[Dogma]

Okay. It's election time again, and who's voting for who?

Choice 1. Labour - Tony Blair and his band of zombies. Again they try to convince us that they are not another rebrand of the 1980's Tory party. More taxes probably, more BS, the usual crap.
Choice 2. Conservative - William Hague the vague leads a motley crew of brain dead backstabbers who would promise you the moon if they thought you might vote for them. No policied to speak of.
Choice 3. Liberal Democrat - Charles Kennedy the ginger teddy bear leads a group of charisma-less pillocks with no idea about what they want to do, let alone what we want. They admit to want to put up tax, and they admit they won't get in to government (well, 10 out of 10 for honesty).
Choice 4. Socialist - Several parties with the same idea. Big Tommy Sheridan in Scotland and Arthur Scargill down south. Great ideas about social equality, equal rights, etc. You never know, but they'res too much greed in this country for it to work.


There is more of course, but that's the most serious contestants. I'm predicting that Labour will get in again, but with a much narrower majority than last time, mostly due to the unprecidented poor turnout. I foresee the Tories regaining a few more votes, but the Lib Dems making more of an impact on Labour. The Socialists will get a couple of seats, mostly in Northern England and Central Scotland, but enough to really get up Tony Blairs fascist nose.

Any thoughts?

[maxelson]

Well, now, from what I understand, Blair has a lock on it. Is the UK beginning to mire down again in the way it did under Maggie? I have always thought that the UK was ripe for a siddling in by the Socialists, but I am also sure that it would be a tough get for them because the US wouldn't like it. Lemme ask you something. How much of what the UK government does is at the behest or approval of the US? My thought is that the Socialists would chuck the proverbial bird at the US and do what needs doing.
On another note, jeez, I love watching the comedy that happens when the PM has to go in a face the house - what is it- every week? That is political comedy at it's best. Terry Gilliam couldn't write that stuff better. Best reason to have CSPAN.

[AM]

Well, I've already cast my postal ballot for:
Choice 5. Scottish Nationalist Party, the main opposition to labour in Scotland and the only main party with any policies which affect Scotland.

[Dogma]

From the people I've spoken to about the SNP I get one clear view. A lot of people are sick of voting for them, and nothing getting done. Unfortunately the SNP don't provide policies that people agree with, except the vote for independance. The SNP and it's politicians only agree with one thing, that they want an independent Scotland, as do the Scottish Socilalists, Communists, and the Green Party. However, a lot of people are concerned about 'wasting' a vote on a party that does not provide any real debate, as proven by their time in the Scottish Parliament. Also with the departure of Alex Salmond as the leader and ntroduction of John Swinney, they have lost a positive character from their stand. John Swinney talks and looks like an accountant, he just does not provoke a sense of confidence in people.

I used to vote SNP, but I now really don't agree with their actual policies. I would vote for an independant Scotland if the Referendum came up.

Oh, and maxelson, the UK has been trying to become a US state for about 40 years now, it was Churchill who first tried to organise it, but we really don't get on that well, it would be a mistake and both sides know this now. The reasons behind their 'friendship' is rooted in the amount of history between the two (a lot of Americans still feel kinship with their Scottish, or Irish ancestry), financially because of the great deal of trade and opportunities the two countries bestow upon each other, and defence as the UK hosts a great deal of US military bases and are an ideal startegic partner for any efforts including Europe.

[AM]

The SNP is far from a single issue party.
1. They support a gradualist move towards independence.
2. In achieving this they want more powers to be devolved to Hollyrood, including giving the Executive control over all Scottish finances - this is supported by 1/3 of the population.
3. They would set up the Scottish Fund for Future Generations. This would invest surplus oil revenues for future use. Since oil was discovered in the North Sea �160 billion of revenue has gone to Westminster a further �85 billion will go over the next 25 years. The SFFG would invest this money as Norway did with their oil revenues (the 6 year old Norwegian Oil Fund is now worth over �30 billion). In 5 years time the SFFG could wield �1 billion a year and in 10 years time would wield more then oil revenues themselves.
4. The SNP would also abolish tuition fees and aims to reintroduce grants.
5. They aim to extend the franchise to under 16 year olds.
6. They aim to reduce primary class sizes to under 18.
4. They support an increae in the minimum wage to �4.36.
etc.

The this is a near socialist minifesto, and the SNP obviously do provide popular policies as they are now the second biggest party in Scotland.

A lot of people are sick of voting for them, and nothing getting done.

That's simply because they have never won an election and formed a government yet. Wait until the Scottish Parliament elections in 2003, the SNP stand a very good chance of winning. Wouldn't it be great to have a party other then Labour in power in Edinburgh and a Labour in power in London.
But I do agree with you, it was a shame to lose Alex Salmond as leader.

It voting SNP is a waisted vote 'cause their not going to win then what's the point of voting at all? The Tories will be lucky to win back any seats in Scotland and no other party has a chance of beating Labour. The truth is that this election is so insignificant in Scotland because the Scottish Parliament handles almost all the policies being fought over.

