[stupendousman]

Really.

How many "errors" can one man make in reporting income, gifts and other forms of wealth before it becomes clear that he's trying to illegally hide the fact that he's getting rich from his political connections and assistance to high rollers?

It seems like every couple of months a new revelation appears where Mr. Rangel had forgotten something of value that belonged to him.

OOPS! CHARLIE FORGOT THIS $1M HOUSE - New York Post

Charlie Rangel Hides Income and Assets - WSJ.com

I know being a tax cheat is all the rage with Democrats these days, while telling the rest of the "little people" that they have to pay more, but at what point will the laws on the books start taking effect for these people and they start going to jail like everyone else who refuses to report their wealth? Quite an example Democrat leadership is providing there (and whatever Republicans I'm not aware of and did not name who have done the same and gotten away with it).

[besson3c]

When will you give up on trying to come up with some simplistic generalization that relates to Democrats and Republicans? Should I say that having weird sexual affairs is all the rage with Republicans these days (save John Edwards)? *People* cheat, cover up, have affairs, say stupid things, etc. This is not exclusive Democrat/Republican territory, and no matter how many examples you can come up with of people doing this sort of stuff and their party affiliation, it still doesn't change this fundamental truth.

Pace your rage.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Pace your rage.

Don't you think Rangel's "tax mistakes" are inexcusable, especially for someone who is in charge of writing / legislating tax laws ?

It really doesn't matter if it was an honest mistake or a blatant attempt at cheating, someone who makes that kind of honest mistakes should not be heading up a tax-writing committee.

And let's be real clear: there would be no leniency if you or me had made those kind of tax reporting mistakes. We'd be sued by the IRS ASAP.

-t

[besson3c]

Turtle: I didn't say that it was excusable, I was just addressing the highly predictable tendencies of stupendousman and others in here to use a story like this to go off on a partisan diatribe.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Turtle: I didn't say that it was excusable, I was just addressing the highly predictable tendencies of stupendousman and others in here to use a story like this to go off on a partisan diatribe.

Ok, but still: don't you find it curious how many democrats had tax issues this year ?

Have you ever heard of so many high-profile Republicans being convicted / forced to resign / forced to withdraw applications than Democrats this year ?

And please, don't tell me it's the high level of scrutiny. The Dems were as "watchdogish" when the Bush administration was in power as the Reps are now with Obama. Nothing has changed there.

-t

[besson3c]

I don't deny the pattern, I deny that there are any meaningful conclusions.

[Chongo]

I have heard it put this way: "Some people have a sense of shame/honor while others don't"

It's also part of Alinsky's rules

Rule 4: Make opponents live up to their own book of rules. “You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”

When you have no code of morals, no one can call you a hypocrite.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't deny the pattern, I deny that there are any meaningful conclusions.

What meaningful conclusion ?

The tax law doesn't differentiate between "sloppiness, forgetting to include something" and tax evasion.

Explain to me: why should Rangel get special treatment ?

-t

[hyteckit]

I'm still waiting for John Ensign and Mark Sanford to resign.

Rule 4: Make opponents live up to their own book of rules. “You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

I'm still waiting for John Ensign and Mark Sanford to resign.

WTF ?

So you equate moral failure with failure to pay taxes ?

Is "not paying taxes" just a immoral thing, but not a criminal offense ?
The tax code (which Rangel influences more than most others) begs to differ.

-t

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

WTF ?

So you equate moral failure with failure to pay taxes ?

Is "not paying taxes" just a immoral thing, but not a criminal offense ?
The tax code (which Rangel influences more than most others) begs to differ.

-t

Chongo brought up morals and about being a hypocrite. Ensign and Sanford comes to mind.


Besides how different is not paying taxes and using state taxes for your own rendezvous?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Chongo brought up morals and about being a hypocrite. Ensign and Sanford comes to mind.

Besides how different is not paying taxes and using state taxes for your own rendezvous?

IMO, both is wrong. Both need to be dealt with, and the price paid.

-t

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

When will you give up on trying to come up with some simplistic generalization that relates to Democrats and Republicans? Should I say that having weird sexual affairs is all the rage with Republicans these days (save John Edwards)?

