[theiliad]

I have recently split up with my long term girlfriend. It was pretty bad, we were apart for 4 months over the summer and on the last day she scored with some other guy (which is completely out of character for someone like her). If there is one thing that gets me it's cheating. The situation really sucks now, we're in the same class and see each other everyday, having said that we are pretty amicable at this point, not good friends but we're not avoiding each other.
The only good thing that I have got from this is that I think I have learned alot about relationships, I puts these points together, if anyone has any comments or ones they would like to add they are more than welcome.


1. Never think it�s going to last forever�

2. Don�t get complacent, always try new things
and don�t �settle in� too much�

3. Don�t trust anyone too much.
You can�t expect too much of people.

4. Women need attention, constant attention.

5. Read the signs, they�re there if you look for them.

6. Nothing is what it�s �supposed� to be. What you do
in the time you have is what decides the future, nothing else.

7. Life must go forward. It can�t go in circles.

8. Learn from both yours and others mistakes.

9. Everyone has the power to forgive, no-one has the
power to forget.

10. You can�t impose your morals on other people. It�s what they
decide on their own and how they act in a difficult situation
that shows the kind of person that they are.

11.Wisdom only comes to us one way - the hard way.

theilaid
21-10-02

[daimoni]

.

Good tips. You seem to have handled it well. I too, don't understand cheating. Well, I do, but I don't understand why people think they deserve a second chance? Did they not know it wasn't ok the first time?

If someone's heart suddenly belongs to another, then they should do the honourable thing and break up first.

[Mulattabianca]

i estimate that of the guys i see here (in italy) 90 % cheat, and 10 % are either too old, ugly and desperate to do that.. or they lie.

and, as most people tend be quite hetero, i'll use the same percentages for women.
well that sounds bad. should i say 60 - 70 % ?

i used to get mad about cheating. but an ex kept having a parallel relation for over five years - as it seems that finished when he found one who is 15 years younger than him. and most of the men 'trying' are simply married, engaged etc and believe the girls don't notice them putting the wedding ring on the pocket.

my view seems to have changed in the years. now i won't maybe scandalize anymore. i'd just loose my respect - that more beacause of lieing than because of cheating itself - and once i don't have a respect for somebody, that person is dead for me.

treat her like air, like you had never met.. i believe that will hurt her.

take care,

[thunderous_funker]

Not to make you second guess your decisions, you know the situation better than anyone else can, but your comments made me curious about some things.

I'll admit to being very open to the ideas of polyamorous relationships and not having a jealous streak at all, but I'm always startled when people break up because of an indiscretion. Your own list of lessons seems to indicate that you acknowledge that holding on too tight is a mistake and eliminating heartache is unavoidable. Doesn't that mean an indiscretion is arguably the worst reason to break things off?

Like I said, I don't know the circumstances. I'm not trying to tell you that you've done unwisely. I'm just curious if you realize that part of accepting the lessons you've stated is learning to work through something even as potentially harmful as cheating.

Side note, I personally feel it's the lying part of an indiscretion that is hard to overcome rather than the sex part. There is nothing natural about monogamy and dealing with the inevitable trials of physical desires to cheat is going to be basic to any long term relationship. I should note that I've never ever cheated on a lover and I think it's a serious breach of trust. But it doesn't mean I don't think it's perfectly normal to want other people and couples need to find a way to cope with it and traditional rules and selfish pride be damned.

[RMXO]

keep yourself busy. im not so sure about ignoring her or not. that is up too you.

think of it this way. atleast u know now & not when you are married. i always say, "its better to know now then down the road."

hang in there. things will get better. some relationships are just a stepping stone to the next one.

[::maroma::]

Sorry to hear it man. I feel for you. I have been burned twice by cheating girlfriends. It hurts no matter how bad (or good) the relationship was when it happened. I have made a promise to myself to never give second chances for cheating. It never works. I also made a promise to myself to be more open in my relationships. Communication is THE key to a working relationship. If the lines of communication aren't crystal clear, sh!t happens. But like others have said, it seems like you have a handle on the situation. Keep your distance from her. Move on, and let her move on. Brighter days are ahead for sure.

[Hawkeye_a]

Just remember....
The first time she cheats on you, it's her fault. The second time she cheats on you, it's your fault. Dont take her back, as a matter of fact, you dont have to keep up appearances with her at all. if your sick/angry/pissed off with her, there's no reason for you to 'act civilized' with her....say goodbye(and let her know it's for keeps)....turn around, and walk away with your head held high.

Youve come to some good realizations after this ordeal. What dosent kill you, only makes you stronger. And anyway.... you still got your pride and dignity and trust me, that counts for something.

Cheers. (for real)

[Too Much Coffee Woman]

ok, whatever bad things you say about girls...applies to guys too.

so there. and theilad...get over it and hook up with someone and live well. the best revenge...

[Millennium]

I feel your pain, theiliad. I've been there, once. My situation was different in some ways, but I know what it's like to be cheated on.

I will say, however, that you might not want to be quite so quick to dump her flat. If you have any reason to suspect she'd do it again, then certainly leave, for your own sake; nothing is more ego-shredding than being with a partner you know to be cheating. It's almost like a kind of abuse, except the damage is self-inflicted.

But if you think you can extract a credible promise from her to never do it again as long as you're together, you might want to consider forgiving her. But only do it if you're certain she'll never do it again. Speak with her about this. If you think she might do it again, though, you should probably leave. Even if she never does, you'll always worry about it.

