[Wiskedjak]

The fact that Apple relented to a right click button when it could implement one without a seam in the Mighty Mouse tells me that Apple's concerns were more about brand appearance than about usability.

[Spheric Harlot]

They DID implement it without a seam. How else would they have done it? Two separate clickers? Talk about user confusion!

Originally Posted by Eug 

In theory, except even Apple software these days doesn't always follow this rule, and even when it does, it makes it a major PITA in terms of usability.

No. I agree that Apple themselves are ****ing this up; the Dock example I used is one such case. (I can't actually think of others off the bat. Can you? - other than, say, something highly complex like Motion or Final Cut, where users are professionals and can be reasonably expected to deal with additional complexity. Actually, I did just think of another - Logic Pro's toolbar can only be configured by right-clicking it directly. That really pissed me off.)

Usability != Practicality.

Usability == absence of confusion about purpose.

Before you tell me that all users are fully aware of what the right-click does, I'll go right ahead and tell you that they aren't, and that's not even starting to deal with the lefties.

A second mouse button IS confusing, and it's STUPIDLY confusing once software vendors can expect it to be there - PowerDVD under Windows is a wonderful example. There's no command for Full-Screen *anywhere*. Not in Preferences. Not in Window Options. Not in View. Nowhere. *Except* in the context-menu. Sure, once I've found it, I know.

But why should I have to look for basic functionality? In every single program?

What you say may have been true before the age of OS X, but we've been using OS X for almost a decade now.

The complete opposite is true.

OS X's interface was FINALLY redesigned with the original Macintosh maxim - "The Computer for the Rest of Us" - in mind, after a decade-and-a-half of bolting crap onto what started as a simple, good idea.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by Simon 

As a researcher I can guarantee you that in science and academia, X11 is not just some option. Everybody uses it. All the time. In most cases no X11 means the computer's useless. And with something as essential as middle-click simply NOT POSSIBLE on this latest mouse, I can assure you nobody in my line of work will ever buy or select the mouse with their new Mac. So maybe this mouse was targeted at 14-year old iTunes users only, but what's for sure is that it has been designed in such a way that it excludes a substantial part of Apple's professional customer base.

"Macintosh: The Computer for the Rest of Us."

Special uses, special tools.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Except Apple violates this in crazy places. The only way to open a package is a context-click in the Finder, and the only way to access the spelling suggestions is a context-click. They both should be accessible via the menu and keyboard shortcut.

Sorry, but you're wrong on both counts:

"Show Package Contents" is available from the little tool menu in the Finder window toolbar.

Double-clicking on a misspelled word and selecting "Edit" --> "Spelling and Grammar" --> "Show Spelling and Grammar" gives you the exact same choices as right-clicking the word. AND it's right there in the correct menu, hierarchically, exactly where you'd expect it to be.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Special uses, special tools.

No, not really. Their previous wireless mouse did middle-click just fine. So it's quite surprising they replaced it with one that can't. It's as if they're deliberately trying to drive customers away. I fail to see how that's a good thing for their customers or their shareholders.

[Spheric Harlot]

The middle button and squeeze buttons in their default settings were driving people away.

They were the first thing I disabled on any system I worked on, and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why Apple would build such a braindead annoying "whoops" feature - until I met one person who used them constantly.

I didn't know about X11.

Still makes more sense to cater to their target audience primarily though - and that's average users.

[Simon]

It's just a shame a company which prides itself on design couldn't figure out a way to target one audience w/o shutting out another. But no worries, other companies will fill the void.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

The middle button and squeeze buttons in their default settings were driving people away.

They were the first thing I disabled on any system I worked on, and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why Apple would build such a braindead annoying "whoops" feature - until I met one person who used them constantly.

Ah, but the point is, *you could choose not to use them*. When they aren't there initially, those of us who can figure out what to do with extra buttons at our finger-tips are unable to enable them.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Ah, but the point is, *you could choose not to use them*. When they aren't there initially, those of us who can figure out what to do with extra buttons at our finger-tips are unable to enable them.

To me, the side buttons were way too sensitive, and they are exactly where my fingers grip the mouse to move it-I was always accidentally clicking them, which was very frustrating. I'd have liked to have had other options for extra buttons, perhaps have a number of points where those buttons could be triggered (sort of like designer locations for buttons).

But the extra stuff hardly "drove me away" any more than the scroll ball did. I used my Mighty for over 2 years. I am currently using a cheap Logitech mouse because the last time I cleaned my Mighty, I broke the flex cable from the scroll unit. I'm just not comfortable with a mouse I have to change the batteries in, so I'm skipping the Magic Mouse.

