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Missing atheist sign found. (Page 3)
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Shaddim
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Dec 8, 2008, 05:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Glad you see it that way.

Now worship me cause I'm God. That's my belief and thus it's a correct belief according to quantum mechanics.

Worship me like you worship all your other Gods including Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Flying Spaghetti Monster. According to you, they are all your God(s) and they are all the same.

I'm just as powerful as the other God(s), since we are all the same.

Any belief that I've created will become the true. Because according to quantum mechanics all beliefs are possible.
Nah, just go into the bathroom and worship yourself with a moist towel, I'm sure you'll get something out of it. Better yet, just go hang out at the airport. Those guys are always a blast.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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hyteckit
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Dec 8, 2008, 05:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Nah, just go into the bathroom and worship yourself with a moist towel, I'm sure you'll get something out of it. Better yet, just go hang out at the airport. Those guys are always a blast.
Are you saying my belief that I'm God is wrong?

But all beliefs are right according to you. Thus you should worship me just as you worship all God(s).

Why limit yourself to just selected beliefs? Why are you so closed minded?

Remember the wise Shaddim once said:

"God" not only exists, but all gods, entities, and supernatural phenomena exist on infinite levels in infinite probabilities. Everything has to be out there, because all 10 dimensions encompass all eventualities.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
Shaddim
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Dec 8, 2008, 05:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Yes, that's also a possibility.

I f*ck God and had a child called Jesus Christ.
So, you've decided to crash this discussion and give up? No surprise there, it wasn't going very well for the MacNN atheist clique. Next time you could just try more people, that always works, right?

I won and I'm going to bed.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
hyteckit
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Dec 8, 2008, 05:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
So, you've decided to crash this discussion and give up? No surprise there, it wasn't going very well for the MacNN atheist clique. Next time you could just try more people, that always works, right?

I won and I'm going to bed.
All possibilities exist my friend.

It takes strong faith to believe that you won the debate. But I guess that's also a possibility that you might have won in one of these infinite levels of infinite possibilities.

[mathematical proof]
But since you are the atheist here, not believing that I'm God. Then you are the one wrong since only atheists are wrong, and all the other beliefs are right. Thus, you are wrong for not believing I'm God, and I'm right according to Quantum Mechanics, cause all God(s) and all possibilities exist.
[/mathematical proof]

As Descartes once said about Quantum Mechanics:

I believe I'm God, thus I'm God.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
The Crook
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Dec 8, 2008, 05:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
MacNN atheist clique.
I like that!

Somebody print up some t-shirts.

Crooked Member of the MacNN Atheist Clique.
     
Chuckit
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Dec 8, 2008, 05:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Mule fritters.

Atheism is a choice that's made without having all the facts, like any other faith-based system.


Circles and circles, round and round. How many times does this point need to be made?
Repetition does not make a poor argument more convincing. Case in point, you keep asserting that atheism is a belief formed without all the facts without demonstrating how this is the case. To me, atheism appears to be the same response you get to any unconvincing argument. It's a lack of belief left by the absence of convincing evidence. It's distinct from a positive belief in that it's the default condition — rocks and clouds also do not believe in God, but I don't think anybody would accuse them of having beliefs. It's also different in that unbelief is rational in the absence of positive evidence.
( Last edited by Chuckit; Dec 8, 2008 at 05:48 AM. )
Chuck
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hyteckit
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Dec 8, 2008, 05:36 AM
 
Here's a simple explanation of a mathematical concept that Shaddim fails to understand.

infinite possibilities != all possibilities

If there are infinite levels of infinite possibilities, and they are represented by an infinite sequence of odd positive integers.

level 1: [1,3,5,7,...,infinity]
level 2: [3,5,7,9,....,infinity]
level 3: [5,7,9,11,...,infinity]
...
....
level infinity

Let say the above infinite levels of infinite possibilities represents reality.

If Santa Claus, God, Easter Bunny, FSM are even numbers, do they exist in reality, even if there are infinite levels of infinite possibilities of reality? No.

