[- - e r i k - -]

Aha. But the world does not revolve around you Kevin. I'm talking to Cody Dawg and the other Christians around here that actually feels that Christmas has gotten out of hand - and it has. It has become a politically correct soup of pagan, religious and multi-cultural celebrations at a time where most Christians celebrate one of their most important holidays. What you put into it might be admirable, but a lot of Christians feel different.

I say, make Christ's Mass a separate holiday and leave everyone else to celebrate whatever holiday they feel like. Who's with me? Memento?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by tooki

Saying that it's an American holiday about gift giving and goodwill is kinda wrong. Pretty much everywhere Christmas is celebrated at all it is about gift giving and goodwill.

And I did not suggest anything to the contrary.

I simply said that, while Christmas started as a holiday celebrating Christ's birth, it is also a gift-giving holiday that is part of American culture. I am well aware that some other countries celebrate very similar Christmas traditions, but I wasn't discussing those countries.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Yes he is!

I promise.

Ask a kid who Santa Claus is. It's doubtful they'll talk about the saint. They'll probably talk about the North Pole and gifts.

I grew up Catholic. Both at school and at home we celebrated St. Nick's Day. No mention of Santa Claus on those days either.

Sorry, but Santa Claus isn't the same as St. Nick.

[Kevin]

Ignorants don't make up facts. Sorry.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Ignorants don't make up facts. Sorry.

What does this post mean? "I apologize that people without knowledge don't lie"?

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Ignorants don't make up facts. Sorry.

How about actually addressing the stuff I said?

[Kevin]

I am saying just because someone may be ignorant that Santa Claus = St. Nick doesn't mean he suddenly isn't anymore.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I am saying just because someone may be ignorant that Santa Claus = St. Nick doesn't mean he suddenly isn't anymore.

I'm not arguing the historical fact.

I'm arguing that fact becomes woefully absent from a large portion of people's holiday, it creates a new holiday. You can't acknowledge and celebrate something you don't believe in.

[- - e r i k - -]

Don't worry about Kevin addressing anything remotely useful. He's just incapable of such things.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakar

I'm not arguing the historical fact.

Yes, actually you were. You were basically saying since some children didn't know St. Nick = Santa Claus, it basically meant Santa was a whole new person. I told you that ignorance doesn't suddenly make something factual.

I'm arguing that fact becomes woefully absent from a large portion of people's holiday, it creates a new holiday.

No new holiday. Same holiday. Ignorance also does not make a new holiday.

You can't acknowledge and celebrate something you don't believe in.

I agree 100%.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Don't worry about Kevin addressing anything remotely useful. He's just incapable of such things.

erik has reverted to ad-hominem silliness.

100% Silliness at that.

[- - e r i k - -]

It was called for. You are constantly evading stuff you are clearly incapable or unwilling to answer. In Cody Dawgs words: You are owned

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

It was called for. You are constantly evading stuff you are clearly incapable or unwilling to answer.

Er I answered everything. I may have not given the answers YOU WANTED. But too bad. that isn't how it works.

If there is anything that I didn't answer, feel free to mention it and I will.

In Cody Dawgs words: You are owned

Owned? I didn't even come CLOSE to getting owned.

That's funny.

I understand you are using a self-defense mechnism eric. But don't make it so obvious.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Yes, actually you were. You were basically saying since some children didn't know St. Nick = Santa Claus, it basically meant Santa was a whole new person. I told you that ignorance doesn't suddenly make something factual.

Santa is a whole new person. Go check out all the movies about him. He split off from his roots quite some time ago.

Originally Posted by Kevin

No new holiday. Same holiday. Ignorance also does not make a new holiday.

Sorry, but you can't celebrate something for different reasons in a different way and maintain its the same holiday.

If play a game by a new completely new set of rules, its not really the same game, now is it?

[BlueSky]

I thought it was "pwned". Dammit, I can't keep up with this webernet slang. I must be a new bee or whatever.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Yes, actually you were. You were basically saying since some children didn't know St. Nick = Santa Claus, it basically meant Santa was a whole new person. I told you that ignorance doesn't suddenly make something factual.

Essentially none of the facts in the Santa Claus mythology were true of Saint Nicholas. They may have started as the same person, but Santa spun off into a mythological figure separate from the real Nicholas.

[PacHead]

Anybody who calls a Christmas tree for any other name besides Christmas tree is a first degree moron and they shall hereafter be known by their newly designated name. If a few Grinches do not wish to celebrate or partake in Christmas then that is their perrogative, but this small group of psychotic fascists will not succeed in renaming something that does not concern them at all.

