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Trapped like mice
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Salah al-Din
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Jan 25, 2005, 06:45 AM
 
Seems the conspiracy doesn't end

Here is the original post(the forum ate the original).


Trapped Like Mice

The sad truth about living in Palestine
     
Splinter
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Jan 25, 2005, 06:33 PM
 
On the ground the Apartheid Wall, with its horrendous effects on Palestinian life and land,
OH HOW SAD!!! Omg










Yes that was sarcasm. That wall saves lives. How many suicide bombers have gotten past the parts where the wall is up? 0 how many have tried? More then was counted. How many lives were saved? Hundreds. So pardon me if I donít give a $hit if someone has to "inconvenience themselves and wait a while to go through a checkpoint.

Oh did it cut off parts of their land and crop? Well what your lovely informative unbiased news site refused to mention was the hundreds of thousands of full grown olive trees were replanted on their side of the wall as compensation in addition they are being given the money that would have come in by their crop of the next 5 years.

So as Justin (fag) Timberlake said "CRY ME A RIVER!"

And fu<k ANYONE who would put the "convenience" of one innocent person over the life of another innocent person.

I cant even be bothered to read the rest of that article after the load of $hit that they spouted.
What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth. Yiddish proverb
     
Taliesin
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Jan 26, 2005, 04:36 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
OH HOW SAD!!! Omg










Yes that was sarcasm. That wall saves lives. How many suicide bombers have gotten past the parts where the wall is up? 0 how many have tried? More then was counted. How many lives were saved? Hundreds. So pardon me if I donít give a $hit if someone has to "inconvenience themselves and wait a while to go through a checkpoint.

Oh did it cut off parts of their land and crop? Well what your lovely informative unbiased news site refused to mention was the hundreds of thousands of full grown olive trees were replanted on their side of the wall as compensation in addition they are being given the money that would have come in by their crop of the next 5 years.

So as Justin (fag) Timberlake said "CRY ME A RIVER!"

And fu<k ANYONE who would put the "convenience" of one innocent person over the life of another innocent person.

I cant even be bothered to read the rest of that article after the load of $hit that they spouted.
Just stupid, if Israel wants a wall to protect itself from retaliations, then it should have built one on israeli soil.

Besides the best way to protect itself from retaliation is to stop killing palestinian civilians, to stop to expropriate palestinians, to call back its settlers and to make genuine peace with palestinians and to stop occupation.

In order though to protect Israel from shortterm palestinian violence that is used for retaliation of israeli violence that Israel has already forgotten about, it still can have its wall but on israeli soil!

Taliesin
     
Splinter
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Jan 26, 2005, 04:57 AM
 
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Just stupid, if Israel wants a wall to protect itself from retaliations, then it should have built one on israeli soil.

Besides the best way to protect itself from retaliation is to stop killing palestinian civilians, to stop to expropriate palestinians, to call back its settlers and to make genuine peace with palestinians and to stop occupation.

In order though to protect Israel from shortterm palestinian violence that is used for retaliation of israeli violence that Israel has already forgotten about, it still can have its wall but on israeli soil!

Taliesin
We have already been over this Tal.

The reason it was not built on our terriotry was 2 fold.

1. its a punishment (really I have no basis for that statement but hey it sound like something that would be considered)
2. If we built it along our borders we would be leaving thousands of settlers to die. And they WOULD die.

So they built it along that route for a strategic advantage so that we can cover the settlers assess while they are evicted. I may not agree with them being evicted but you cant seriously expect us to build a wall with them on the outside to get murdered. Again youíre putting the convenience of one people over the lives of another and I despise that.
What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth. Yiddish proverb
     
Taliesin
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Jan 26, 2005, 06:48 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
We have already been over this Tal.

The reason it was not built on our terriotry was 2 fold.

1. its a punishment (really I have no basis for that statement but hey it sound like something that would be considered)
2. If we built it along our borders we would be leaving thousands of settlers to die. And they WOULD die.

So they built it along that route for a strategic advantage so that we can cover the settlers assess while they are evicted. I may not agree with them being evicted but you cant seriously expect us to build a wall with them on the outside to get murdered. Again youíre putting the convenience of one people over the lives of another and I despise that.
Indeed we have been over this before but since you and others seem ignorant of the fact that it is a landgrab as made explicitly clear by the israeli government with its new initiative to expropriate palestinians from their land in East-jerusalem as described in the link I provided in one of my other threads: http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=242875 , it must be reiterated:

For Israel's protection a wall can be useful in the shortterm while at the same time making genuine peace with the palestinians, calling back its settlers and stopping occupation and expansion, but the wall has to be built on israeli soil, anything other is a clear breach of international law. If Israel is worried about settlers in occupied areas, Israel should have never sent them there and should immediately start to bring them back into Israel and not just the 8,000 in Gaza but also the 200,000+ in the Westbank.

Taliesin
     
eklipse
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Jan 26, 2005, 08:50 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
2. If we built it along our borders we would be leaving thousands of settlers to die. And they WOULD die.
Yeah, well that's an occupational hazard when one illegally settles on someone else's land.
     