[Eug]

The scroll ball drove me away because it is a POS. I like scroll wheels though. I liked the Expose side buttons. To make it n00b friendly, they could just turn them off in the default settings if they wanted.

IBTW, don't like the Bluetooth-ness of it either. Eats batteries like mad, and not 100% reliable pairing.

P.S. I'm still waiting for my Magic Mouse to be delivered (with my iMac).

[ghporter]

The battery thing makes me shy away from the Magic Mouse too. I have a nice Targus BT mouse, and it's a royal pain to keep in batteries. I use rechargeables, and have two pairs that rotate between the charger and the mouse. At this point, the reader may notice that immediately before Eug's post, I said I was using a cheap Logitech mouse...this is because of how much of a pain the BT mouse is. I'll use it with my MBP when I need both USB ports at the same time, but otherwise I'll just leave it at home.

[hyteckit]

Looks like the magic mouse might take off and fly away.

Oh damn, there it goes!

[hyteckit]

Apple should just built in a multi-touch trackpad onto their keyboards.

Kinda like this:

http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/43...hub=1&cl=us,en

[Eug]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Apple should just built in a multi-touch trackpad onto their keyboards.

I was thinking the same thing, but then thought it'd be difficult to make ergonomic and aesthetically pleasing at the same time, because the trackpad should be more flat than at the angle of the keyboard.

So, they decided to just build it into the mouse, but unfortunately are constrained by the mouse-ness of the mouse and really limited the gesture functionality of the unit.

I still hold out hope that increased functionality will be introduced as the software for the Magic Mouse matures.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I was thinking the same thing, but then thought it'd be difficult to make ergonomic and aesthetically pleasing at the same time, because the trackpad should be more flat than at the angle of the keyboard.

So, they decided to just build it into the mouse, but unfortunately are constrained by the mouse-ness of the mouse and really limited the gesture functionality of the unit.

I still hold out hope that increased functionality will be introduced as the software for the Magic Mouse matures.

I'm not saying they should abandon the mouse.

But as the MacOS has a lot more multi-touch and gesture support, it would be nice having a multi-touch pad built into the keyboard.

[Eug]

My main point was that putting it in the keyboard could be problematic as then the trackpad would be at an awkward angle. However, if they corrected the angle for the trackpad so that it's different from the angle of the keyboard, then it might be ugly. Plus then there's the issue of where to put it, assuming you keep the arrow keys and the numeric keypad. You could put it in the model without the numeric keypad, but quite frankly I'd much rather have the numeric keypad than a trackpad. BTW, I ordered the wired version of the keyboard with my iMac, because I find it annoying not to have a numeric keypad.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

My main point was that putting it in the keyboard could be problematic as then the trackpad would be at an awkward angle. However, if they corrected the angle for the trackpad so that it's different from the angle of the keyboard, then it might be ugly. Plus then there's the issue of where to put it, assuming you keep the arrow keys and the numeric keypad. You could put it in the model without the numeric keypad, but quite frankly I'd much rather have the numeric keypad than a trackpad. BTW, I ordered the wired version of the keyboard with my iMac, because I find it annoying not to have a numeric keypad.

Why would it be problematic?

I've been using Apple laptops with a trackpad for over 10 years.

Considering the magic mouse's profile is too low to be ergonomic in the first place.

Have a keyboard with a built-in multi-touch pad. Ditch the low profile magic mouse and develop an ergonomic mouse with real buttons and a scroll wheel.

The magic mouse is an interesting device though.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Grabbed a Magic Mouse yesterday.

Likes:
- 360° scroll is really nice
- right-clicking finally works well
- slim is really nice for travel
- it doesn't feel uncomfortable. I'll report back again after using it for a work day.

Dislikes:
- scroll-zoom isn't anything new. Holding ctrl to zoom the screen while scrolling will work on any mouse. (and really, Apple's "just hold crtl or command to do X" has always annoyed me. That isn't "it just works")
- two-finger swipe only works in Safari and iPhoto
- the edges are a little sharp for comfort
- no middle-mouse button (which I use quite a bit in browsers to open links into new tabs).

Wants:
- programmable "buttons"
- more multi-touch functionality. Having multi-touch limited to 1 action in 2 applications reduces it to being a gimmick at best.

Additional thoughts after a few days of use at work.

Likes:
Bluetooth: Having a Bluetooth mouse and keyboard allows me to take my laptop to meetings while minimizing the number of things I need to unplug and replug (I'm down to just power and external monitor now). Batteries aren't really a problem since I just walk over to the supply closet when I need new ones.