I never really got the concept of polyamory, to be honest. My views on the morality (or, more to the point, the lack thereof) of it aside, how the heck do you keep the emotional balance needed to sustain such a relationship? Most people have enough trouble keeping their own internal emotional balance. Throw even one other person into the mix -a monogamous relationship- and it becomes all but impossible; add even more and the statistics just don't add up. Each relationship undermines the others, and the house of cards comes tumbling down. Maybe not in a day, maybe not in a year, maybe not even in five years, but it always collapses in the end. It's kind of like communism: great in theory, but it forgets to take the reality of basic human nature into account, and that oversight is a death sentence.

[Codename]

It's only sex. Who cares who cheats on whom? Let free love rule by letting people breaking sociological bonds to attain freedom.

Obviously, you weren't good enough for her so she found someone else. It's like capitalism; if you find someone's service inadequate, switch or compliment with a second provider.

[thunderous_funker]

It's got nothing to do with sex. That's the point.

All that high minded talk about "ignoring human nature" and at the same time talking about monogamy is it's own kind of irony.

If you don't think you could share your partner or be shared without getting jealous then you obviously shouldn't be polyamorous. I'm not advocating it as better or anything. I'm just saying some people work that way and some people don't. It's all good. I'm married and don't plan on trying to polyamorous. If we both get curious in 20 years I guess we'll talk about it. Or 5 years. Whatever.

Couples decide for themselves what the rules are and what the boudaries are. Traditional roles and puritan values have nothing to do with it. If a partner violates that trust, that's the issue to be dealt with. Nothing works without trust and communication as others have said.

[G4ME]

spoken by a true hippy

if i may I quote TOOL

"Lie Cheat and Steal"

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Codename:
It's only sex. Who cares who cheats on whom?

Cheating isn't only about sex, though certainly that's a facet of it. It's the lies, the betrayal; that's what hurts, far more than the sexual aspect of it. The sex could almost be an afterthought, compared to the pain caused by the deception. Why do you think most people consider cyber-affairs to be cheating, even though most people involved in those never actually have sex outside their respective relationships?

Let free love rule by letting people breaking sociological bonds to attain freedom.

You've mistaken sex for love, as, sadly, have most of the current couple of generations. That's a dangerous thing to be doing. It's something you might want to think about some more.

Obviously, you weren't good enough for her so she found someone else. It's like capitalism; if you find someone's service inadequate, switch or compliment with a second provider.

While I won't deny the possibility that what you say is true, Codename, there's a little thing called tact. I suggest you learn to use it. Not knowing it could very well get you into trouble someday.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by thunderous_funker:
All that high minded talk about "ignoring human nature" and at the same time talking about monogamy is it's own kind of irony.

Is it, now? While the urge to cheat may be a natural one for some -even many- the psychological makeup necessary to maintain a stable polyamorous relationship certainly don't come naturally to most. That's the problem with polyamory; it's not the sex, it's the emotions. Keeping that kind of balance, as I mentioned, is already extremely difficult with only two people. Doing it with more becomes all but impossible, because everyone in the group has to be capable of it, or it won't work. Getting that many together and then sparking the necessary emotions in all of them is a well-nigh impossible task. It's estimated that some thirty billion people have lived, over the course of humanity's history. Throw geographic and temporal limitations (they must all be in roughly the same place and live at roughly the same time, after all) into the mix, and you start seeing the problem of odds.

Nothing works without trust and communication as others have said.

Indeed, trust and communication are the most important things in any relationship. At its heart, cheating is a breach of that trust and an intentional muddling of communication. That is -and should be, to be honest- enough to break almost any relationship.

[DaKiwi2788]

Someone here said that some reltionships are just stepping stones for others. This is so true. Obviously, if things went so wrong that she felt she had to betray you then you don't want to be in that relationship anyways.

Everyone has to have some great relationships go bad...after that you get "the" realtionship. It'll all be okay. I'm a firm believer that all the crappy relationships help you to appreciate the great ones that much more.

Hang in there!

[amsalpemkcus]

Originally posted by theiliad:
having said that we are pretty amicable at this point

I think that should be "amiable" instead of amicable, no?

[Cipher13]

Codename, you're as dumb as Mike.

iliad... I know what kind of relationship you had with her (from IM), and I know losing that is difficult - largely because it becomes routine, 'normal'. People don't like things changing.

I can't say much to make you feel better - the damage has been done, and the pain has been dealt. Now all you can really do is try to move on in the least self-destructive way possible.

You say she's in your classes? Good - that gives you a nice upper hand. Ignore her, entirely. Do not speak to her. Don't look at her. Don't wonder to yourself "who's she got the hots for in this class now?". Pretend she doesn't exist, as mullatabianca said.

My last ex tried to cheat on me with a close friend of mine. He came and told me what she'd said straight away.

That was also the last time I talked to her (my ex) - 9 months ago.

It becomes magnitudes easier if you don't have any contact with them. I do know how hard it is - but you'll get through it.

Drop me a line on AIM when you can.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by amsalpemkcus:
I think that should be "amiable" instead of amicable, no?

Nope; amicable fits.

In general, amiable is used to describe people, and has very positive connotations. Amicable is used to describe situations, and the connotations are neutral rather than positive or negative. As in, they're on polite terms, but not necessarily friendly. In fact, Iliad's description of "not good friends but we're not avoiding each other" is a very good definition for the term.

[amsalpemkcus]

Originally posted by Millennium:

Nope; amicable fits.

In general, amiable is used to describe people, and has very positive connotations. Amicable is used to describe situations, and the connotations are neutral rather than positive or negative. As in, they're on polite terms, but not necessarily friendly. In fact, Iliad's description of "not good friends but we're not avoiding each other" is a very good definition for the term.

He said "we are amicable" though. If he had said "the situation is amicable" then I would have felt amiable towards him.

