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White Smoke From Sistine Chapel - New Pope? (Page 5)
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ironknee
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Apr 20, 2005, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zimphire
Tolerence as in, treating people nicely.

Not tolerance as in accepting different viewpoints other than his own. He still called a sin a sin.
how is that truly tolerant if you smile at someone and all but think he's going to hell because he....whatever....

isn't that two-faced?

Originally Posted by Randman
I like The Sun's headline, callin him PAPA RATZI.
     
SimpleLife
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Apr 20, 2005, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee
how is that truly tolerant if you smile at someone and all but think he's going to hell because he....whatever....

isn't that two-faced?



Tolerance

1. tolerance -- (the power or capacity of an organism to tolerate unfavorable environmental conditions)
2. permissiveness, tolerance -- (a disposition to allow freedom of choice and behavior)
3. tolerance -- (the act of tolerating something)
4. tolerance -- (willingness to recognize and respect the beliefs or practices of others)
5. allowance, leeway, margin, tolerance -- (a permissible difference; allowing some freedom to move within limits)
Tolerance has nothing to do with being nice.

"The British were tolerant towards the IRA". Otherwise, they might have exterminated them.

Anyway

Unknown to many members of the church, however, Ratzinger�s past includes brief membership of the Hitler Youth movement and wartime service with a German army anti- aircraft unit.

Although there is no suggestion that he was involved in any atrocities, his service may be contrasted by opponents with the attitude of John Paul II, who took part in anti-Nazi theatre performances in his native Poland and in 1986 became the first pope to visit Rome�s synagogue.
We have no choice but to consider the Pope human, with its weaknesses and mirky past, like any of us.

My biggest gripe with him is the self-proclamation of being a humble servant. Humble people show as such, and do not proclaim it.

Unfortunately, I see myself more and more negatively biased towards him.
     
ASIMO
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Apr 20, 2005, 07:31 PM
 
The pope can go to proverbial hell.


Just like every man.
I, ASIMO.
     
ironknee
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Apr 20, 2005, 10:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by SimpleLife
Tolerance



Tolerance has nothing to do with being nice.

"The British were tolerant towards the IRA". Otherwise, they might have exterminated them.

Anyway

i stand corrected...
     
RonnieoftheRose
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Apr 20, 2005, 10:29 PM
 
I just love it when people use symantics, long words and character assassination to censor or stifle discussion. The White House really set a good example for Americans to imitate.
     
Randman
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Apr 21, 2005, 02:23 AM
 
Oh ronnie, just when you start to make sense, you fall back on your trite political commentary.

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Big Mac
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Apr 21, 2005, 03:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose
I just love it when people use symantics, long words and character assassination to censor or stifle discussion. The White House really set a good example for Americans to imitate.
Semantics and "long words"? Whatever are you talking about, and what does the White House have to do with anything contained in this thread?

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Millennium
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Apr 21, 2005, 06:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee
how is that truly tolerant if you smile at someone and all but think he's going to hell because he....whatever....

isn't that two-faced?
Are you suggesting that in order to tolerate sin one must deny it?
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Millennium
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Apr 21, 2005, 06:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose
I just love it when people use symantics, long words and character assassination to censor or stifle discussion. The White House really set a good example for Americans to imitate.
I will assume that you're referring to me. How exactly was I trying to stifle discussion? All I did was call your epistemology (i.e. "definition of thought") into question. Admittedly, doing this undermines your entire set of arguments, but last I checked that was a valid debating technique.

Epistemology is not a trivial thing. What does it mean to think? What does it mean to know something? These things have not been fixed in stone throughout the centuries, and as they have changed the world has changed around them. Most people take their own definitions of these terms for granted, but this is a big mistake.

As for the White House setting an example, are you talking about words like "misunderestimated" and "strategery"? Or are you talking about words like "is" and "not"?
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Randman
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Apr 21, 2005, 06:21 AM
 
Sadly, I came across a movie review of The Interpreter where there writer coined the term assassinator, as in her character has a history as murky as those of the potential assassinators.

Not a Yank, thank the lord.

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Deimos
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious
No, you are the one who has failed to understand. Y

You should have been far more clearer as to what you were referring to, then. From your post, it was clear you were making wide-ranging, generalist remarks, hence my reply.
     
Deimos
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by UnixMac
I thought the self comforting words were "pro-choice".. Odd that you would chose to say "pro-abortion".

It's people like you that make me more and more Catholic and less and less "tolerant" of other views.

Why? It's how we say it in my country.
     
Deimos
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by Zimphire
Indeed. And most don't even realize it. They are too busy patting themselves on the back for being so open minded and "modern"

I think sometimes people become so open minded their brain falls out.
In comparison to being so close-minded that you have no brain?
     