Two-finger Swiping: Now works in Firefox and is much easier to use than I thought it would be.

Sharp edges: You can't really hold this mouse like a regular mouse. The edges dig into the palm of my hand. I find myself pushing it around more with my fingers than with my hand. But, it moves really easily so it doesn't really bother me (yet, at least).

Repositioning the mouse: Moving the cursor across multiple monitors often requires a mouse to be repositioned. This is tricky with the Magic Mouse given it's really thin profile. Even trickier is when you're dragging something across multiple monitors.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Why would it be problematic?

I've been using Apple laptops with a trackpad for over 10 years.

Laptops and their trackpads are horizontal, parallel to the floor.

Desktop keyboards are tilted. A trackpad on a keyboard would have to be tilted, or else the keyboard would have to have a flat part and a tilted part.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Laptops and their trackpads are horizontal, parallel to the floor.

Desktop keyboards are tilted. A trackpad on a keyboard would have to be tilted, or else the keyboard would have to have a flat part and a tilted part.

Which might not be bad for ergonomics. Ideally, keyboards should be level rather than tilted towards you. A tilted keyboards narrows your carpal tunnel, increasing your chance for carpal tunnel syndrome.

[Eug]

Proper ergonomics have the wrists raised above the table and a tilted keyboard.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Laptops and their trackpads are horizontal, parallel to the floor.

Desktop keyboards are tilted. A trackpad on a keyboard would have to be tilted, or else the keyboard would have to have a flat part and a tilted part.

I have no clue what you are talking about. The trackpad on the Apple laptops are parallel with the keys on the keyboard.

I have a Logitech DiNovo Keyboard Edge Keyboard. It has a trackpad that is parallel with the keys.

I don't know why you must insist a desktop keyboard must have a flat part and a tilted part just be it has a trackpad.

[hyteckit]

I actually own a microsoft natural keyboard.

I love that keyboard. Very comfortable.



I'm trying to find a picture of Apple's ergonomic keyboard.

[hyteckit]

Found it. Apple's split ergonomic keyboard.

[hyteckit]

Look what I've found. What the hell is this keyboard?!! ibm-m15?

Has a trackpad in the middle.



Haha... Whoa!

What is this? Victorian style?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

I have no clue what you are talking about. The trackpad on the Apple laptops are parallel with the keys on the keyboard.

I have a Logitech DiNovo Keyboard Edge Keyboard. It has a trackpad that is parallel with the keys.

I don't know why you must insist a desktop keyboard must have a flat part and a tilted part just be it has a trackpad.

Laptops are not generally considered to have ideal ergonomics.

1) When a laptop is sitting on the table, the laptop's screen is too low, forcing the user to look downward. This can be decreased by pushing the laptop back, but then the keyboard is out of reach, and on-screen text is too small because of higher pixel densities on laptop screens.

2) When the laptop is sitting on the table, the keyboard is flat, which can cause issues for wrist comfort for extended use.

That's why when using a laptop as a primary computer, the recommended ergonomics is to have the laptop sitting on a stand to elevate the screen, and to use a separate keyboard and mouse.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Laptops are not generally considered to have ideal ergonomics.

1) When a laptop is sitting on the table, the laptop's screen is too low, forcing the user to look downward. This can be decreased by pushing the laptop back, but then the keyboard is out of reach, and on-screen text is too small because of higher pixel densities on laptop screens.

2) When the laptop is sitting on the table, the keyboard is flat, which can cause issues for wrist comfort for extended use.

That's why when using a laptop as a primary computer, the recommended ergonomics is to have the laptop sitting on a stand to elevate the screen, and to use a separate keyboard and mouse.

Okay?

But how does that explain why having a trackpad on a keyboard that is parallel to the keys is bad ergonomics?

I honestly don't think a trackpad that is flat or slightly tilted makes any difference.

I think the magic mouse has really bad ergonomics.

I think the best ergonomic keyboards are the ones with a split in the middle with the right half of the keys slightly tilted to the right and the left half of the keys slightly tilted to the left. Seems the most comfortable to me and I can type for like 10 hours straight on those.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

But how does that explain why having a trackpad on a keyboard that is parallel to the keys is bad ergonomics?

I honestly don't think a trackpad that is flat or slightly tilted makes any difference.

Take your laptop and tilt the trackpad up. Then try using it for an extended period, esp. with pinch gestures.

I think the magic mouse has really bad ergonomics.

My guess too is the ergonomics isn't good on the Magic Mouse, but I've never used it.