[andi*pandi]

Originally Posted by BlueSky

I must be a new bee or whatever.

took me 2 seconds. excellent.

and I must be getting old, I'm agreeing with PacHead.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi

and I must be getting old, I'm agreeing with PacHead.

NO, you're not. Without all the vitriol PacHead makes a good point.

I would say those people who want to call it a Christmas tree call it that, those who want to call it a "holiday tree" can call it that.

Many public places put up trees and call them "holiday trees" do so out of recognition that a) not all people celebrate Christmas and b) some people put up a tree around this time for lots of other reasons.

My Mom likes to put up a Christmas tree with al the decoartions and trimming and a lovely angel on top. Me, I've got a nice little Norfolk pine I like to decorate with lights as it's nice seeing something so festive and green during the darkest time of the year.

I say call it what you want but don't try and make other people call it something they don't want to call it. You know, treat others as you would like to be treated.

[olePigeon]

I nominate "Whogivesaf*ck tree"

[Dakar]

I seriously think I'd do a double-take is someone used the term Holiday Tree around me in real life.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Santa is a whole new person. Go check out all the movies about him. He split off from his roots quite some time ago.

Same person, but given "super powers" He is still known as "Jolly old St Nick"

I asked a 7 year old boy today who St Nick was. His answer? "Santa"

Sorry, but you can't celebrate something for different reasons in a different way and maintain its the same holiday.

Correct you can! I would never say otherwise. I was saying people that do, shouldn't expect people to not use the word "Christmas" when referring to this time of year.

If play a game by a new completely new set of rules, its not really the same game, now is it?

Depends, sometimes a game does change rules. Basketball today isn't the same as Basketball 6 years ago. But it's still Basketball.

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Essentially none of the facts in the Santa Claus mythology were true of Saint Nicholas. They may have started as the same person, but Santa spun off into a mythological figure separate from the real Nicholas.

Actually St Nick was just given mythical powers. He is still known as "St Nick"

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Same person, but given "super powers" He is still known as "Jolly old St Nick"

I asked a 7 year old boy today who St Nick was. His answer? "Santa"

I'm not surprised. Try reversing the question. I doubt they'll tell you Santa is St. Nick. Talk of the North Pole, I tell you.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Correct you can! I would never say otherwise. I was saying people that do, shouldn't expect people to not use the word "Christmas" when referring to this time of year.

I said can't maintain it's the same holiday. You said, correct, you 'can.' Clarify whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with your point.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Depends, sometimes a game does change rules. Basketball today isn't the same as Basketball 6 years ago. But it's still Basketball.

We're talking more like 50 years. Take Dolph Shayes and drop him into the league today and he will tell you that you are most definitely, not playing basketball. It looks similar on the surface but its not what he played.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakar

I'm not surprised. Try reversing the question. I doubt they'll tell you Santa is St. Nick. Talk of the North Pole, I tell you.

I am sure if you asked them what names Santa has they would.

I said can't maintain it's the same holiday. You said, correct, you 'can.' Clarify whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with your point.

Well then your not celebrating Christmas. You are celebrating something else that has nothing to do with it. I don't care about that. I am saying others should not expect those who DO celebrate Christmas, to STOP calling it that.

We're talking more like 50 years. Take Dolph Shayes and drop him into the league today and he will tell you that you are most definitely, not playing basketball. It looks similar on the surface but its not what he played.

Irrelevant my point still stands.

[demograph68]

Originally Posted by olePigeon

I nominate "Whogivesaf*ck tree"

I second that nomination.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Kevin

I am sure if you asked them what names Santa has they would.

That's my entire point. Very few are going to make that connection unless you lead them directly to it.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Well then your not celebrating Christmas. You are celebrating something else that has nothing to do with it. I don't care about that. I am saying others should not expect those who DO celebrate Christmas, to STOP calling it that.

And no where did I make that stipulation. The original statement was:

Originally Posted by Dakar

Christmas ceased being solely a Christian Holiday the day Santa Claus took hold.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Irrelevant my point still stands.

Because?

[teney7]

Originally Posted by osiris

I prefer a Festivus pole - to avoid the entire Christmas/Holiday argument in general.
Personally, I would've omitted the lights. Tinsel and lights are too distracting.

haha festivus.. george's dad is so funny in that episode

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakar

That's my entire point. Very few are going to make that connection unless you lead them directly to it.

Huh? I wasn't directing them to it. I just asked them. They already knew the connection.

And no where did I make that stipulation. The original statement was:

No Christmas IS STILL soley a Christian holiday. If you are celebrating something other than the birth of Jesus, you aren't celebrating Christmas. You are doing the "Festivus" or whatever thing I guess.

