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masugu · May 26, 2007, 07:46 PM

OK, everything running up to the Developer conference points to new MacBook Pros and maybe iMacs. However, I am really jonesing for a new MacPro, but having a hard time waiting for the new 45 Nanometer Intel CPUs in Q4. Would prefer to buy the Machine with Leopard pre-loaded as well...

Are there any new MacPro debut rumours???

mduell · May 26, 2007, 10:03 PM

They're overdue for a non-CPU upgrade... component (memory/hard drive/graphics card) prices have fallen a lot since the Mac Pro release, and in some cases (namely GPU) they're completely outclassed.

I'd expect them to adopt the new 45nm chips as soon as they're launched, but that's still a long ways off (late 07/early 08).

bballe336 · May 26, 2007, 10:07 PM

If there isn't something new by WWDC I will not be buying a mac pro, period. It's getting ridiculous at this point. New graphics options should have been available months ago.

Simon · May 27, 2007, 05:55 AM

I'm not really expecting new MPs by WWDC, but I believe they will be updated sometime during August/September. Component prices have dropped and better BTO specs would be available. Although Apple tends to be a bit conservative with the GPUs, there are/will be much better GPUs available (GeForce 8400/8600, Radeon HD 2300). Intel has dropped the price of the chipset already and by July 22 CPU prices are expected to drop dramatically. The quad-core Xeon 53x5 series will cost less than what the current dual-core Xeon 51x0 series costs now.

Phuncz · May 27, 2007, 08:58 AM

I'm also looking to get a Mac Pro in a month or so, I'm hoping for a new GPU option and higher standard specs. The processors are still quite fast but 1GB RAM, Geforce 7300 and a 250GB Harddrive is becoming pretty standard in even 600$ desktop machines.

bballe336 · May 27, 2007, 10:48 AM

Apple are trying to market a high end media machine with cards that have been outdated for over a year. The cards offered weren't even considered high end when the machine came out. The only good thing about apple putting in 8600's (hopefully 8800's but it probably won't happen) is that it would make it a fairly simple hack to get an 8800 in. If there isn't a way to get an 8800gtx in the mac pro after the next update I'm not gonna bother with getting one. At this point apple's graphics options are a complete and total joke.

Phuncz · May 27, 2007, 10:59 AM

It would also help if they included SLI orCrossfire support in their next update, SLI is already working on a Mac Pro with Windows XP. The hardware can handle it, but the MacOS X don't have it enabled.

masugu · May 28, 2007, 01:45 PM

Thanks everyone...So it looks like maybe a graphics / system update post Dev conference...Wonder if the cases will get a revamp or will they wait until after Intel Penryn processors come out? Hmm.

Simon · 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by masugu

Wonder if the cases will get a revamp or will they wait until after Intel Penryn processors come out?

Penryn as a CPU is the successor of Merom. The 45nm (Penryn core) desktop version is Wolfdale (successor to Conroe) or Yorkfield (successor to Kentsfield, two Wolfdale cores on one MCM). Those two won't arrive till the end of 2007 or early 2008. Both are expected not to support SMP so it's questionable if they'll ever be used for the MP.

There will be a 45nm Xeon variant with SMP support. Originally it was expected to be Dunnington, but that has become unclear due to the cancellation of Whitefield. The Hapertown Xeon would be the next possibility, but there we're looking at an eight-core monster with 12 MB L2 cache and it's not known when in 2008 it will arrive.

I have a feeling we'll be seeing the Woodcrest/Clovertown MP stick around for quite a while. And during that time I'm not expecting any changes to the case.

masugu · Jun 2, 2007, 12:18 AM

Thanks Simon. Well, I guess we can hope for better graphics options and maybe blu ray...I dunno

Simon · Jun 2, 2007, 05:43 AM

Definitely! In terms of CPU the MP is doing fine. What we need are better BTO options. Adding better GPUs and BR or HD-DVD BTO options, together with larger HDs and/or more memory would already be a very decent upgrade. Apart from that, I think now it would make most sense for Apple to enter the midrange desktop market (either offer a downspec'ed Yikes-style MP or introduce a new Conroe/Kentsfield HEM). The MP already is a monster.

Phuncz · Jun 3, 2007, 07:02 AM

If they would add the Core Quad processor to the iMac line, it would already help midrange performance a lot. and it wouldn't really endanger the Mac Pro line which can sport dual quad-core processors. The difference between the 24" iMac is still very much different in performance, although it's priced as a more high end system.

masugu · Jun 3, 2007, 02:26 PM

This is a tough one. The mobile market is simply consuming so much of computer sales volumes. What with wireless nearly ubiquitous, the market for big old honking desktops aint what it used to be. I want a Mac Pro of course....I think Phuncz is right...Apple will simply keep the two lines and likely not add much more variety to the desk top space.