Salah al-Din  (op)
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Jan 26, 2005, 08:57 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
1. its a punishment (really I have no basis for that statement but hey it sound like something that would be considered)
2. If we built it along our borders we would be leaving thousands of settlers to die. And they WOULD die.
1. Collective punishment is illegal.
2. No one forced the Israelis to export their people to Palestine, and no one forced them to continue to expand the colonies. And I'm sorry if I don't show much support for illegal colonialists and their lives.
     
BoomStick
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Jan 26, 2005, 09:06 AM
 
Well it's finally out.

You support the murder of Jews.

There would be no wall if they weren't sending exploding murderers across the border.
Period.
     
Salah al-Din  (op)
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Jan 26, 2005, 09:38 AM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
Well it's finally out.

You support the murder of Jews.

There would be no wall if they weren't sending exploding murderers across the border.
Period.
Did I say that?

Try this.

Ask me if I show any support for the suicide bombers. Try that.
     
demograph68
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Jan 26, 2005, 09:52 AM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
Well it's finally out.

You support the murder of Jews.

There would be no wall if they weren't sending exploding murderers across the border.
Period.
Wow, you're good. Did you figure that out all by yourself? Yes? Well good for you. You must be a true idiot then. Bravo.
     
Nicko
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Jan 26, 2005, 10:09 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
We have already been over this Tal.

The reason it was not built on our terriotry was 2 fold.

1. its a punishment (really I have no basis for that statement but hey it sound like something that would be considered)
2. If we built it along our borders we would be leaving thousands of settlers to die. And they WOULD die.

So they built it along that route for a strategic advantage so that we can cover the settlers assess while they are evicted. I may not agree with them being evicted but you cant seriously expect us to build a wall with them on the outside to get murdered. Again youíre putting the convenience of one people over the lives of another and I despise that.
... but what happens in 20-30 years when the Palestinian population greatly surpasses the Israeli one? A wealthy minority oppressing the majority, it will be apartheid (and you know what happened to apartheid in S.Africa). See thats the thing, the Palestinians can afford to suffer another few decades if it means that they will have a country, I don't think Israel will be so lucky in the long run. Perhaps they should start preaching the tenants of multiculturalism?
     
Salah al-Din  (op)
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Jan 26, 2005, 10:15 AM
 
I just want to point out that I have no sympathy for war criminals. That is why I said what I said above.

4th Geneva Convention art. 49:

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.
     
BoomStick
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Jan 26, 2005, 10:48 AM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
And I'm sorry if I don't show much support for illegal colonialists and their lives.
Hi Pot, I'm Kettle.
     
MacGorilla
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Jan 26, 2005, 11:14 AM
 
That wall won't save lives; it may stop the casual bomber but it wont stop the determined. Look, we had oceans surronding us and some fanatic from Afghanistan managed to attack us.
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Splinter
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Jan 26, 2005, 06:48 PM
 
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Indeed we have been over this before but since you and others seem ignorant of the fact that it is a landgrab as made explicitly clear by the israeli government with its new initiative to expropriate palestinians from their land in East-jerusalem as described in the link I provided in one of my other threads: http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=242875 , it must be reiterated:
One question. If it was a land grab and we really didnít give a flying fu<k about the Palestinians then why bother providing them with compensation and replanting entire crops for them? No one in the international community noticed it anyway so it wasnít a publicity stunt. Why then? I think you are mistaking what some people are trying to do with the law and others are trying to do with the wall. 2 sides to every coin... just like every Muslim isnít a terrorist and just like not all Israelis are trying to grab land, which is why the law is being fought.

Originally posted by Taliesin:
For Israel's protection a wall can be useful in the shortterm while at the same time making genuine peace with the palestinians, calling back its settlers and stopping occupation and expansion, but the wall has to be built on israeli soil, anything other is a clear breach of international law. If Israel is worried about settlers in occupied areas, Israel should have never sent them there and should immediately start to bring them back into Israel and not just the 8,000 in Gaza but also the 200,000+ in the Westbank.

Taliesin
OK you are not L-I-S-T-E-N-I-N-G or you really value the "comfort" of some people over the lives of others in which case you know what I say to you.

But Iíll give you another chance. 1. Bringing back the settlers will require huge resources and manpower to forcefully evict 200,000 people is no easy thing for now we are working on the Gaza strip because the barrier is already completed there and not a single suicide bomber has gotten through form Gaza since. Now that the people are safe save from a few rockets they are being evacuated. Give it a chance dude before you go calling it a pure land grab. Look what happened in the Gaza strip.

Originally posted by eklipse:
Yeah, well that's an occupational hazard when one illegally settles on someone else's land.
And fu<k ANYONE who would put the "convenience" of one innocent person over the life of another innocent person.
]

I despise you.

Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
1. Collective punishment is illegal.
2. No one forced the Israelis to export their people to Palestine, and no one forced them to continue to expand the colonies. And I'm sorry if I don't show much support for illegal colonialists and their lives.
If it were collective punishment then the compensations would have been a waste now wouldnít they.

Yeah no one forced them... 5 wars later and a 6th in progress... no one forced them to take over that land! You are so right. And I'm sure the good countries that attacked us would have given the land back to us as they sprinkled our ashes over the Mediterranean riiight

Do you have a name for the little dream world you live in?

