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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Downtown Toronto - 40ish arrested today so far, police cars torched. (Pix)

Downtown Toronto - 40ish arrested today so far, police cars torched. (Pix)
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Eug
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Jun 26, 2010, 08:19 PM
 
( Last edited by Eug; Jun 26, 2010 at 08:25 PM. )
     
Cold Warrior
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Jun 26, 2010, 08:23 PM
 
Reminds me of Baghdad in 2006. WTF is going on there?
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 26, 2010, 08:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by cold warrior View Post
reminds me of baghdad in 2006. Wtf is going on there?
G8 and G20
     
Wiskedjak
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Jun 26, 2010, 08:42 PM
 
There's nothing that ticks me off more than "peaceful protests" that inevitably turn violent and organizers who say "our people aren't the violent ones". That may be so, but their peaceful protesting creates the perfect smokescreen for those who want to be violent. And then they wonder why nobody is listening to their message. They need to find a way to get their message across that doesn't make them look like a bunch of terrorists.
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 26, 2010, 08:49 PM
 
What ticked me off was that some umbrella protest organizations who claimed not to be violent, refused to denounce violent protests by others. That position is completely laughable.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jun 26, 2010, 08:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
What ticked me off was that some umbrella protest organizations who claimed not to be violent, refused to denounce violent protests by others. That position is completely laughable.
Yep. *They* plan to be peaceful but they seem to passively encourage the violent protesters.
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 26, 2010, 09:01 PM
 
The good news is that so far there are no major injuries (except to police cars).

BTW, Prime Minister Harper just issued a statement and also called the violent protestors "thugs". Seems to be a popular term today.











Apparently there are around 20000 police on the streets.

--

Violent protests in Vancouver now too.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-col...0-protest.html

( Last edited by Eug; Jun 26, 2010 at 09:12 PM. )
     
besson3c
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Jun 26, 2010, 09:34 PM
 
The incoherence to what they are protesting is so incredible... On the CTV link in the first post somebody wrote this comment:

Imagine a country where Parliament is padlocked twice in 13 months to frustrate the democratic will of the elected majority. A country that slyly relaxes environmental regulations even as its neighbour reels from a catastrophic oil leak blamed on slack controls. A country that boasts about prudent financial management while blowing through a $13-billion surplus on the way to a $47-billion deficit. A country where a political operative puts fork-tongued words in a top general’s mouth. A country that refuses to fund the same safe abortions to poor women abroad as it provides at home. A country where the national police commissioner skews a federal election and is never forced to explain. A country that writes a covert manual on sabotaging Commons committees. A country dragging its climate change feet as the true north melts. A country that silences political debate on the sale of a publicly owned, crown jewel corporation. A country that puts higher priority on building super-prisons than keeping people out of them. A country where parties that win the most federal seats are dismissed as “losers”. A country that twists its foreign policy around the interests of another nation. A country that argues that barricading its largest city promotes tourism. A country that promises Senate reform only to continue stuffing it with political hacks. A country that avoids answers about a controversial war by accusing questioners of supporting the enemy. A country where party apparatchiks decide who in a nominally free press is allowed to ask the Prime Minister questions. A country where donut shop wisdom is more prized than expert analysis. A country that builds a fake lake for a tough-times summit. A country that preaches law and order while killing a long-gun registry police chiefs insist makes citizens safer. A country that promises accountability only to impose secrecy. That country is now this country.

Okay, but all of this sounds like pretty generic stuff that you could probably say about most governments. What does violent and destructive protesting accomplish here?
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 26, 2010, 09:34 PM
 
     
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Jun 26, 2010, 10:13 PM
 
     
mduell
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Jun 26, 2010, 10:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Okay, but all of this sounds like pretty generic stuff that you could probably say about most governments. What does violent and destructive protesting accomplish here?
Right now you can do it with attention and friends.
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 26, 2010, 10:33 PM
 
At last count, which was an hour or two ago, there have been around 75 arrests today.


Originally Posted by mduell View Post
That's great. I would have to liked to see Air Force 1 though too.

BTW, tomorrow should prove interesting. I need to go downtown to pick up a couple of tourists who are staying at a hotel there. I told them not to come this weekend, but this was the only option for them, for scheduling and visa reasons.
     
