[stupendousman]

Stimulus�Concession - The Page by Mark Halperin – TIME.com

Biden tells "Meet the Press" that "everyone guessed wrong" on the impact of the stimulus, economy was worse off than anyone thought.
Backs away from the estimate that the funds could create or save 3.5 million jobs, instead promises 600,000 by the end of the summer.

Um, no. Everyone did not "guess wrong." There was a huge chorus singing the song of "failure" when Obama and the Democrats decided to forgo responsible action and instead forced through the "porkulus" spending bill intended to achieve a multitude of long term Democrat social goals (that we can't afford) instead of directly attacking the recession. They continue down the wrong path by STILL outlining all the expensive new programs they will implement that the economy can not afford.

It was explained ad infinitum that the plan which did little to put money back into the hands of consumers and didn't even spend any kind of significant chunk until years down the road would do little for the economy. Republicans told them. Non-partisan Economists told them. Even some of Obama's cheerleader's in the media wondered openly if this was the right way to go. Obama bet that that Economy would fix itself, and went on with his plan that actually is hurting the economy instead of helping it.

This is on par with Obama falsely explaining before the election that no one knew that the "surge" would be successful as an excuse for voting against it. Can I explain away all my bad judgements in real life by just lying and saying that no one else would have done different?

Could someone loan these guys a clue? How soon till 2012?

[Wiskedjak]

Biden lies for exactly the same reasons that Obama, Bush, Cheney, Clinton, Gore and every other politician in existence lie.

[ctt1wbw]

Sure, but did you actually think spending trillions on pork would grow the economy? Government spending doesn't grow the economy, private sector spending grows the economy. I bought a new pair of Birkenstocks a few months back. I did. Not Obama, and not Biden. I did. That's called the private sector.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by ctt1wbw 

Sure, but did you actually think spending trillions on pork would grow the economy? Government spending doesn't grow the economy, private sector spending grows the economy. I bought a new pair of Birkenstocks a few months back. I did. Not Obama, and not Biden. I did. That's called the private sector.

Actually, money spent grows the economy, whether it's private or government money. Money doesn't know whether it's in private or government hands. It was indeed federal tax dollars, BTW, that built the world's greatest economy after WWII, when we built the federal highway system, the National Institutes of Health, the VA, and on and on. Sometime in the 1960s, movement conservatives decided they would rather keep that money for a few of themselves, and they started a campaign, which was largely successful until recently, to convince people that trickle-down economics works, and that government was evil. Ronald Reagan was excellent at that, making up the myth of the welfare mother (read; black) driving a Cadillac (which of course was a convenient, although largely untrue, stereotype).

The "free market" myth has been shattered, thanks to the recent financial melt-down on Wall Street, and many of the shameful, and illegal, acts committed by the charlatans running many of our largest corporations. Hopefully more Americans will wake up and realize that they don't get something for nothing. Of course many of you here weren't around then, so you'd not know anything but the lies you've been fed all your lives.

[BadKosh]

The Financial meltdown didn't just happen, it was an orchestrated move by the Dems.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

It was indeed federal tax dollars, BTW, that built the world's greatest economy after WWII

Actually, it was debt which built that economy (care of Woodrow Wilson, D). A debt which is now begging to be repaid.

[ctt1wbw]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

Actually, money spent grows the economy, whether it's private or government money. Money doesn't know whether it's in private or government hands. It was indeed federal tax dollars, BTW, that built the world's greatest economy after WWII, when we built the federal highway system, the National Institutes of Health, the VA, and on and on. Sometime in the 1960s, movement conservatives decided they would rather keep that money for a few of themselves, and they started a campaign, which was largely successful until recently, to convince people that trickle-down economics works, and that government was evil. Ronald Reagan was excellent at that, making up the myth of the welfare mother (read; black) driving a Cadillac (which of course was a convenient, although largely untrue, stereotype).

The "free market" myth has been shattered, thanks to the recent financial melt-down on Wall Street, and many of the shameful, and illegal, acts committed by the charlatans running many of our largest corporations. Hopefully more Americans will wake up and realize that they don't get something for nothing. Of course many of you here weren't around then, so you'd not know anything but the lies you've been fed all your lives.

Wall Street just refers to the stock market, which is nothing more than a publicly traded forum to stocks. It has nothing to do with the economy. If you're rich and the stock market goes down, then where's the connection? If you're not rich and you're not in on the market, then where's the connection? The stock market is a free market economy so to speak.

The free market is not a myth, it just means that you as a consumer are free from government intervention to purchase whatever you want, and you as a producer are free without government intervention to produce whatever you want. That's all the free market economy is.