Oh yeah
And fu<k ANYONE who would put the "convenience" of one innocent person over the life of another innocent person.
]

I despise you too. EVERY INNOCENT LIFE ON THIS PLANET IS PRECIOUS! Is Allah too stuck up to teach that to his followers? Or are you just a bad little Muslim?

Originally posted by Nicko:
... but what happens in 20-30 years when the Palestinian population greatly surpasses the Israeli one? A wealthy minority oppressing the majority, it will be apartheid (and you know what happened to apartheid in S.Africa). See thats the thing, the Palestinians can afford to suffer another few decades if it means that they will have a country, I don't think Israel will be so lucky in the long run. Perhaps they should start preaching the tenants of multiculturalism?
Thatís the point... If the actual statistics of the "wall" and stuff were posted you would see itís a temporary thing...

Ok who here knew
1. Less then five percent of the "wall" is a "wall" Itís mostly motion sensitive fence with barbed wire. The wall parts are put up in areas with a high risk of gunfire.
2. The barrier and all aspects thereof are portable reposition able quite easily and has been done with the barrier like it along the Lebanese border... it has been done in fact 17 times (IIRC)

So in 20-30 years the wall will be long gone are at least back on the borders.

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
That wall won't save lives; it may stop the casual bomber but it wont stop the determined. Look, we had oceans surronding us and some fanatic from Afghanistan managed to attack us.
1. That Afghan man was rich. None of the terrorists here really are.
2. American security was piss poor then. (Even now they donít take as many precautions as they do here.)
What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth. Yiddish proverb
     
eklipse
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Jan 27, 2005, 06:21 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
I despise you.
Coming from you, I shall take that as a compliment.
     
Salah al-Din  (op)
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Jan 27, 2005, 06:39 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
I despise you too. EVERY INNOCENT LIFE ON THIS PLANET IS PRECIOUS! Is Allah too stuck up to teach that to his followers? Or are you just a bad little Muslim?
I'll take that as a compliment.

and

Are you a good little Jew?

(does that sound a bit racist to you? if so perhaps you should edit your post above)
     
Taliesin
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Jan 27, 2005, 06:43 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
One question. If it was a land grab and we really didnít give a flying fu<k about the Palestinians then why bother providing them with compensation and replanting entire crops for them? No one in the international community noticed it anyway so it wasnít a publicity stunt. Why then? I think you are mistaking what some people are trying to do with the law and others are trying to do with the wall. 2 sides to every coin... just like every Muslim isnít a terrorist and just like not all Israelis are trying to grab land, which is why the law is being fought.
First I want to state that I don't think that all Israelis want to grab palestinian land, most Israelis, except the settler-movement and the zionists that form most of the political force in Israel, just want to live securely and peacefully in their country. But nonetheless the israeli government is working another agenda that is partly identical to the agenda of the settler-movement, not surprisingly as Sharon himself has supported the settler-movement as much as he could and under his watch led more settlers into the westbank and East-Jerusalem and helped them with the israeli army more than any israeli politician before him.

You are obviously confused by Sharon's activities that seemingly counter that agenda, like the Gaza-pullout or the compensations for palestinians and the replanting of crops, etc..., aren't you?

The idea behind that is that Gaza doesn't mean anything to Israel because there is only little water and is mostly just a desert, that's why there are only 8,000 settlers in the first place. The real ambition of Sharon is to gain as much of the Westbank as possible as that is a fruitful ground with enough water.

But Sharon can't just annex the Westbank, because there are a lot of palestinians that he would have to give the israeli nationality and democratic rights, which he doesn't want, because it could change the jewish character of Israel, when muslims count as many or in the future, thanks to a faster reproduction-rate, even more than the jewish citizens.

The solution in Sharon's eye is then the wall and the driving out of palestinians and expropriations of land in the Westbank. But there are five elements that he has to calculate in, first the islamic israelis, then the international public/media, then the US-government, that supports Israel with 3 billion dollars a year and many other benifits of military and diplomatic nature, then the peace-movement in Israel and lastly the arabic world/street:

Therefore the israeli government pays compensations which equal the amount of money five years of harvests can achieve, and replant the crops as a thin human skin on an illegal act. What is money for five years of harvests, land can nurture its owners and its children for centuries and can be inherited and can be used in numerous different forms, that's like someone entering your home and forcing you to leave it and to live from now on on the street. You will say: "Hey, this is my home.", the other just says:"Ok, I will pay you a rent for five years and I will see that you get your furniture back, now get off my ground or I will shoot you".





Originally posted by Splinter:
1. Bringing back the settlers will require huge resources and manpower to forcefully evict 200,000 people is no easy thing for now
It's not as difficult as you might think, most of the settlers are highly dependent on Israel's support and most of them work everyday in Israel, most of them just go into their settlements to sleep there. Israel just would have to stop all benifits and support for settlers and you would see how quickly they would return to Israel.


Originally posted by Splinter:
we are working on the Gaza strip because the barrier is already completed there and not a single suicide bomber has gotten through form Gaza since. Now that the people are safe save from a few rockets they are being evacuated. Give it a chance dude before you go calling it a pure land grab. Look what happened in the Gaza strip.
Now that borders on pure comedy, you mean the settlers in Gaza will be evacuated because the wall is completed there? Off course but that isn't comparable to the Westbank in which the wall cuts right through the Westbank in order to include as many settlements as possible, so no evacuation there planned. Quite to the contrary it is already published that Sharon's government used the Gaza-pullout as a PR-stunt in order to be able to keep as much of the Westbank as possible.