Because?

Because I showed were things can change but still be the same? Yes, yes I did.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Actually St Nick was just given mythical powers. He is still known as "St Nick"

Yes, but he is no longer identified with the actual saint. Their identities diverged at some point, and now they exist with completely separate legends — different stories, powers and goals. There are now two figures called "Saint Nick" — there is Saint Nicholas of Myra, and then there's Santa Claus/Kris Kringle/Father Christmas.

This is similar to how the unicorn is thought to have been inspired by the rhinoceros, but it is a separate, mythological animal. Or in the Bible, Elias and Elijah were the same person (written in two different languages), but in Mormonism they diverged into separate figures.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Huh? I wasn't directing them to it. I just asked them. They already knew the connection.

The way you phrased to question you did.

Originally Posted by Kevin

No Christmas IS STILL soley a Christian holiday. If you are celebrating something other than the birth of Jesus, you aren't celebrating Christmas. You are doing the "Festivus" or whatever thing I guess.

Celebrating the birth of Jesus is soley a Christian holiday. Buying and exchanging gifts and families & friends joining together at the same time is not.

Originally Posted by Kevin

Because I showed were things can change but still be the same? Yes, yes I did.

Between 6 years? C'mon. Christmas has changed in the past 50 years. And so has basketball. My point stands.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakar

The way you phrased to question you did.

AGAIN, unless they knew the answer FIRST, they would NOT have known what to answer. I did not give them the answe.

Celebrating the birth of Jesus is soley a Christian holiday. Buying and exchanging gifts and families & friends joining together at the same time is not.

We celebrate his birth by buying gifts for people. Like the wisemen did.

Between 6 years? C'mon. Christmas has changed in the past 50 years. And so has basketball. My point stands.

That was exactly my point. Basketball has changed yet it still is called basketball.

Christmas has changed (over thousands of years) but it's still called Christmas. And it's STILL about Christ.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakar

The way you phrased to question you did.

AGAIN, unless they knew the answer FIRST, they would NOT have known what to answer. I did not give them the answer. This is getting rediculous.

Celebrating the birth of Jesus is soley a Christian holiday. Buying and exchanging gifts and families & friends joining together at the same time is not.

We celebrate his birth by buying gifts for people. Like the wisemen did.

Between 6 years? C'mon. Christmas has changed in the past 50 years. And so has basketball. My point stands.

That was exactly my point. Basketball has changed yet it still is called basketball.

Christmas has changed (over thousands of years) but it's still called Christmas. And it's STILL about Christ.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Kevin

AGAIN, unless they knew the answer FIRST, they would NOT have known what to answer. I did not give them the answer. This is getting rediculous.

The only thing that's ridiculous is you dodging my point. Kids know where Santa was a saint, but that doesn't mean they consider him that. They consider him a reindeer driver who lives in the North Pole. He's a different figure now.

Originally Posted by Kevin

We celebrate his birth by buying gifts for people. Like the wisemen did.

So what do you call the holiday when people do all these things except celebrate Christ's birth?

Edit: Reworded for clarity.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakar

The only thing that's ridiculous is you dodging my point.

I am not dodging anything. If you are trying to make a point, you are doing a poor job of it.

Kids know where Santa was a saint, but that doesn't mean they consider him that.

No, that doesn't automatically mean that. But that is usually the case. Because they know he has more than one name.

They consider him a reindeer driver who lives in the North Pole. He's a different figure now.

No, he is the SAME FIGURE. You are just making up things Dakar. He isn't some new guy. He is an exaggerated tale of St Nick.

So what do you call it when people do all these things except celebrate Christ's birth?

I have no clue. Ask those people. It's not Christmas. Christmas is the celibration of Christ's birth. If you don't celibrate Christ's birth, how could it be Christmas?

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin

That was exactly my point. Basketball has changed yet it still is called basketball.

But it is no longer just practice for football, as Christmas is no longer just a celebration of Christ's birth.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin

Ask those people. It's not Christmas. Christmas is the celibration of Christ's birth. If you don't celibrate Christ's birth, how could it be Christmas?

You're begging the question.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

But it is no longer just practice for football,

What does basketball have to do with football?

as Christmas is no longer just a celebration of Christ's birth.

No seriously. That is exactly what Christmas is

Christ·mas    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (krsms)
n.

1. A Christian feast commemorating the birth of Jesus.
2. December 25, the day on which this feast is celebrated.


Why do you think the whole "Festivus" stuff started? It was started because people wanted to do the Christmas thing, without religion being involved. So they started their own little holiday.

Originally Posted by Chuckit

You're begging the question.

