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Steve Jobs - another leave of absence
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msuper69
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Jan 17, 2011, 10:08 AM
 
CNN just reported that Jobs is taking another medical leave of absence.

He will remain as CEO and participate in company decision-making.

No details available as to the reason.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 17, 2011, 10:12 AM
 
Just don't let it be cancer.
     
msuper69  (op)
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Jan 17, 2011, 10:13 AM
 
And now the stock will drop
     
Laminar
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Jan 17, 2011, 10:25 AM
 
It's lupus.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 17, 2011, 10:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
It's lupus.
It's not Friday anymore.
     
Person Man
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Jan 17, 2011, 10:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by msuper69 View Post
And now the stock will drop
I look at it more as: "The stock just went on sale."

It will go back up. This will be a good time to buy, though.
     
Hawkeye_a
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Jan 17, 2011, 10:40 AM
 
That was kinda sudden, with the earnings conference call tomorrow and all. Hope he's doing alright.
     
Person Man
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Jan 17, 2011, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
That was kinda sudden, with the earnings conference call tomorrow and all. Hope he's doing alright.
Yeah. And now the whole debate over "should CEOs be required by law to give details or not" starts all over again, and another lawyer with dollar signs in his eyes will find investors who lost money because of this and start another class action lawsuit.
     
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Jan 17, 2011, 10:56 AM
 
AAPL tanking in Europe

FT.com - Markets Data

Down about 7% right now.
     
stevesnj
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Jan 17, 2011, 11:02 AM
 
From what I understand Pancreatic Cancer, which he has, is not curable, it's treatable. If this is what it is about I hope he can beat it again. Unfortunately Pancreatic is one of the deadliest.

Best Wishes Steve!
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Person Man
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Jan 17, 2011, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by stevesnj View Post
From what I understand Pancreatic Cancer, which he has, is not curable, it's treatable. If this is what it is about I hope he can beat it again. Unfortunately Pancreatic is one of the deadliest.

Best Wishes Steve!
Steve did not have the uncurable Pancreatic cancer which is what 95% of it is. He had the very curable neuroendocrine kind, which is 5% of all pancreatic cancers. He would have been dead LONG ago if he had the other kind.

To treat the cancer he had what's known as a Whipple procedure, which is a very radical surgery. People have all sorts of complications afterwards. Yes, these complications could kill him, and you could say it "was the cancer," but that is an indirect effect.
     
Hawkeye_a
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Jan 17, 2011, 11:22 AM
 
FWIW, i think Steve should retire and just spend time with family and maybe work for Apple on a casual basis as a consultant or on the board of directors or something.
     
Phileas
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Jan 17, 2011, 11:48 AM
 
A friend of mine wen through the Whipple procedure, as a preemptive measure. I took his two years to come back to his old self, and even now he still has to watch what he eats and drinks.

He's 20 years younger than Steve, so if a young guy gets knocked about like that I can't imagine how it must have affected Jobs.
     
Phileas
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Jan 17, 2011, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
FWIW, i think Steve should retire and just spend time with family and maybe work for Apple on a casual basis as a consultant or on the board of directors or something.
That's not how people like SJ operate.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 17, 2011, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
That's not how people like SJ operate.
Exactly. You could equally well tell him to off himself. If you identify that strongly with your job, the company is like a child to you.

BTW, it has made front-page news on German newspapers, wow!
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voodoo
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Jan 17, 2011, 12:26 PM
 
SJ is living on borrowed time, the life expectancy for liver transplant patients is around 5+ years, while this may not be anything serious or even liver-related the clock is ticking for him.

I wish Steve Jobs all the best, but I seriously doubt he'll ever return full-time to Apple.

For both parties involved, that's probably for the best as well. Life isn't all about running a tech company (or an iGadgets company) and Apple can survive fine without him.

Who knows, in the long run Apple will give computers a second thought again?
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Eug
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Jan 17, 2011, 01:17 PM
 
And now the stock will drop
I was wondering about that, and then saw it hadn't moved, but then realized it's Martin Luther King Jr. Day in the USA.

Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
Steve did not have the uncurable Pancreatic cancer which is what 95% of it is. He had the very curable neuroendocrine kind, which is 5% of all pancreatic cancers. He would have been dead LONG ago if he had the other kind.

To treat the cancer he had what's known as a Whipple procedure, which is a very radical surgery. People have all sorts of complications afterwards. Yes, these complications could kill him, and you could say it "was the cancer," but that is an indirect effect.
Except that he had a liver transplant. I don't know for sure, but I suspect it was because of extensive liver metastases from his endocrine carcinoma.
     
Person Man
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Jan 17, 2011, 01:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Except that he had a liver transplant. I don't know for sure, but I suspect it was because of extensive liver metastases from his endocrine carcinoma.
Doesn't matter. If he had the bad pancreatic cancer he would have been dead by now. Median survival time after pancreatic adenocarcinoma is diagnosed is 8 or 9 months. Now, he could have had liver metastases from the other kind of pancreatic cancer (which he had), but you can also have liver failure after a Whipple procedure too.

They probably would not have given him a liver transplant if it was due to metastatic cancer. It would have kicked him off the eligibility list. People with metastatic cancer have very short lifetimes so they don't want to "waste" a perfectly good organ on someone who is going to die soon. Not to mention the anti-rejection medications, which suppress the immune system could potentially act like throwing gasoline on a fire with the cancer, causing it to really go berserk.
     
OreoCookie
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Jan 17, 2011, 01:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
To treat the cancer he had what's known as a Whipple procedure, which is a very radical surgery. People have all sorts of complications afterwards. Yes, these complications could kill him, and you could say it "was the cancer," but that is an indirect effect.
Thanks for the info. Are you a doctor (just curious)?
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Laminar
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Jan 17, 2011, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Thanks for the info. Are you a doctor (just curious)?
http://forums.macnn.com/89/macnn-lou...l/#post3947186
     
Eug
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Jan 17, 2011, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
Doesn't matter. If he had the bad pancreatic cancer he would have been dead by now.
That is not correct. The overall 5-year survival is low, but it depends on the stage. For example, for low stage pancreatic adenocarcinoma, the 5-year survival is greater than 20%.

Cancer of the Pancreas - SEER Stat Fact Sheets
http://seer.cancer.gov/publications/...v_pancreas.pdf

The second link spells out the data for exocrine pancreas cancer quite clearly. 5-year survival rates:

Stage IA: 37.3%
Stage IB: 21.0%
Stage IIA: 12.3%
Stage IIB: 6.3%
Stage III: 2.3%
Stage IV: 0.8%
Unstaged: 3.7%


They probably would not have given him a liver transplant if it was due to metastatic cancer. It would have kicked him off the eligibility list. People with metastatic cancer have very short lifetimes so they don't want to "waste" a perfectly good organ on someone who is going to die soon.
Again, that is not correct. Liver transplantation for metastatic endocrine carcinoma is an uncommon but accepted treatment regimen. But that's specifically for endocrine carcinoma, not for pancreatic adenocarcinoma.
( Last edited by Eug; Jan 17, 2011 at 02:05 PM. )
     
Brien
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Jan 17, 2011, 01:55 PM
 
This seems rather sudden. I hope he's alright.
     
Cold Warrior
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Jan 17, 2011, 02:15 PM
 
Expect a lot of analysts to dramatically increase fear, uncertainly, and doubt into the situation, in order to drive down shares and open up huge buying opportunities for large banks and funds.
     
Person Man
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Jan 17, 2011, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
That is not correct. The overall 5-year survival is low, but it depends on the stage. For example, for low stage pancreatic adenocarcinoma, the 5-year survival is greater than 20%.