Originally posted by Splinter:

So in 20-30 years the wall will be long gone are at least back on the borders.
Not according to Sharon's plan, the wall is necessary not because of the temporary suicide-bombers (that is just PR-fodder for the masses), but in order to keep the settlements in the Westbank, while keeping the rapidly reproducing palestinians out of Israel and if possible, as a sort of bonus, to prevent the creation of a contigous palestinian state in the Westbank.

Taliesin
     
Chuckit
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Jan 27, 2005, 06:48 AM
 
Originally posted by eklipse:
Coming from you, I shall take that as a compliment.
Yeah, it's awesome to be despised by the merciful.

No, seriously, the whole situation with Israel and Palestine is unquestionably a huge mess. To single out these settlers and say, "Them ó let's throw away their lives," sounds unbelievably callous. I'm really baffled at how anyone can be gleefully opposed to the idea that nobody's convenience is worth another person's life.
Chuck
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"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
eklipse
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Jan 27, 2005, 07:12 AM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
Yeah, it's awesome to be despised by the merciful.
I'm sorry, which part of acknowledging and excusing two serious breaches of international law makes one "merciful"?
     
Salah al-Din  (op)
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Jan 27, 2005, 07:16 AM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
To single out these settlers and say, "Them ó let's throw away their lives," sounds unbelievably callous.
I'm sorry but I have no sympathy with war criminals. Be they Milosevic, Hitler, any low life soldier who follows orders blindly or the "innocent" colonialist stealing land and resulting in the deaths of truly innocent people.

Maybe you want to excuse them and be merciful but I never will.
     
BoomStick
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Jan 27, 2005, 09:29 AM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:

Maybe you want to excuse them and be merciful but I never will.
Then hate will consume you.

Have fun.
     
demograph68
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Jan 27, 2005, 10:14 AM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
I'm sorry but I have no sympathy with war criminals. Be they Milosevic, Hitler, any low life soldier who follows orders blindly or the "innocent" colonialist stealing land and resulting in the deaths of truly innocent people.

Maybe you want to excuse them and be merciful but I never will.
It's like the american pioneers who went west onto Indian land, aware of the dangers of doing so. Guess what happened later...
     
Splinter
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Jan 27, 2005, 08:38 PM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
I'll take that as a compliment.

and

Are you a good little Jew?

(does that sound a bit racist to you? if so perhaps you should edit your post above)
I'm sorry... do you have me mistaken with someone else? I donít believe in Judaism.

It doesnít sound racist... If I followed Judaism and the torah teaches me one thing then I claim something else... well then I would be a bad little Jew.

I think you need to read it more carefully. As your friend here Tal knows, your Koran teaches you that taking the life of innocent people is a sin.

So not only are you going against human nature common decency and ethics. But you are a hypocrite of your own religion and for that I despise you and so should all Muslims for displaying that religion in a bad light by your own perverse words.


Originally posted by Taliesin:
The idea behind that is that Gaza doesn't mean anything to Israel because there is only little water and is mostly just a desert, that's why there are only 8,000 settlers in the first place. The real ambition of Sharon is to gain as much of the Westbank as possible as that is a fruitful ground with enough water.
Thatís the thing... It was a desert until the settlers got there to what the nearby Arab inhabitants called a cursed land. They came and they used the knowledge they had gained in Europe to irrigate the land and make it blossom. And they have and the Arabs called them blessed and came by the thousands to come get jobs and to live near the good land. It is currently a world leader in producing the technologies for cultivation irrigation and all aspects of that. The loss of the crops from there alone will be felt tremendously not just in Israel but also hundreds of importing countries around the globe.

Gaza is not "nothing"

Originally posted by Taliesin:
It's not as difficult as you might think, most of the settlers are highly dependent on Israel's support and most of them work everyday in Israel, most of them just go into their settlements to sleep there. Israel just would have to stop all benifits and support for settlers and you would see how quickly they would return to Israel.
That would be civil war... you think the rallies are big now against abandoning gush katif... the government would be overthrown within a short time if that law was passed... not that it ever would be.

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Now that borders on pure comedy, you mean the settlers in Gaza will be evacuated because the wall is completed there? Off course but that isn't comparable to the Westbank in which the wall cuts right through the Westbank in order to include as many settlements as possible, so no evacuation there planned. Quite to the contrary it is already published that Sharon's government used the Gaza-pullout as a PR-stunt in order to be able to keep as much of the Westbank as possible.
Well of course it includes as many settlements as possible... the reason for building it there is so that the settlers are on the other side of the wall so the evacuation can go smoothly. What happens when a high risk prisoner is being transferred... first they secure the area then they transfer him... they wont just all come walking out of the building even if they have lots of guys around all it takes is one shot to kill that prisoner... now imagine a couple thousand angry terrorists and the only thing between them and the settlers are a few army personnel... firstly it would have to be allot of army personnel secondly the army wouldnít be able to concentrate because they would have a dual problem... forcefully evicting settlers and protecting them at the same time... I'm sorry but that scenario is downright illogical. Yes the wall is being constructed for protection and for a way to safely evacuate settlers.