[zigzag]

Sounds like you're dealing with it in a constructive way, iliad. However, I would caution against trying too hard to analyze what went wrong or how to do better next time - unless you're an outright abusive person, such things are largely out of our control. The reason there are so many books on relationships is not because we've figured them out so well, but because we haven't, and probably never will. You might've been the most communicative person in the world, and might have noticed the signs, and might have tried "new" things, and she still might have left you for any number of reasons. Trying to make sense of women's feelings is like trying to herd cats - it can't be done.

On the issue of polyamory, I agree with thunderous that everyone has different tolerance levels, but I agree with millenium that it's a rare person who can pursue it without damaging side effects. It's a cruel folly of nature that we seem drawn to it but aren't generally built to handle it emotionally.

[DigitalEl]

5. Read the signs, they�re there if you look for them.

That's why hindsight is 20/20. It's astute of you to realize this in retrospect. In your next relationship, your eyes will be open a little wider. Just don't let one bad experience affect future relationships. Don't make your next girlfriend "pay" for the sins of your last one.

Hang in there!

[Sven G]

About polyamory vs. "traditional" relationships...

I think the whole point is that you shouldn't try to realize yourself through another person. "Being beloved" is, from my experience, something that constrains you way too much: it's better to cultivate "friendly" relationships, where there may also be room for different forms of sex, but where the pleasure of being together is an extension of your basic human desire to share with others.

Personally, every time I've been (too) beloved in a woman, it has been a failure (mostly because she was already "engaged", and despite probably wanting to have another relationship, she just couldn't "allow" herself to - go figure!). OTOH, when I've tried to be an intimate "friend" (even with sex), that has mostly worked (also resulting in stable, lasting friendships), as both parties have retained their individual indipendence and there haven't been any of the psychological deprivations that come from "totally relying on the other".

As for cheating, it's the most normal thing on Earth, and completely unavoidable, IMHO (such as software and music "piracy"): reasonably free human beings are by their "nature" (*if* it exists!) and - above all - culture very curious to experiment new friendships, and also sexual relations. Especially for married couples (I'm not, BTW) a "consensual cheating" context could be very healthy for keeping a good relationship between them: not surprisingly, there are many married couples engaging in partner exchange, etc. - at least if one can trust the sexual announcements websites and magazines.

In a few words, polyamory, IMHO, is the future: many of us are just not ready for it, because of many factors - first of all, the artificious constraints that today's "society" (sic!) imposes on most of us (too much one-sided, often alienated "work", first of all), especially regarding human relationships...

P.S.: In a libertarian federalist society, of course, polyamory would be the norm, not the exception!

... And people would accept each other much more easily than today, as a "hot" conflictuality and exchange (of ideas, etc.) would be quite exciting - almost the contrary of today's "political correctness". *Constructive* difference is one of the best friends of equality and solidarity!

[philzilla]

Originally posted by theiliad:
4. Women need attention, constant attention.

that's because they're selfish. that point never comes back the other way.

and, yes, i'm very bitter. the last 2 girls i let into my heart, completely destroyed it. about 12 years, gone. now i just feel empty. a close friend is getting married right now. i should be there, but the last thing i need right now, is happy couples everywhere i look, asking me why i'm still single? also, i'm broke. oh, and i'll be expected to be court jester. so, this zilla is choosing to stay away from all that.

ha. with classic timing, the song i have on, said:
"my heartache, is my mistake"

grr...

[OreoCookie]

Agreed to anything but the point �Don't trust too much.' You have to let go each time, that's what relationships are for. Otherwise you won't get far.

Trust is the most important point in a relationship.

[Cipher13]

If there was one thing I'd learned about relationships that I could pass on to somebody else... it'd be this.

Before a relationship you're indifferent; during it you're probably happy; after it you're hurt; then you get over it. It's a cycle. Given my desire to achieve machine-like efficiency and control over myself, I've pretty much convinced myself that it doesn't matter what happens. Last time I got broken up with, I was fine the next day. Why? Cause there's no point in being hurt. You'll get over it eventually - so why not right away? And now? I'm happy, once again. I've got a great girl, who I'd love to hold onto for a very long time.

Iliad... you know my story (Angela), and you know about who I'm with now. Take it from me, use me as an example - it isn't the end of the world.

Convince yourself of that, and you'll be fine.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Sven G:
As for cheating, it's the most normal thing on Earth, and completely unavoidable, IMHO (such as software and music "piracy"): reasonably free human beings are by their "nature" (*if* it exists!) and - above all - culture very curious to experiment new friendships, and also sexual relations. Especially for married couples (I'm not, BTW) a "consensual cheating" context could be very healthy for keeping a good relationship between them: not surprisingly, there are many married couples engaging in partner exchange, etc. - at least if one can trust the sexual announcements websites and magazines.

In a few words, polyamory, IMHO, is the future: many of us are just not ready for it, because of many factors - first of all, the artificious constraints that today's "society" (sic!) imposes on most of us (too much one-sided, often alienated "work", first of all), especially regarding human relationships...

P.S.: In a libertarian federalist society, of course, polyamory would be the norm, not the exception!

Respectfully, dozens (more likely thousands, if you count every cult and commune in history) of utopian societies have tried to implement this theory and failed miserably. I'm not aware of a single one that has succeeded long-term. On this I have to agree with Millennium: although the urge for variety seems to be hard-wired into us, monogamy and jealousy and possessiveness are even stronger urges and can't generally be overcome by intellectual or political doctrine. You can't fool Mother Nature, IMO.

The sexual announcements in magazines that you refer to are mostly guys who have talked their girlfriends into having a threesome. This isn't to say that there aren't adventurous women in the world, but percentage-wise it's extremely small.

[gumby5647]

once again, i repeat...

"women are evil and relationships are over rated..."


that is all.