Deimos
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Zimphire
I love that phrase. "Free Thinking"

I usually get payed to think. You got the short end of the straw bub.
Then you're quite blind as to what the term means.
     
Deimos
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Zimphire
Actually it was retarded wording.

And that was my point.

I take it you missed the in my reply.
     
Deimos
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
The problem with the phrase "free thinking" is that it's a relativist value system springing forth from an absolutist epistemology (that is to say, a definition of what it means to think). This epistemology defines relativism as the 'natural' way of thinking, and lumps anyone not subscribing to this epistemology into three categories: the insane, the evil, and the brainwashed. The similarity of this to the Right's view of terrorists -whether or not that view is correct- is startling, and ought to be noted.
.

Haven't come across such a narrow definition of "free-thinker" in such a long time, or one so pedantic in nature.

Perhaps put the book down and observe those around? Just a thought.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
Zimph, I hate to break the news to you, but his sig isn't quite a direct quote of anyone (thus the "Fixed" bit). It's a mutation of my own sig, which in turn quotes our own LaGow's thoughts on the Macintosh design philosophy. Although it is an adequate example of true freedom of thought, it does not account for the absolutist epistemology of "freethought".
Then I was right.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose
Well, I'm not Christian so I must be an 'unspiritual' heathen like everyone else who criticises the Church the Rome. Anyone for a witch burning?
Hmm, I have criticized Catholicism and haven't gotten called any such thing.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee
how is that truly tolerant if you smile at someone and all but think he's going to hell because he....whatever....
I do that? Actually, I like to think everyone I know is going to heaven. But I am a optimist that way. I don't have any special powers to see who is and who isn't going.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Deimos
In comparison to being so close-minded that you have no brain?
That makes no sense. If my "mind" was closed, it would keep my brain right in place.

But ok. Not that it matters. I am VERY open minded. That is why I came to religion in the first place.

But I would never open my mind to just ANYTHING.
Originally Posted by Deimos
Then you're quite blind as to what the term means.
No, I know what you want it to mean also.

You don't act like a free thinker. You are only open to what you believe.

Just like the rest of us.

If you were such a free thinker, religion wouldn't bother you so much.
     
Deimos
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
I will assume that you're referring to me. How exactly was I trying to stifle discussion? All I did was call your epistemology (i.e. "definition of thought") into question. Admittedly, doing this undermines your entire set of arguments, but last I checked that was a valid debating technique.

Perhaps it's because you're assuming such people are strict adherents to that "philosophy"? You could be right in regards to some people, but by no means is it universally applicable. It's the same with religion.

Mind you, if I used "free-thinking" as my basis for observation, then how do I rationalise adopting many Islamic principles in my life, as well as Jewish, Gnostic, etc?

If you look back on my post in which I used the term "free-thinker", it was deliberately chosen as the antithesis of the Catholic sentiments I used. Nothing more, nothing less, and certainly not used to make me out to be some blinded follower of one thought process.
     
Deimos
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Zimphire
That makes no sense. If my "mind" was closed, it would keep my brain right in place.
.

It makes perfect sense in relation to what you original said. It's merely putting across the opposite definition of what you posted.

Meaning: both are stupid remarks.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:37 AM
 
No, you just took what I said, and reversed it. That doesn't mean it makes sense.

Open mind = Things Fall out. Like say an open container.

Closed mind, things stay in, but nothing else gets it.

Now you could have made it work that way, but you didn't.

Not that It matters, again, I have a very open mind. Just because one doesn't accept everything, doesn't mean they are closed minded.

Take you for example, you aren't closed minded just because you don't agree with certain religious aspects now are you?

Of course not.

Too many people think Not thinking like they do = Close minded.

Which is kinda funny.
     
Deimos
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by Zimphire
No, you just took what I said, and reversed it. That doesn't mean it makes sense.

Open mind = Things Fall out. Like say an open container.

Closed mind, things stay in, but nothing else gets it.

That's the point! You over-generalised on one thing, and I pointed out your folly. It makes perfect sense because your definitions are just as inane as the opposite. Your logic in explaining away your error falls at the first hurdle.

No matter how you to interpret your meaning, it's just so dumb that it doesn't need commenting on.

Yet, you're still trying to qualify it.
     
Deimos
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Apr 21, 2005, 07:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by Zimphire
No, I know what you want it to mean also.

You don't act like a free thinker. You are only open to what you believe.

Just like the rest of us.

If you were such a free thinker, religion wouldn't bother you so much.
Then you applied your understanding of "free-thinker" onto me. Did you take into consideration what I meant by it? Why not ask me to elaborate? Assumptions don't always lead you to the answer.

One reason I used the term, was to highlight the Catholic hierarchy's point of view on abortion, its meaning, effects, and impact on their members, but perhaps I should have stated it differently.
     
