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Why are so many church services lame? (Page 2)
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lpkmckenna
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May 14, 2010, 12:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
"Five aggregates are empty of intrinsic existence"... Is this just verbal masturbation? What does this mean?
Time to go Tyler Durdan...

You are not your body.
You are not your feelings.
You are not what you see, hears, smell, touch, or taste.
You are not what you think, believe, or value.
You are not your awareness of the world.

So, who are you?
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 14, 2010, 12:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Time to go Tyler Durdan...

You are not your body.
You are not your feelings.
You are not what you see, hears, smell, touch, or taste.
You are not what you think, believe, or value.
You are not your awareness of the world.

So, who are you?

At some point I may have some questions for you if I delve further into researching Buddhism For right now, the emptiness stuff is over my head. Do you feel like you understand it yourself?
     
lpkmckenna
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May 14, 2010, 12:36 AM
 
No, I'm stalled at the "so who are you" part. I think the answer only comes with Nibbana.
     
olePigeon
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May 14, 2010, 12:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
So, who are you?
[Stalone] I'm your worst nightmare. [/Stalone]
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
hyteckit
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May 14, 2010, 01:31 AM
 
To see the light of wisdom, you first must empty your cup.

Morpheus to Neo: I'm trying to free your mind. There is no spoon.

Steve Jobs, a follower of Zen Buddhism, tells you to 'Think Different'.


Food for thought, but only on an empty stomach:

http://atheism.about.com/od/philosop...ixbuddhism.htm
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
auto_immune
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May 14, 2010, 04:04 AM
 
Hey Besson, check out these two books:


Mind Beyond Death

The Tibetan Book of the Dead
     
Doofy
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May 14, 2010, 07:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Yeah, except that sort of deep meditation takes years and years to master. The translator today said he's been working on understanding the concepts of emptiness for 30 years.
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I agree with Big Mac on this, perish the thought. Spiritual enlightenment is not easy. It requires using your head. You can't just pray for understanding, you have to work for it.
Look Bess, I've just told you the fastest way of doing it. In the end you can spend 30 years trying to get there with your head but no matter how much you try to intellectualise it it'll only come when you dismiss the head and open the heart. There is no other route.

The peeps who spend 30 years doing it? It takes them that long to figure out how to put their head aside.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Doofy
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May 14, 2010, 07:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
For right now, the emptiness stuff is over my head.
Do you have a pet? Observe your pet.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 14, 2010, 09:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Look Bess, I've just told you the fastest way of doing it. In the end you can spend 30 years trying to get there with your head but no matter how much you try to intellectualise it it'll only come when you dismiss the head and open the heart. There is no other route.

The peeps who spend 30 years doing it? It takes them that long to figure out how to put their head aside.

What makes you so self confident that you are "there"?
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 14, 2010, 09:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Do you have a pet? Observe your pet.

You clearly don't know what emptiness is in the context of Buddhism.
     
Doofy
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May 14, 2010, 09:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
You clearly don't know what emptiness is in the context of Buddhism.
So teach me, master.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 14, 2010, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
So teach me, master.

Have you been reading this thread?

Why don't you read this, if you really are interested? Śūnyatā - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
Doofy
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May 14, 2010, 10:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Have you been reading this thread?
Yes. Have you?

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Why don't you read this, if you really are interested? Śūnyatā - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I assume that the next lesson will be you teaching me how to play an open Am on the guitar?

You're not seeking enlightenment Bess - you're seeking an intellectual challenge.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 14, 2010, 03:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Yes. Have you?



I assume that the next lesson will be you teaching me how to play an open Am on the guitar?

You're not seeking enlightenment Bess - you're seeking an intellectual challenge.

Maybe you're seeking confirmation of an understanding of something you don't really understand? But then again, you seem to understand everything, so maybe I'm out to lunch.
     