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Not according to Sharon's plan, the wall is necessary not because of the temporary suicide-bombers (that is just PR-fodder for the masses), but in order to keep the settlements in the Westbank, while keeping the rapidly reproducing palestinians out of Israel and if possible, as a sort of bonus, to prevent the creation of a contigous palestinian state in the Westbank.

Taliesin
Only time will tell our difference of opinion. I still say itís to cover their asses as they are being evacuated. But I will reserve judgment until I see something happen over there... right now the first step is Gaza.

Originally posted by eklipse:
I'm sorry, which part of acknowledging and excusing two serious breaches of international law makes one "merciful"?
When itís referring to the lives of thousands of innocent men women and children. I pray to God that was a rhetorical question because having to explain something so blatantly simple and supposedly completely inbred in human nature and our own societies, which is the preservation of innocent life, felt pretty stupid.
What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth. Yiddish proverb
     
Salah al-Din  (op)
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Jan 28, 2005, 04:43 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
I think you need to read it more carefully. As your friend here Tal knows, your Koran teaches you that taking the life of innocent people is a sin.
Yes, innocent lives are sacred. But colonialists aren't innocent. There is only one group among them that is innocent. The children. All other are war criminals and should be brought to justice just like Milosevic, Hitler or low life soldier who follows orders blindly.
     
Splinter
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Jan 28, 2005, 06:21 AM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
Yes, innocent lives are sacred. But colonialists aren't innocent. There is only one group among them that is innocent. The children. All other are war criminals and should be brought to justice just like Milosevic, Hitler or low life soldier who follows orders blindly.
So a Husband and wife move there and live there for a while have children and those children grow up there and start families there with others in the settlement so those children who married and now have children of their own... they didnít move in... They were born there. Are they condemned to? You know what? It doesnít matter. Human lives can be saved quite easily and you are saying forget it. I would like you to go there and spend some time with them and tell me those people are like Hitler and war criminals that they are bad people who want to cause trouble and that should be sentenced to death. You come back and tell me that they still deserve to die and I will be able to rest easy at night knowing that you are truly insane and I can just block you on here.

You have some serious hate issues with these people and I suggest you address them.
What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth. Yiddish proverb
     
Salah al-Din  (op)
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Jan 28, 2005, 06:36 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
So a Husband and wife move there and live there for a while have children and those children grow up there and start families there with others in the settlement so those children who married and now have children of their own... they didnít move in... They were born there. Are they condemned to? You know what? It doesnít matter. Human lives can be saved quite easily and you are saying forget it. I would like you to go there and spend some time with them and tell me those people are like Hitler and war criminals that they are bad people who want to cause trouble and that should be sentenced to death. You come back and tell me that they still deserve to die and I will be able to rest easy at night knowing that you are truly insane and I can just block you on here.

You have some serious hate issues with these people and I suggest you address them.
As soon as a person is old enough to decide if he wants to continue being a war criminal yet he decides to stay there he is a war criminal.

It's as simple as that.

The only colonialists I feel sorry for are the children who are brought up by war criminals and tought that being a war criminal is OK(and in some cases a duty).

And I say again. I have no sympathy for war criminals. You might, but I never will.
     
Chuckit
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Jan 28, 2005, 07:22 AM
 
Originally posted by Salah al-Din:
I'm sorry but I have no sympathy with war criminals. Be they Milosevic, Hitler, any low life soldier who follows orders blindly or the "innocent" colonialist stealing land and resulting in the deaths of truly innocent people.
Yeah, people plunking their butts down on some property are exactly the same thing as a genocidal maniac leader like Slobodan Milosevic. You hit the nail on the head there, and have not in any way made light of the intentional killing of millions.

I wish a minor land grab in an incredibly muddy squabble were the worst crime ever committed.
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Taliesin
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Jan 28, 2005, 07:39 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
Thatís the thing... It was a desert until the settlers got there to what the nearby Arab inhabitants called a cursed land. They came and they used the knowledge they had gained in Europe to irrigate the land and make it blossom. And they have and the Arabs called them blessed and came by the thousands to come get jobs and to live near the good land. It is currently a world leader in producing the technologies for cultivation irrigation and all aspects of that. The loss of the crops from there alone will be felt tremendously not just in Israel but also hundreds of importing countries around the globe.

Gaza is not "nothing"
We are talking here about Gaza and not Israel, settlers didn't come to Gaza until after the 67-war, when Israel conquered Gaza from Egypt. In 67 all the european technologies regarding agriculture in deserts were mostly already known by arabs and practiced, not to say that palestinians had enough access to them but still.

In order to achieve something in Gaza a lot of water is necessary that would have to flow from other parts, like Egypt or the Westbank. Israel established a good water-delivery-system, espescially after the 67-war, when the water from the Westbank was delivered through that system to whole Israel as well as to its settlers in Gaza. Off course palestinians were not allowed to have access to that water-system and had to use the sparse wells they were allowed to dig. Most of the water in the Westbank was therefore reserved for Israel and its settler and was redirected.









Originally posted by Splinter:
That would be civil war... you think the rallies are big now against abandoning gush katif... the government would be overthrown within a short time if that law was passed... not that it ever would be.