LaGow
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Apr 21, 2005, 08:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose
I just love it when people use symantics, long words and character assassination to censor or stifle discussion. The White House really set a good example for Americans to imitate.
Dictionaries are good things. I use Sherlock's dictionary module all the time--even though it's not as good as the paper kind--and it really helps. Try it--it may widen your world.
     
Millennium
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Apr 21, 2005, 10:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Deimos
Haven't come across such a narrow definition of "free-thinker" in such a long time, or one so pedantic in nature.

Perhaps put the book down and observe those around? Just a thought.
All right. Since you apparently won't take my word for it, check Google for definitions. If you don't want to check Google, there are plenty of other search engines and dedicated Websites you can look at. Almost all of the definitions I've found explicitly include a rejection of many different models of thought, and often they hold up only one as valid (or, in some cases, don't outright reject other models but hold their own as supreme).
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Millennium
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Apr 21, 2005, 10:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Deimos
Mind you, if I used "free-thinking" as my basis for observation, then how do I rationalise adopting many Islamic principles in my life, as well as Jewish, Gnostic, etc?
Because you're a real freethinker, not this pseudo-freethinking claptrap which has usurped the real meaning of the term. I sincerely apologize if I didn't make clear enough the fact that I drew this distinction.
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Millennium
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Apr 21, 2005, 10:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee
how is that truly tolerant if you smile at someone and all but think he's going to hell because he....whatever....

isn't that two-faced?
I responded to this once already to ask if you were saying that in order to tolerate sin, one must deny sin. I'd like to clarify this some more: the concept of tolerance outright requires disapproval. After all, if you don't disapprove of anything, then what is there that requires tolerance?

If you don't wish for us to continue rejecting the morality of certain things, this is your prerogative, but it means that you are in fact trying to make us change our beliefs, not fighting for tolerance. A fighter for tolerance would respect these beliefs but argue that they do not constitute a valid basis for discrimination.

This said, I suppose this mistake is nothing if not consistent with the pattern of failing to distinguish between what a person does and who a person is, in that it fails to make a very similar distinction: one between what a person does and what a person believes.
( Last edited by Millennium; Apr 21, 2005 at 12:26 PM. )
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ironknee
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Apr 21, 2005, 12:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zimphire
No, you just took what I said, and reversed it. That doesn't mean it makes sense.

Open mind = Things Fall out. Like say an open container.

Closed mind, things stay in, but nothing else gets it.
things fall out? like what?? like your brain?

the mind is not a physical thing is it?...and why do things fall OUT? of you are open minded, then things COME IN (different viewpoints, that tolerance thing, LEARNING, accepting, etc)
     
turtle777
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Apr 21, 2005, 12:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee
things fall out? like what?? like your brain?

the mind is not a physical thing is it?...and why do things fall OUT? of you are open minded, then things COME IN (different viewpoints, that tolerance thing, LEARNING, accepting, etc)
No sh!t...



-t
     
RonnieoftheRose
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Apr 21, 2005, 12:48 PM
 
     
Millennium
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Apr 21, 2005, 12:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose
I didn't say that all religious people were intelligent, now did I? In fact, I don't think anyone has. Zimphire gets as much of a kick out of these supposed sightings as you or I.

Besides, what's this 'Virgin Mary' business? That salt stain is clearly an image of Cthulhu
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ironknee
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Apr 21, 2005, 01:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Millennium
I didn't say that all religious people were intelligent, now did I?
i'll agree to that
     
RonnieoftheRose
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Apr 21, 2005, 02:23 PM
 
1.1 billion Catholics!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4469653.stm

Back to the samba.
     
The Godfather
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Apr 21, 2005, 11:18 PM
 
While we are still on this topic, can someone translate this?
     
RonnieoftheRose
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Apr 21, 2005, 11:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Godfather
While we are still on this topic, can someone translate this?
Pope John Paul II was stuck in traffic when he got hit by a meteorite. It's name was Maurizio Cattelans and was on its way to the Royal Academy in London.
     
Zimphire
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Apr 22, 2005, 07:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Deimos
That's the point! You over-generalised on one thing, and I pointed out your folly. It makes perfect sense because your definitions are just as inane as the opposite. Your logic in explaining away your error falls at the first hurdle.

No matter how you to interpret your meaning, it's just so dumb that it doesn't need commenting on.

Yet, you're still trying to qualify it.
Wow a whole post with no substance but "You are teh wrong because I said so"

You sure showed me.
     
von Wrangell
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Apr 22, 2005, 08:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Godfather
While we are still on this topic, can someone translate this?
....snipped image.....
Strange(play with words Strange and art used together). Pope John Paul II struck by a meteorite. This is the artists blah blah contribution to the exhibition in the Royal Academy in London.

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
 
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