I'm begging the question? huh?
I am not begging anything.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Kevin

INo, he is the SAME FIGURE. You are just making up things Dakar. He isn't some new guy. He is an exaggerated tale of St Nick.

Then Christmas is just an exaggerated Saturnalia or a renamed celebration of Sol Invictus' birth.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I have no clue. Ask those people. It's not Christmas. Christmas is the celibration of Christ's birth. If you don't celibrate Christ's birth, how could it be Christmas?

Because of that commercial (secular) offshoot I've been telling you about for past 3 pages. You may not agree with calling it Christmas, but that doesn't change the fact that they seemed to have named it that.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin

What does basketball have to do with football?

It was invented by a football coach who wanted to give his boys something to do when they were indoors in the winter. It has since evolved into a professional sport that, as you have provided evidence, is no longer linked with football in anyone's mind.

Why do you think the whole "Festivus" stuff started? It was started because people wanted to do the Christmas thing, without religion being involved. So they started their own little holiday.

Jiminy Christmas. It was a joke on Seinfeld.

I'm begging the question? huh?
I am not begging anything.

Your argument that Christmas is an exclusively religious holiday can't use "Christmas is an exclusively religious holiday" as evidence for itself. That is called begging the question.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Then Christmas is just an exaggerated Saturnalia or a renamed celebration of Sol Invictus' birth.

No, because none are about Christ. Now you are just being silly.

Because of that commercial (secular) offshoot I've been telling you about for past 3 pages. You may not agree with calling it Christmas, but that doesn't change the fact that they seemed to have named it that.

That isn't an offshoot. You may see it as such. But I assure you, it's still Christmas.

Just like basketball is still basketball.

Basketball ceases to become basketbal with you take the ball and basket away.

Christmas ceases to become Christmas when you take the Christ away.

Originally Posted by Chuckit

It was invented by a football coach who wanted to give his boys something to do when they were indoors in the winter. It has since evolved into a professional sport that, as you have provided evidence, is no longer linked with football in anyone's mind.

But that isn't even closely similar.

Ever since the idea of actually playing basketball, the name hasn't changed. You just made an irrelevent point. Congratulations.

Jiminy Christmas. It was a joke on Seinfeld.

Actually I know people who celibrate it. They even have the silver poles.

Your argument that Christmas is an exclusively religious holiday can't use "Christmas is an exclusively religious holiday" as evidence for itself. That is called begging the question.

The fact that Christmas is ABOUT CHRIST says it's a exclusive religious holiday.

If you are celibrating Christmas, and don't believe in Christ, you are still celibrating his birth like it or not.

See some non-relgious zealots know this. that is why they want to stop calling Christmas Christmas. And call it "The Holidays" or some such.

That is why such a big deal is being made about the name. The very reason this thread was started.

[RAILhead]

I Jewish woman called-in to a radio show I listen to in the morning and she said she wanted to shed light on a new perspective, from her jewish standpoint. She said, in all seriousness, that she was offended when "they changed" the name from Christmas Tree to Holiday Tree because who are "they" to dictate what a Holiday is for her.

She liked Christmas Tree because it was something for Christians to celebrate. As a Jew, she said she calls her Menorah a Menorah, and what's next, someone will say it needs to be called a Holiday Candelabra?

[Cody Dawg]

She's got a point.

Jewish broads are always so darned smart.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Kevin

But that isn't even closely similar.

Ever since the idea of actually playing basketball, the name hasn't changed. You just made an irrelevent point. Congratulations.

Basketball started as a training exercise for football players, then developed a bunch of rules of its own and became a full-fledged sport for everyone, not just football players.

Christmas started as a celebration of Christ's birth, then developed a bunch of traditions and myths of its own and became a full-fledged holiday for everyone, not just Christians.

There, now they're formatted exactly the same. Do you see the point now?

Originally Posted by Kevin

The fact that Christmas is ABOUT CHRIST says it's a exclusive religious holiday.

If you are celibrating Christmas, and don't believe in Christ, you are still celibrating his birth like it or not.

So Christmas is about Christ because it's an exclusively religious holiday, and it's an exclusively religious holiday because it's about Christ?

[wdlove]

Originally Posted by Cody Dawg

She's got a point.

Jewish broads are always so darned smart.

Still not as smart as my Cody. She is awesome.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Basketball started as a training exercise for football players, then developed a bunch of rules of its own and became a full-fledged sport for everyone, not just football players.

Yes, I get this part. But it has NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT I SAID.

Christmas started as a celebration of Christ's birth, then developed a bunch of traditions and myths of its own and became a full-fledged holiday for everyone, not just Christians.

Yes it's for everyone. But it's STILL A CELIBRATION OF CHRIST'S BIRTH.