Well of course it includes as many settlements as possible... the reason for building it there is so that the settlers are on the other side of the wall so the evacuation can go smoothly. What happens when a high risk prisoner is being transferred... first they secure the area then they transfer him... they wont just all come walking out of the building even if they have lots of guys around all it takes is one shot to kill that prisoner... now imagine a couple thousand angry terrorists and the only thing between them and the settlers are a few army personnel... firstly it would have to be allot of army personnel secondly the army wouldnít be able to concentrate because they would have a dual problem... forcefully evicting settlers and protecting them at the same time... I'm sorry but that scenario is downright illogical. Yes the wall is being constructed for protection and for a way to safely evacuate settlers.
You really believe the wall is constructed in order to safely evacuate settlers from Gaza and Westbank? Good for you, but someone should tell that to your government and to Sharon and the whole Likud-party, because they believe and have stated so, that the wall is there to explicitly keep settlements in the Westbank!





Originally posted by Splinter:
Only time will tell our difference of opinion. I still say itís to cover their asses as they are being evacuated. But I will reserve judgment until I see something happen over there... right now the first step is Gaza.

Fair enough, eventhough it sounds like a fairy-tale.


Taliesin
     
Splinter
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Jan 28, 2005, 11:49 AM
 
Originally posted by Chuckit:
Yeah, people plunking their butts down on some property are exactly the same thing as a genocidal maniac leader like Slobodan Milosevic. You hit the nail on the head there, and have not in any way made light of the intentional killing of millions.

I wish a minor land grab in an incredibly muddy squabble were the worst crime ever committed.
What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth. Yiddish proverb
     
Splinter
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Jan 28, 2005, 11:50 AM
 
Originally posted by Taliesin:
We are talking here about Gaza and not Israel, settlers didn't come to Gaza until after the 67-war, when Israel conquered Gaza from Egypt. In 67 all the european technologies regarding agriculture in deserts were mostly already known by arabs and practiced, not to say that palestinians had enough access to them but still.

In order to achieve something in Gaza a lot of water is necessary that would have to flow from other parts, like Egypt or the Westbank. Israel established a good water-delivery-system, espescially after the 67-war, when the water from the Westbank was delivered through that system to whole Israel as well as to its settlers in Gaza. Off course palestinians were not allowed to have access to that water-system and had to use the sparse wells they were allowed to dig. Most of the water in the Westbank was therefore reserved for Israel and its settler and was redirected.
Before the state of Israel was created there were setllers in the gaza strip area. They have settlments there of more then 80 years old.

Originally posted by Taliesin:
You really believe the wall is constructed in order to safely evacuate settlers from Gaza and Westbank? Good for you, but someone should tell that to your government and to Sharon and the whole Likud-party, because they believe and have stated so, that the wall is there to explicitly keep settlements in the Westbank!
Link.
What you don't see with your eyes, don't invent with your mouth. Yiddish proverb
     
Taliesin
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Jan 29, 2005, 06:27 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
Before the state of Israel was created there were setllers in the gaza strip area. They have settlments there of more then 80 years old.
That's interesting, so:
Link.


Originally posted by Splinter:

Link.
Ok, you want links that deal with Sharon's strategy that he follows with Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza.For that purpose I made a search on the BBC-website and it brought up some interesting links. First I will offer links that have to do with the Gaza-pullout from numerous perspectives:

Gazans' mistrust of Sharon's disengagement-plan:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3951351.stm

The fact that Gaza will still be under occupation since Israel will continue to control the borders, the ports as well as airspace:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4215947.stm

How the control of the borders, ports and airspace will continue to keep down the devastated economy of Gaza, since no outside-trade is possible:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3653421.stm

Now we come finally to the strategic plans of Sharon with the Gaza-withdrawal:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3601593.stm

and

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3620955.stm

But it's funny that some of Sharon's strategic plans laid down in the last two links are somewhat disturbed by the surprising and for Sharon unwelcome death of Jassir Arafat.

Taliesin

P.S.: Eventhough it has nothing to do with the Gaza-pullout I have found another interesting and strange report about Israel's army robbing out banks in the Westbank: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3488962.stm
     
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Jan 29, 2005, 07:15 AM
 
Originally posted by Taliesin:
That's interesting, so:
Link.
hmm well maybe not 80 years old... but older then 1948... Kfar Darom. you can look them up. it was started 58 years ago in 1946 a settlement in the gaza strip.

Couldnt find much else online.


Originally posted by Taliesin:
Ok, you want links that deal with Sharon's strategy that he follows with Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza.For that purpose I made a search on the BBC-website and it brought up some interesting links. First I will offer links that have to do with the Gaza-pullout from numerous perspectives:

Gazans' mistrust of Sharon's disengagement-plan:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3951351.stm

The fact that Gaza will still be under occupation since Israel will continue to control the borders, the ports as well as airspace:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4215947.stm

How the control of the borders, ports and airspace will continue to keep down the devastated economy of Gaza, since no outside-trade is possible:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3653421.stm

Now we come finally to the strategic plans of Sharon with the Gaza-withdrawal:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3601593.stm

and

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3620955.stm

But it's funny that some of Sharon's strategic plans laid down in the last two links are somewhat disturbed by the surprising and for Sharon unwelcome death of Jassir Arafat.