Big Mac
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May 16, 2010, 02:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
What about in today's world? Are miracles still considered to be performed? And if not, is there particular point in time where that ability was lost?
That's a good question. It depends on how one defines a miracle. I think there are examples of open miracles on the world stage in modern times. But if you're talking about open miracles done by individual miracle workers, then it's quite rare. Based on religious Jewish thought, open miracles started becoming rare when the Anshei Knesset HaGadolah (Men of the Great Assembly) closed the gates of prophecy in the era of the last prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures. The rarity of open miracles also has to do with the balancing of light and darkness. Judaism teaches that in order for humanity to have free will, there has to be a certain balance between divine truth and falsehood in the world. In ancient times that balance was achieved by the strong tendency toward idolatry and polytheism. Back then most everyone in the world had a religious impulse, although much of it was toward false religions. Since most everyone was religious, open miracles could be commonplace without negating free will. In the modern world the balance is achieved by the tendency toward atheism. If open miracles were allowed today in a widespread way, they would negate the possibility of atheism and thus eliminate the balance that provides for free will. It is prophesied, however, that at some point in the future we will indeed see a return of open miracles (along with the prophecies of the Messianic age being fulfilled), and the signs point to that future being very close.

In the relatively modern era the first Jewish figure who comes to mind as an accepted Jewish worker of miracles was the Baba Sali who passed away in 1984. There is also the general notion that some of our great rabbinicial leaders, Tzadikkim (purely righteous ones), have miraculous powers.
( Last edited by Big Mac; May 16, 2010 at 06:36 AM. )

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
lpkmckenna
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May 18, 2010, 08:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Do you have a pet? Observe your pet.
I am 100% certain that the Buddha would disagree. The lower animals are even more bound by the 5 fetters than we are.
     
Doofy
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May 18, 2010, 09:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
I am 100% certain that the Buddha would disagree.
I'm 100% certain that if I said "Barack Obama is the president of the United States", you would disagree with me.

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
The lower animals are even more bound by the 5 fetters than we are.
Proof?
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 18, 2010, 09:27 PM
 
What are the 5 fetters, Doofy?
     
Doofy
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May 18, 2010, 09:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
What are the 5 fetters, Doofy?
Something which your cat is free from, Bess.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 18, 2010, 09:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Something which your cat is free from, Bess.
So why would you debate something you don't understand?
     
Doofy
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May 18, 2010, 10:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So why would you debate something you don't understand?
I don't know why you'd do that Bess.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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May 19, 2010, 09:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
That's a good question. It depends on how one defines a miracle. I think there are examples of open miracles on the world stage in modern times. But if you're talking about open miracles done by individual miracle workers, then it's quite rare. Based on religious Jewish thought, open miracles started becoming rare when the Anshei Knesset HaGadolah (Men of the Great Assembly) closed the gates of prophecy in the era of the last prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures. The rarity of open miracles also has to do with the balancing of light and darkness. Judaism teaches that in order for humanity to have free will, there has to be a certain balance between divine truth and falsehood in the world. In ancient times that balance was achieved by the strong tendency toward idolatry and polytheism. Back then most everyone in the world had a religious impulse, although much of it was toward false religions. Since most everyone was religious, open miracles could be commonplace without negating free will. In the modern world the balance is achieved by the tendency toward atheism. If open miracles were allowed today in a widespread way, they would negate the possibility of atheism and thus eliminate the balance that provides for free will. It is prophesied, however, that at some point in the future we will indeed see a return of open miracles (along with the prophecies of the Messianic age being fulfilled), and the signs point to that future being very close.

In the relatively modern era the first Jewish figure who comes to mind as an accepted Jewish worker of miracles was the Baba Sali who passed away in 1984. There is also the general notion that some of our great rabbinicial leaders, Tzadikkim (purely righteous ones), have miraculous powers.
Interesting stuff. I'll have to do a little more reading on this - thanks.

greg
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Zeeb
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May 19, 2010, 12:18 PM
 
The vast majority of lame Christian church services are due to the fact that many pastors/priests are very poor public speakers and not terribly creative in their sermons. These sermons usually cover the basic boring tired out grade school level material you've heard endlessly. Occasionally, you'll get an intelligent pastor/priest who will deliver a sermon that is unique, interesting, thoughful and designed for those with more than a 4th grade education. Since its so rare to find these sermons, I don't go to church anymore.