Cancer of the Pancreas - SEER Stat Fact Sheets
http://seer.cancer.gov/publications/...v_pancreas.pdf

The second link spells out the data for exocrine pancreas cancer quite clearly. 5-year survival rates:

Stage IA: 37.3%
Stage IB: 21.0%
Stage IIA: 12.3%
Stage IIB: 6.3%
Stage III: 2.3%
Stage IV: 0.8%
Unstaged: 3.7%
Those are still very low survival rates, even for early stage cancers. By the time most people are diagnosed with adenocarcinoma it is usually stage III or IV, so what I said about median survival still stands.

Originally Posted by Eug
]Again, that is not correct. Liver transplantation for metastatic endocrine carcinoma is an uncommon but accepted treatment regimen. But that's specifically for endocrine carcinoma, not for pancreatic adenocarcinoma.
I stand corrected. Jobs could have had the transplant for metastatic endocrine carcinoma reasons, then. But I still think it's most likely from the Whipple procedure.

Besides, some new information has come to light that suggests that this is due to the usual side effects of his transplant rather than from his cancer.
     
Person Man
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Jan 17, 2011, 02:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Thanks for the info. Are you a doctor (just curious)?
Yes, I'm a general internal medicine doctor.
     
Doofy
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Jan 17, 2011, 02:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
Yes, I'm a general internal medicine doctor.
...who admires fat birds!
(Opportunity must not be allowed to slip away)
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Eug
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Jan 17, 2011, 02:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
Those are still very low survival rates, even for early stage cancers. By the time most people are diagnosed with adenocarcinoma it is usually stage III or IV, so what I said about median survival still stands.
For those who get a Whipple for pancreatic adenocarcinoma, it's Stage II-III usually. If Stage IV (metastatic) they don't get the operation.
     
Person Man
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Jan 17, 2011, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
For those who get a Whipple for pancreatic adenocarcinoma, it's Stage II-III usually. If Stage IV (metastatic) they don't get the operation.
Yes, but Steve's cancer was neuroendocrine, not adenocarcinoma. Most people tend to overlook that fact.
     
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Jan 17, 2011, 02:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
...who admires fat birds!
(Opportunity must not be allowed to slip away)
LOL! I see what you did there...

And yes, I have no problem admitting that I find fat women attractive. To each his own.
     
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Jan 17, 2011, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
And yes, I have no problem admitting that I find fat women attractive. To each his own.
I know. Else I wouldn't have done it. More fat birds for you, more skinny bids for me - everyone's happy. Except Apple stockholders.

Why oh why do people insist on buying stock which rides on a personality cult? Doesn't seem sensible, somehow.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Eug
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Jan 17, 2011, 02:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
Yes, but Steve's cancer was neuroendocrine, not adenocarcinoma. Most people tend to overlook that fact.
What I'm just saying is your statement that "he'd be dead by now if he had adenocarcinoma" is a little bit misleading.

We now know he had a pancreatic endocrine tumour. However, they would not have known that until they did the operation. In fact, they said as much.

However, since he got the operation, we already know that IF he had adenocarcinoma (not endocrine carcinoma) he would not have been a Stage IV patient. Why? Because they don't do this procedure when its Stage IV adenocarcinoma.

All I'm saying that while you may be right for Stage IIB or III, he could have had Stage I (unlikely) or Stage IIA (possible). Stage IV (which brings down the average even further) is irrelevant in this context.

What about his presumed later liver metastases? Well, they would have come later. They wouldn't have seen them at the time of surgery. If they had seen them, they would have sampled those first, in order to find out what kind of pancreatic cancer he had before going ahead with the Whipple.



Stage I to III get Whipples. Stage IV does not.
     
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Jan 17, 2011, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cold Warrior View Post
Expect a lot of analysts to dramatically increase fear, uncertainly, and doubt into the situation, in order to drive down shares and open up huge buying opportunities for large banks and funds.
This. In the longer term Apple is still a giant cash machine and the stock was tipped to hit $450 before too long. If a bit of fear mongering can knock say 50 points off it in the next week, or ust back down to under $300 then this represents massive potential additional profit for the banks who can hoover it up cheap and wait on the recovery.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
Eug
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Jan 17, 2011, 03:11 PM
 
???