I think the best ergonomic keyboards are the ones with a split in the middle with the right half of the keys slightly tilted to the right and the left half of the keys slightly tilted to the left. Seems the most comfortable to me and I can type for like 10 hours straight on those.

I think those keyboards are good for ergonomics.

You'll also note that those keyboards are tilted.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Proper ergonomics have the wrists raised above the table and a tilted keyboard.

If you're going to tilt your keyboard, you should be tilting it *away* from you to minimize strain in your carpal tunnel.
Guide to Setting Up an Ergonomic Computer Station - Positioning the Keyboard
http://www.ergoindemand.com/ergonomic-keyboarding.htm

[Eug]

You should not tilt the keyboard back too far up, no. However, if you tilt it backwards, it's extremely uncomfortable. Try it and see.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

You should not tilt the keyboard back too far up, no. If you tilt it backwards, it's extremely uncomfortable. Try it and see.

I have my Apple keyboard at work tilted away from me. It's very comfortable.
Of the current generation of ergonomic keyboards, when they tilt, they're usually tilted *away* from the user. Most ergonomists recommend no tilt or negative tilt.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I have my Apple keyboard at work tilted away from me. It's very comfortable.
Of the current generation of ergonomic keyboards, when they tilt, they're usually tilted *away* from the user. Most ergonomists recommend no tilt or negative tilt.

I presume you have it mounted on a tray below the table? If so, that can make sense. But for most people if the keyboard is sitting on the table and tilted the way you describe that would cause more harm than good. Extremely uncomfortable.

Either that or you arguably have the seat and/or table height at the wrong height. If so, and if the mouse is sitting on that table, that would make things quite uncomfortable for using the mouse, unless you have it elevated.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

I presume you have it mounted on a tray below the table? If so, that can make sense. But for most people if the keyboard is sitting on the table and tilted the way you describe that would cause more harm than good. Extremely uncomfortable.

Either that or you arguably have the seat and/or table height at the wrong height. If so, and if the mouse is sitting on that table, that would make things quite uncomfortable for using the mouse, unless you have it elevated.

Agreed. But, in that case, rather than tilting the keyboard towards them, the user would be better off with a really flat/level keyboard.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Proper ergonomics have the wrists raised above the table and a tilted keyboard.

However the table level must be below the elbows, so that the wrists are positioned over the keys but still no higher than the elbows. While some "ergonomic" illustrations show the elbows bent at less than 90º, they are in error-the elbows must be bent at greater than 90º to avoid compression of vessels inside the elbow and to avoid stretching the ulnar nerve.

I will here also point out that any so called "ergonomic" accessory that provides a "wrist rest" comes from someone who knows zero about ergonomics. Resting the wrists while using either a keyboard or mouse is very bad; it compresses the median nerve, which is the nerve that's damaged in carpal tunnel syndrome. In other words, these rests can cause the very problem the user buys them to prevent.

The OT is done with his rant, please resume the discussion.

[Wiskedjak]

This is the keyboard I use at home on a desk surface rather than keyboard tray. It's extremely comfortable.

[Eug]

I want one of those futuristic keyboard gloves.

Not one of those that has buttons on the gloves, but one that would sense finger movement as related to a standard keyboard... without the need of the keyboard. Then you could have the hands anywhere you wanted, even sideways by your legs or something for brief periods.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Agreed. But, in that case, rather than tilting the keyboard towards them, the user would be better off with a really flat/level keyboard.

Because of the mechanics of the tendons that work the fingers, the keys on the higher rows should be higher off the surface than those on lower rows. Keyboard keys are not like piano keys (despite what some researchers have posited in examining a variety of keyboarding-related issues), and so they depend on the finger tip pressing them, not the whole finger. This requires that the upper row keys be accessible with the fingers bent at higher (more obtuse) angles (specifically at the proximal IP joint-the knuckle in the middle of the finger), while lower row keys require lower (more acute) angles. Leverage and the normal range of motion for fingers dictate a slight elevation of the back of the keyboard for optimum use of all keys.

Gee, I thought that when I got home from work I wouldn't be working...

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

However the table level must be below the elbows, so that the wrists are positioned over the keys but still no higher than the elbows. While some "ergonomic" illustrations show the elbows bent at less than 90º, they are in error-the elbows must be bent at greater than 90º to avoid compression of vessels inside the elbow and to avoid stretching the ulnar nerve.

I will here also point out that any so called "ergonomic" accessory that provides a "wrist rest" comes from someone who knows zero about ergonomics. Resting the wrists while using either a keyboard or mouse is very bad; it compresses the median nerve, which is the nerve that's damaged in carpal tunnel syndrome. In other words, these rests can cause the very problem the user buys them to prevent.