Because even numbers are not part of the infinite levels of infinite possibilities sequence, which represents reality.

infinite possibilities != all possibilities
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
thechidz
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Dec 8, 2008, 05:55 AM
 
1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89...
     
hyteckit
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Dec 8, 2008, 06:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by thechidz View Post
1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89...
Dude, that's a possibility that's not in the realm of reality.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
tintub
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Dec 8, 2008, 06:12 AM
 
There seems to be some misconception about the terms ... atheism refers to belief and agnosticism refers to knowledge. The definition of agnosticism as some kind of weak atheism is a very poor definition. My belief is that there is no god (as I have no evidence to believe there IS a god), but I know that I cannot know for sure. If I had evidence that showed that there IS a god, my belief would change very quickly. Therefore I am an agnostic atheist. No contradiction there, no hypocrisy or fundamentalism. This is the only rational position to hold on the subject.

I can understand why people become "fundamentalist" atheists. Religion is the cause of much of the misery in the world, and the sooner we are rid of it, the better. People are angry because there is not sufficient separation between church and state. We do not want our children to be lied to, and we do not want government decisions to be made based on religious reasons rather than rational reasons.
     
thechidz
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Dec 8, 2008, 06:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Dude, that's a possibility that's not in the realm of reality.
why would you say it isnt in the realm of reality?
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Dec 8, 2008, 06:56 AM
 
Ahh yeah, two more mirror image traits.

The old, "They're the cause of everything bad..." and the classic standby, "We don't want our kids exposed to them..." lines.

Heh, and a "This is the ONE truth" tossed in for good measure. Nice show!

Different sides of the exact same coin.
     
thechidz
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Dec 8, 2008, 07:01 AM
 
I think it was Schoenberg who showed that all pitches can be generated from any pitch
Bow chicka bow-wow
     
OldManMac
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Dec 8, 2008, 07:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
Ahh yeah, two more mirror image traits.

The old, "They're the cause of everything bad..." and the classic standby, "We don't want our kids exposed to them..." lines.

Heh, and a "This is the ONE truth" tossed in for good measure. Nice show!

Different sides of the exact same coin.
Prove otherwise. People kill each other daily due to a belief in their god. We believe what we do because we always have, not based on any logic. My parents took me to Sunday School and then I was "confirmed," and I believed it because it was spoken by authority figures, just as they did when they were little, and their parents before them. We don't question, we just believe. Just like the Muslims, the Jews, the Hindus, etc., etc. When we feel threatened that our beliefs are going to be changed or subjugated, we react in a hostile fashion. Our belief in a god is based on emotion, not logic.

You jump in here periodically and reply based on emotion, and you'll no doubt put in some little snipe about this, based on emotional reaction. You're just as insecure in your beliefs as everyone else is.

What many of you don't get is that your religious beliefs are fine with us who don't believe, but your beliefs are often used to make laws that affect others who don't believe as you do, and that shows ignorance on your part, as you believe your righteousness has to be forced down others' throats, and you just can't comprehend how others can't see the same things you do. You base everything you do simply on an emotive belief that you've had since childhood, just because. Then, when somebody threatens your beliefs, you react with emotion; it's human nature to a point, and we all do it, but that doesn't mean that we have to continue.

Carry on attacking each other.
     
red rocket
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Dec 8, 2008, 09:57 AM
 
Something else.

The concept of this monolithic, paternal ‘God’ guy that the majority of monotheists appear to believe in does not satisfy my criteria for godliness.

I can respect the mystics’ and hippies’ notion of impersonal, universal god power permeating the whole universe, and respect people experimenting with the aim of getting in tune with that, all fine. In some ways, my own thinking and psychonautical experimentation seems largely compatible with theirs, even though we are using radically different terms to express ourselves.