Just about everyone was expecting the stock to drop significantly once Steve Jobs stepped down or asked for another leave of absence. It's no big surprise at all.

It wasn't a matter of if, but a matter of when. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some were thinking of shorting the stock waiting for this day. However, that would have been a poor choice, because nobody knew how high it would go in the interim. A buy at say $300 to short for this reason would have backfired greatly, since after the drop it'd still be $325ish.
     
Person Man
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Jan 17, 2011, 03:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
What I'm just saying is your statement that "he'd be dead by now if he had adenocarcinoma" is a little bit misleading.

We now know he had a pancreatic endocrine tumour. However, they would not have known that until they did the operation. In fact, they said as much.

However, since he got the operation, we already know that IF he had adenocarcinoma (not endocrine carcinoma) he would not have been a Stage IV patient. Why? Because they don't do this procedure when its Stage IV adenocarcinoma.

All I'm saying that while you may be right for Stage IIB or III, he could have had Stage I (unlikely) or Stage IIA (possible). Stage IV (which brings down the average even further) is irrelevant in this context.

What about his presumed later liver metastases? Well, they would have come later. They wouldn't have seen them at the time of surgery. If they had seen them, they would have sampled those first, in order to find out what kind of pancreatic cancer he had before going ahead with the Whipple.



Stage I to III get Whipples. Stage IV does not.
Right. I'm not disputing anything you're saying, but the data you're presenting applies to adenocarcinoma, not endocrine. And they knew Steve had neuroendocrine before he had his Whipple. They did a biopsy beforehand.

My statement that Steve "would have been dead by now" wasn't meant to be misleading. It was based on the fact that most adenocarcinomas (exocrine pancreas) are diagnosed at stages III and IV, and those have extremely poor survival rates. Most stage I and II adenocarcinomas are diagnosed by chance (i.e. patient has a CAT scan for an unrelated problem and "hey! there's something funny looking in the pancreas"). But even so, those still have low survival rates.

So maybe I should have said, "Steve probably would be dead by now if he had adenocarcinoma."
     
Cold Warrior
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Jan 17, 2011, 03:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
???

Just about everyone was expecting the stock to drop significantly once Steve Jobs stepped down or asked for another leave of absence. It's no big surprise at all.

It wasn't a matter of if, but a matter of when. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if some were thinking of shorting the stock waiting for this day. However, that would have been a poor choice, because nobody knew how high it would go in the interim. A buy at say $300 to short for this reason would have backfired greatly, since after the drop it'd still be $325ish.
A drop is expected. What I'm saying is that large investment banks and funds can exploit the situation by increasing, above and beyond, what the natural drop would be. They can drive things much lower through a system of analysts, media personalities, and guests. Most will play along because they're useful idiots, not in on the scam.

Our aapl thread is a good place for this discussion. Lounge mod(s), please move our posts if you want.
     
Eug
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Jan 17, 2011, 03:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
And they knew Steve had neuroendocrine before he had his Whipple. They did a biopsy beforehand.
Ah yes, I stand corrected on that point. I just looked it up and yep, you're right. They were able to get a biopsy of it beforehand.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 17, 2011, 03:25 PM
 
Not to state the obvious, but between the holiday and the earnings call tonight, this thing was timed perfectly.
     
Eug
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Jan 17, 2011, 03:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Not to state the obvious, but between the holiday and the earnings call tonight, this thing was timed perfectly.
Heh. I figured as much about the MLK day but had forgotten about the earnings call. Good point.
     
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Jan 17, 2011, 03:41 PM
 
Here is the official statement on Apple's website.
     
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Jan 17, 2011, 05:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Not to state the obvious, but between the holiday and the earnings call tonight, this thing was timed perfectly.
By Steve.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.”
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The Final Dakar
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Jan 17, 2011, 05:29 PM
 
Speaking of stating the obvious...
     
