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No Guns Allowed
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subego
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Feb 21, 2014, 08:08 PM
 
Just saw a sign to that effect on the window of my local cheese shop.

It's no mystery I'm on the "pro-gun" side of things, but I like to think I put in the effort to understand the other side. It's not hard for me to see why people are against the free flow of killing machines. I don't agree with that position, but I can certainly respect it.

So, I want to know if I'm out of order thinking that sign is a douchebag move made by a bunch of douchebags.

The only person that sign will affect is someone with a concealed carry license, which here in this state is really hard to get.

Why **** with this person. What did they do wrong, exactly? Can anyone seriously argue they're the problem?
     
reader50
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Feb 21, 2014, 11:54 PM
 
Translation of the sign, as read by passing burgler: "This shop is gun-free. Hold me up any time."

They'll probably remove the sign after their first hold-up. Someone will get away with all their dough ... er, cheese. Might have to wait awhile for that magic first holdup.
     
el chupacabra
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Feb 22, 2014, 12:50 AM
 
In Texas I've never been to a business in the city that didn't have one of those signs (other than gun stores of course). Lots of people illegally conceal and carry into these stores anyway. I believe it's just to protect the stores right to press charges if anything goes wrong. We have shoot outs in places every now and then but I can't think of any circumstance where people got in trouble who were on the right side. In other words criminals come into stores with guns and try to rob store or customers. Customers pull their guns and shoot criminals; no charges filed against anyone except any surviving robbers. Maybe it's something similar to that with the cheese shop...maybe they had an issue with a customer continually bringing a gun in and it made them uncomfortable.
the largest problem for Americans today is they eat too much food and dont have enough work to do to keep their heart healthy
     
Shaddim
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Feb 22, 2014, 01:08 AM
 
Yup, I'm sure criminals will honor his request, since they're so reasonable and all. Right?

Our local mall and theater took their "No Firearms" signs down, now they say "Weapons by Permit Only", because they realized that the only people who would abide by the former were folks they weren't worried about to begin with.
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Ω
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Feb 22, 2014, 03:29 AM
 
It is a cheese shop. If the local armed crims are targeting cheese shops then you have bigger problems.
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BadKosh
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Feb 22, 2014, 07:59 AM
 
Were they all out of cheese?
     
Shaddim
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Feb 22, 2014, 12:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Ω View Post
It is a cheese shop. If the local armed crims are targeting cheese shops then you have bigger problems.
They robbed a fudge shop here, at knifepoint, last week. Obviously, if you sell cheese or fudge, you should be packing.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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subego  (op)
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Feb 22, 2014, 05:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Were they all out of cheese?
This redistribution of cheese is a lot more complicated than I thought.
     
mattyb
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Feb 22, 2014, 05:58 PM
 
For a nano-second I thought that you had written about the Arizona law that allowed shops to put No Gays Allowed signs up.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 22, 2014, 06:07 PM
 
No gays allowed starts at cheese shops. Antique stores are next.

You gotta hit 'em where they live.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 22, 2014, 06:42 PM
 
Everybody on the ground! Stay down, or I'll make you Swiss cheese!
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 22, 2014, 06:44 PM
 
The thing is, as if people who go to snobby cheese shops still use cash.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 22, 2014, 07:46 PM
 
@el chup

You didn't solicit this, so I apologize if it comes off as a dick move.

I like your sig, but feel it would carry more punch if it read:

At the cost of disaster, humanity's victory...

The comma I put in there could go either way. I tend towards too many commas.
     
BadKosh
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Feb 23, 2014, 08:37 AM
 
I was thinking Monty Python. Jeez. Kids.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 23, 2014, 03:30 PM
 
So was I.
     
OldManMac
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Feb 23, 2014, 10:04 PM
 
The only place I go regularly that is posted as a gun-free zone is my mother's assisted living facility (maybe they don't want those old folks killing each other). MI is a shall issue state, and there aren't many places one can't go into with a weapon.
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Shaddim
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Feb 24, 2014, 07:13 AM
 
Piers Morgan finally sacked. Ahh, my day is looking up, already.
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OldManMac
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Feb 24, 2014, 07:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Piers Morgan finally sacked. Ahh, my day is looking up, already.
+1
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Paco500
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Feb 24, 2014, 10:43 AM
 
A friend of mine owns a cheese shop in a village close by- I'm probably in there once every few months. So far, I've not been armed and it's worked out.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 24, 2014, 11:33 AM
 
I'm not sure I see what's thread worthy here, though obviously I am in the minority.

Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Translation of the sign, as read by passing burgler: "This shop is gun-free. Hold me up any time."
The customers are theoretically gun-free. The sign makes no promises about the owner.
     
Shaddim
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Feb 24, 2014, 11:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The customers are theoretically gun-free. The sign makes no promises about the owner.
Well, gouda luck to them.
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Mrjinglesusa
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Feb 24, 2014, 12:01 PM
 
The way I look at it, concealed means concealed. All they can do, even with a sign up, is ask you to leave if they somehow see your gun. If you refuse to leave, it's misdemeanor trespassing, NOT a gun violation. These signs are complete BS and do nothing to prevent people from legally carrying a concealed weapon in the store.
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Shaddim
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Feb 24, 2014, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
The way I look at it, concealed means concealed. All they can do, even with a sign up, is ask you to leave if they somehow see your gun. If you refuse to leave, it's misdemeanor trespassing, NOT a gun violation. These signs are complete BS and do nothing to prevent people from legally carrying a concealed weapon in the store.
I've been asked to leave select places after a manager or owner sees that I'm carrying, even though I have a badge, so I do and never go back.
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The Final Dakar
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Feb 24, 2014, 12:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
These signs are complete BS and do nothing to prevent people from legally carrying a concealed weapon in the store.
Theaters have signs that do nothing to prevent people from smuggling outside drinks and snacks in either.

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
All they can do, even with a sign up, is ask you to leave if they somehow see your gun.
Which strikes me as entirely the point. So people don't act 'surprised'.



Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
I've been asked to leave select places after a manager or owner sees that I'm carrying, even though I have a badge, so I do and never go back.
I feel like if this was a different topic I'd understand your state of mind, but I'm at a loss. You don't like guns, so **** your business?
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 24, 2014, 03:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm not sure I see what's thread worthy here, though obviously I am in the minority.
There's a "low jab" thread for that.
     
Snow-i
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Feb 24, 2014, 04:18 PM
 
I understand the rationale for not allowing political "speech" at a polling place, and mostly agree with it.

As a strictly academic question, do you think that these laws are at odds with the First Amendment?

I personally am of the mindset that allowing political speech at the polling place should be illegal - it just ensures a fair unintimidating environment for everyone. But i'd love to hear your perspectives.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 24, 2014, 04:42 PM
 
I think whether there's a true FA issue depends on the details.

Here, the "clear" distance isn't that far, 50 feet or so.

If you can yell your slogans without amplification and it's going to make it to the front door of the polling place, I don't think free speech is being impacted. If it was 50 yards, then we have a problem. Not the least of which being a clear zone which covers private residences.
     
finboy
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Feb 24, 2014, 04:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Well, gouda luck to them.
Baaaaahahahaha.
     
Mrjinglesusa
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Feb 24, 2014, 05:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I feel like if this was a different topic I'd understand your state of mind, but I'm at a loss. You don't like guns, so **** your business?
That's exactly it. I will not support a business with my money if they don't support my constitutional right to carry a firearm for my personal protection. If more gun advocates took this stance there would be fewer places putting up these ridiculous signs. If/when they see those signs hurt their business they will take them down. They are not doing it out some personal conviction - they are doing it because they are betting more people are against guns than for them (and out of some ridiculous notion that they somehow prevent gun violence and a criminal will heed the sign).

In that regard, I urge everyone to note that almost every mass shooting in recent memory occurred at a place where guns were banned - schools, malls, movie theaters, etc. It's almost like the criminal KNEW there wouldn't be any armed resistance in these places.
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subego  (op)
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Feb 24, 2014, 05:13 PM
 
I certainly feel I can't patronize this shop (despite the quality of their wares) without questioning the sign. If a proprietor is going to set things up where I need to get into a debate for my cheese, I'll probably just go to the other cheese shops.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 24, 2014, 05:21 PM
 
I just looked up the law this sign was posted under. Unless I read it wrong, specifically targets people with concealed carry licenses. I don't even know what there is to discuss with these people then.
     
The Final Dakar
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Feb 24, 2014, 05:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
That's exactly it. I will not support a business with my money if they don't support my constitutional right to carry a firearm for my personal protection.
As far as you know they don't support your right to carry in their business. This legal, right? I don't see the difference between that and not allowing pamphlets to be distributed on their property being an attack on your first amendment rights.

Now, if they're politically active in trying to pass gun restrictions you don't support, I can understand imposing a boycott, but I suspect their anti-4th stances are being more inferred than confirmed.


Originally Posted by subego View Post
I just looked up the law this sign was posted under. Unless I read it wrong, specifically targets people with concealed carry licenses. I don't even know what there is to discuss with these people then.
What would be the point of the sign if it didn't apply to conceal carry?