The Torah, Bible and Koran read to me as if they have been written by simpletons. The whole thing, the whole idea, the whole BS, seems exceedingly childish, naïve, ignorant, stupid and unimaginative to me. Any entity I would recognise as god-like would have to be several orders of magnitude smarter, faster, more interesting than a fully turned-on human ape, and there simply isn’t anything like that in their universe. By ‘fully turned on’, I mean to suggest that if the smartest men on the planet are only using ten per cent of their brains, and the occasional freak genius hits maybe eleven or twelve, then certainly, anyone even using as little as fifty per cent of their potential, should be capable of feats more impressive than the ‘God’ of the average Muslim, Christian, or Jew.

Expecting someone else to submit to, or respect, the authority of some scared and moronic slave’s idea of a ‘god’ is an affront to everyone who wishes to develop themselves into something genuinely god-like. It’s oppression.
     
nonhuman
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Dec 8, 2008, 10:32 AM
 
The idea that people only use 10% of their brain is a complete myth.
     
Helmling
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Dec 8, 2008, 12:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
The idea that people only use 10% of their brain is a complete myth.
You're right. This thread would appear to suggest it's actually far less than that.

Just kidding, I know what you mean. It's 10% at a time (and even that number is spurious) because the brain is broken into specialized centers.

Belief is a product of how the brain works. We're programmed to relate to our environment in terms of cause-and-effect. We're programmed to learn through mimicry, including memes. This is why, in the face of the enormity of existence and the unanswerable questions of the origin of the cosmos, human beings have for as long as we have been able to articulate conscious thoughts conjured stories of ancestors in the beyond, animal spirits, and yes, Gods shaping the universe around us. We are creatures of belief. Our unique and complex minds are so good at generating explanations, at understanding, that when reasonable conclusions are impossible, they will invent and they will accept inventions.

Yes, I'm obviously a member of the atheist clique for saying that. Can you really blame us? If you look deep into yourselves, don't you know we're right? Each of you theists believes in your own particular supernatural scenario, usually based at least in part in some sort of received revelation from the often distant past. Why should a reasonable person take your vision of a supernatural creator any more seriously than Allah, Vishnu or Zeus? From the rational point of view, they're all equally fantastic.

Rationally, in the absence of evidence for the existence of a phenomenon one should assume the position that said phenomenon does not exist.

Most of you probably do not believe that UFOs are alien spacecraft because there is insufficient evidence to compel reasonable people to subscribe to that belief. The fervent belief of others does not convince you, why should it convince us? So, really, those who were saying that atheism is somehow just another religious viewpoint, please don't. It's simply inaccurate, which as rationalists, we find insulting.

I'm sorry if it bothers you to admit that atheism is a fundamentally different point of view in that it is logical in and of itself, but we're asked to take seriously your belief in supernatural beings, and you know what, for the most part, we do. I accept that religion serves some very important role in the lives of most of the people around me. It perplexes me to no end, but I accept it.

hyteckit, I would urge you to do the same. Not because it makes sense, but simply because there is no other way to live in this world. Yes, it may seem like we're living in a world full of grown people who, as you suggest, believe in Santa Claus, but we must seek harmony with one another and that means affording other people room to make their own choices.
     
olePigeon
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Dec 8, 2008, 12:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Why is it assumed an Christian stole the sign? It could have been anyone from any religion. Actually, it could have been anyone period. Wouldn't it be hypocritical of an atheist to assume anything without evidence?
It was set up next to the nativity scene. I would assume that some Christian took offense to it and wanted it destroyed; after all, their myth is the only one, true religion. It's not likely it was a Muslim or Jew because they don't believe Jesus is the son of God.
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olePigeon
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Dec 8, 2008, 12:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
... the Hindus, etc.
Now, wait a minute. Hindus don't have to worship the gods. There also isn't any divine retribution if you don't. The gods represent ideals, actions, and places. You give tribute to some of the gods based on how you live your life, they're guidelines. You're trying to be a good, successful person, and the gods show you the path.