[Millennium]

Originally posted by Sven G:
P.S.: In a libertarian federalist society, of course, polyamory would be the norm, not the exception!

Would it? Certainly people would sleep around a lot more. But actual polyamory? That's pretty rare. Like I said; the psychological makeup necessary to maintain a stable polyamorous relationship isn't something which generally comes naturally to people, and to make such a relationship work everyone has to be capable of it. In many cultures where polyamory is the norm, you often see most children have to go through a long period of "conditioning", getting rid of the natural instincts which accompany monogamy.

The urge to cheat is, as I said, a natural thing. Not just in humans, though. If you look at animals which naturally mate for life, you'll find cheating, and even divorce, in all of them. It stands to reason that just because the urge to cheat exists, that doesn't necessarily mean humans aren't naturally monogamous, given that animals known to be naturally monogamous (or even naturally serially-monogamous) show the same tendencies.

Just some food for thought.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by Millennium:

Cheating isn't only about sex, though certainly that's a facet of it. It's the lies, the betrayal; that's what hurts, far more than the sexual aspect of it. The sex could almost be an afterthought, compared to the pain caused by the deception.

i could not have said it any better. there is absolutely no f�cking reason to cheat on somebody.

if there is something wrong in a relationship, break it up first, then you can do whatever you want, and it's not cheating.

in this day and age, where relationships aren't "mandatory" cultural behavior any longer, there is simply no excuse any more. it usually just boils down to a weakness in chracter on the part of the person who is cheating.

i think it is pretty much safe to say that "loose" intimate relationships is the way to go these days (unless you are REALLY hell bent on raising kids together).

theiliad, enjoy your new found freedom!!! as much as you can! (i know this sounds like complete crap now given the emotional state you are probably in at the moment). but it is true, what they say: you'll get over it! (you posted some really excellent points )

...and try never to confuse sex, love, and trust again.

if the girl that cheated on you had had any self respect and integrity, she would have broken up with you, BEFORE she "scored" with another guy. DON'T BLAME YOURSELF!

little tip from me: score with some chick and make sure your ex finds out by seeing you two together (kissing) something tells me she will be really friendly to you all of a sudden (if you don't care about what she does or feel any longer, at least you will have put on a good show )

[7Macfreak]

Originally posted by theiliad:

1. Never think it�s going to last forever�

2. Don�t get complacent, always try new things
and don�t �settle in� too much�

3. Don�t trust anyone too much.
You can�t expect too much of people.

4. Women need attention, constant attention.

5. Read the signs, they�re there if you look for them.

6. Nothing is what it�s �supposed� to be. What you do
in the time you have is what decides the future, nothing else.

7. Life must go forward. It can�t go in circles.

8. Learn from both yours and others mistakes.

9. Everyone has the power to forgive, no-one has the
power to forget.

10. You can�t impose your morals on other people. It�s what they
decide on their own and how they act in a difficult situation
that shows the kind of person that they are.

11.Wisdom only comes to us one way - the hard way.

theilaid
21-10-02

in addition to that
12. being passionate sucks, never be passionate unless its the thing being delt with is not alive.

13. women want to be loved, but they dont want to give it back equally. (probably cause there's this premisconception that "guys dont have feelings".. yeah we're robots,... i wish!)

14. no matter what they say, they never feel the same way about you as you feel about them.

15. there is no such thing as trust. situations keep changing, and so will the "degree of trust".

feels like having your heart put through a shredder eh? i just found out similar **** a couple of days ago. i'm trying to be 'strong' and not let it get to me, but it just does... cause she totally lied about it, and i wonder why. i had my doubts, and she kept telling me there's nothing to be insecure about, and then i found out.
i think i'll be fine after i cry my ass of once. which hasnt happened yet.
an experience like that, just scares the hell out of me when it comes to women now esp. cause it was my first 'serious' relationship.
oh well, not the end of the world..

[theiliad]

Thanks for all the responses. I just thought that I�d clarify a few things.

When she got back she said, � my feelings have changed� and she wasn�t sure anymore. I had no problem with this. Peoples feelings genuinely do change, I know, it has happened to me. I was with a girl when (we�ll call her Andrea) made it clear she was into me. I told her that I wanted to be with her to but I couldn�t do anything until I broke it off first and when I did break it off I told my old girlfriend the reason ( I hate lying in situations like these, it just seems intrinsically wrong).
Anyway as I began to think about this I realised that people�s feelings don�t change without a catalyst, there is always something to trigger it, after all why would one get out of something good for no reason?
I confronted her about and she owned up. Here�s the thing, she has almost exactly the same moral stand point as me (or so I thought) that�s part of the reason I was so shocked. The girls she was staying with all cheated for the whole summer and she was always against it.
So, predictably when she told me I quickly mounted my moral high horse and said that I couldn�t forgive her. I do have to say that she was really upset, more so than I have every seen her, she was clearly ashamed of what she had done but then again that doesn�t really change anything.
It has always been my view that once someone cheats that�s it, cut and dry and that they can�t be forgiven. But unfortunately it�s just not that easy, I Love her very deeply and I knew that I had to try, even though it was totally opposite to the way I thought I would react in that situation. We talked again and I said that if she wanted to I was willing to try and move beyond this because I thought that our relationship was worth saving. She agreed( in good-old 20/20 hindsight she only did this out of guilt)
Anyway things went on for awhile like that. You could tell it wasn�t going to work out, I tried my absolute best and I did forgive her but I rips you apart to look at someone you love and know that basically they stood with someone else and said �**** you�. I knew at this stage that she really wasn�t looking to get things back together so I asked her if she was serious or not. That�s where it ended ( 6th of October )
For about a week after that things seemed to be cruising, we were acting as if nothing had happened.
It was important for me to know that I had done absolutely everything in my power to save the relationship and to come out with dignity.
I realised soon that the way I was acting with her, as if nothing had happened was weak and neglecting the history that we had together, so I started to ignore her, it worked well too, soon she was texting me, coming over to talk to me etc. I even thought that there might be a chance that we could get back together, this faded after awhile and it began to sink in that this is it, it�s done.
I was in pretty back shape for a few days because of this. There were so many questions that I wanted answers too and reasons to be explained.
I went to see her one more time, not to get back together, I knew that was a none starter but to get a sense of finality that I was lacking so that I could begin to put the relationship behind me. I told that we weren�t enemies but that we couldn�t be real friends either. She said she hoped we could be in the future.
I most say that this made a huge difference, now I was certain that things were over and that the only thing left to do was move on, it was a sort of Zen like calmness and it put my mind at ease. That was the 20th, the day after I began listing what I had learned because to me throwing away the lessons form a relationship like this would truly be a huge waste.
That brings us up to the present. We talk but not a huge amount I�m trying to put her out of mind.


