[Big Mac]

http://www.pjtv.com/video/Louder_Wit...etter%3F/2153/

Brilliant video debunking the myth that Canada's single payer health care system and the high taxation it requires is a panacea. In truth, that burden contributes to a worse standard of living and poorer quality health care for the working class. But the USA is on its way down the tubes so I don't know if it's worth even talking about at this point.

[olePigeon]

Do you even know who Steven Crowder is?

[Leonard Skinner]

Well since there is no such thing as CanadaCare I would say you suck at this thread.

[stumblinmike]

[ShortcutToMoncton]

I can't view the vid, but is it debunking the hypothesis that Canada has socialized medicine and high taxation, which therefore leads to a lower standard of living?

[ghporter]

I think Big Mac's point is that "socialized medicine is not a panacea and is usually expensive while providing spotty but generally poor standards of care." That's what I see in both Canada and the UK. Other places, like New Zealand, also have large government commitments to socialized medicine-how well do they work?

I'd like to see government assistance in obtaining health insurance in the US. I'd like to see Medicare scrapped and rebuilt as a much smaller, much more efficient operation. I'd like to see Medicare rules copyrighted, requiring insurance companies to BUY RIGHTS to use them-which would reduce insurers idiotically parroting Medicare standards in contexts that they don't make sense in. But mostly I'd like to see government support for making sure that PREVENTATIVE CARE is both available and paid for, especially with kids and expecting mothers. None of that is "socialized medicine." None of it would be particularly cheap, either, but at least we might get something worthwhile out of our tax dollars, instead of the rather enormous Medicare-swindle investigation budget the Department of Justice has to catch people who find ways to manipulate this dim-witted leviathan.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Do you even know who Steven Crowder is?

Who do you think he is?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

My predictions for this thread: [leaving check marks for myself as they come true]

1. Weak attempts to shoot the messenger. [check]

2. Outright denial. [check]

3. "I couldn't/didn't bother to watch, but anyway it must be wrong, blah de blah..." [check]

4. "It's fake!" [ ]

5. Ignore the points made, and try to shift focus to attacking the US health care system. [check]

6. "This is too boring to discuss. If only everyone would debate my way..." [ ]

7. A list of predictions for this thread. [check]

8. in place of actually addressing the subject matter [check]

9. Various dodges, smokescreens, derails, attacks against the OP and other methods of shifting focus away from actually addressing the subject matter. [check]

10. Pretending not to even know that the subject is about the Canadian healthcare system and socialized medicine, not [Bush] [Iraq War] [R vs D] [Various other favorite dodges]. [ ]

[lpkmckenna]

Wow, this "Steven Crowder" fellow seems like such a trustworthy guy.

So a private clinic is closed on Sunday, but this is the result of gov't healthcare?

So he went to the emergency room, with a non-emergency injury, and is surprised he needs to wait?

Then he went to a clinic, before knowing what services that clinic provides? (I used to take Lithium, and needed regular blood tests to ensure it was the best dosage. I never had any problem getting a test.) And he's complaining that he can't get a blood test on the weekend? Why? If he did have a family doctor, he would need to visit during working hours, wouldn't he? The doctor isn't on call 24/7 for blood tests.

Here's the deal: you need a family doctor. If you aren't on a list for a family doctor, you're an idiot. Ergo, this guy's friends are idiots. These guys have living in Canada their whole lives, but aren't on a list, even though they have no doctor? Idiots.

I feel bad for that woman's mother. Of course, doctors in the US never make mistakes. There are no American healthcare horror stories, at all. Cute chick with a baby was misdiagnosed? Never happens in an American hospital, I'm certain.

The guy needing a dermatologist for clear his acne could have gotten a referral from his family doctor. Oh, no family doctor? Another idiot. I visited a dermatologist once for acne. Because had a referral, I had an appointment in a couple of weeks.