Phileas
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Jun 26, 2010, 11:12 PM
 
We drove from Parkdale to St. Lawrence Market earlier on today - a dinner date that we couldn't move. We took Dundas to make sure that we were north of the core, then dropped down on Jarvis. Didn't see anybody, not a single protester. What surprised me was how many shoppers were out on Yonge, just a normal Saturday.

On the way back we just hopped on the Gardiner, little traffic, no problems.

You always have violent assholes at these occasions. The problem is often that the legitimate protesters don't make enough of an effort to keep these shits a: under control and b: assist the cops if needed.
     
subego
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Jun 27, 2010, 01:38 AM
 
OT, but I'm still floored by how much Toronto looks like Chicago.




( Last edited by subego; Jun 27, 2010 at 01:58 AM. )
     
ghporter
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Jun 27, 2010, 10:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
OT, but I'm still floored by how much Toronto looks like Chicago.
And Detroit. And apparently parts of New York. To be honest, Toronto was the first "big city" I ever visited outside of Detroit, and I think I'm spoiled by that. Houston isn't a "city" as much as a bunch of buildings randomly scattered around some acreage, Dallas is more centralized but it's mostly freeway, not city. San Antonio is an old city, but it's not nearly as big in terms of buildings and "downtown" area as Toronto. Most recently I got to experience Seattle, and it's very "small city" feeling to me. But Toronto is very big city to me.

Today's paper here says that more than 400 have been arrested so far. I'm quite sad that so many so unpleasant people have gone to so much trouble to be so much trouble in such a nice place. I guess this just proves that anything can be spoiled by people who want to spoil it.

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analogue SPRINKLES
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Jun 27, 2010, 11:03 AM
 
Eug why don't you have a blog? The second this started I was wondering why you hadn't posted a thread on MacNN yet. You can call it "Local Internet News - From Peacocks to Protests"

Anyway, these violent protestors are pathetic. They are obviously stupid and angry and the only way they make them feel empowered is by smashing stuff.
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 27, 2010, 11:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Eug why don't you have a blog?
I do, about Apple stuff - check my sig - but I also enjoy your snarkily stalky comments in almost every one of my threads.


Anyway, these violent protestors are pathetic. They are obviously stupid and angry and the only way they make them feel empowered is by smashing stuff.
Yeah, and I'm glad they made lots of arrests. Now it seems a whole bunch of arrests were from non-physically-violent protestors, but I hope that they also caught a lot of the physically-violent protestors and will actually prosecute them.

What a bunch of pricks. Reporters are saying a bunch of them came, smashed a few things, changed into regular clothes, and then left. Fortunately, some brave reporters photographed a whole bunch of these guys as they removed their balaclavas, etc.
     
ghporter
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Jun 27, 2010, 11:27 AM
 
I saw a picture of some jerk sitting in a smashed up police car, eating what looked like a doughnut. He was disheveled and unkempt looking, and smug as well. This is the same look I have seen on the hoodlums who "celebrate" their teams' victories by rioting. Not to derail, but WTF is up with that?

Anyway, while a lot of people have been arrested, that doesn't mean they'll all be charged, and sorting out who was breaking stuff and who was just waving a sign and shouting will take some time. The real issue later will be how many people get charged with what. "Disorderly conduct" works for people blocking streets and harassing passers by, but assault, property damage crimes, and even rioting are what's appropriate for the violent ones.

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residentEvil
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Jun 27, 2010, 11:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I saw a picture of some jerk sitting in a smashed up police car, eating what looked like a doughnut. He was disheveled and unkempt looking, and smug as well. This is the same look I have seen on the hoodlums who "celebrate" their teams' victories by rioting. Not to derail, but WTF is up with that?

Anyway, while a lot of people have been arrested, that doesn't mean they'll all be charged, and sorting out who was breaking stuff and who was just waving a sign and shouting will take some time. The real issue later will be how many people get charged with what. "Disorderly conduct" works for people blocking streets and harassing passers by, but assault, property damage crimes, and even rioting are what's appropriate for the violent ones.
uhm; that donut eating thug is posted like 6 posts above yours
     
Cold Warrior
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Jun 27, 2010, 12:14 PM
 
That guy looks like Encino Man.
     
residentEvil
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Jun 27, 2010, 12:20 PM
 
hahahaha; yup.
     
ghporter
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Jun 27, 2010, 12:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by residentEvil View Post
uhm; that donut eating thug is posted like 6 posts above yours
Yeah. I didn't see the picture when I read the latest post... I thought I'd seen it in my paper today.