<quote>Ignore her, entirely</quote>

That would be that usual option but we have a tiny class ( 20) and everybody hangs around together so it wouldn�t really work, besides I think it�s better to leave the past where it belongs, in the past. Plus a group of us are going to work in Boston next year so I�d have to keep it up for a long long time, also in a way to be bitter at someone like that is to give them control of your emotions and I don�t want to do that.


<quote>Everyone has to have some great relationships go bad...after that you get "the" relationship. </quote>

I hope you�re right. It was a great relationship, we never (ever) fought and loved each other very deeply. Of course it doesn�t help that she is arguably one of the best looking girls I know (!)


<quote>Cheating isn't only about sex, though certainly that's a facet of it. It's the lies, the betrayal; that's what hurts</quote>

True, very very true.
( BTW just for the record she didn�t have sex with him)

<quote>Obviously, you weren't good enough for her so she found someone else. It's like capitalism; if you find someone's service inadequate, switch or compliment with a second provider.
</quote>

Quite possible. I doubt it though. In a way our relationship had become as Cipher put it �normal� and maybe slightly repetitive and I believe that�s where the bulk of the reason lies.

<quote>Agreed to anything but the point �Don't trust too much.' You have to let go each time, that's what relationships are for. Otherwise you won't get far. </quote>

What I meant is that I trusted her enough to go away for 4 months and never in my wildest dreams expected anything to happen. I do now honestly believe that that is too much

<quote>Given my desire to achieve machine-like efficiency and control over myself</quote>

So you really are an IBM mainframe left over from the cold war.


<quote>Don't make your next girlfriend "pay" for the sins of your last one. </quote>


A very good point and one that I hadn�t thought of. Thank you

<quote>Trying to make sense of women's feelings is like trying to herd cats - it can't be done. </quote>

True. LOL

<quote>if the girl that cheated on you had had any self respect and integrity, she would have broken up with you, BEFORE she "scored" with another guy. DON'T BLAME YOURSELF! </quote>

That�s what�s so strange, she is in every way a �classy� chick. I would admit that I probably had her up on a pedestal but it pisses me off to think that she would do that ****.
For awhile is was blaming myself, trying to rationalise her actions in the context of things that had gone on between us. I�ve got pass this now though so don�t worry.

<quote>
score with some chick and make sure your ex finds out by seeing you two together (kissing) something tells me she will be really friendly to you all of a sudden</quote>

Usually I would say that is a bad way to deal with the situation. But the fact that I�m in this situation at all is enough to show that it probably would work.
I most likely won�t though, no matter how much it would hurt her to see me with another girl, it would crush me to see her with another guy, so I don�t want to start a tit-for-tat game.

OK This is by far my longest post ever! Do I get another star?
By the way any spelling mistakes is down to the simple fact that I�m a bad speller.

[PorscheBunny]

Originally posted by gumby5647:
once again, i repeat...

"women are evil and relationships are over rated..."


that is all.

Sounds like one of my co-workers, except she says that men are scum and relationships are overrated.

Phil, two women out of three billion is an awfully small sample. Men are just as selfish as women. Eg, Q: How does a real man tell if his woman has an orgasm? A: He doesn't care. Har-har.

Selfishness is not necessarily bad. There are times when you need attention and you just cannot give any back in return, but this should be balanced with equal time in which you're giving the attention. The key is to find someone with a balance similar to your own.

Originally posted by 7Macfreak:
13. women want to be loved, but they dont want to give it back equally. (probably cause there's this premisconception that "guys dont have feelings".. yeah we're robots,... i wish!)

Sounds like your experience has been with emotionally-immature women. If you grow up around guys that say things like "Love me? Hell, I don't care, just fuck me!", it's easy to get that misconception. I didn't know any better than that until I was 19, and some women never learn better. But once again, women don't have a monopoly on this.

There are only two things you can do, give up or try again. Hopefully, you'll try again. Take care.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by theiliad:
When she got back she said, � my feelings have changed� and she wasn�t sure anymore. I had no problem with this. Peoples feelings genuinely do change, I know, it has happened to me. I was with a girl when (we�ll call her Andrea) made it clear she was into me. I told her that I wanted to be with her to but I couldn�t do anything until I broke it off first and when I did break it off I told my old girlfriend the reason ( I hate lying in situations like these, it just seems intrinsically wrong) . . . Anyway as I began to think about this I realised that people�s feelings don�t change without a catalyst, there is always something to trigger it, after all why would one get out of something good for no reason? . . . It was a great relationship, we never (ever) fought and loved each other very deeply . . . In a way our relationship had become as Cipher put it �normal� and maybe slightly repetitive and I believe that�s where the bulk of the reason lies.