[Oisín]

Why does Biden lie?

’Roids? Sitting too uncomfortable?

[Uncle Skeleton]

Originally Posted by Stupendousman

Why does Biden lie?

Just think back to when Cheney lied about everyone thinking the Iraq invasion would pay for itself and be over in 6 weeks to 6 months, remember what your response to that was, and there's your answer. What was it?

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton 

Just think back to when Cheney lied about everyone thinking the Iraq invasion would pay for itself and be over in 6 weeks to 6 months, remember what your response to that was, and there's your answer. What was it?

The "war" was over a long time ago. I don't think that anyone planned for the after war "occupation" to only last 6 weeks or so.

In fact, what I do remember is Bush specifically asking at the start for patience be because there where not going to be any quick fixes for our security. It was the left who cried failure when it took more than a week to get us out of Afghanistan, not Cheney.

[ort888]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

The Financial meltdown didn't just happen, it was an orchestrated move by the Dems.

Now we're getting somewhere.

[hyteckit]

I believe people lie in order to avoid telling the truth.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by BadKosh 

The Financial meltdown didn't just happen, it was an orchestrated move by the Dems.

It was orchestrated by the Jews in order to get Obama elected President.

Jews tell Obama what to do.

[ort888]

As a Jew I confirm this as fact. We were keeping it a secret, but it's too late to stop it now. The plan is too far along now to stop the momentum.

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by ort888 

As a Jew I confirm this as fact. We were keeping it a secret, but it's too late to stop it now. The plan is too far along now to stop the momentum.

HA! HA!


What's next? Confirming your plans to take over and control the mainstream media, Hollywood movie industry, and the global financial system?



(And yes, I agree that sarcasm is the only appropriate response to a statement as outrageous as that made by hyteckit.)

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

I believe people lie in order to avoid telling the truth.

Well of course. I understand that.

The answer I was looking for though was "because the truth will show Obama to be clueless".

I guess the bigger question is why I can't find a news story anywhere that points out Biden is lying or gives background on the fact that there was essentially a whole cadre of people, groups and experts who told Obama and Biden they were full of it, showing Biden to be lying.

You know, like how they propped up the liar Joe Wilson to claim that despite the fact that the CIA didn't believe he had any credible information to offer, that he had proof the Bush was lying about something. Of course in the end it was found that Wilson and his wife Valerie Plame lacked any credibility, but it didn't stop the left and the media from trying to paint someone as a liar when they thought it would help their cause.

So the media only points out falsehoods when they think that Republicans are engaging in them? Is that what I should take away from all this?

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

It was orchestrated by the Jews in order to get Obama elected President.

Jews tell Obama what to do.

Rev. Wright says "them Jews(Axelrod and Emmanuel) won't let me talk to Obama"
Rev. Wright: "Them Jews" Won't Let Me Talk To Obama | Political Hotsheet - CBS News

In an interview with The Daily Press of Virginia, Reverend Jeremiah Wright said that "Jews" are keeping him from talking to President Obama, a former member of the pastor's church.

"Them Jews aren't going to let him talk to me," Wright said. "I told my baby daughter, that he'll talk to me in five years when he's a lame duck, or in eight years when he's out of office."

[besson3c]

... Wait a minute... I think I'm starting to see a pattern to stupendousman's posts here guys, let me know if you guys notice the same thing or if I'm just out in left field....

... Democrat... bad... ?


I wonder if ebuddy will sit this one out since he agreed that the stimulus worked to slow the economic downturn.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

... Wait a minute... I think I'm starting to see a pattern to besson3c's posts here guys...

...whenever his points get shot down, he'll just spam the forum with unfunny snipes.

...whenever any Dem gets caught in a lie, he'll attack stupendousman and people who aren't even in the thread rather than address the actual issue.

[besson3c]

I'm flattered that you thought to imagine points I would make, Crash!

P.S. my unfunny snipe was my first post to this thread. It was meant to simply point out the repetitive nature and pattern of stupendousman's posts, not to comment on the issue itself.

[sek929]

Politicians lie?

I'm....speechless...

[BadKosh]

Biden lies because he's too stupid to know what he's talking about. It's not like he ever had a job where KNOWING FACTS AND DETAILS mattered. Biden makes Quayle look smart.

[besson3c]

Look guys, if you really want to have this debate you will really have to wade into both sides of the equation and make intellectual arguments, not just argue your conclusions louder and more frequently, cranking up the dogma and aggression as necessary...