Lastly, his claim "government programs are always inefficient" is nonsense. A single-payer system is the most efficient system for emergency health insurance.

Then he goes into a pointless rant about sales taxes, so I turned it off.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

My predictions for this thread: [leaving check marks for myself as they come true]

1. Weak attempts to shoot the messenger. [check]

2. Outright denial. [check]

3. "I couldn't/didn't bother to watch, but anyway it must be wrong, blah de blah..." [check]

4. "It's fake!" [ ]

5. Ignore the points made, and try to shift focus to attacking the US health care system. [ ]

6. "This is too boring to discuss. If only everyone would debate my way..." [ ]

7. A list of predictions for this thread. [check]

8. in place of actually addressing the subject matter [check]

9. Various dodges, smokescreens, derails, attacks against the OP and other methods of shifting focus away from actually addressing the subject matter. [ ]

10. Pretending not to even know that the subject is about the Canadian healthcare system and socialized medicine, not [Bush] [Iraq War] [R vs D] [Various other favorite dodges]. [ ]

Is this a kind of pre-emptive "shoot the messenger" tactic?

[lpkmckenna]

BTW, Canada doesn't have "socialized medicine." No doctor in Canada works for the government, they are in private practice. The government runs the insurance system.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Right, so another #1 and combo #9. Noted.

Fun thread already!

[lpkmckenna]

BTW, I love the bit about the American "with a Canadian health care card." Yankee parasites like that make me sick.

[Chuckit]

I hate videos. They're such a waste of time. If you care about your readers or just want to have any, link to text.

[besson3c]

Crash: I would bet that most of us could have predicted the outcome of this thread based on the inflammatory thread title alone.

[Big Mac]

That's a cop out, besson, and you know it. If you disagree with Crowder's finding why not provide some substantive argument against it?

Chuckit: As for hating videos, they can be a very effective tool, but I do agree text should accompany them.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

BTW, I love the bit about the American "with a Canadian health care card." Yankee parasites like that make me sick.

Wait, so you're saying you don't have an obligation to pay for health insurance for just anyone that wanders over the border?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Crash: I would bet that most of us could have predicted the outcome of this thread based on the inflammatory thread title alone.

Ahh, "Complain about thread title" perhaps should have been a category. We'll just call it a #9.

"Complain about medium" is also a pretty good dodge.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Wait, so you're saying you don't have an obligation to pay for health insurance for just anyone that wanders over the border?

Delectable.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

lpkmckenna nailed it I'm afraid.

greg

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

BTW, Canada doesn't have "socialized medicine." No doctor in Canada works for the government, they are in private practice. The government runs the insurance system.

Thank you for the correction; I have noted it by editing my OP. However, I don't see it as very salient a distinction that doctors technically can call their practices private when so much of the system is controlled directly by government.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Thank you for the correction; I have noted it by editing my OP. However, I don't see it as very salient a distinction that doctors technically can call their practices private when so much of the system is controlled directly by government.

Just so I understand. The practice is "private", but the Canadian government is the insurer? Is that the only insurance available?

[Big Mac]

They're the primary insurer. There's supplemental insurance. It appears to be similar to what America could have if the private insurers go out of business and we get Medicare-for-All.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Brilliant video debunking the myth that Canada's single payer health care system and the high taxation it requires is a panacea.

Article in the Denver Post debunking the myth that Canada has significantly higher taxation than the US (as well as other conservative myths about the Canadian Heath Care system).

Originally Posted by The Denver Post

http://www.denverpost.com/recommended/ci_12523427
At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.

[Big Mac]

If so, that's all the more reason to reject this federal takeover of health care. Taxes would invariably have to go up.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

If so, that's all the more reason to reject this federal takeover of health care. Taxes would invariably have to go up.

Or, maybe *down* in other places.

[Big Mac]

There's no way that a huge new entitlement and bureaucracy to accompany it could ever possibly produce a net savings or a reduction in the tax burden. I can't think of a single historical example that would contradict that claim. Huge tax hikes and higher prices are assuredly coming with the implementation of Obama's agenda.