I picked these things out of your post because I think they reveal something important - the fact that you never fought may seem to you (and to most men) to indicate a great relationship, but for many women the opposite is true - it's an indication of a lack of emotional engagement. You seem to recognize this yourself when you talk about things getting overly routine.

Unfortunately, there's probably nothing you could have done about it. All relationships get routine after a while. If she isn't happy with you as you are, it's not your fault, it's probably just not meant to be at this point in your lives. A woman either feels right in a relationship or she doesn't, and no amount of artificially trying to spice things up will change that, IMO.

That's why it doesn't really matter if she had sex with the other guy or not. For women, sex is secondary. It would've hurt your feelings more, but the real reason she "cheated" (using your term) is because her feelings changed, for reasons that were probably mostly out of your control.

Relationships are messy - trying to make rules about them or "work" on them is mostly futile, IMO. We hear that absence makes the heart grow fonder, when half the time it's just the opposite. We hear that we need to achieve greater intimacy, then find out that we need to achieve more space/independence. For every word of wisdom, there's a counter-example. I wouldn't try too hard to make sense of it. Women seem to understand this better than men.

As for the integrity question, a lot of people aren't really aware of their feelings until they experience something new. A catalyst, as you put it. And they're reluctant to come clean precisely because they don't want to hurt your feelings. So I wouldn't be too hard on her. You have a right to feel bad about it, though.

Anyway, I really admire the way that you're dealing with it. I wish I had been as smart when I was younger.

[Zimphire]

As I see, the biggest problem in relationships is people wanting to get and not give. They want things to be THEIR way, without comprimise.

Do this and this and this for me, and if you don't you don't care about me, but don't you DARE expect me to change. Both men and women are guilty of this. I have dated many a gal that wanted me to change all my faults for her, but when I brought up something she was doing that bothered me, I was told to live with it.

it's a give and take thing. If you aren't willing to give, don't expect your partner to.

That means even doing things you don't normally like to, to make your partner happy.

Too many selfish people out there that want it there way or else.

[Spliffdaddy]

Originally posted by philzilla:
that's because they're selfish. that point never comes back the other way.

and, yes, i'm very bitter. the last 2 girls i let into my heart, completely destroyed it. about 12 years, gone. now i just feel empty. a close friend is getting married right now. i should be there, but the last thing i need right now, is happy couples everywhere i look, asking me why i'm still single? also, i'm broke. oh, and i'll be expected to be court jester. so, this zilla is choosing to stay away from all that.

ha. with classic timing, the song i have on, said:
"my heartache, is my mistake"

grr...

whoa.

did you guys feel the Earth stop spinning just now?

I actually agreed with something philzilla posted.

[Cipher13]

The Ataris - The Last Song I Will Ever Write About a Girl

Broken heart again today...
The flowers that I gave to you have withered all away.
Just when I opened up my heart
The one you used to love came and ripped it right apart.

Why do I never seem to learn?
That love is wrong and girls are ****ing evil!
I guess I'll never figure out
What womankind is all about.

I heard your voice again today
I'm scarred by all the lies that were once promises you'd made.
I lie in bed awake at night
And wonder what went wrong or even more just what went right.

Why do I never seem to learn?
That love is wrong and girls are ****ing evil!
I guess I'll never figure out
What womankind is all about.

[7Macfreak]

Originally posted by PorscheBunny:


Sounds like your experience has been with emotionally-immature women. If you grow up around guys that say things like "Love me? Hell, I don't care, just fuck me!", it's easy to get that misconception. I didn't know any better than that until I was 19, and some women never learn better. But once again, women don't have a monopoly on this.

There are only two things you can do, give up or try again. Hopefully, you'll try again. Take care.

now if a 35+ yr old woman is not gonna be emotionally mature, then i dont know who is. i thought older women would be more experienced and therefore more mature.. but i guess i was wrong. i just dont understand why she lied all along. now it all just seems like a game she played. *sigh*
she used to tell me often, that most women give her a bad name. i just laugh at that and at myself now. they're all the ****en same, impulsive and confused all the damn time.

[PorscheBunny]

Originally posted by 7Macfreak:
now if a 35+ yr old woman is not gonna be emotionally mature, then i dont know who is. i thought older women would be more experienced and therefore more mature.. but i guess i was wrong. i just dont understand why she lied all along. now it all just seems like a game she played. *sigh*
she used to tell me often, that most women give her a bad name. i just laugh at that and at myself now. they're all the ****en same, impulsive and confused all the damn time.

Like I said, some never learn.

But women are not all the same, just like not all men only want a someone to get them beer and give them head.

I wish I could give you an easy way to find out who is emotionally mature and who is still emotionally 14, but there isn't any.

[malvolio]

Originally posted by PorscheBunny:
I wish I could give you an easy way to find out who is emotionally mature and who is still emotionally 14, but there isn't any.

With experience, you can learn to pick up on signals that will give you a pretty good indication (usually).
Or you could have her take a Cosmo quiz on the subject. I'm sure they must have done one.

[7Macfreak]

Originally posted by PorscheBunny:


I wish I could give you an easy way to find out who is emotionally mature and who is still emotionally 14, but there isn't any.

it doesnt matter, cant undo anything anyway, i just wish i was a cold cucumber or something.. THAT would help.

[mrmister]

It does get better.

i feel obliged to say that, after reading how relentlessly negative some of the posters have been. Brrrrr.

I'm married, I'm thankful and I'm very happy--so I know it can happen.

Best of luck to everybody.

[PorscheBunny]

Originally posted by malvolio:
With experience, you can learn to pick up on signals that will give you a pretty good indication (usually).
Or you could have her take a Cosmo quiz on the subject. I'm sure they must have done one.

