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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Norway Terrorist Attacks

View Poll Results: The attacker(s) will be ...
Poll Options:
Islamic Jihadists 3 votes (15.00%)
Right-wing Norwegian Extremists 7 votes (35.00%)
Some random nutjob 9 votes (45.00%)
Other 1 votes (5.00%)
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll
Norway Terrorist Attacks (Page 2)
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Waragainstsleep
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Jul 25, 2011, 09:12 AM
 
It clearly gets in the way of progress when it tries to force schools to offer nonsense under the guise of science. Or when it sticks its nose into scientific research it doesn't like.

And why is it so difficult for you to admit that Christianity has been guilty of some terrible crimes. You don't explicitly say it, but your posts in this thread very much take a tone of "Christians can do no wrong or if they do its not because they are christians." No-one is accusing you personally of being on the verge of picking up a gun and going on a killing spree.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ort888
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Jul 25, 2011, 10:17 AM
 

My sig is 1 pixel too big.
     
Shaddim
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Jul 25, 2011, 10:30 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
One cannot be a Freemason and a Christian.
Bollocks
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Shaddim
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Jul 25, 2011, 10:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
so george washington wasn't a christian ?
No, he wasn't and neither was Ben Franklin. They were Deists.
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Chongo
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Jul 25, 2011, 11:19 AM
 
He couldn't even write his own "Manifesto."

Norway suspect borrowed from Unabomber's manifesto - Yahoo! News
     
Chongo
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Jul 25, 2011, 11:32 AM
 
     
screener
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Jul 25, 2011, 12:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post


You never fail to satisfy.
You don't.
     
ironknee
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Jul 25, 2011, 01:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
No, he wasn't and neither was Ben Franklin. They were Deists.



that's what the tea patters keep forgetting...our founding fathers where products of the enlightened age

rejecting the superstitions of christianity
     
ironknee
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Jul 25, 2011, 01:23 PM
 
not all christians are terrorists

but the oslo terrorist is a christian
     
besson3c
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Jul 25, 2011, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
not all christians are terrorists

but the oslo terrorist is a christian

And you are a Mormon?
     
Shaddim
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Jul 25, 2011, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post



that's what the tea patters keep forgetting...our founding fathers where products of the enlightened age

rejecting the superstitions of christianity
Christianity is fine, it's the shit added later that kills. Be a good Christian, just get rid of the dogma.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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ironknee
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Jul 25, 2011, 02:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
And you are a Mormon?
say what?
     
The Final Dakar
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Jul 25, 2011, 02:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
say what?
I'm with you on that.
     
Doofy
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Jul 25, 2011, 02:42 PM
 
No, I've got it at false flag event too. And I don't take any notice of the infowars idiots. The whole lot just doesn't add up. It smells wrong, if you know what I'm saying.
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Doofy
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Jul 25, 2011, 02:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Christianity is fine, it's the shit added later that kills. Be a good Christian, just get rid of the dogma.
Amen.
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besson3c
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Jul 25, 2011, 02:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by ironknee View Post
say what?

Just an educated guess.
     
ironknee
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Jul 25, 2011, 02:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Just an educated guess.
atheist and proud
     
OAW  (op)
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Jul 25, 2011, 03:55 PM
 
When you have an extreme right-winger who is seeking to start an "anti-Islamic revolution in Europe" ... who rants about founding an militant group called the Knights Templar in order to resist "Islamic colonization of Europe" ... who attacks government offices occupied by the ruling Labour party and slaughters kids at a summer camp sponsored by said party because he deems they have committed "treason" against their European heritage for promoting multiculturalism .... I think its going to be a stretch to argue that this guy wasn't at least partly motivated by his religious orientation. Now one can quibble about whether this guy represents "real Christianity" or not. That's cool. As long as such distinctions and nuances are extended across the board. Otherwise, there's that old "double-standard" thing to contend with.

OAW
     
Athens
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Jul 25, 2011, 04:30 PM
 
I dunno I think it easily can be racial motivated as much as religious in this case.
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lpkmckenna
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Jul 25, 2011, 04:35 PM
 
ebuddy's favorite talk show host has a few thoughts regarding the massacre in Norway. Beck: Youth Camp Attacked In Norway "Sounds A Little Like The Hitler Youth"

He also says he predicted this because "Europe is overrun with radical Islam" and "they are squeezing the neck of Europe" and "the shooter wants big-government."