There may only be one flavor of Mac Pro for some time....can't believe Apple still had not rolled out a sub notebook. But I digress. My goal is to load up one Mac Pro hard drive with VISTA for games - after they have a decent graphics card solution...and keep the OS X Hard Drive pristinely Apple.

tiger · Jun 4, 2007, 02:56 PM

I was looking into a new Mac Pro, but given the GPU options I've decided to put off my purchase for at least a year. Hopefully then the "crappy" card apple puts in the Mac Pro's will be good enough for dual 23 inch Cinema Displays.

Phuncz · Jun 4, 2007, 04:17 PM

The 7300GT is able to handle two 23" Cinema displays without a problem if I recall correctly.

mduell · Jun 4, 2007, 08:30 PM

The 7300GT will do a 30" (2560x1600) and a 23/24" (1920x1200) at the same time.

tiger · Jun 4, 2007, 11:13 PM

The 7300 GT can handle the displays but once you start doing graphics intensive work you see a slow down, I've seen it. The X1900 has been able to handle the 30 inchers without a glitch. Its just its reliability that I am worried about.

Veltliner · 03:32 AM

I wonder when apple will put a blu-ray drive into their high end desktops.

A "super"drive doesn't cut it when paying premium for a Mac Pro. But maybe apple isn't sure if blu-ray is here to stay. The problems Sony is facing with its Playstation 3 (which was supposed to be the big blu-ray pusher) may partly be responsible for a delay in the decision (and the prices are still where the sputniks hunt: beyond the stratosphere).

Phuncz · Jun 5, 2007, 11:26 AM

Innovation is never without risks, so I doubt Apple is going to wait much longer. The Mac Pro is in a desperate need of a major overhaul and that will happen soon. BluRay will probably be a BTO option. I just hope they won't be asking the premium as I want BluRay but no BR-burner for 3-4x the money.

Veltliner · Jun 6, 2007, 05:19 AM

If they ask premium, there will always be third party-suppliers.

masugu · Jun 6, 2007, 11:48 PM

I do believe Apple needs to step out here...put a bit of a stake in the ground. They were the first to go USB and ditch the legacy ports - even before the PCs for whom USB was meant for did. They need to choose Blu Ray.

Geeky side note - is it just me who is P*ssed off that the Matrix series was released on HDDVD?

I need something to run on my PS3

tiger · Jun 7, 2007, 12:49 AM

I think its to early to tell who's ahead wheter blu-ray or HDDVD and Apple doesn't seem to be taking any chances. But I believe the Mac Pro needs a serious upgrade, the current configurations are obsolete, no 800mhz RAM, no new graphics in over a year... etc. It serisouly needs an overhaul.

Veltliner · Jun 7, 2007, 04:18 AM

It's possibly not only a matter of who needs a blu-ray drive.

But they might do it soon and if only for the matter to give the symbolic message:"We are ahead. We are leading."

tiger · Jun 7, 2007, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by Veltliner

It's possibly not only a matter of who needs a blu-ray drive.

But they might do it soon and if only for the matter to give the symbolic message:"We are ahead. We are leading."

Apple may just be sitting back to see who comes out ahead, whether HDDVD or BluRay, which is a tought one to call at the moment.

mduell · Jun 7, 2007, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by tiger

I think its to early to tell who's ahead wheter blu-ray or HDDVD and Apple doesn't seem to be taking any chances. But I believe the Mac Pro needs a serious upgrade, the current configurations are obsolete, no 800mhz RAM, no new graphics in over a year... etc. It serisouly needs an overhaul.

There are a lot of things the Mac Pro needs, but 800Mhz RAM isn't one of them. 800Mhz FB-DIMMs aren't even available in decent capacities, and there's almost no performance improvement from 667 to 800Mhz.

t500 · Jun 8, 2007, 02:00 AM

The Mac Po case design is pretty old. I'm sure we will see an update soon. Blue Ray is a better option for data storage. I believe apple is feeling pressure to update more often now that PC and Apple hardware can be compared directly... I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

tiger · Jun 8, 2007, 02:46 AM

Apple is having a tought time with BluRay vs HDDVD because most of the major studios have sides with HDDVD, the studios apple is trying to incorporate and negotiate in their iTunes store.

someone · Jun 8, 2007, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by tiger

The X1900 has been able to handle the 30 inchers without a glitch. Its just its reliability that I am worried about.

What reliability issues are you referring to? I've loved my X1900; it has performed beautifully....

Phuncz · Jun 10, 2007, 03:54 AM

That it could give graphical glitches inside 3D apps and games after prolounged use. Because it runs too hot.

Veltliner · Jun 10, 2007, 05:32 AM

Originally Posted by t500

The Mac Po case design is pretty old. I'm sure we will see an update soon.

You could also call it classic design. Or timeless.

There are only so many ways to radically change the design of a computer case, if one doesn't want to get cheesy or childish.