While Canada and some other single payer countries are looking to the private sector to spur competition and lower costs, the United States is going in the oppose direction.

Of course, I think the insurance industry could preempt Obama very easily by just agreeing to certain reforms. Instead they're going to let the federal government take even more of the economy over. Too bad, this was once a great country.

Here's a relevant GOP post: CBO Confirms Governent Takeover Will Increase Cost of Health Care

[Powerbook]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I think Big Mac's point is that "socialized medicine is not a panacea and is usually expensive while providing spotty but generally poor standards of care." That's what I see in both Canada and the UK. Other places, like New Zealand, also have large government commitments to socialized medicine-how well do they work?

On the other hand, Cuba (Boo hiss!) - unarguably a very communist country - has the best health care system in its peer group. Cuban people complain about many things, but not health care. In some areas (like eye operations, iirc) their doctors are on par with the best world wide.

PB.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

On the other hand, Cuba (Boo hiss!) - unarguably a very communist country - has the best health care system in its peer group. Cuban people complain about many things, but not health care. In some areas (like eye operations, iirc) their doctors are on par with the best world wide.

PB.

What is "its peer group"? Are its peers "countries with poor healthcare"?

[stumblinmike]

Let's all shed a tear for the poor insurance "industry". Good riddance!

[hyteckit]

Wouldn't it be great if firefighting services were privatize.

Before we start putting out the fire, we'll need to verify your policy to determine if your house is covered under our policy and what is covered. It might take 20 minutes or so to verify your policy because out computers are slow today, so please hold.

Sorry Mr. Smith, but your policy only covers 20 mins of our services per month. We can continue, but you'll have to pay additional $500 for each additional 30 mins of service. Do you want us to proceed?

Sorry Mr. Smith, but your policy only covers putting out fire in the living room, but not the bedroom. Putting out fire in the bedroom is additional $1000.

Sorry Mr. Smith, but your policy only covers electrical fires. Fires started by gas, matches, flammable liquids, and so forth are not covered. The amount you owe is $5000.

Sorry Mr. Smith, because the fire hydrant we use to fight the fire is out of our network, we'll need to charge you an additional $1000 for its use.


Sorry Mr. Smith, but we are not able to put you on our firefighting policy because your house is a fire hazard or in a fire hazard zone. You'll either need to put out the fire yourself or find a firefighting company that does it by a case per case basis. Check your phone book and make sure they are working at those hours your need them, and make sure you know what's covered and how much it'll cost.

[Chongo]

We do have private fire protection here in Maricopa County provided by Rural Metro.

RuralMetro.com Over 50 Years of Serving Others

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Wouldn't it be great if firefighting services were privatize.

Before we start putting out the fire, we'll need to verify your policy to determine if your house is covered under our policy and what is covered. It might take 20 minutes or so to verify your policy because out computers are slow today, so please hold.

Sorry Mr. Smith, but your policy only covers 20 mins of our services per month. We can continue, but you'll have to pay additional $500 for each additional 30 mins of service. Do you want us to proceed?

Yeah, that doesn't sound anything like a state-run bureaucracy such as the DMV.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Yeah, that doesn't sound anything like a state-run bureaucracy such as the DMV.

So can we agree that the level of irritating, debilitating bureaucracy is not necessarily correlated to whether the organization is private or public?

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

However, I don't see it as very salient a distinction that doctors technically can call their practices private when so much of the system is controlled directly by government.

The health care industry is regulated by the gov't, just like every other industry, both in Canada and the US. The system isn't "controlled directly."

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

The health care industry is regulated by the gov't, just like every other industry, both in Canada and the US. The system isn't "controlled directly."

In Canada, who pays the bill?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

So can we agree that the level of irritating, debilitating bureaucracy is not necessarily correlated to whether the organization is private or public?