That is completely different from Christians and Muslims. Christianity and Islam have laws. You have to follow those laws or you'll be in big trouble. You won't go to heaven, or at the very best, end up on purgatory if you don't follow the rules. Like stillborn children. It's their fault they died before they could be baptized, so they go to Purgatory.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
nonhuman
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Dec 8, 2008, 12:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
Now, wait a minute. Hindus don't have to worship the gods. There also isn't any divine retribution if you don't. The gods represent ideals, actions, and places. You give tribute to some of the gods based on how you live your life, they're guidelines. You're trying to be a good, successful person, and the gods show you the path.

That is completely different from Christians and Muslims. Christianity and Islam have laws. You have to follow those laws or you'll be in big trouble. You won't go to heaven, or at the very best, end up on purgatory if you don't follow the rules. Like stillborn children. It's their fault they died before they could be baptized, so they go to Purgatory.
Purgatory doesn't exist anymore, the Pope shut it down.
     
CRASH HARDDRIVE
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Dec 8, 2008, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by OldManMac View Post
Prove otherwise. People kill each other daily due to a belief in their god.
People kill each other daily over a wrong look, drugs, pure spite, or nothing at all. Prove otherwise.

When we feel threatened that our beliefs are going to be changed or subjugated, we react in a hostile fashion.
Exactly. Flip side of the same coin I was talking about. I personally feel no need to dick up someone else's holiday or religious display with some crazy, preachy sign that's far more intolerant than someone else's celebration of a holiday. You're right, it's a hostile reaction to someone's beliefs being challenged.

Sure, everyone is guilty of it at some point. I just object most to those that are the most annoying about it, and go around trying to ruin things for other people over it.

What many of you don't get is that your religious beliefs are fine with us who don't believe, but your beliefs are often used to make laws that affect others who don't believe as you do, and that shows ignorance on your part, as you believe your righteousness has to be forced down others' throats, and you just can't comprehend how others can't see the same things you do.
And again, it's the flip side of the same coin.

The irony, from my point of view, is that I've been annoyed by noisy atheists trying to shove their beliefs down everyone else's throats far more than I have by anyone religious- Christian, Muslim, Jewish, whatever.

I've witnessed atheists doing crazy **** like the thread-starter, trying to dump all over someone else's holiday celebration, religion, symbols and icons of their belief etc. far more than I have witnessed religious people trying to do the same to anyone else.

Always at this time of year a couple of noisy Debby Downer type atheists seem to slink out of their basements and have to try and ruin Christmas for everyone else by throwing sissy fits about everything from Christmas trees, to nativity scenes, to presents and candy canes.

I've personally seen just as many people that make a big show of their atheism, reminding everyone of it every other second, and having an annoying self-righteous attitude, and an 'everyone's out to get me' persecution syndrome , as I have religious people of the same stripe. Neither seems to realize they're just as annoying and preachy/whiny/intolerant/hostile reacting to anything that challenges their beliefs, as the other.

As for laws being changed that affect all of us, once more, I've found that believers in socialistic pie-in-the-sky tinkering, and enviro-gloom and doom, mange to affect laws more often than I've personally been affected by laws enacted or enforced strictly by the religious.

You base everything you do simply on an emotive belief that you've had since childhood, just because.
And that's exactly what you just did. You quoted some childhood story that now leads you to an irrational fear and intolerance of someone else's belief. Maybe your religious mirror image has the flip-side of your story: their parents took them to a hippie commune where everyone did everything just because some phony authority figure told them to drop out and tune in?

Then, when somebody threatens your beliefs, you react with emotion; it's human nature to a point, and we all do it
Well, on this point we agree. It's always the people that think of themselves as better than everyone else, IE: "mine is the only logical way, the one truth" bullshitters, that cause the most problems for everyone else, yet ironically, they're the ones that seem to feel they corner the market on 'peace'.