Now, that computers are out of their infancy and do not need radical design change to symbolize radical technical change, a generally liked and accepted design could become established, that won't change that much.

I actually like the brushed metal design and I hope they won't change it radically.

Phuncz · Jun 10, 2007, 02:39 PM

I like it too because for me it is the perfect symbiosis of function and form.

Veltliner · Jun 12, 2007, 11:33 PM

I wonder if apple will go for eSATA.

But as they have their "own" firewire 800 and the speed is not so much faster, apple might not approach it.

What do you think?

bballe336 · Jun 13, 2007, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Veltliner

I wonder if apple will go for eSATA.

But as they have their "own" firewire 800 and the speed is not so much faster, apple might not approach it.

What do you think?

eSATA blows firewire 800 away. Its 4 times faster. But I could care less if Apple added eSATA, you can just buy a SATA cable and plug it into one of the unused slots on the motherboard and put it through a PCI bay. That would cost like $10 for the cable, or less.

mduell · Jun 13, 2007, 02:18 PM

eSATA enclosures ($25ish) are also a lot cheaper than FW800 enclosures ($75ish).

Phuncz · Jun 14, 2007, 07:45 AM

The THEORETICAL speed of eSATA is better but that will only be accomplished with extensive RAID arrays. A single harddisk or even a RAID 0 array would only yield about 100MB/sec max, which is almost as much as FireWire 800. S-ATA 3Gbps is like 350MB/sec theoretical, which needs to be proven first if most chips can handle that. My guess is most chipsets only go up to 100-150MB/sec.

So my guess is they won't incorporate eSATA (yet). In my opinion, the next new connection they would introduce on their lineup is HDMI or DisplayPort. Making it even less cable-hassle and a thinner cable.

mduell · Jun 14, 2007, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by Phuncz

The THEORETICAL speed of eSATA is better but that will only be accomplished with extensive RAID arrays. A single harddisk or even a RAID 0 array would only yield about 100MB/sec max, which is almost as much as FireWire 800. S-ATA 3Gbps is like 350MB/sec theoretical, which needs to be proven first if most chips can handle that. My guess is most chipsets only go up to 100-150MB/sec.

FW800 tops out at 78.6MBps (786.432Mbps with 8B/10B encoding), and SATA '3Gbps' tops out at 300MBps (3000Mbps with 8B/10B encoding). I've seen SATA 3Gbps benchmarks upward of 250MBps, although I can't recall the exact speed.

Quick drives can push over 80MBps each, so FW800 can be a bottleneck with even one, and 2+ drive arrays are becoming quite common these days.

But for single external drives, the price difference is the real advantage of eSATA; the enclosure is only ~25% the price of a typical drive, instead of ~75%.

Simon · Jul 17, 2007, 04:25 AM

Originally Posted by Simon

There will be a 45nm Xeon variant with SMP support. Originally it was expected to be Dunnington, but that has become unclear due to the cancellation of Whitefield. The Hapertown Xeon would be the next possibility, but there we're looking at an eight-core monster with 12 MB L2 cache and it's not known when in 2008 it will arrive.

Finally we know more! Some Intel info on Harpertown (45nm Penryn core) was leaked yesterday. On the Xeon side expect a quad-core with 12 MB L2 cache running at 3.16 GHz on a 1333 MHz FSB. The TDP is 120 W. That's a pretty amazing number if you consider the switch from 45 nm to 65 nm should help reduce the TDP.

More here.

mduell · 05:58 PM

More new Xeon specs, mostly prices: DailyTech - Intel Prices "Penryn" Xeons
There aren't many new duals, so expect the lineup to be pretty much all quads (8 cores in total).

The price of the current dual 2.66 matches with the new quad 2.83, so expect to see that become the base model Mac Pro.
The price of the current dual 2.0 matches with the new quad 2.5, so expect to see that become the downgraded model Mac Pro.
The price of the current dual 3.0 matches with the new quad 3.0, so expect to see that become the upgraded model Mac Pro. They could also put the dual 3.33 in this price slot.

So clockrates up 0-25%, number of cores up 100%, power consumption flat. When was the last time IBM/Moto did that in a year and a half?

evildede · Jul 17, 2007, 06:18 PM

I hope this is true and happens before the end of the year! I can only afford the downgraded Mac Pro, but I wouldn't mind a dual quad 2.5 GHZ at all! Let's hope apple makes it happen... or else

CIA · Jul 26, 2007, 08:47 PM

Perhaps push 8 core machines across the board for the MacPro, again marketing that horsepower to the powerusers. Yeah, not everyone wants 8 cores, some people just want expandability, but still.... Drop a quad core chip into the iMac. Quad consumer/Oct Professional machines.
We all know OSX works well with multi-processing, and Leopard will push that even more....
When my quad G5 is put to shame by a quad iMac, I'll upgrade. (altho I'll never get my current 8GB of RAM into an iMac lol)