I've been to several Buddhist services and they were very cool for awhile -- but I saw some things there I didn't terribly like either. Toward the end of the service, the faithful were offered a short meeting with the Sensei. Apparently, he had ten slots and there were no appointments--it was first come first served. So, during this otherwise peaceful service and meditation, there was suddenly a rush of about 30 desperate people to meet with him. I can't imagine what he could possibly say that would be worth such an effort. But those turned away sure had a disappointed look on their face. Anyway, the buddhist temple started repeating itself as well. It turns out they encourage you to buy several books and go on retreats and stuff to "get the full experience". It was then that I realized that this was just a smiling money pit like so many others.

I like reading about religious philosophies and there is a lot of compassion there -- but the way modern churches/temples run it seems more like you're a part of the development department of a non-profit organization. Not for me thanks.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 19, 2010, 12:27 PM
 
Zeeb: yeah, there was a ton of Buddhist swag and other stuff for sale around the vicinity when the Dalai Lama came here, that and the expensive sessions were definitely a turnoff. I got through it assuming that none of that stuff including ticket pricing was the DLs direct doing, but the local Tibetan Cultural Center, the venue, and other various groups... Still, the monetizing sure made it pretty ugly.

Then again, the monetizing is a Western thing.
     
Zeeb
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May 19, 2010, 02:22 PM
 
True, the monetizing is a Western/American thing and I try to take that into account. I also understand that these organizations have building/utility/program expenses and have to pay the bills. It's just the approach sometimes is aggressive, overly commercial, and commoditized.
     
Doofy
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May 19, 2010, 02:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Then again, the monetizing is a Western thing.
Not really. Buddhist monks throughout history have expected punters to give them stuff in return for enlightenment.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
lpkmckenna
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May 19, 2010, 03:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Not really. Buddhist monks throughout history have expected punters to give them stuff in return for enlightenment.
Monks don't "give enlightenment" to anyone.
     
lpkmckenna
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May 19, 2010, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
I'm 100% certain that if I said "Barack Obama is the president of the United States", you would disagree with me. ... Proof?
You really aren't interested in discussing Buddhism, are you?
     
Doofy
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May 19, 2010, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
You really aren't interested in discussing Buddhism, are you?
Mu!
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Doofy
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May 19, 2010, 03:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Monks don't "give enlightenment" to anyone.
So, Bess didn't go for a session or two with the DL then. Good show.

Your pedantry is boring, mckenna.
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finboy
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May 20, 2010, 01:31 PM
 
If "lame means <> Sesame Street, then that pretty much sums up church.

The other extreme is snake-handling. Somewhere in the middle is all the 3-year-olds standing up to sing "because it's cute."

Most folks don't bother to go to church to see a show. They go for the social experience.

I will never understand the mega-church. We have a ton of them here, and it just seems so commercial. I grew up in church, because we participated in church. It wasn't for us, it was for others. We already KNEW what we believed, but it was fun to read The Bible together and stuff, and hear my Sunday School teacher pronounce all the Old Testament names. We went to DO THINGS like visit nursing homes to sing, have parties for ill children, etc. That was the point. Maybe, if the megas can do MORE of this kind of thing, then that's good. I haven't seen it though.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 20, 2010, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Zeeb View Post
True, the monetizing is a Western/American thing and I try to take that into account. I also understand that these organizations have building/utility/program expenses and have to pay the bills. It's just the approach sometimes is aggressive, overly commercial, and commoditized.

They also have a tactical advantage as knowing that Buddism is relatively rare in this country.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 20, 2010, 02:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
So, Bess didn't go for a session or two with the DL then. Good show.

Your pedantry is boring, mckenna.

A lama is a teacher, a monk is a devout practitioner in training, so to speak.

Is there anything you don't know?
     
Doofy
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May 20, 2010, 03:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Is there anything you don't know?
Yes. I don't know anything about Linux.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
besson3c  (op)
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May 20, 2010, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Yes. I don't know anything about Linux.
Surely that doesn't stop you from having opinions about it?
     
auto_immune
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May 21, 2010, 10:16 AM
 
Here is a cool link for you, Besson.

khandro.net
     
 
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