I wouldn't say that. There's roughly a 98% chance that you'll encounter bureaucracy when you go through the government, whereas it's only when a business gets too big for its own good that you're likely to encounter bureaucracy there. In a healthy market with competition, you have to excel in some way or the guy down the street can steal all your customers. The government doesn't have that problem — it has no incentive to provide anything but the bare minimum level of service it can get away with.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Who do you think he is?

He's an upstart conservative Christian Republican comedian that's trying to do political commentary but falling extremely short because his satire and irony is overshadowed by his complete lack of understanding of the topics he raises.

Take his Qu'ran Challenge, for example. It would be funny if he were talking about religion in general, but he cherry picks the Qu'ran in a feat of hypocrisy rivaled only by this forum.

[Wiskedjak]

I thought we weren't supposed to take comedians seriously?

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I thought we weren't supposed to take comedians seriously?

Unless you live in Minnesota.

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I wouldn't say that. There's roughly a 98% chance that you'll encounter bureaucracy when you go through the government, whereas it's only when a business gets too big for its own good that you're likely to encounter bureaucracy there. In a healthy market with competition, you have to excel in some way or the guy down the street can steal all your customers. The government doesn't have that problem — it has no incentive to provide anything but the bare minimum level of service it can get away with.

Right, it's correlated with the size and competitive pressures on the organizations involved, and not their public-or-private status. The problem is that the current health insurance industry is not, and probably never will be, a healthy market with competition.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

The problem, though, is that the current health insurance industry is not, and probably never will be, a healthy market with competition.

And, it's also too big for it's own good and therefore rife with bureaucracy.

[shifuimam]

I have a hard time buying that a system that mostly works for 33mil-odd citizens is going to scale up reliably for 300mil-odd citizens. It's something that people seem to ignore most of the time - any socialist program is going to break down when you have too many people on it, because the sheer size of the population makes it too easy for abuse. Instead of being on a waiting list for six months for some particular treatment or procedure, you might be on a waiting list for years - and have to travel across the country - because of how many people are already on that list.

I had to have a procedure done last year in order to remove cervical cells that would have developed into cancer had they not been removed. I imagine this isn't necessarily considered a life-threatening problem, and given how many women carry HPV in the United States, I don't want to think about how long I might have had to wait to get the procedure done had we been on a government-paid healthcare system that would prevent me from going to a private gynecologist when I wanted and needed it.

Originally Posted by Powerbook 

On the other hand, Cuba (Boo hiss!) - unarguably a very communist country - has the best health care system in its peer group. Cuban people complain about many things, but not health care. In some areas (like eye operations, iirc) their doctors are on par with the best world wide.

PB.

Could you provide some actual evidence of this? Maybe Cuba does have the best health care system in its peer group, but you're comparing it to what, other third-world countries in the Caribbean? That's not really saying much, is it? Cuba's health care system is far from perfect. According to Wikipedia, doctors only get paid about $15 a month. Access to state-of-the-art technology is at a minimum, as is access to many critical medications due to the trade embargo the United States has imposed against Cuba. I realize that Michael Moore wants you to believe that Cuba's citizens are far healthier and better cared for than US citizens, but recall that he's getting his "proof" from the Cuban government, who is going to jump at any chance to push its propaganda on the American population.

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

Right, it's correlated with the size and competitive pressures on the organizations involved, and not their public-or-private status. The problem is that the current health insurance industry is not, and probably never will be, a healthy market with competition.

It seems to me that the problem is more with the astronomical cost of medical care. There's competition in the health insurance industry, although if you go with your employer's insurance plan, no - you're not going to have a lot of choices. Because medical care is generally so costly, insurance companies have no choice but to charge high premiums for the coverage they provide. They're banking on you not needing to use the coverage, so that the money you're paying into the program can go to pay for someone with cancer who's racking up seven figures in medical bills over his or her lifetime.