The only thing I disagree with you on is that we don't have to continue. I think we'll continue to deal with human nature for as long as we're all human. If people weren't fighting over religion or the lack thereof, we'd very quickly find something else to fight and die over.
     
olePigeon
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Dec 8, 2008, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Purgatory doesn't exist anymore, the Pope shut it down.
What a hoot. I love that about Christianity. Their way is the right way, unless it's unpopular, so they change their way to be the new right way.
"…I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods,
you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts
     
nonhuman
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Dec 8, 2008, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
What a hoot. I love that about Christianity. Their way is the right way, unless it's unpopular, so they change their way to be the new right way.
To be fair, the Pope (and Purgatory, for that matter) is only relevant to Catholics, not all of Christendom.
     
Chongo
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Dec 8, 2008, 01:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
So if Atheism is a belief system, then it too is a religion, right?
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
I don't know.

Is not believing in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny a religion too?

Easter Bunny non-believers religion. Who here is part of that religion? Who here believes in the Easter Bunny.

I guess in one of the infinite level of infinite probabilities, the Easter Bunny exist too.
The courts have ruled as such

http://www.ca7.uscourts.gov/fdocs/do...4-1914_016.pdf

The Supreme Court has recognized atheism as equivalent
to a “religion” for purposes of the First Amendment on numerous occasions, most recently in McCreary County, Ky. v. American Civil Liberties Union of Ky., 125 S.Ct. 2722 (2005).
     
goMac
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Dec 8, 2008, 01:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
infinite possibilities != all possibilities
Simple proof for this...

The number of integers is infinite. If you give me an integer, I can always give you back a bigger one. However, 3.5 will never appear in a list of infinite integers.

You can have something infinite that does not encompass all possibilities.
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Wiskedjak
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Dec 8, 2008, 03:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Why is it assumed an Christian stole the sign? It could have been anyone from any religion. Actually, it could have been anyone period. Wouldn't it be hypocritical of an atheist to assume anything without evidence?
Personally, I believe that, in at least one universe, a Christian stole the sign.
     
sek929
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Dec 8, 2008, 03:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
No, but there's nothing to suggest it is. Do you believe in everything based on the logic, "Some people mistakenly believe in this, so it's probably true for other reasons?"
Absolutely not, the problem we have here is people taking my statements as a black and white approach to everything.

Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I find it useful to take the meta out of metaphysics. People who will be so wishy-washy and tell me I'm being "cocky" by disbelieving in God you aren't seriously entertaining the idea of a vast global conspiracy just like I'm not seriously entertaining the idea of God.
To be fair, Chuckit, I was referring to Erik on that cocky statement. Not all Atheists are cocky, you certainly aren't, but a great deal of them are.
     
sek929
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Dec 8, 2008, 03:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Crook View Post
i find it interesting how much the faithful insist atheists are just like them.

Misery loves company long time.
There's that superiority complex again!

"My belief has a bigger dick than your belief!"

Just get it strait man, you have no clue what lies out there, yet you've already made up your mind...that's bad science.
     
nonhuman
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Dec 8, 2008, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Just get it strait man, you have no clue what lies out there, yet you've already made up your mind...that's bad science.
Bad science is assuming the existence of something despite a lack of evidence. Assuming that something doesn't exist because there's no evidence for it is not bad science: it's a necessary basis of science.

The difference between theists and atheists is this: if it weren't for theists making claims of a God, it would never even occur to atheists that there might be such a thing and so there would be no denial of it. But they would still, technically, be atheists.
     
sek929
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Dec 8, 2008, 03:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Repetition does not make a poor argument more convincing. Case in point, you keep asserting that atheism is a belief formed without all the facts without demonstrating how this is the case. To me, atheism appears to be the same response you get to any unconvincing argument. It's a lack of belief left by the absence of convincing evidence. It's distinct from a positive belief in that it's the default condition — rocks and clouds also do not believe in God, but I don't think anybody would accuse them of having beliefs. It's also different in that unbelief is rational in the absence of positive evidence.
The difference here is that some Atheists say "There is no God or Gods" as apposed to "The evidence for a God or Gods isn't there."