And Cold Warrior is right, he looks like Brendan Frasier in Encino Man.

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residentEvil
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Jun 27, 2010, 12:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
Yeah. I didn't see the picture when I read the latest post... I thought I'd seen it in my paper today.

And Cold Warrior is right, he looks like Brendan Frasier in Encino Man.
just giving you crap

     
residentEvil
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Jun 27, 2010, 12:30 PM
 
and speaking of brendan/encino man...

just watched "in the army now" (i've seen it dozens of times). and just realized when brendan made his cameo; his army name patch said "Link". hahaha i can't believe i never noticed that before.

/ot
     
starman
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Jun 27, 2010, 01:03 PM
 
Only in Amer....oh, wait.

Home - Twitter - Sig Wall-Retired - Flickr
     
Big Mac
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Jun 27, 2010, 01:06 PM
 
Is most of this scum anarchist, or what? What percentage is communist? Anyone care to link to some leftist articles written in support of such conduct?
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 27, 2010 at 01:12 PM. )

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
ghporter
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Jun 27, 2010, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by residentEvil View Post
just giving you crap

S' OK. There's just no "embarrassed" smiley, and I really wanted one for that post.

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Eug  (op)
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Jun 27, 2010, 10:43 PM
 
>600 arrests - New record for Canada, and similar to the Battle of Seattle.

It will be interesting to see how many are actually the violent ones, and how many get prosecuted.

--

Re: Looking like Chicago. One big bonus... and drawback... is the plethora of old buildings. They often look cool, but are often also a nightmare to maintain unless totally renovated. I remember going into a beautiful stone building at the University of Toronto, to a meeting. The meeting room had a bazillion pipes and ducts grafted on to try to get some semblance of modern heating/cooling... but it still didn't work properly. It was so bad, I'd seriously consider getting a new job if staying in my job meant working in that building.

And don't get me started on those who want to declare every single derelict building over 50 years old as a heritage site...
( Last edited by Eug; Jun 27, 2010 at 10:50 PM. )
     
downinflames68
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Jun 27, 2010, 11:17 PM
 
Looking at the pictures, I definitely see lots of thugs. Uniformed, organized, thugs.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jun 28, 2010, 01:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Is most of this scum anarchist, or what? What percentage is communist? Anyone care to link to some leftist articles written in support of such conduct?
I doubt you'll find any leftist articles written in support of the violence. Generally, the leftists at these protests will say that they're there peacefully and that they don't support the violence. However, they do very little to discourage the violence, I suspect because otherwise reporters wouldn't ask them if they support the violence, giving them an opportunity in front of a video camera with a wide audience to say what they're protesting.
     
besson3c
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Jun 28, 2010, 01:16 AM
 
If you look at the gripes that people have in some of the story comments on the various Canadian media sites you'll see a mixture of what would left, right, and fairly non-partisan issues. I've come across stuff from people complaining about a lack of gay rights, environmental standards, but also lots of general anti-government stuff which from an American perspective would be more Conservative.
     
Koralatov
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Jun 28, 2010, 04:04 AM
 
Why is it that every time a bunch of quote–unquote anarchists (read: jackasses) start smashing shit up, people always assume ‘the left’ are involved and/or complicit?
     
Shaddim
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Jun 28, 2010, 04:32 AM
 
"The Left" seem to be the ones who were there in the largest numbers, and even if they weren't directly involved with the violence, "if you lay down with dogs, etc. etc.".
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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Big Mac
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Jun 28, 2010, 04:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Koralatov View Post
Why is it that every time a bunch of quote–unquote anarchists (read: jackasses) start smashing shit up, people always assume ‘the left’ are involved and/or complicit?
Because the Left is associated with violent, disorderly riots. Some leftists use similar tactics, have similar goals and openly ally themselves with the "anarchists." I call them anarchists because their obvious goal is to destroy property and harm civil society.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 28, 2010 at 05:02 AM. )

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besson3c
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Jun 28, 2010, 04:55 AM
 
Anarchists by definition are anti-government, so there is no formal association, and right-wing protesters certainly have used similar tactics too, so... Point?