You don't have to be religious to celibrate. I promise. I know non-religious people that think this Christ guy was a pretty cool cat.

So Christmas is about Christ because it's an exclusively religious holiday, and it's an exclusively religious holiday because it's about Christ?

No. Because by definition Christmas is celibrating Christ's birth. That is what that word means.

Just like House means the place you live in.

Christmas means celibrating Christ's birth.

Not that hard of a idea to grasp there chuck. I have a feeling you are playing "Dense" on purpose.

AGAIN, if this weren't the case, why would there be people wanting to do away with the name Christmas to begine with?

Because it means to celibrate Christ's birth. And that really makes some people's skin crawl.

And I am sure these people would love to give Christmas a new meaning, and get rid of the Christ part. Hey, they can call it Cristmas!

But I tell you what Chuck. You go and celibrate Christmas and call it what you want. And get all edgy and denounce that Christ has anything to do with it.

I could care less. The facts will be the fact no matter what you tell yourself.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Kevin

No, because none are about Christ. Now you are just being silly.

Nope, just you missing the point as always. Christmas is based on those two festivals, just as the Commercial Christmas is based on the religious one. If you're gonna argue that something still relates to where it came from (St. Nick >>> Santa Clause), then you'd have to accept that Christmas is related to those holidays still.

Originally Posted by Kevin

That isn't an offshoot. You may see it as such. But I assure you, it's still Christmas.

Exchanging gifts without recognizing Jesus' birth is still Christmas?

Originally Posted by Kevin

Christmas ceases to become Christmas when you take the Christ away.

No, it merely cease to have any religous meaning.
In effect, you are spiritually neutering it.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Dakar

Nope, just you missing the point as always.

"as always" no I hardly ever "miss the point" I am not missing the point. I just don't AGREE with the point you are trying to make.

Christmas is based on those two festivals, just as the Commercial Christmas is based on the religious one.

No, there is one Christmas. It celibrates the birth of Jesus. Some people just celibrate "The Holidays" and give gifts out. There is a difference.

If you're gonna argue that something still relates to where it came from (St. Nick >>> Santa Clause), then you'd have to accept that Christmas is related to those holidays still.

No, beause Santa and St nick are the same person. And really it's a strawman comparison you are coming up with.

Exchanging gifts without recognizing Jesus' birth is still Christmas?

I don't believe so no. He was saying that Christmas wasn't Christmas anymore. You are arguing something different. I wasn't responding to you.

No, it merely cease to have any religous meaning.
In effect, you are spiritually neutering it.

The meaning of it is religious. When you take religion out of it, it's nothing. It has no other definition.

If you take the corn off the cob, what is left is no longer corn. Nor is it called corn.

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by Kevin

"as always" no I hardly ever "miss the point" I am not missing the point. I just don't AGREE with the point you are trying to make.

At least I have enough respect not to belittle you by calling you silly.

Originally Posted by Kevin

No, there is one Christmas. It celibrates the birth of Jesus. Some people just celibrate "The Holidays" and give gifts out. There is a difference.

And what do those people call that holiday? CHRISTMAS.

Originally Posted by Kevin

No, beause Santa and St nick are the same person. And really it's a strawman comparison you are coming up with.

Were.

Birth of Christ- Celebrated December 25th
Birth of Sol Invictus- Celebrated December 25th

Christmas- Feasting & exchanging of gifts
Saturnalia- Feasting & exchanging of gifts

Looks like the same holidays to me. All you did was change who you're celebrating.




K:If you don't celibrate Christ's birth, how could it be Christmas?
D:Because of that commercial (secular) offshoot
K:That isn't an offshoot ... it's still Christmas.
D:Exchanging gifts without recognizing Jesus' birth is still Christmas?
K:I don't believe so no.

You're not making a whole lot of sense there.

Originally Posted by Kevin

The meaning of it is religious. When you take religion out of it, it's nothing. It has no other definition.

If you take the corn off the cob, what is left is no longer corn. Nor is it called corn.

Ah, but if a good amount of people call it corn anyway, then the meaning changes. Words can have multiple meanings. Words meanings can get corrupted from misuse. This is nothing new. And that is what has happened here.

[RAILhead]

So what are we arguing about in here?

[Dakar]

Originally Posted by RAILhead

So what are we arguing about in here?

I argued that thanks to rampant commercialization, Christmas has essentially become two holidays, the religious one, where people honor Jesus' birth, feast, and exchange gifts, and the commercial one, where people just go out and purchase gifts, with no reflection of the holiday's religious meaning.

[RAILhead]

Ah.

I do both, myself.