IMHO if she takes Cosmo quizzes on things, that's one indicator that something amiss with that Miss, but I could be wrong.

[Sven G]

Originally posted by Millennium:
Certainly people would sleep around a lot more. But actual polyamory? That's pretty rare. Like I said; the psychological makeup necessary to maintain a stable polyamorous relationship isn't something which generally comes naturally to people, and to make such a relationship work everyone has to be capable of it. In many cultures where polyamory is the norm, you often see most children have to go through a long period of "conditioning", getting rid of the natural instincts which accompany monogamy.

What do you mean by "polyamory", then...? Simply intended as non-monogamy is rather reductive: it may indeed be a much more "spiritual" and humanly fulfilling experience than a simple lifestyle choice.

I see it mainly in a (post-)"modern" way (as always): see for example this FAQ. Personally, I've never felt any "natural" urge for monogamy; I've been very beloved in some women, but always in a rather tolerant, non-possessive way (probably this has also to do with the fact that I grew up in Denmark during the '70s: there was certainly a more free and tolerant attitude in the Scandinavian countries).

Anyway, I think that a modern form of "polyamory" simply could mean to value friendship, sympathy and empathy (more than "seeing the other as the ultimate person of one's life"). If you have such an attitude, there's really no need to "fix" yourself on one person in particular, as there's space for various kinds and degrees of friendship and love with all the human relations that you value most.

Probably, it's just a matter of evolving beyond egoism and egocentrism, and see yourself as an unique individual in relation to many other unique individuals (and society as a whole, of course).

Does this mean that you "must" love all persons equally, in a "mathematical" way (for example, if there are 4 persons, 25% each)? No, of course, as we are talking of complex and "dynamic" relationships: some sort of "multiplexing" of the mind.

Of course, a creative polyamory can only exist in a free society - so, today, it's of course difficult, and mostly restricted to the "private" sphere. But it's certainly a beautiful possibility within a context of ethical evolution (from "nature" to culture, also)...

(For example, I recently met a lovely woman: an unique person, very intelligent and autonomous, with which I feel a deep sympathy. Am I going to "court" her? No. Am I going to try to be a good friend of her? If possible, yes. Then we'll see what can and cannot happen - without forcing anything.)

[Sven G]

Originally posted by zigzag:
Respectfully, dozens (more likely thousands, if you count every cult and commune in history) of utopian societies have tried to implement this theory and failed miserably. I'm not aware of a single one that has succeeded long-term. On this I have to agree with Millennium: although the urge for variety seems to be hard-wired into us, monogamy and jealousy and possessiveness are even stronger urges and can't generally be overcome by intellectual or political doctrine. You can't fool Mother Nature, IMO.

Again, it's also a "philosophical" matter: does "human nature" exist? Is it permeated by negative values such as those above (jealousy, possessiveness, etc.)? I don't take these things for granted.

For example, it's much more important, IMO, in which milieu one has grown up, what "positive models" one has had, etc.: in a few words, what cultural stimula one has been "forged" by.

"Utopian" societies have mostly been a thing of the past, in different contexts. Have they failed? I don't know. Of course, for example the '60s "free love" movements haven't endured - but they have certainly irreversibly (for the positive, IMO) changed the customs of Western society towards more freedom and tolerance. What once was public (and perhaps too "ideologicized"), today has mostly reverted to the "private" sphere - but this doesn't mean that the "utopian" quest for more free and fulfilling human relations has ended! There will certainly be more advancements on this front in the future: change comes gradually (it's the classic, "revolutionary" concept of change - typical of the "modern era" - which tends to concentrate achievements in short time periods, thus with unavoidable periods of reactive - and reactionary! - "backwards flow": that's also why I favor a more "distributed" - post-modern - and decentralized concept of individual and social change)...

[maxelson]

Originally posted by Codename:
It's only sex. Who cares who cheats on whom? Let free love rule by letting people breaking sociological bonds to attain freedom.

Obviously, you weren't good enough for her so she found someone else. It's like capitalism; if you find someone's service inadequate, switch or compliment with a second provider.

Whoa. Ugly, ugly, ugly.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Sven G:


Again, it's also a "philosophical" matter: does "human nature" exist? Is it permeated by negative values such as those above (jealousy, possessiveness, etc.)? I don't take these things for granted.

For example, it's much more important, IMO, in which milieu one has grown up, what "positive models" one has had, etc.: in a few words, what cultural stimula one has been "forged" by.

"Utopian" societies have mostly been a thing of the past, in different contexts. Have they failed? I don't know. Of course, for example the '60s "free love" movements haven't endured - but they have certainly irreversibly (for the positive, IMO) changed the customs of Western society towards more freedom and tolerance. What once was public (and perhaps too "ideologicized"), today has mostly reverted to the "private" sphere - but this doesn't mean that the "utopian" quest for more free and fulfilling human relations has ended! There will certainly be more advancements on this front in the future: change comes gradually (it's the classic, "revolutionary" concept of change - typical of the "modern era" - which tends to concentrate achievements in short time periods, thus with unavoidable periods of reactive - and reactionary! - "backwards flow": that's also why I favor a more "distributed" - post-modern - and decentralized concept of individual and social change)...

While I agree that there is variation, and that enculturation plays an important part, I nonetheless think that certain traits - monogamy (i.e. "pairing"), and attendant urges such as jealousy and possessiveness - are innate to a large degree. They're present throughout the natural world, human cultural artifacts (literature, music, etc.) are almost entirely preoccupied with them, and my personal experience is that they occur despite our best efforts to control them. Of course, there are countervailing urges for variety as well. This is just one of nature's cruel, contradictory jokes, IMO.