Why would a sane person want to listen to this crap?
     
screener
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Jul 25, 2011, 04:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
ebuddy's favorite talk show host has a few thoughts regarding the massacre in Norway. Beck: Youth Camp Attacked In Norway "Sounds A Little Like The Hitler Youth"

He also says he predicted this because "Europe is overrun with radical Islam" and "they are squeezing the neck of Europe" and "the shooter wants big-government."

Why would a sane person want to listen to this crap?
Careful, someone's sensibilities may be hurt and the ignore list will grow.
     
ironknee
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Jul 25, 2011, 04:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
ebuddy's favorite talk show host has a few thoughts regarding the massacre in Norway. Beck: Youth Camp Attacked In Norway "Sounds A Little Like The Hitler Youth"

He also says he predicted this because "Europe is overrun with radical Islam" and "they are squeezing the neck of Europe" and "the shooter wants big-government."

Why would a sane person want to listen to this crap?
he blows up a government office because he wants big government...makes beck sense
     
lpkmckenna
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Jul 25, 2011, 04:44 PM
 
This appears to be a video by the killer posted to the web 2 days before his killing spree.

Notice his obsession with Marxism and Islam, neither of which realistically merit any notice on any list of important issues facing our world today. But read any right-wing blog or listen to Glenn Beck, you'd think they are important.
     
lpkmckenna
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Jul 25, 2011, 04:56 PM
 
Regarding the peculiar attitude towards Christianity the shooter has (he says he is a "cultural Christian," not someone who has "a personal relationship with Jesus"), I am struck by how close his ideas are to Leo Strauss, the godfather of Neoconservatives.

Like Strauss, he regards religion as a useful glue for pragmatic reasons, something that the ruling elites should use to control society.

In other words, the killer isn't a true-believing Tea Party member, he's a neoconservative wanna-be puppet-master who encourages and manipulates the Tea Party types.

Maybe he discovered he wasn't suited for behind-the-scenes work and chose a more direct outlet.
     
OAW  (op)
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Jul 25, 2011, 04:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
I dunno I think it easily can be racial motivated as much as religious in this case.
Indeed. Which is why I said "at least partly motivated by his religious orientation". The thing with extremists like this is that the various "motivations" get all blended together. The racial, the religious, the political all become a reflection of each other. Here we have a white, Christian, conservative whose very identify is rooted in an amalgamation of these three characteristics along with an extreme, militant, xenophobic worldview. Not unlike the KKK or Neo-Nazi groups or Christian Identity (e.g. Timothy McVeigh) militias in the US.

OAW
     
lpkmckenna
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Jul 25, 2011, 05:27 PM
 
So, what do the following terrorists have in common?
Anders Behring Breivik
Timothy McVeigh
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold
Jared Loughner

Give up? They all loved Ayn Rand. You know, she wrote books about noble heroes who blow things up. Not surprisingly, she loved the murderer William Hickman, so what go around comes around, I guess.

Of course, at this point ebuddy waltzes in and says that makes them part of the group of atheist mass murderers like Stalin, and not like Christians or right-wingers at all.
     
Doofy
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Jul 25, 2011, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Regarding the peculiar attitude towards Christianity the shooter has (he says he is a "cultural Christian," not someone who has "a personal relationship with Jesus"), I am struck by how close his ideas are to Leo Strauss, the godfather of Neoconservatives.

Like Strauss, he regards religion as a useful glue for pragmatic reasons, something that the ruling elites should use to control society.
So, just a generic Euro-nationalist then. Like yer average BNP member.
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ebuddy
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Jul 25, 2011, 08:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
It clearly gets in the way of progress when it tries to force schools to offer nonsense under the guise of science.
... like human "gill slits" perpetuated by ignorance of another kind?

Or when it sticks its nose into scientific research it doesn't like.
Or deny the merits of research it doesn't like? Again, try to find examples that do not apply equally to those of any worldview.

And why is it so difficult for you to admit that Christianity has been guilty of some terrible crimes.
Why is it necessary for you to connect these terrible crimes to religion when it is apparent that any philosophy/religion/worldview is capable of the worst aspects of human nature? Again, you have zero to go by in the subject of this thread as he has not invoked his god in his motives. You know he claims to be a Christian and in spite of all the other facts around this person assume, like others, that his religion must've been instrumental in his madness. This is based not on facts, but on your presuppositions of religion and religious people. The mistake as usual is an inability to discern correlative from causal.