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Jan 17, 2011, 07:18 PM
 
The comments in the CNN article are about the most depressing sign of immaturity in humanity that I've ever seen.
     
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Jan 17, 2011, 07:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
The comments in the CNN article are about the most depressing sign of immaturity in humanity that I've ever seen.
The comments in ANY CNN article are the most depressing sign of immaturity in humanity.
     
The Final Dakar
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Jan 17, 2011, 08:34 PM
 
The rest of the comments on the internet are feeling very slighted right now.
     
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Jan 17, 2011, 09:56 PM
 
Damn. This news just came out like a freight train. No warning. Bang. One part of me believes he has complications from the liver transplant, and his anti-rejection drugs are causing him to become sick and weak. Like others have said, if the cancer was to recur, it probably would have by now, and got to him long ago. In fact, he did have a sort of rare curable cancer. And with the reports today, it does look like he's suffering immune problems. That would mean anti-rejection drug problems that suppress part of his immune system so it doesn't attack the transplanted foreign liver.

I believe he can bounce back from this. Another part of me sees that, with such a quick slide into being so sick, he could be on his death bed.

I hope he gets better. Whatever anyone says, Apple will not be the same company after he's gone, neither will the tech industry. Now we can look forward to Mark Zuckerberg and all the other idio...
     
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Jan 17, 2011, 09:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The rest of the comments on the internet are feeling very slighted right now.
Ok then, all the comments on the internet are examples of the worst of humanity. Even the examples of the best of humanity.
     
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Jan 17, 2011, 10:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Now we can look forward to Mark Zuckerberg and all the other idio...
I understand why some people don't like Zuck, but an idiot he isn't.
     
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Jan 17, 2011, 10:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phileas View Post
I understand why some people don't like Zuck, but an idiot he isn't.
I should have rephrased that. How about, "nerds". Jobs is kinda a nerd, but not at the same time. He said it best when he called out Andy Hertzfeld and company in an interview in the 90s. It was when Hertzfeld and a few others left Apple to form General Magic. It was a Mobile OS/PDA venture.

Jobs made a comment about PDAs, and about General Magic. He first correctly said that PDAs like the Newton would not be good for consumers. That it was going to be a niche market for business executives. Second, he didn't see much value in General Magic as a business because, paraphrasing, "The people involved are technically adept, but they don't have the sort of psychologies to put on a business suit, get on a plane, and make deals".

Jobs is the perfect balance between a nerd and a businessman. He's unlike most others, and he's able to shake up industries and do what he does because of this. There are so many tech nerds trying to be like Bill Gates and Jobs it's sickening. Everybody is a tech expert now.

We need someone like Jobs, not the Zuckerbergs and Hertzfelds, to push change in the tech industry. Cell phones would still be very boring... multi-touch wouldn't exist yet... etc., without Jobs.

As for Zuckerberg, to be honest, I don't see much value in him because I don't see much value in Facebook (attack me now).

It's ugly, poorly implemented, and not the only game in town. What I see with Facebook is something that illustrates simply how people are like sheep and just follow trends. I don't see it as some brilliant piece of consumer technology like the iPhone, iPod, iPad, Macintosh, etc. Not even close.

More on trend followers, see the now overuse of the grammatically incorrect term:

"Epic Fail". I think the most instances of this are from people on Facebook.

I couldn't have said it better:

Not everything is epic, you ********s.
( Last edited by freudling; Jan 17, 2011 at 11:10 PM. )
     
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Jan 18, 2011, 01:33 AM
 
I don't know enough about the Whipple procedure to comment. Sorry.
     
msuper69  (op)
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Jan 18, 2011, 04:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Person Man View Post
The comments in ANY CNN article are the most depressing sign of immaturity in humanity.
Agreed. I don't bother reading them anymore as they all follow a pattern of hate and ignorance.
     
 
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