[Treebeard]

Vote Socialist Alliance or Scottish Socialist Party where you can. Unfortunately, a few socialists like Scargill's SLP aren't part of the SA. Silly of him really.

Vote Green where you can't vote socialist.

And hold your nose and vote Labour in those few places where you can't vote for either. Then go vomit and take a long shower.

I used to live in London, before Tory...I mean Tony Blair was elected. I hated him even then, even though I would have voted for him in '97 (if I had stayed in London and been allowed to vote). That sick, smarmy, plastered smile just made me want to punch him. Every spun word, every arse-licking oration on how wonderful rich people are, every sniveling prostration before the virtues of the free market, every thought of Cherie enforcing the poll tax, every snide comment on how he was proud that he didn't give money to people on the street--this guy is supposed to represent ordinary working people?!?!

That said, like the postal workers just showed, mass direct action gets you a hell of a lot more than a vote. Democracy in the workplace and in the streets is a lot more powerful than democracy once every four or five years.

Cheers

[l'ignorante]

Wow, you really hate this guy. How come you can't vote? Too young, or is Isengard not in England.
Sounds kinda Deutsch .

[ 06-05-2001: Message edited by: l'ignorante ]

[Dogma]

I'm not saying that the SNP do not have commendable ideas and such, but I feel somewhat dismayed that with their large representation in the Scottish Parliament we have not seen those policies come to pass. I suppose it's a sign of British 'Democracy' than the party themselves.
I suppose I'm just not purely for what the SNP stands for anymore. In my little mind, it just makes me angry that a party with such a proprtion of the popular vote isn't making a difference. It's a bit like football - 50% of supporters have always and will always Labour or SNP or whatever, and the rest will change dependent on their own opinion. (that's a guessed statistic). If I don't change my vote dependent on what I believe to be right (sic), then I can't tell other people it is wrong to vote for the same people they've traditionally voted for, no matter what the policies are.

I know that true democracy can never, and will never happen, but it would be nice if our elected despotism were to reflect everyone's ideal.

(If true democracy ever happened, it would take a referundum to decide everything - just too complex to happen)


P.S. For all your serious political debate, come to MacNN!

[Treebeard]

Originally posted by AM:
<STRONG>The SNP is far from a single issue party.
1. They support a gradualist move towards independence.
2. In achieving this they want more powers to be devolved to Hollyrood, including giving the Executive control over all Scottish finances - this is supported by 1/3 of the population.
3. They would set up the Scottish Fund for Future Generations. This would invest surplus oil revenues for future use. Since oil was discovered in the North Sea �160 billion of revenue has gone to Westminster a further �85 billion will go over the next 25 years. The SFFG would invest this money as Norway did with their oil revenues (the 6 year old Norwegian Oil Fund is now worth over �30 billion). In 5 years time the SFFG could wield �1 billion a year and in 10 years time would wield more then oil revenues themselves.
4. The SNP would also abolish tuition fees and aims to reintroduce grants.
5. They aim to extend the franchise to under 16 year olds.
6. They aim to reduce primary class sizes to under 18.
4. They support an increae in the minimum wage to �4.36.
etc.

The this is a near socialist minifesto, and the SNP obviously do provide popular policies as they are now the second biggest party in Scotland.

</STRONG>

Then why not vote for the real thing and vote Scottish Socialist Party. They support all this and more.

I get sick of the SNP because they talk out both sides of their mouths--half left, half right.

To the extent they talk left, they're popular. To the extent they talk right, they're acceptable to Scottish (and British and multinational) business. To my mind, you end up with this lukewarm, mealy-mouthed middle-ground that pleases no one.

But at least you didn't vote Tory. Do they even bother scrounging for votes in Scotland anymore? ("Oy mate. Spare a vote?" "Piss off!")

[Treebeard]

Originally posted by l'ignorante:
<STRONG>Wow, you really hate this guy. How come you can't vote? Too young, or is Irsengard not in England.
Sounds kinda Deutsch .</STRONG>

Nah. I live in America now. Left London for Atlanta in Jan 97.

(If you don't know what Isengard is (or what my name or signature means), wait until this winter and check out a little movie called "Lord of the Rings." Or better yet, read the books. Great read.)

Sure I hate Blair. Doesn't everybody? But that doesn't mean I didn't share a few pints back in 97 when the Tories got their arses handed to them. And I would have voted for him too (if for no other reason than to tell the Tories just how much everybody hates them). But now that there's the SA and SSP to vote for, why not vote for something that you want (SA/SSP), rather than for something you don't want but think you should (i.e., New Labour).

Besides that, a good friend of mine is running on the SA ticket in East London--Sally Labern. She became a socialist in the Miners' Strike in '84 and has been an activist and fighter ever since. It's not even a question to me of whether to vote for her or some millionaire "Labour" pillock who hasn't laboured a day in his or her life.

Cheers.

[l'ignorante]

I think I asked this before ( a political thread started by Cheerios), with the district voting system, is it not completely useless to vote for the smaller parties?