If there's a pattern of Republicans doing this, it's illegal, and they are not having to suffer the same consequences that everyone else has to who decides to engage in that behavior, sure. If you've got one specific instance in mind where a Republican continually was found to have engaged in this illegal and "weird" sexual behavior and remained in office and had no legal action taken against them, then you'd have a valid point to make and I probably wouldn't object to your making it.

What I do know however is that you are as predictable as they come. When someone who agrees with you politically has done something extremely stupid and you can't defend them, you try and change the subject and attack the messenger. It wasn't even that clever the first time you took this tactic, and after about the 20th time it grows so tiresome.....really.

Get back to us when you have an actual comment regarding the debate at hand and not some silly attempt to shift focus and attack the messenger.

[besson3c]

You are free to make as many crazy leaps as you want stupendousman, but you cannot prove that I have any interest whatsoever in defending Rangel. This is your assumption.

[BadKosh]

"When pigs fly" i think is the correct answer.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You are free to make as many crazy leaps as you want stupendousman, but you cannot prove that I have any interest whatsoever in defending Rangel. This is your assumption.

Then give us your opinion, and don't try to derail.

What do you think should happen to Rangel ?
And why ?

-t

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

You are free to make as many crazy leaps as you want stupendousman, but you cannot prove that I have any interest whatsoever in defending Rangel. This is your assumption.

I KNOW you don't have an interest in defending Rangel. I ALREADY SAID THAT in the thread above.

You have no interest in this thread at all. You only have an interest in "killing the messenger" and engaging in ad hominem attacks because YOU CAN NOT defend Rangel from what he's been accused of and you have nothing else to ad to the discussion.

I really think you are cracking up and need professional help. Seriously.

[besson3c]

This is my last post here. I made my point clear, that it is not fair to use this story as a launch pad for adding to your list of all that is wrong with the Democrats. That's all I had intended to say, and I think I made my point. I don't care about Rangel. (I will add that I did chuckle over you accusing me of ad hominems and in the same breath suggesting that I need professional help, but whatever)

Ta ta!

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

This is my last post here. I made my point clear, that it is not fair to use this story as a launch pad for adding to your list of all that is wrong with the Democrats. That's all I had intended to say, and I think I made my point. I don't care about Rangel. (I will add that I did chuckle over you accusing me of ad hominems and in the same breath suggesting that I need professional help, but whatever)

Ta ta!

Blabla, you're weaseling out.

Nobody used this as a launchpad, EXCEPT YOU.

Everyone else wanted to discuss what should happen to Rangel. YOU wanted to make it a crusade against people that don't like Democrats.

I'm sorry, but that's trolling at it's best.

-t

[besson3c]

Turtle: exhibit A - centering out Democrats, first post:

I know being a tax cheat is all the rage with Democrats these days, while telling the rest of the "little people" that they have to pay more, but at what point will the laws on the books start taking effect for these people and they start going to jail like everyone else who refuses to report their wealth? Quite an example Democrat leadership is providing there (and whatever Republicans I'm not aware of and did not name who have done the same and gotten away with it).

Damn, I said I was done. I guess I lied... well, starting.. now!!

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Turtle: exhibit A - centering out Democrats, first post:

I don't see that. It's part of the discussion of politicians and taxes:

Dozens of Democrats this year failed to do their taxes right.
How many Republicans got caught with that "mistake" this year: 0

So why is this discussion not ok ?

-t

[besson3c]

Because it's not a Democrat/Republican issue, simple as that. Whatever patterns exist are incidental, you cannot draw any meaningful conclusions from them.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Because it's not a Democrat/Republican issue, simple as that. Whatever patterns exist are incidental, you cannot draw any meaningful conclusions from them.

Well, in 2009 and with the Obama administration, it clearly is.

Show me the many high-level Republicans this year that had tax issues.

Re: meaningful conclusion
I agree. To say that only Democrats cheat and Republicans don't is wrong and too simplistic.
But I think it's fair to say that the Democrats under Obama are by far not the saints and faithful servants as they like to be portrayed.

-t

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Turtle: I didn't say that it was excusable, I was just addressing the highly predictable tendencies of stupendousman and others in here to use a story like this to go off on a partisan diatribe.