One is a statement based on a lack of evidence, on is a leap of faith based upon belief.

I probably lean more in the direction of the whole "No God" thing, but If I said, in all certainty, that I believed there is no God then what separates my evidence-less belief from anybody else? Science hasn't given us enough data for any sort of concrete conclusion.

I can say that a non-crazy woman doesn't exist because I've never seen one, but I would be making a huge leap in that reasoning. People may tell me that their woman isn't crazy, but I've already made up my mind.

Atheism is a reactionary belief mostly perpetuated to piss off the religious sects of the world. I'm all for offending people, but Atheism requires you to accept what science has given so far as the definitive framework for a universe to massive to comprehend.

I don't buy it.
     
sek929
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Dec 8, 2008, 03:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Bad science is assuming the existence of something despite a lack of evidence. Assuming that something doesn't exist because there's no evidence for it is not bad science: it's a necessary basis of science.
The science is incomplete, as is our understanding of this existence. Claiming with certainty that there is a god is just as foolish as claiming with certainty that there is no god.
     
Wiskedjak
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Dec 8, 2008, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
The difference here is that some Atheists say "There is no God or Gods" as apposed to "The evidence for a God or Gods isn't there."
This is a valid point. But, just as not all theists truly understand their religion, not all atheists understand the scientific principle behind their atheism. Someone who claims atheism as a result of scientific methodology would never say "There are no gods".

Also, just as some "theists" use the religion they claim to believe in as a vehicle for their hate of people different from them, some "atheists" use atheism as a vehicle for their hate against a religion that they may feel has wronged them in some way.
     
sek929
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Dec 8, 2008, 03:54 PM
 
Well said.

I think Atheism is all well and good, it just seems most of the people who proclaim themselves Atheists have a huuuge chip on their shoulder about religions in general. Are one of the tenants of Atheism that you must belittle and ridicule everyone who doesn't want to give Dawkins a hummer?

Human nature caused the ugliness in this world. Greed, corruption, malice....these are not ideas born from religious doctrine. Without the concept of god we would still murder each other in the most brutal of fashions at all times.
     
nonhuman
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Dec 8, 2008, 03:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Atheism is a reactionary belief mostly perpetuated to piss off the religious sects of the world. I'm all for offending people, but Atheism requires you to accept what science has given so far as the definitive framework for a universe to massive to comprehend.
The issue here, I believe, is that most atheists were not always such. I, for example, was raised by a Methodist minister. Rejecting the things that you were raised to believe is not an easy thing to do, it involves a lot of internal (and oftentimes external) conflict. As a result many people come through the other side with more than a little animosity towards the religion they were raised with and/or the people who forced it upon them. The fact that friends and family will probably continue to try and bring them back into the fold and often force them to attend religious ceremonies against their will only makes things worse. So young atheists (by which I mean people who have recently become atheists, and not necessarily young people who are atheists) do tend to be aggressive, spiteful, even hateful towards religion and the religious. This is less an aspect of atheist, however, and more a symptom of having abandoned your previous beliefs often in extremely contentious terms. I would imagine that the same is probably often true of people who convert to other religions. Hopefully these young atheists will lose that animosity as they mature in their atheism, and I like tho think that I have, but I'm sure it doesn't always happen that way.

As for whether or not it's non-scientific to assert that there is no God, it's not. Nor is it non-scientific to assert that there is no Santa Claus, or no Easter Bunny, or no Loch Ness Monster. If you start to think that just because there's no evidence doesn't mean it's not there you cease to be able to do meaningful science. Sure it might look like there's a fundamental force called gravity that is caused by the warping of spacetime by concentrations of mass, but we have to accept the possibility that actually God just wants people to stick to the surface of the Earth and not fly off into space? Of course not. It's useless and even counter productive to make assumptions without evidence.
     
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Dec 8, 2008, 04:07 PM
 
I was raised Catholic, but parted ways with it very amicably since my parents weren't very religious to begin with. it was more of a relic from their parents' time.