Need we derail another good thread with more diatribes about the left/right? Not everybody is as committed as you are into reaffirming your narrow beliefs about the evils of those that think differently than you, Big Mac.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 28, 2010, 05:16 AM
 
Thanks for the instruction, Head Master besson. But would you care to point out for the class examples of right-wing protesters acting out in similarly violent ways?

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
besson3c
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Jun 28, 2010, 05:24 AM
 
Are you serious? How about the anti-abortion protesters that bomb abortion clinics?

Google "right wing protesters", tons of examples.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 28, 2010, 06:27 AM
 
1. Regarding abortion clinic bombers, that's a pretty rare phenomenon that has become even rarer in recent years, aside from a couple of high profile slayings and ensuing murder trials. There are only a handful of violent abortion incidents listed on Wikipedia, and the phenomenon is predominately an American one. In contrast, violent anarchist-leftist protests happen every single G20 meeting internationally.

2. My search of right-wing violent protesters didn't yield much at all. The majority of the hits referenced white supremacist marches, and given their affinity for the National Socialist Party I don't consider them right-wing at all. They're not on the far right, as the liberal media likes to claim. In actuality they are on the far left-wing of the spectrum and have much more in common with other violent leftists. The only meaningful distinction is that they have at their core racist agendas that aren't found overtly among the normative radical left.

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besson3c
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Jun 28, 2010, 06:39 AM
 
Anarchist-leftist protesters... Do you not see how this is an oxymoron?

Whatever, sorry Eug!
     
Big Mac
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Jun 28, 2010, 06:50 AM
 
No, I think there is significant overlap between the types of anarchists at the G20 riots and the types of leftists there. And in fact, pure Marxist communism calls for no government at its final stage of development, so in a real way Marxist utopian communists are advocating anarchy (but they're still correctly called leftists).

I love being right (that's a pun).
( Last edited by Big Mac; Jun 28, 2010 at 07:17 AM. )

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Eug  (op)
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Jun 28, 2010, 07:20 AM
 
Big Mac, your pseudo-analyses are getting rather tiresome. The fact of the matter is the vast majority of the organized protests whether left or otherwise were peaceful, but a select few, specifically those with balaclavas and dressed in black (and not part of those organized protests) were violent. Furthermore, the Black bloc is not a communist organization.

In fact, those peaceful protestors when interviewed on TV were pissed. Their messages got pushed out completely. All the media coverage was about violence. All the peaceful protests (which were the majority) were completely ignored.

I guess the biggest criticism was that the peaceful protestors didn't do more to try to exclude these Black Bloc people. There were several on TV that yelled at them and told them to leave, but obviously that wasn't enough. And when the Black Bloc started getting violent, the rest of the crowd just stood back and watched. I guess it's understandable to a certain extent, since the Black Blac people were crazy, and armed with weapons. It's sort of like a crowd watching a mugging. Most do nothing unfortunately.
     
Big Mac
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Jun 28, 2010, 07:26 AM
 
Eug, are you and besson one and the same by any chance? There's nothing pseudo about my analyses. Besides, it's your thread that's pointing to all the violence. I'm just framing it in the proper political context.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
Phileas
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Jun 28, 2010, 08:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
"The Left" seem to be the ones who were there in the largest numbers, and even if they weren't directly involved with the violence, "if you lay down with dogs, etc. etc.".
That is quote is downright dangerous to Democracy. Shaddim, I can't believe that you've thought this through.

There were many a good reason to go to the streets and let our leaders know that all isn't well, that there are issues to be tackled. The right to demonstrate, to make your opinions known, is a pillar of our free society. Take that away and we've got Tiananmen Square.
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 28, 2010, 08:37 AM
 
So I drove downtown today, to work. Back to the same old-same old... except for the temporary detention centre at the Toronto Film Studios, with 10 foot high fences around and and lots and lots of police, as well as a heavy police presence on a couple of street corners.