Also, for reference, where do people who conceal carry put the firearm? My lack of knowledge makes me think of the movies where some guy has it tucked behind his back. I would think a holster is visible, unless, perhaps, its really cold and the person has a large jacket. Is it easy to conceal during the summer?

Edit: Depending on the setting, I could see such a request being made for the comfort of other customers. And yes, I realize some of you would be comfortable knowing someone is packing.
     
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Feb 24, 2014, 05:47 PM
 
Perhaps these businesses don't want to be exposed to the liability issues that would ensue if someone with a concealed weapon decided to open fire ... justifiably or not ... in their establishment? Somehow I think these businesses are more concerned with practical, "dollars and cents" issues of that nature than with abstract "constitutionality" issues. It's the same reason why company policies exist forbidding convenience store workers or bank tellers from resisting when someone decides to stick up the joint.

OAW
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 24, 2014, 05:51 PM
 
I could imagine other scenarios where it could not apply to CC. Liability shit can cause people to do things which make no sense whatsoever. Edit: scooped by OAW.

When it comes to the actual concealed firearm in warmer weather, one usually chooses something, well... concealable. The iconic example is James Bond, with his Walther PPK. That's a tiny little ****er. Put it in an ankle holster, or there are holsters which go inside your pants. That can get covered by an untucked shirt.

Ironically, the silhouette in the sign is a Beretta 92, which is giant.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 24, 2014, 05:59 PM
 


Lots of people equate James Bond with guns, but forget he isn't exactly carrying a hand-cannon.

Which of course makes sense. He's a spy, not special forces. He does such crazy shit though, the lines get blurred, and you often come away thinking he should carry a hand-cannon.
     
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Feb 24, 2014, 06:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa View Post
The way I look at it, concealed means concealed. All they can do, even with a sign up, is ask you to leave if they somehow see your gun. If you refuse to leave, it's misdemeanor trespassing, NOT a gun violation. These signs are complete BS and do nothing to prevent people from legally carrying a concealed weapon in the store.
I don't understand this rationale at all: you're on someone else's property, so you have to abide by their rules. If for whatever (dumb or sophisticated) reason I don't want guns on my premises, how can you think you are entitled to override that?

If you don't like it, don't frequent the store. But don't break the law by consciously ignoring the rights of others.
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subego  (op)
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Feb 24, 2014, 06:20 PM
 
I looked at the law. You're violating the terms of your CC license. I imagine your license won't give you legal protection against gun violations while in the midst of actively breaking the terms.
     
el chupacabra
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Feb 25, 2014, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@el chup
....I like your sig, but feel it would carry more punch if it read:....
That's how it read when I pulled it from a magazine I don't remember which had no author citation. Anyway fixed.

We don't know whether these businesses are trying to make a political statement or not. Imagine you're a business owner who has no interest in learning to use guns, you spend all your time on other hobbies, in which case you tend to avoid situations where you might be forced to use guns for defense. One day you see a gun flash with the swing of a jacket. Maybe they look shady, maybe they a criminal with a conceal carry permit, maybe they're law abiding. If you're in a city where conceal and carry isn't common you can't count on your fellow customers to save you if he draws on your store. Do you just assume he's law abiding and hope for the best, or call the cops just to report someone's entered with a gun and might rob, or do you just stand there in fear waiting to see what happens, knowing that whether criminal or not someone you don't know has the authority over the lives of people in the vicinity.

So next time you put a sign up that says no guns, the law abiding c's should have left theirs in the car. Now if it happens again you call the cops right away hoping to prevent a burglary. This might not be logical depending on how you look at it, but it's the method of resolution this business owner has chosen to take. I'm against government hindering our arms rights. But small shop owners should have the right to restrictions on their property. I don't know how things are in Chicago; where I live we already know most the people carrying are law abiding. Maybe this person was robbed in the past because they prejudged someone they saw carrying as being innocent.
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subego  (op)
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Feb 25, 2014, 05:23 PM
 
I must clarify: I don't question their right, I question the reasoning.

Likewise, the scenario you present is totally plausible.

OTOH, I'd put money on the cheese shop thinking it's about "sending a message".
     
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Feb 25, 2014, 05:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I must clarify: I don't question their right, I question the reasoning. [...] OTOH, I'd put money on the cheese shop thinking it's about "sending a message".
But that's just a complaint on your part that the owner of the cheese shop has a different opinion on guns than you do and is vocal about it, right?
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subego  (op)
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Feb 25, 2014, 05:46 PM
 
I'm not sure I understand the question. How wouldn't it be?
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 25, 2014, 06:52 PM
 
Okay, I think I understand the question. I'll retract my last post.