Still, when I called myself an Atheist I found it my duty to belittle and humiliate people who believed in Christ, or God, or Allah.

Instead of taking the time to ponder what I supposedly believed in I took the chance to feel superior to the idiots who needed the crutch of faith to lean on. This is, of course, a completely ass-backwards way of approaching belief.

Once I gave it enough thought (instead of just putting down religion) I discovered the possibility of things outside of human understanding, in fact, I found out that much of what exists lies outside the bounds of human understanding.

It seems to me that Atheism is a necessary step for a person to take when defecting from major religions, but its' empty humanistic view of our universe is to simplistic for me. Trillions of years ago, before our universe formed, what was there? I'll say it again, I'm absolutely convinced it wasn't 'nothing.'

I feel that everyone needs to hold a belief in something bigger than themselves, whether it be the cold empty expanses of space, or the area in between sub-atomic particles. To me, God is in the details.....using the term very loosely.
     
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Dec 8, 2008, 04:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
It seems to me that Atheism is a necessary step for a person to take when defecting from major religions, but its' empty humanistic view of our universe is to simplistic for me. Trillions of years ago, before our universe formed, what was there? I'll say it again, I'm absolutely convinced it wasn't 'nothing.'
Science doesn't actually say that there was nothing before our universe formed. Current mainstream science says nothing about what there was before our universe formed, because current mainstream science can't look back further than the beginning of our universe. Time, as we understand it, didn't exist prior to our universe existing, so in a very real sense you could say that our universe extends back infinitely into the past. Cosmologists have posited all sorts of currently non-testable hypothesis about what exists outside, before, and/or after our universe, but this isn't really science as we usually understand it (though some day, perhaps, it could be).

Also it's worth mentioning that atheism and humanism are not necessarily the same thing. One can be an atheist and still believe in various 'supernatural' things.

I feel that everyone needs to hold a belief in something bigger than themselves, whether it be the cold empty expanses of space, or the area in between sub-atomic particles. To me, God is in the details.....using the term very loosely.
I agree. There are any number of definitions for God that I would find acceptable. But to me it's nothing more than a placeholder. A word we use for the thing(s) that we don't understand and/or can't phrase linguistically. And because of the connotations it carries in society I find it disingenuous to use the word God as such, and wouldn't do so outside of a conversation such as this. It's for this reason that I find Reconstructionist Judaism attractive, but ultimately could never really affiliate myself with it.
     
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Dec 8, 2008, 04:26 PM
 
That's my point, where science ends is where my imagination has to start filling in the holes because, well, I have to think about it Also, I think there are enough blank spaces in our understanding of the universe that it might not only be plausible, but entirely possible that a being (or beings) or unfathomable power and scope exist.

As for your last statement, I agree entirely. It's hard to use the word God without people picturing flowing white robes and a golden chair in the heavens. Hopefully our locution for this whole "god" thing advances over time.
     
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Dec 8, 2008, 04:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
That's my point, where science ends is where my imagination has to start filling in the holes because, well, I have to think about it Also, I think there are enough blank spaces in our understanding of the universe that it might not only be plausible, but entirely possible that a being (or beings) or unfathomable power and scope exist.
Well current theories can make predictions about what we might find outside the bounds of the observable universe, but since they are, by definition, unobservable we can't treat them as anything other than fancy. I remember reading not too long ago (possibly in Wired or SciAm or something like that) an article about a cosmologist who had derived a theory of a cyclical universe from String theory or M-theory or one of those. Basically that the beginning of our universe was the end of another (although in his particular theory the previous universe ran backwards relative to ours so that both universes were growing out in opposite temporal directions from the same 'place'). Cool stuff, and at least somewhat based on science, but ultimately not useful in a scientific sense (at least not now).
     
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Dec 8, 2008, 05:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
“the principle that the First Amendment mandates government neutrality between
religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion.”
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
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Dec 8, 2008, 05:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Well said.