It just doesn't make sense that there's no alternative to a single payer system that rids us of privatized health care. We should be able to keep medical costs at a reasonable level without relying on the government to foot the bill all the time. Not only that, but if we were to cut out private health care and rely on a public, government-run system, how would that impact medical research and development? If development slows to a crawl because the funds aren't there for Lilly and Pfizer and Merck to develop new drugs and technologies, how will that affect the rest of the planet that inevitably relies on the pace of development in the United States for advances in their own technologies?

I think it's also worth mentioning that Americans have one hell of a time taking care of themselves. No way on God's green earth do I want my tax dollars paying for some fatass to undergo gastric bypass just so that they can avoid the diet and exercise required to lose weight the way people in other countries do.

Also, Michael Moore's face makes me want to vomit. He looks like a morbidly obese troll. Maybe he should cut fast food out of his diet and give the money he'd spend on Big Macs to people who can't afford health care...

[SpaceMonkey]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

There's competition in the health insurance industry, although if you go with your employer's insurance plan, no - you're not going to have a lot of choices.

There's not much of it. Fears that a single-payer system will drastically increase costs due to the lack of competition are overblown. It's already happened.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

Wow, this "Steven Crowder" fellow seems like such a trustworthy guy.

So a private clinic is closed on Sunday, but this is the result of gov't healthcare?

Not necessarily, but Immediate Care centers are open 24/7 in most cities. You'll have to pay cash, but even then it's only about $100 (you can file a claim with your insurance later).

...As opposed to Crowder's friend, who was told he could pay $900 cash for a checkup instead of waiting for a family doctor.

So he went to the emergency room, with a non-emergency injury, and is surprised he needs to wait?

Yet he wouldn't have had to go to the ER had there been a regular clinic/medicenter/immediate care open on the weekend.

Then he went to a clinic, before knowing what services that clinic provides? (I used to take Lithium, and needed regular blood tests to ensure it was the best dosage. I never had any problem getting a test.) And he's complaining that he can't get a blood test on the weekend? Why? If he did have a family doctor, he would need to visit during working hours, wouldn't he? The doctor isn't on call 24/7 for blood tests.

True, but a blood test is a pretty simple thing, particularly for something like your cholesterol level. Prick your finger, stick the blood on a piece of paper (or whatever it is they do), wait a few minutes, get your cholesterol reading. I know it takes little time, because my last employer did screenings as part of a healthy living initiative. I got my glucose and cholesterol numbers in about fifteen minutes.

Here's the deal: you need a family doctor. If you aren't on a list for a family doctor, you're an idiot. Ergo, this guy's friends are idiots. These guys have living in Canada their whole lives, but aren't on a list, even though they have no doctor? Idiots.

Maybe, but what about people who have recently moved? Does it actually take two to three years to get in with a family doctor? What happens if you move to a new city or province, or you move to Canada from another country? I made my ex go to a doctor for the first time in years once, and we were able to find someone immediately (and it was cheap, because it was a nurse practitioner instead of an MD). My own GP doesn't currently take new patients unless they're related to his existing patients, but that's because he's a one-man deal and has been in practice for about 25 years. There's only one of him, so he doesn't exactly have the time to take on new patients.

I feel bad for that woman's mother. Of course, doctors in the US never make mistakes. There are no American healthcare horror stories, at all. Cute chick with a baby was misdiagnosed? Never happens in an American hospital, I'm certain.

How about the woman who had to wait a freaking year for treatment?

What about the guy who was told to wait four days before he could get a tetanus shot after stepping on a rusty nail, because they ran out of the vaccine?

The guy needing a dermatologist for clear his acne could have gotten a referral from his family doctor. Oh, no family doctor? Another idiot. I visited a dermatologist once for acne. Because had a referral, I had an appointment in a couple of weeks.

Again - what if you've just moved to a new locale and are still on a waiting list to get a family doctor? What, you're just supposed to hope and pray that you don't get ill until you've waited long enough?