You don't explicitly say it, but your posts in this thread very much take a tone of "Christians can do no wrong or if they do its not because they are christians." No-one is accusing you personally of being on the verge of picking up a gun and going on a killing spree.
I'm simply arguing against the opportunists who jump at scenarios like this to bolster their theophobia.
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Jul 25, 2011, 08:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
So, what do the following terrorists have in common?
Anders Behring Breivik
Timothy McVeigh
Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold
Jared Loughner

Give up? They all loved Ayn Rand. You know, she wrote books about noble heroes who blow things up. Not surprisingly, she loved the murderer William Hickman, so what go around comes around, I guess.

Of course, at this point ebuddy waltzes in and says that makes them part of the group of atheist mass murderers like Stalin, and not like Christians or right-wingers at all.
No, this is where ebuddy steps in to say that you're intolerant of contrarian speech and must resort to any new low you can find to silence it. While Ayn Rand enjoys a great deal of readership for better or worse; the ones to take up arms against innocent children still remain the overwhelming minority of them, suggesting perhaps something more at play than what mckenna must immediately compartmentalize for a simpleton online argument.

By the way, what's right-wing in Norway? Better yet, what's right-wing to you?
ebuddy
     
Doofy
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Jul 25, 2011, 08:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Again, you have zero to go by in the subject of this thread as he has not invoked his god in his motives. You know he claims to be a Christian and in spite of all the other facts around this person assume, like others, that his religion must've been instrumental in his madness. This is based not on facts, but on your presuppositions of religion and religious people. The mistake as usual is an inability to discern correlative from causal.
This be a truth. It's like saying that all old Adolf was evil because he had a moustache, therefore there's something wrong with people who have moustaches.
(OK, bad example, I know... ...since all moustache-wearers are actually evil).
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AKcrab
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Jul 25, 2011, 08:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
I don't believe this was motivated by his "Christianity" in the least as not only has he said nothing of his religion in connection to his distaste for immigration, but there is little if anything at all in the Christian text he could use to have committed the crime out of adherence.
From his "manifesto":
EXPLAINING TO GOD

On June 11 he says he prayed for the first time in a long time. "I explained to God that unless he wanted the Marxist-Islamist alliance and the certain Islamic takeover of Europe to completely annihilate European Christendom within the next hundred years, he must ensure that the warriors fighting for the preservation of European Christendom prevail."
I don't care if there is text he can use to "blame the bible". He clearly did this for Christendom. His own words.

Norway's mass killer pursuing anti-Islam crusade | Reuters
     
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Jul 25, 2011, 09:13 PM
 
I think the poll needs to be changed to:

1. Right-wing extremist
2. Christian extremist
3. Right-wing Christian extremist
4. Other
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Wiskedjak
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Jul 25, 2011, 10:04 PM
 
I don't think that Breivik's actions have anything to do with Christianity, but anyone who thinks that Islamic terrorists represent commonly held Muslim beliefs must also believe that Breivik represents commonly held Christian beliefs.
     
Doofy
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Jul 25, 2011, 10:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
I don't think that Breivik's actions have anything to do with Christianity, but anyone who thinks that Islamic terrorists represent commonly held Muslim beliefs must also believe that Breivik represents commonly held Christian beliefs.
Somewhat incorrect.
Christian violence = "off-book".
Islamic violence = "on-book".
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imitchellg5
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Jul 25, 2011, 11:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Somewhat incorrect.
Christian violence = "off-book".
Islamic violence = "on-book".
Christian violence = misinterpretation of the Bible.
Islamic violence = misinterpretation of the Qur'an.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 25, 2011, 11:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Somewhat incorrect.
Christian violence = "off-book".
Islamic violence = "on-book".
If that were even remotely true, the 2.2 billion Muslims would've killed the rest of us long ago.
     
Doofy
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Jul 26, 2011, 05:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by imitchellg5 View Post
Christian violence = misinterpretation of the Bible.
Islamic violence = misinterpretation of the Qur'an.
Right, so old Mo was misinterpreting the koran when he was carrying out all those attacks on mecca?

Military career of Muhammad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
If that were even remotely true, the 2.2 billion Muslims would've killed the rest of us long ago.
Like most Christians, most muslims are only toe-deep in their chosen (or, more usually, inherited) religion.
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Waragainstsleep
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Jul 26, 2011, 06:53 AM
 
I always got the impression that muslims were quite a lot more likely to be more 'in to' their religion than christians. If only because praying five times a day is more of a commitment than ticking the christian box on the government census.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ebuddy
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Jul 26, 2011, 07:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by AKcrab View Post
From his "manifesto":


I don't care if there is text he can use to "blame the bible". He clearly did this for Christendom. His own words.