Taliesin

P.S.: Eventhough it has nothing to do with the Gaza-pullout I have found another interesting and strange report about Israel's army robbing out banks in the Westbank: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3488962.stm
No, I wanted links showing me "that the wall is there to explicitly keep settlements in the Westbank!"

Side note... the 6 settlments listed that will remian under Israeli control I have to agree with... especially Hebron.
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Spliffdaddy
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Jan 29, 2005, 09:13 PM
 
as usual, the Palestinians look to the Jews for a handout.

Why don't they ask the Muslims for help?
     
Taliesin
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Jan 31, 2005, 08:41 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
No, I wanted links showing me "that the wall is there to explicitly keep settlements in the Westbank!"

Side note... the 6 settlments listed that will remian under Israeli control I have to agree with... especially Hebron.
Haven't you read the reports I linked to? In one of them Sharon is quoted as saying:
"In the unilateral plan, there is no Palestinian state. This situation could continue for many years," Mr Sharon said.

The prime minister told Maariv that his plan "will bring their [the Palestinians'] dreams to an end".

"When you fence areas and communities in the West Bank, you end a lot of their dreams," Mr Sharon said, referring to the controversial security barrier Israel is building.

"My plan is tough on the Palestinians. A mortal blow."
Palestinian's dreams are the withdrawal of settlements in the Westbank and the establishment of a palestinian state and an even bigger dream is the right of return for the palestinians, and all those dreams Sharon tries to end with the wall as well as the unilateral Gaza-pullout that Sharon hoped would reduce considerably the international pressure on Israel to do something beyond that.

Sure, the surprising death of Arafat has somehow disturbed Sharon's plans, but that was what he planned back then, and he will try to find a way to refresh his plan.

Taliesin
     
Athens
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Jan 31, 2005, 09:38 AM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
Well it's finally out.

You support the murder of Jews.

There would be no wall if they weren't sending exploding murderers across the border.
Period.
Same argument could be said about the murderers with tanks in Israeli uniforms. Murderers in Tanks, murderers blowing themselves up, either way both are Murderers. Of course if you call them murderers you will have to label American solders in Iraq murderers too, and any other combatants fighting a war.
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BoomStick
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Jan 31, 2005, 09:51 AM
 
Dig deeper, trollboy.
     
Athens
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Jan 31, 2005, 09:54 AM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
Dig deeper, trollboy.
HAHA what am I starting to get to you, cant think of anything better to say. If any one is a trollboy your looking at it every time you look in a mirror.
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BoomStick
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Jan 31, 2005, 09:58 AM
 
Don't be sanctimonious, you might not like what you see in the mirror.
     
Athens
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Jan 31, 2005, 10:16 AM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
Don't be sanctimonious, you might not like what you see in the mirror.
Actually I don't, i've never cared much for my nose. But I dont think I have ever meet any one who fully liked what they saw in the mirror. Specailly woman, thay always complain about there looks, but this is getting so way off topic. Did you have a real responce in relations to my post or are we just going to play games all night. Because im not really interested if your just going to play games and throw insults and big words that I have to look up at dictionary.com. As I said before im not the troll here but you sir are.
( Last edited by Athens; Jan 31, 2005 at 01:24 PM. )
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Splinter
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Jan 31, 2005, 01:19 PM
 
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Haven't you read the reports I linked to? In one of them Sharon is quoted as saying:
No I didnt. no offence but after glanicing at the titles and skimming through it looked like you had posted a bunch of stuff to derail the topic... so I didnt see which link your quote below was from.

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Palestinian's dreams are the withdrawal of settlements in the Westbank and the establishment of a palestinian state and an even bigger dream is the right of return for the palestinians, and all those dreams Sharon tries to end with the wall as well as the unilateral Gaza-pullout that Sharon hoped would reduce considerably the international pressure on Israel to do something beyond that.

Sure, the surprising death of Arafat has somehow disturbed Sharon's plans, but that was what he planned back then, and he will try to find a way to refresh his plan.

Taliesin
Thats very interesting but 1. Why would he state that publically if it had any basis on reality... he may be a **** but hes not stupid. 2. Hes not going to be prime minister forever and im pretty sure that the next one (lets hope) is not as delusional in his aspirations for the barrier.
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Jan 31, 2005, 01:24 PM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
Same argument could be said about the murderers with tanks in Israeli uniforms. Murderers in Tanks, murderers blowing themselves up, either way both are Murderers. Of course if you call them murderers you will have to label American solders in Iraq murderers too, and any other combatants fighting a war.
There are those whose goals are to inflict the most damage on anyone and in this case targeting civilians almost exclusivly. They are Murderers.

Then there are those who are taking orders maybe make a wrong calculation maybe shoot the wrong person in a big fire fight. You might call them killers... but not murderers... its the intent in the heart. and I would gladly kill a Murderer in defence of my country my family and my friends and be labled a killer for the rest of my life.
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Taliesin
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Feb 1, 2005, 05:09 AM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
No I didnt. no offence but after glanicing at the titles and skimming through it looked like you had posted a bunch of stuff to derail the topic... so I didnt see which link your quote below was from.
I invested at least an hour for you into finding relevant reports dealing with the topic at hand, the Gaza-pullout and the wall, the least you could have done was to read them.