Yeah, it sucks that people in the US who need care can't necessarily get it because they can't afford it, but it's not any more fair to force people who can afford it to be on the same waiting lists and eternal delays that the poor folks would have to put up with in a public health care system. Why punish me because I have a job that provides health insurance? I'm sorry that you don't have the same fortune, but it's total bullshit to punish me because you don't have what I have.

That's ultimately what socialism and communism aim to do - even the playing field and make everyone a "have not", so that poor people can have the same things rich people have without having to pay or work for it. It's not fair that the unemployed single mom can't afford insulin for her diabetes, so we should also force the middle-class or wealthy stay-at-home mom to be on the same waiting list, right? It's not fair that the same single mom can only actually afford to live in a small one-bedroom apartment for $400 a month, so we should steal money from the mom who can afford to buy a home, and give it to the single mom so that she can feel more on the same level with the middle class.

I don't think people really realize what will happen if you try to make everyone middle class. Life has to suck for some of the population. It's inevitable. That way, you have a pool of people who are willing to stoop to do the work that the rest of us don't want to do - you know, like driving a garbage truck or working on a construction crew or manning the local water waste plant or working at Taco Bell.

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by SpaceMonkey 

There's not much of it. Fears that a single-payer system will drastically increase costs due to the lack of competition are overblown. It's already happened.

That doesn't change that the problem is the high cost of health care, not the high cost of insurance. When a three-day hospital stint runs $85,000, how the hell do you expect the insurance company to cover that unless they ass-rape their clients on premiums?

I just don't buy that we can't lower the cost of health care while maintaining a private system. We've managed to regulate other near-monopolies to keep their services affordable. Why can't we do the same with health care? There's no reason for a neurosurgeon fresh out of his residency to start out at $1.23mil (I know someone who got that very salary).

I could hesitantly support a program that would provide basic preventive care to everyone - you know, things like vaccines, semiannual teeth cleanings, and certain preventive procedures like pap smears, mammograms, and colonoscopies. But trying to give all health care to all people is a disaster waiting to happen, especially when you consider the poor health of the average American, combined with the sheer population of the United States. You really want your tax dollars paying for ADD medication for millions of children, just so that their parents can continue to avoid, you know, actively raising them?

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Yeah, that doesn't sound anything like a state-run bureaucracy such as the DMV.

Dealing with the DMV is like dealing with the cable company.

You don't have to deal with them often, but when you do, it can be like pulling teeth.

Luckily, I haven't had to go to a DMV for the past 5 years.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

We do have private fire protection here in Maricopa County provided by Rural Metro.

RuralMetro.com Over 50 Years of Serving Others

Shut up! You mean to tell me a public option and a private option can co-exist?

Next you tell me that I can hire private body guards and security officers instead of relying on the police.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Dealing with the DMV is like dealing with the cable company.

You don't have to deal with them often, but when you do, it can be like pulling teeth.

Exactly. And exactly why no one in their right mind wants actually needing a tooth pulled (or any other medical procedure) to be like dealing with the DMV.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Exactly. And exactly why no one in their right mind wants actually needing a tooth pulled (or any other medical procedure) to be like dealing with the DMV.

But... that's totally different. You're creating a straw-man here, which is really the basis for much of the misinformation in this thread. "Socialized" medicine in Canada is nothing like the DMV. It isn't like dealing with a government branch. Hospital workers are not government employees in the strict sense.

A lot of Americans in this thread seem to think that government-paid hospitals will result in lazy, bored, inefficient, meetings-oriented hospital workers just like at the DMV or some other government branch.

As lpkmckenna already said, medicine in Canada isn't controlled by the government, except insofar as the overall budgets are controlled. Of course that affects the size/overall quality/extent of services offered, but other than that the system is merely government regulated as I understand it. It's not like the nurses and doctors up here are lazier/worse/etc. because they "suckle on the public teat"....

greg