I think that attitudes towards monogamy and marriage are changing (at least in the U.S.) towards a type of serial monogamy in which life-long legalized marriage becomes less important for most people. I think this is a result of (a) people living longer than they used to, (b) increased economic independence among women, and (c) liberalized attitudes. In this respect, we probably agree about cultural, as opposed to innate, influences. But I don't think this will erase the innate urges towards monogamy, pairing, jealousy and possessiveness. They might become diminished, but I don't think they'll be erased.

This was my point in mentioning utopian movements - every effort to institutionalize "free love" has failed, because these innate urges can't be overcome by doctrine, no more than the urge for variety can be overcome. In many cases, the "free love" philosophy was, in truth, an effort on the part of powerful males to control and sleep with as many females as possible, which is really what most "swingers" groups are about, IMO.

I think that age is an important factor. Despite all of the cultural movements away from traditional marriage and towards "free love" (not just in the '60's, but in, for instance, Russia in the early part of the 20th Century), people seem to revert to old patterns, especially people in early adulthood. I've seen it in my own extended family - despite all the divorces, etc., the urge to merge and marry seldom seems to dissipate among young adults. I'm not suggesting that we have no free will, only that there are extremely strong natural forces at work as well.

Personally, I happen to share many of your attitudes about relationships, as expressed in your response to Millennium. So we probably agree more than it seems. I just don't think we can eradicate the urges towards monogamy, jealousy or possessiveness.

[theiliad]

Hi again everybody. Once again I want to thank you all from your responses, things have got much better in the last few days as I have thought them through logically.
I still want to be with her but even if she wanted to it could never be the same as it was so I don't believe that there is any point. I honestly believe (and as some of you have said) that things were beyond my control. Since we were apart for so long I suppose she flirted with him the same way she did me when we first got together and this started her thinking that our relationship wasn't as fresh anymore( but then again after two years who can expect any different?) as one person said it kinda like capatilism and I suppose that is right to an extent.

I still think about her most of the time but it's getting easier, I'm trying to take Cipher's advice of getting over it quickly. As it stands things are good but if she does start seeing the guy she scored with I don't think I will talk to her much, not because of the fact that she has a new bf, that's none of my business now but the fact that she is with the guy she cheated on me with, I would find that very insulting. I had her on a pedestal but that image is gone now, she went behind my back, lied and cheated, to even talk to her means she's getting off lightly.

I have added what is hopefully the final draft of my list, as you can see many of the new points are from this discussion. Thank you all for your comments and support, I'll let you know how the rest of this plays out.




1. Never think it�s going to last forever�
2. Don�t get complacent, always try new things
and don�t �settle in� too much�
3. Don�t trust anyone too much.
You can�t expect too much of people.
4. Women need attention, constant attention.
5. Read the signs, they�re there if you look for them.
6. Nothing is what it�s �supposed� to be. What you do
in the time you have is what decides the future,
nothing else.
7. Life must go forward. It can�t go in circles. JJ ( James Joyce ref " History
is a nightmare from which I'm trying to awake")
8. Learn from both yours and others mistakes.
What is past is prologue.
9. This isn�t easy�This isn�t easy at all��..
10. Everyone has the power to forgive, no-one has the
power to forget.

11. You can�t impose your morals on other people. It�s
what they decide on their own and how they act in
a difficult situation that shows the kind of person
that they are. The way they treat you afterwards will
you more about them than you could ever learn together.

12. Wisdom only comes to us one way � the hard way.

13. Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.

14. Sometimes no matter how much you want something
and no matter how hard you try and change things,
the situation is beyond your control and there is
nothing you can do.

15. A woman either feels right in a relationship or she
doesn't, no amount of artificially trying to spice things
up or trying to convince them will change that.

16. Relationships are messy - trying to make rules about
them or "work" on them is mostly futile. After something
like this happens there is no way to make things the
way they were. Maybe, sometime in the future there maybe
a chance but it would have to be in a different form and in
a different way. Make no mistake, I want her back, but
would it really be worth it if it came with this much baggage?

17. What you feel after the end is not as important as the
way in which you deal with the situation, to be bitter
is to give someone else control of your emotions, to
forgive something that goes beyond your moral absolutes
is to show the kind of person that you are.
After that, it truly is their loss�

theiliad
21-10-02

[Zimmerman]

Originally posted by theiliad:
13. Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.
theiliad
21-10-02

Ironically, this point has roots in all the others and is the wisest and truest of all the points made.

Dr. Dobson says you should enter a relationship with you eyes wide open and into marraige with your eyes half closed. Even if you don't agree with him because he is a conservative talkshow host, contemplate the truth of this statement.

"How could I know?"
As corny as this sounds, there is a template in the Bible, the book of Proverbs to be exact, of what a good woman looks like (not physically, dummy). Get a feel for the kind of woman it describes and you will find a woman of noble charicter who will be faithful and worthy of your praise. Unless you are looking for a skank or some other toy, then whatever.

These things are true regardless whether you consider the Bible "insipred" or "divine" or "authoratative".

[theiliad]

I just wanted to let you know what has been going on. In the last few days another girla has been flirting with me alot, at first I didn't think much of this, the nerves were still a bit to raw. But I began to realise that there is really no chance for Andrea and I getting back together, I had done everything I could and it changed nothing.
I got with Fiona tonight, Andrea wasn't around. I'm not sure if we're going to go out but if we do it won't be a serious relationship, just some fun ( I think I need it at this stage). I'm not doing this out of spite or anything like that. I care for Andrea very deeply but I can't live my life chasing something i can't have, besides I'm only 20, there's plenty of time for alot of other stuff before I have to find "the one". I think this will be good for me, any opinions are apprectiated though.

Thanks all