Norway's mass killer pursuing anti-Islam crusade | Reuters
The Christian Bible teaches one how to pray and telling God your own will, then carrying it out is not necessarily what prayer is. Jesus did not die on the cross for Christianity, He died on the cross for all of mankind. There was absolutely zero reverence for God in any of his writings, yet admitting that this was the first time he prayed is evidence to you of Christian-devotion? In fact, the overwhelming majority population of Norway are members of the Church of Norway, majority claim a faith, and nearly half self-proclaimed Christian. Again, the problem here is an inability to separate correlative from causal.

It is quite clear with his use of "Christendom" that this is merely used as a link to his heritage; a heritage he felt was in peril.

We know his favorite TV show was Dexter and he loved to play World of Warcraft too. Are these equally to blame that they should be used as some profile of homicidal madness?
ebuddy
     
ebuddy
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Jul 26, 2011, 07:42 AM
 
What's most ironic to me is how quickly people absorb this scenario in the context of their own disposition toward a principle, in this case Christianity, then say; "See?!? They are the problem!" As if they can't see the intellectual folly that leads to violence.
( Last edited by ebuddy; Jul 26, 2011 at 08:18 AM. )
ebuddy
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 26, 2011, 08:06 AM
 
Its no quicker than your denials that christianity could be to blame. For anything. Ever.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Jul 26, 2011, 08:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
(OK, bad example, I know... ...since all moustache-wearers are actually totally awesome).
Fixed the only questionable statement made in this thread
Mankind's only chance is to harness the power of stupid.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 26, 2011, 09:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
What's most ironic to me is how quickly people absorb this scenario in the context of their own disposition toward a principle, in this case Christianity, then say; "See?!? They are the problem!" As if they can't see the intellectual folly that leads to violence.
No. You fail to get it. While some will be doing what you're describing, many of us are trying to point out the foolishness of those who look at an Islamic terrorist, absorb THAT scenario in the context of their own disposition toward a principle, point at Islam and then say "See?!? They are the problem!".

Read my post more carefully, without absorbing it into the context of your own disposition toward a principle:
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
I don't think that Breivik's actions have anything to do with Christianity,

but anyone who thinks that Islamic terrorists represent commonly held Muslim beliefs must also believe that Breivik represents commonly held Christian beliefs.
As Doofy pointed out, Christianity can be misinterpreted. What he *fails* to get (or doesn't want to get) is that, by the same token, Islam can *also* be misinterpreted.
( Last edited by Wiskedjak; Jul 26, 2011 at 09:17 AM. )
     
Doofy
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Jul 26, 2011, 09:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
As Doofy pointed out, Christianity can be misinterpreted. What he *fails* to get (or doesn't want to get) is that, by the same token, Islam can *also* be misinterpreted.
No, I'm not failing to get it at all.

Pure Christianity = peaceful.
Misinterpreted Christianity = sometimes violent.

Pure islam = violent.
Misinterpreted islam = peaceful.

Founder of Christianity = peaceful chap.
Founder of islam = a warlord.

I don't know how to make it any clearer.
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Doofy
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Jul 26, 2011, 09:34 AM
 
I find the following quite amusing:

Breivik: I'm doing this for Christendom.
Response: Aaaiiii!!! Christianity is violent and evil!!

Breivik: I'm not doing this alone.
Response: He's doing it alone.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Shaddim
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Jul 26, 2011, 09:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Fixed the only questionable statement made in this thread
Only if you're Tom Selleck or a 70s porn star.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jul 26, 2011, 10:21 AM
 
Misinterpretation [of reality] is a cornerstone of ALL religion.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
lpkmckenna
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Jul 26, 2011, 10:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Founder of Christianity = peaceful chap.
Did you miss the part when goes into the temple and attacks a bunch of people. With a whip.
     
Shaddim
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Jul 26, 2011, 10:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Did you miss the part when goes into the temple and attacks a bunch of people. With a whip.
Yes, he did, and if you were in my parents' home defiling it I'd likely do the same to you.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
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Jul 26, 2011, 11:28 AM
 
I dunno. There are several examples in the Bible where God massacred unbelievers.
     
 
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