs recently. They're a porsche/vw/audi tuning shop, that specializes in air-cooled 911s. Pretty impressive facility, some fantastic machinery, and what a great staff. Definitely have to give Chaz a shout out for being such a nice guy, Mark (owner) for showing me around the shop, some of the projects they have going on, and Doug, their 911 guru. We went over the car.. and some not so good news.

Good news is they think the chassis is great, almost no rust, and it's straight. Interior is decent, with a nice dash pad.

Bad news is everything is pretty worn. They confirmed what I was afraid of: The engine needs to come out, come ALL the way apart, and new seals everywhere. On top of that, the pushrod covers were 2 piece aftermarket items, and were gubered up pretty well with RTV, as were a lot of other places on the engine. It's like people used RTV instead of seals, which makes me question the work done internally. Is it even a 2.9 liter? Or is it just a 2.7? I was low on oil, so I added some, which turned out to be a bad move, as it leaked like a freakin sieve out of the oil level sensor.

The heat exchangers are totally shot as well. They're smashed and leaking everywhere, and covered with oil, which is why the car stinks so badly. The muffler is rotten as well, and the shifter coupling is completely worn out.

When asked about an appraisal, they said it was 5k, maybe. Tops. But realistically given the amount of work it needs, probably under that.

I'm on the fence. It'd take a LOT of love to get this thing to be a nice driver without smoking all over the place.

Spheric Harlot · Nov 2, 2012, 01:43 PM

Walk away, dude.

You're a car guy.

This will NOT be the last 911 to cross your path.

knifecarrier2 · Nov 13, 2012, 09:31 AM

Laminar · Nov 13, 2012, 01:37 PM

Wow! That square-frame print looks so old-timey and vintage! That's incredible!

knifecarrier2 · Nov 14, 2012, 06:30 AM

Thanks, I'd explain how to do it but it's probably too complicated for you to understand.

Laminar · Nov 14, 2012, 07:35 AM

I'm sure it would be, I'm totally unfamiliar with film developing.

Spheric Harlot · Nov 14, 2012, 07:47 AM

6665/width/350/height/700[/IMG]

ShortcutToMoncton · Nov 14, 2012, 08:02 AM

That image brings a tear to my eye. Oh when the interweb was young...

Spheric Harlot · Nov 14, 2012, 11:31 AM

Classics are classics for a reason.

knifecarrier2 · Nov 15, 2012, 09:54 AM

Like 911s.

mattyb · Nov 15, 2012, 02:25 PM

So, now that everyone who has read this thread has come to the conclusion that its a stupid idea to buy the 911, what have you decided?

Laminar · Nov 16, 2012, 11:20 AM

That the south is stupid.

Spheric Harlot · Nov 16, 2012, 12:36 PM

The South would buy that 911.

MacinTommy · Nov 16, 2012, 12:42 PM

Damn skippy us slow folks down here in tha south would buy that there nine hundred and eleven. Slickest ride I've ever seen.
I'd even paint it like this! HERITAGE NOT HATE BROTHER! WOOOOOO SOUTH WILL RISE!!!! WOOO!
6719/width/350/height/700[/IMG]