I think Atheism is all well and good, it just seems most of the people who proclaim themselves Atheists have a huuuge chip on their shoulder about religions in general. Are one of the tenants of Atheism that you must belittle and ridicule everyone who doesn't want to give Dawkins a hummer?

Human nature caused the ugliness in this world. Greed, corruption, malice....these are not ideas born from religious doctrine. Without the concept of god we would still murder each other in the most brutal of fashions at all times.
That's why we don't need laws. We just need religion to protect us from murdering each other. You know all the Buddhist running around killing each other because they don't believe in God.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
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Dec 8, 2008, 05:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
That's why we don't need laws. We just need religion to protect us from murdering each other. You know all the Buddhist running around killing each other because they don't believe in God.
I think you've misread sek's post. He didn't say religion keeps us from murdering each other. He said nothing will keep people from murdering each other, because it's in our nature, so it's silly to blame religion.
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Dec 8, 2008, 05:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
I think you've misread sek's post. He didn't say religion keeps us from murdering each other. He said nothing will keep people from murdering each other, because it's in our nature, so it's silly to blame religion.
Maybe he should've said "With or without the concept of God" to make it clearer.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
June 2001: 132,047,000 employed
June 2003: 129,839,000 employed
2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
nonhuman
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Dec 8, 2008, 06:03 PM
 
I just read the wikipedia page on atheism and actually found it quite interesting. I highly recommend that people here read it, especially those who think they know exactly what specific thing atheism is or what all atheists believe.
     
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Dec 8, 2008, 06:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by red rocket View Post
By ‘fully turned on’, I mean to suggest that if the smartest men on the planet are only using ten per cent of their brains, and the occasional freak genius hits maybe eleven or twelve, then certainly, anyone even using as little as fifty per cent of their potential, should be capable of feats more impressive than the ‘God’ of the average Muslim, Christian, or Jew.
Maybe only people who claim that we only use ten percent of our brains use that amount?

I'll refer you to Neuroscience for KIDS.

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Dec 8, 2008, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE View Post
People kill each other daily over a wrong look, drugs, pure spite, or nothing at all. Prove otherwise.
Ah yes. People are dicks even without, still... it's just the scale of things that goes so horribly wrong when you add religion into the mix.


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Dec 8, 2008, 06:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
The difference here is that some Atheists say "There is no God or Gods" as apposed to "The evidence for a God or Gods isn't there."
Now you are arguing semantics. Should you be agnostic about everything (Shaddim style)?

"There is no Santa Clause" = Arrogance?

"There probably is no Santa Clause" = Non-arrogance?

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Dec 8, 2008, 06:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
The difference here is that some Atheists say "There is no God or Gods" as apposed to "The evidence for a God or Gods isn't there."
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Now you are arguing semantics. Should you be agnostic about everything (Shaddim style)?

"There is no Santa Clause" = Arrogance?

"There probably is no Santa Clause" = Non-arrogance?
In this case, the semantics are crucial. Stating categorically "there is no God or Gods," is in itself a statement of a belief. Stating "the evidence isn't there" is a statement of fact. This is very important. It is indeed arrogance (and a belief) to state that there can be no deity, while it is much more logical to state that there is no solid evidence for the existence of a deity.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Dec 8, 2008, 06:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - View Post
Ah yes. People are dicks even without, still... it's just the scale of things that goes so horribly wrong when you add religion into the mix.

And it can be much worse with a complete absence of religion.



     
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Dec 8, 2008, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
In this case, the semantics are crucial. Stating categorically "there is no God or Gods," is in itself a statement of a belief. Stating "the evidence isn't there" is a statement of fact. This is very important. It is indeed arrogance (and a belief) to state that there can be no deity, while it is much more logical to state that there is no solid evidence for the existence of a deity.
You didn't address my second point: Should we be agnostic about everything? If not, why is a deity getting a special status?

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Dec 8, 2008, 06:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
And it can be much worse with a complete absence of religion.



Chongo, is that you?

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