As I said in the OP, I don't have a problem with people who have different opinions on guns than I do. They are killing machines. That point isn't lost on me.

OTOH, people who have dual* licenses for their firearms aren't the problem. If someone has the opinion they are the problem, they're factually incorrect.


*In Illinois, to legally exercise your constitutional right own a firearm, you need to register with the State Police, have them do a background check on you, and pay them. Then you can jump through all the hoops to get a CC license.
     
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Feb 25, 2014, 08:04 PM
 
A person's business is their castle, much like the home. They set the rules (within the law, of course). I believe in this concept and I believe as strongly in someone's right to possess firearms in their place of business as I do to forbid them.

With that said, I myself posted a thread about a year ago in the main lounge about my first rifle purchase (prompted by MD law change). I have a ton of fun at the range with it and with a bunch of my friends who are experienced shooters (ex-marine, police, hunter, etc). I often go with other friends of mine who aren't experienced at all for them to be around them in a safe environment while enjoying the experience as much as anyone. Some of my friends on the other hand just have absolutely no interest in being around guns for any reason. Not that they have a problem with anyone else doing it on their own time and safely - they just don't want them to be any part of their lives if they can help it. I totally understand and respect that.

Just my .02
     
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Feb 25, 2014, 08:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Okay, I think I understand the question. I'll retract my last post.

As I said in the OP, I don't have a problem with people who have different opinions on guns than I do. They are killing machines. That point isn't lost on me.

OTOH, people who have dual* licenses for their firearms aren't the problem. If someone has the opinion they are the problem, they're factually incorrect.


*In Illinois, to legally exercise your constitutional right own a firearm, you need to register with the State Police, have them do a background check on you, and pay them. Then you can jump through all the hoops to get a CC license.
Maryland just became the same way, and outlawed "assault weapons" (ooohh, it looks scary!) and go a step further to fingerprint you for handguns and "other regulated weapons." 10 rd mag limit (I'm grandfathered at 30). Pretty much any semi auto rifle platform with the exception of .22 rimfire are now banned.

I was lucky and only had to wait 15 weeks to be able to take my rifle home from the gun store, and that's only because the gun store gave up on my state background check (the police were overwhelmed because of the law change) and used the 7-day rule to release it to me.
     
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Feb 25, 2014, 08:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
A person's business is their castle, much like the home. They set the rules (within the law, of course). I believe in this concept and I believe as strongly in someone's right to possess firearms in their place of business as I do to forbid them.


OAW
     
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Feb 26, 2014, 11:08 AM
 
Why even LIVE in Maryland then? Flush tax? Rain Tax? I can't wait until both the drunks AND potheads are driving all over the roads in MD.
     
Snow-i
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Feb 26, 2014, 11:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Why even LIVE in Maryland then? Flush tax? Rain Tax? I can't wait until both the drunks AND potheads are driving all over the roads in MD.
Good Question BadKosh.

But I grew up here, as much as I hate the politics of this place it's still home.
     
subego  (op)
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Feb 26, 2014, 08:09 PM
 
Yeah. I like the physical place Maryland very much.
     
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Feb 26, 2014, 10:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Also, for reference, where do people who conceal carry put the firearm?
I carry in my front pocket. I usually carry either a Kahr CM9 or a Ruger LCP, both of which I have a pocket holster for.
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Feb 27, 2014, 05:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Just saw a sign to that effect on the window of my local cheese shop.

It's no mystery I'm on the "pro-gun" side of things, but I like to think I put in the effort to understand the other side. It's not hard for me to see why people are against the free flow of killing machines. I don't agree with that position, but I can certainly respect it.

So, I want to know if I'm out of order thinking that sign is a douchebag move made by a bunch of douchebags.

The only person that sign will affect is someone with a concealed carry license, which here in this state is really hard to get.

Why **** with this person. What did they do wrong, exactly? Can anyone seriously argue they're the problem?

I think they are a problem, in a way.

I think that a society where we are significantly afraid of our neighbors will have a number of problems. It is naive to assume complete safety and that our neighbors are immune to violence and various dangerous conduct that puts others at risk, but there is a difference between keeping one's eyes open and being alert vs. being downright paranoid and fearful.

The guns feed and perpetuate this problem, but I don't think the solution is to take them away, and there are certainly many legitimate reasons for one to own a gun for self-defense that are not driven by fear and paranoia. The solution is to get at the origins of this fear and paranoia, but I don't really know how to do that. Maybe sensible drug laws would be a good start?
     
 
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