Originally posted by Splinter:
Thats very interesting but 1. Why would he state that publically if it had any basis on reality... he may be a **** but hes not stupid. 2. Hes not going to be prime minister forever and im pretty sure that the next one (lets hope) is not as delusional in his aspirations for the barrier.
Regarding:
1. He stated his true strategy because he felt it was necessary in order to prevent a fight with the settler-movement and the zionists.

2. I don't think so, every primeminister in Israel will have the pressure of the settler-movement on their shoulders, and just because sharon won't be primeminister forever doesn't mean he loses his political influence when he's out of that job. Sharon made his mark in the political scene of Israel for fifty years, and he will continue to do that.

Taliesin
     
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Feb 1, 2005, 06:57 AM
 
Originally posted by Taliesin:
I invested at least an hour for you into finding relevant reports dealing with the topic at hand, the Gaza-pullout and the wall, the least you could have done was to read them.
Listen, next time donít post a bunch of fluff I didnít ask for anything but stuff regarding "that the wall is there to explicitly keep settlements in the Westbank!" Well that was in one of your links. And after glancing through the others seeing there wasnít anything regarding that in there I skipped them and must have inadvertently skipped the actual relevant part about the subject at hand. So next time donít feel you must invest extra effort into every interesting article cause most of those I had already seen. I appreciate the effort but it was a waste on your part.

Originally posted by Taliesin:
Regarding:
1. He stated his true strategy because he felt it was necessary in order to prevent a fight with the settler-movement and the zionists.

2. I don't think so, every primeminister in Israel will have the pressure of the settler-movement on their shoulders, and just because sharon won't be primeminister forever doesn't mean he loses his political influence when he's out of that job. Sharon made his mark in the political scene of Israel for fifty years, and he will continue to do that.

Taliesin
1. Conjecture, we wont be able to prove anything untill the issue really comes up after the Gaza pullout. If that even happens.

2. Again its going to be really difficult to tell the shape of the future in this region its in a constant state of flux and there is just no telling what the next PM might be capable of... for better or for worse.
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Athens
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Feb 1, 2005, 03:41 PM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:
There are those whose goals are to inflict the most damage on anyone and in this case targeting civilians almost exclusivly. They are Murderers.

Then there are those who are taking orders maybe make a wrong calculation maybe shoot the wrong person in a big fire fight. You might call them killers... but not murderers... its the intent in the heart. and I would gladly kill a Murderer in defence of my country my family and my friends and be labled a killer for the rest of my life.

While partly true there are also Israelie solders that kill just for the sake of killing to install fear. A young american girl from Washington State was run over by a Iraelie tank during a protest and was killed, no one was armed. Both sides are guilty or murder and killing.
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Feb 1, 2005, 04:06 PM
 
You might want to look caterpillar girl up.

She was quite active in the accident that got her killed.

The driver had no way to see her when she fell under the cats.

Google Rachael Corrie, she was no saint.
     
Splinter
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Feb 1, 2005, 04:29 PM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
While partly true there are also Israelie solders that kill just for the sake of killing to install fear. A young american girl from Washington State was run over by a Iraelie tank during a protest and was killed, no one was armed. Both sides are guilty or murder and killing.
Yes there are a few and they are punished... not nearly as much as they should be but at least they are sought out and punished and not rewarded. But its usually not to instill fear... usually the soldiers who do this either 1. have a personal vendetta... a loved one perhaps blown up in a terrorist attack. or 2. Some guys who are just sick in the head and actually kill for the sake of it.

That girl was an idiot.

1. the people that are assigned to the bulldozers are part of the combat engineering corps and are generally selcted because they are the most troublesome and this way they arnt given a gun... well not one they would have to use outside as much.

2. if you have never sat in the cockpit of a D9 I suggest you try it and then imagine dirty thick smuged bullet proof glass on a winters day it might have been raining or foggy... tell me how well you can see in front of you. These things are monsterous...


At any rate it was no Tiananmen square
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BoomStick
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Feb 1, 2005, 04:55 PM
 
Originally posted by Splinter:

At any rate it was no Tiananmen square
Nope, it was a fine example of Darwinism at work.

Natural selection.
     
BoomStick
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Feb 1, 2005, 05:56 PM
 
Oh look at this....
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=31363


Although the Israeli military initially assumed responsibility for the incident, it soon became apparent that the IDF could not have shot the boy, due to a large barrier between the Israeli military outpost across the remote junction and the location of the boy and his father.

Now, a just-completed, long-term journalistic investigation conducted in France concludes that the Mohammed al-Dura affair was actually a piece of Palestinian theater Ė similar to the dramatic Palestinian funeral processions last April after the Israeli incursion into the Jenin refugee camp. During that public spectacle, a martyred "corpse" twice fell off the stretcher, only to hop back up and retake his place in the procession.
     
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Feb 1, 2005, 06:20 PM
 
Originally posted by BoomStick:
Oh look at this....
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=31363
That funeral was a mock funeral for a movie being made. Nothing about propaganda or anything like it.

And the only ones to claim that Mohammed al-Durrah was shot by Palestinians are Zionists and their supporters. All the reporters there told what happened. He was shot while in his fathers arms(who was pleading for mercy) by IOF soldiers.
     
 
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