The stimulus bill was basically an attempt to trade-off debt for a faster economic recovery, in theory. You can take this on by arguing whether the principle of stimulus can work in general (although I think that would be difficult), or whether its application here was wise. If you do the latter, you need to account for the alternative of not doing anything. Say the economy were to go down the toilet over the course of several years rather than a condensed time span. What are the costs in the short and long term of letting this downturn run its course, rather than trying to expedite it? How would this affect interest on our debt?

There are so many questions here, so many scenarios, so much to account for. If you really want to make an airtight case, you need to try (as do we all).

If, on the other hand, you want to make the case that the stimulus plan was basically a good idea, but you have serious grievances with where that money is going, make that case. It seems like it's been a while since we discussed this, so I don't know if your attention has shifted focus.

Until we are serious about really delving into these issues and recognizing the complexity of all of this without this impenetrable wall of dogma and examining all of these balances as best we can, I'm uninterested in arguing the same repetitive conclusions and dogma.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Say the economy were to go down the toilet over the course of several years rather than a condensed time span. What are the costs in the short and long term of letting this downturn run its course, rather than trying to expedite it? How would this affect interest on our debt?

Wait...did someone actually make the claim that the point of the stimulus bill is to screw the economy ASAP and get us on the road to rebuilding it sooner?

[besson3c]

... and I'm the one being accused of unfunny snipes!

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

... and I'm the one being accused of unfunny snipes!

Not a snipe, 100% serious. That's how I interpreted your post. What did you mean to say?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

Not a snipe, 100% serious. That's how I interpreted your post. What did you mean to say?

Expedite as in expedite the downturn + recovery, not expedite the stimulus spending. Is that were my post caused confusion?

[BadKosh]

Lets not confuse the inept statements and stupid ideas of ALL the 0bama Admin with the embarrassing blather from Biden. The VP has quite a history of opening his mouth and saying pretty much anything he thinks will make an impact.

[besson3c]

Don't you clowns want to make more out of threads like this? Don't you clowns want to not waste your time here and feeling like something has actually been accomplished? That you've been challenged? That you've learned something? That you understand another perspective a little better? That you understand a complex system a little better?

I knew where this thread was going right from its inception. Thank goodness you clowns have my leadership to help steer you away from poop that you don't even know is poop yet! We could sit here all day and come up with one liners about who is a liar, who isn't a liar, who lies more, who doesn't lie, whether Democrats lie more, Republicans lie more, whether this lie is not serious compared to others, whether it's not terribly profound to point out a lie when all politicians tend to lie, etc. etc. etc., blabitty blab blab...

We've done that before. You can have a back and forth of one liners and knee jerky comments with anybody... Is that really all you want? Are you content with going to bed at night knowing that you bored poor old besson3c to tears? Of course not! Well then, stop being boring!

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

P.S. my unfunny snipe was my first post to this thread. It was meant to simply point out the repetitive nature and pattern of stupendousman's posts, not to comment on the issue itself.

P.P.S- my pointing out your unfunny sniping was meant to simply point out the repetitive nature and pattern of YOUR posts.

P.P.P S- Of course you weren't commenting on the issue itself.

P.P.P.P.S-But then, you already knew all of this.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Expedite as in expedite the downturn + recovery

That's how I interpreted it - "the point of the stimulus bill is to screw the economy ASAP (read: expedite the downturn) and get us on the road to rebuilding it sooner (read: + recovery)."

Did supporters of the stimulus bill make this claim?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Laminar 

That's how I interpreted it - "the point of the stimulus bill is to screw the economy ASAP (read: expedite the downturn) and get us on the road to rebuilding it sooner (read: + recovery)."

Did supporters of the stimulus bill make this claim?

If you want to make the argument that the stimulus has been making the economy even worse, you are welcome to make that argument. I'll take any sort of coherent argument at this point...

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

P.S. my unfunny snipe was my first post to this thread. It was meant to simply point out the repetitive nature and pattern of stupendousman's posts, not to comment on the issue itself.

I laugh.

Besson jumping into threads without debating the subject at hand in order to personally critique posters themselves. Talk about a "pattern"!

The irony is thick enough to cut wih a knife!

Ps. I hadn't yet read Crash's response before posting. Kudos for noting the same clownish behvior.

[besson3c]

Great, I agree completely.

Now that we've sorted that out, how about we actually start having productive discussions?

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

If you want to make the argument that the stimulus has been making the economy even worse, you are welcome to make that argument. I'll take any sort of coherent argument at this point...

Did supporters of the stimulus bill make this claim?

[besson3c]

As always, it was nice talking with you, Laminar.

[Laminar]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

As always, it was nice talking with you, Laminar.

You keep trying to read some alternate meaning buried deep within my posts. Take them at face value and you'll do a lot better.