The OT is done with his rant, please resume the discussion.

In addition, a lot of ergonomists are starting to say that split keyboards don't add that much, if anything, to reducing repetitive strain injuries ... the only way to really accomplish that is to reduce the repetition that is causing the repetitive strain (like taking a 5 minute break every 30 minutes). Split keyboards are really down to preference these days, and really, barely exist anymore. Microsoft Hardware was one of the biggest promoters of split keyboards, and they're slowly phasing out the design in favour of curved keyboards.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

In addition, a lot of ergonomists are starting to say that split keyboards don't add that much, if anything, to reducing repetitive strain injuries ... the only way to really accomplish that is to reduce the repetition that is causing the repetitive strain (like taking a 5 minute break every 30 minutes). Split keyboards are really down to preference these days, and really, barely exist anymore. Microsoft Hardware was one of the biggest promoters of split keyboards, and they're slowly phasing out the design in favour of curved keyboards.

One thing that split keyboards do is tempt people to type with their elbows stuck out at an angle, instead of kept at their sides. Having been formally taught to type (junior high) on an electric typewriter, split keyboards are difficult for me to adapt to-and I have yet to even think of buying one.

However, your point about breaks is both apt and saddening. It should not be necessary to tell someone "take a break." And it should not be needed to tell someone who drives a keyboard all day that he/she should just sit properly, stretch often (mini- and micro-breaks are very helpful) and they won't have any problem. But today, nobody seems to get formal training in keyboarding, let alone sitting properly (I was warned more than once in my typing course that if I did not sit properly my ankles would be taped to the legs of the chair-that lesson stuck), and it's far too common to see a user slouched in a (very expensive) chair, stretching his/her arms and wrist, craning the neck, and wondering why it hurts to do this...

OK, I'm going to move on to some other thread. My blood pressure is going up just discussing this. It's a professional gripe I have...

[Brien]

Hopefully, they can add the middle button in via an update. Only thing holding me back.

PS: Steampunk keyboards rock.
PPS: Quick reply seems to be broken for me.

[msuper69]

The Magic Mouse is everything the Hockey Puck mouse wasn't.

IMO, this is the best mouse I've ever used.

[iJeff]

3 finger click is now possible.

SecondBar Blog

[Cold Warrior]

Just picked up one at Best Buy and like it so far.

+ its low profile
+ full-surface scrolling

future features it should have:
- third-button click (I love this on my other mice to open new pages in a new tab w/o needing the keyboard)
- an option to swipe to move between browser tabs (not history)
- tap to click and two-finger right-click, like their trackpads

[tonton]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

Just picked up one at Best Buy and like it so far.

+ its low profile
+ full-surface scrolling

future features it should have:
- third-button click (I love this on my other mice to open new pages in a new tab w/o needing the keyboard)
- an option to swipe to move between browser tabs (not history)
- tap to click and two-finger right-click, like their trackpads

SecondBar & BetterTouchTool Blog

Better Touch Tool can do all this with ease. I am currently using v0.353 and I have it set up as follows:

* Three-finger click invokes Exposé
* Two-finger swipe right/left in Firefox switches tabs
* Two-finger swipe up/down in Firefox zooms in and out

Plus this tool has plenty more uses for the Magic Mouse as well as MacBook track pads.

It's still in Alpha development, but it's working great for me. A big thanks to the developer for making my Magic Mouse even more awesome.

Oh, and you can set the tracking speed to 3x what the Apple control panel allows.

[ghporter]

I just got my Magic Mouse today, and I'm enjoying it a lot. It's smooth in the hand, the kinds of things I do with a mouse are easy and natural with it, and if just feels good. So far I haven't done much fancy with it, but as I use it I'm sure I'll find something I am not pleased with-though at the moment I can't imagine what that would be.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by iJeff 

3 finger click is now possible.

SecondBar Blog

Looks interesting... but the documentation there is absolutely terrible. It makes me scared to install it.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Looks interesting... but the documentation there is absolutely terrible. It makes me scared to install it.

I bit the bullet and tried the software. I really like what it does for the Magic Mouse. Don't worry about installing it; it just runs, no installation necessary.

[Eug]

Is there an uninstall option?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Is there an uninstall option?

There isn't even an "install" option. It just runs and doesn't actually infiltrate the OS. If you don't like it, just delete it and it's gone.

[Simon]

It's really quite sad that Apple cannot deliver middle-click capability out of the box for their own mouse. Much more so considering both their previous mice had it.