Originally Posted by Eug View Post
I guess the biggest criticism was that the peaceful protestors didn't do more to try to exclude these Black Bloc people. There were several on TV that yelled at them and told them to leave, but obviously that wasn't enough. And when the Black Bloc started getting violent, the rest of the crowd just stood back and watched. I guess it's understandable to a certain extent, since the Black Blac people were crazy, and armed with weapons. It's sort of like a crowd watching a mugging. Most do nothing unfortunately.
On my drive to work I was listening to the radio, and they were interviewing some of the journalists that were on the street witnessing the violence and vandalism. Some reporters said they got the urge to intervene, but ultimately didn't because they were genuinely frightened, not to mention that their job was really to observe and document the news, not to become part of that news.

-----

Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Eug, are you and besson one and the same by any chance?
That statement is pretty good evidence of your very limited perspective on things..

There's nothing pseudo about my analyses. Besides, it's your thread that's pointing to all the violence. I'm just framing it in the proper political context.
Correction. You are just framing it in your own predetermined political beliefs.

Since you seem to want to harp on this, I would suggest starting a new thread in the poli-war forum.
( Last edited by Eug; Jun 28, 2010 at 08:43 AM. )
     
Wiskedjak
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Jun 28, 2010, 08:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Because the Left is associated with violent, disorderly riots. Some leftists use similar tactics, have similar goals and openly ally themselves with the "anarchists." I call them anarchists because their obvious goal is to destroy property and harm civil society.
I thought the Left was associated with peace-nicks and bleeding-heartism?

I think, rather, the Left is associated with large, disorderly protests that often become smokescreens for people who want to be violent (see the guy eating the donut in the trashed police car. I doubt he has *any* political leaning). The problem is that the organizers of these protests seem to imagine some sort of advantage in not discouraging the violence that almost inevitably results from large protests.
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 28, 2010, 08:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
I thought the Left was associated with peace-nicks and bleeding-heartism?

I think, rather, the Left is associated with large, disorderly protests that often become smokescreens for people who want to be violent (see the guy eating the donut in the trashed police car. I doubt he has *any* political leaning). The problem is that the organizers of these protests seem to imagine some sort of advantage in not discouraging the violence that almost inevitably results from large protests.
Actually, the next day (Sunday) there were a lot of protest organizers that were declaring over their megaphones: "We are a non-violent protest. Anyone who wants to promote violence, please leave now, as you are not wanted here."

The sad part for these groups was that the ONLY media coverage they got was around statements like the above. Their protest messages were otherwise completely ignored.

It's clear that non-violent protestors need to get more savvy in their approach, to help ensure the safety of their own, the public, and security forces, and to ensure their peaceful messages get heard and aren't drowned out by a few hooligans.

Actually, there was one that seemed to work. They were all on bicycles, and moving quickly. I guess the Black Bloc didn't foresee needing bicycles to participate and therefore weren't a part of it. That said, few in the public seem to know what the cyclists were actually protesting about. More bike lanes for car-dominated Toronto city streets maybe?
     
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Jun 28, 2010, 09:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
No, I think there is significant overlap between the types of anarchists at the G20 riots and the types of leftists there. And in fact, pure Marxist communism calls for no government at its final stage of development, so in a real way Marxist utopian communists are advocating anarchy (but they're still correctly called leftists).

I love being right (that's a pun).
Isn't the capitalist ideal *also* no government?
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 28, 2010, 09:25 AM
 
Indeed. I guess he's never heard of (or is conveniently ignoring) pure (anarcho) capitalism, which is supposed to be the ultimate expression of capitalism according to some theorists.

In other words, shoehorning left of centre protests (like pro cheap maternal health care in developing countries or whatever) into made up theoretical constructs is at best just stupid, and at worst, intentional misinformation. I would suggest moving that idiocy to the poli-war lounge.
     
subego
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Jun 28, 2010, 10:39 AM
 
I thought one of the tenets of anarcho-capitalism was not depriving others of their liberty through violence.
     
Eug  (op)
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Jun 28, 2010, 11:40 AM
 
Yes, at least by some descriptions. However, we're just responding to the incorrect suggestion that the concept of "no government" is somehow unique to the far left. Cuz it isn't.

The point is that throwing in theoretical absolutes as "evidence" in this context really is a waste of time, and serves no purpose outside pigeonholing people into artificial groups.
     
 
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