[besson3c]

The responsibility of effective communicated is shared among speaker/writer and listener/reader, Laminar. I politely clarified what I was trying to say, you did not respond in kind.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Great, I agree completely.

Now that we've sorted that out, how about we actually start having productive discussions?

I tried.

You balked.

[besson3c]

I guess we have a different as to what constitutes a productive conversation then, huh? My version is something other than "ask a leading question, and dive in with an intense rant full of inflammatory, reactionary language, and do this a few times each week until your readers are numb"

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

My version is something other than "ask a leading question, and dive in with an intense rant full of inflammatory, reactionary language, and do this a few times each week until your readers are numb"

You are the biggest hypocrite these forums have ever seen.

Even your last few threads were exactly that. The only difference is you love to crap all over everyone else's threads, and then lecture everyone about how to have a productive discussion- ironically while you -as usual- do everything but add anything productive. Give it a freakin' rest already.

Face it, the only thing you don't like about this thread is the subject of it has a D after their name, not an R. That's it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

You are the biggest hypocrite these forums have ever seen.

Even your last few threads were exactly that. The only difference is you love to crap all over everyone else's threads, and then lecture everyone about how to have a productive discussion- ironically while you -as usual- do everything but add anything productive. Give it a freakin' rest already.

Face it, the only thing you don't like about this thread is the subject of it has a D after their name, not an R. That's it.

This place is about as predictable as it is boring!

Anyone of us could have predicted this would have come down to the old "can't make a point without putting the poster making a point under an intense microscope, glazing over the point and making the thread about the poster's history and personality and whether he/she should be making this point"! The ol' MacNN PL vetting machine...

I'm not under trial here. There is no reason why any one of us can't make a valid point without having to answer to the official MacNN jury. My history and personality doesn't make what I said any less (or more) true. I'm sure I'm a hypocrite. Now that I've made this disclaimer, perhaps we can actually work on being less boring?

[Dork.]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

It was orchestrated by the Jews in order to get Obama elected President.

Jews tell Obama what to do.

That's exactly what he wants you to think. Confusion permits him to achieve his aims that much more easily. But I can tell you what's really going on....

People think it's the Jews who tell Obama what to do.....

but it's really The Juice!



Here he is preparing to administer the secret "Oath of Office" to the new President....
(and I bet he didn't need to do it twice....)

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

This place is about as predictable as it is boring!

If it's so boring, why are you here?

And who ever told you that your narcissistic lecturing of everyone about what constitutes a discussion wasn't boring as all hell?

[besson3c]

Official prediction... you heard it here first, folks:

More mocking, some form of criticism directed at me, and shortly thereafter more status quo.

There is a reason why many MacNN members don't even bother coming here, it's because it's nearly impossible to have a productive conversation in here. If this **** really floats your boat and I'm in the minority, I guess I'll butt out and let you guys have at it. However, I'll have a hard time sitting still while some of you guys bitch about the media, because it's this sort of shallow political bickering and knee jerk conversation that feeds a shallow media that does not investigate to the depths in which you'd like. Why should they, that sort of thing requires serious intellectual discourse! They don't need to work that hard to get tires spinning and the usual sorts of people bickering away at each other...

[Dork.]

Heh heh.
You said "butt"....

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

If it's so boring, why are you here?

Because I hate intellect to go to waste, and because part of me feels that my coaxing out good discussion would so some good. We have had good discussion in here before, it just doesn't happen very often.

And who ever told you that your narcissistic lecturing of everyone about what constitutes a discussion wasn't boring as all hell?

It is boring as all hell, but it is a means to an end. Sometimes I lack the optimism to think that there is an end.

[besson3c]

Here it is again:

The stimulus bill was basically an attempt to trade-off debt for a faster economic recovery, in theory. You can take this on by arguing whether the principle of stimulus can work in general (although I think that would be difficult), or whether its application here was wise. If you do the latter, you need to account for the alternative of not doing anything. Say the economy were to go down the toilet over the course of several years rather than a condensed time span. What are the costs in the short and long term of letting this downturn run its course, rather than trying to expedite it? How would this affect interest on our debt?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Dork. 

Heh heh.
You said "butt"....

hehe heheh.. yeah!

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

This place is about as predictable as it is boring!

...coming from one of the biggest contributors of predictable and boring.

I posted information. I stated an opinion about the information. You start dissecting ME instead of the point of debate.

Shower. Rinse. Repeat.

It would be one thing if this was some kind of isolated incident. The fact is that it's part of a pattern. If patterns and predictability bother you, then "physician, heal thyself."