Honestly besson, this sounds a bit like averting the issue from; "Rangel has no business in office at this point" to "but Republicans do it too". I know you find the blanketing of Democrats to be one-sided and I might agree with you, but this should not distract from the central figure of the complaint; Rangel.

[Big Mac]

And Rangel writes our tax law. He has the ability to literally destroy lives through the choices he makes in crafting the tax code, but he can't follow the laws he places on the country. What a vile, corrupt excuse for a human being.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Because it's not a Democrat/Republican issue, simple as that. Whatever patterns exist are incidental, you cannot draw any meaningful conclusions from them.

I did not mean that only Democrats cheat on their taxes and it appears that most here understood that. I'm quite sure Republicans do as well and even asked for any prominent Republicans I might not be aware of to be included in the discussion. The fact that no one has seemed to be able to come up with any kind of supports the broader point.

As mentioned, there IS A PATTERN here of late that seems to be limited to Democrats: getting caught and not having to pay any real penalty. Not only not having to pay any legal penalty, but getting to stay in office. That last part is what adds insult to injury. It used to be that when someone was caught cheating on their taxes like Rangel that they'd get to resign, and then they wouldn't prosecute as part of the deal. I guess even resigning isn't necessary these days as they've made it offcial that our elected leaders can just violate the law without any real retribution.

I also don't think pointing out the pattern or discussing if someone is going to do the "right thing" and force Rangel out is simply a matter of trying to say "all Democrats do it" unless you are just looking for a simplistic reason to dismiss the discussion because it makes you uncomfortable.

Again, if the Republicans have engaged in a pattern of illegal behavior and gotten away with it, feel free to post. I won't suggest that you're saying ALL Republicans do it (unless you actually say that). I'll understand that you want the ones that DON'T to do the right thing and get rid of those that do. I think that's the least we can ask of the political parties.

There are probably 4 Democrats that I can think of off the top of my head that should not be in office right now because it's been made abundantly clear by multiple legal indiscretions, huge financial conflicts of interest, complete incompetence/dishonesty or admitted wrongdoing that they are not capable of serving.

Rangel, Geitner, Dodd and Frank. There may be more, I just can't think of them right now. If there are really similar embarrassments on the Republican side, I'm all for someone starting a thread and discussing it.

[ort888]

Republicans are just better at cheating on their taxes.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by ort888 

Republicans are just better at cheating on their taxes.

That's quite possible.

They have to be better because they know if they get caught they'll be forced out of office and likely face dire legal circumstances. Are you suggesting that the Democrats don't feel the need to "step up their game" because they know they can just violate the law, get caught, and get away with it?

People are going to try to game the system. The only incentive there is to discourage people from doing it more is for there to be negative ramifications when CAUGHT. Right now, it doesn't look like there's a reason for Democrats not to keep engaging in financial conflicts of interest, tax evasion, or anything else which might further send our country into a state of legal anarchy. Not to say that all Democrats WILL engage in this sort of behavior, or that Republicans might not try it as well (just as a disclaimer for those who would rather kill the messenger than discuss the matter at hand).

[ort888]

When will the poor persecuted republicans finally be able to wrangle free from this terrible democratic oppression?

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by ort888 

When will the poor persecuted republicans finally be able to wrangle free from this terrible democratic oppression?

I'd be willing to bet a hefty sum that it will be in 2010.

[Chongo]

As to (R)s who do not resign after being caught doing something wrong, they tend to no get reelected (see Dan Crane) , where (D)s get reelected (see Gerry Studds) Different result from the same event.
We will see what happens to Sanford, Ensign, and Vitter. Craig did not run for reelection.

Any back to to the topic of Charlie Rangel.

Can anyone honestly say if he were Charles O' Rangel (R) from Long Island and had "forgotten" about those properties and business deals, let alone not reported them on his disclosure reports, he would still be in office?

[finboy]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

WTF ?

So you equate moral failure with failure to pay taxes ?

-t

I didn't think there was supposed to be anything wrong with cheating on one's spouse -- isn't that a "private matter?"

Tax cheats, though, hurt everyone else. This isn't a Democrat or Republican thing, it's a criminal thing. And an equity thing; everyone YOU KNOW PERSONALLY would go to jail for the same tax laxity as Geithner and Rangle. In fact, there was a big case decided last week that shows just that. This is another example of "do as we say, not as we do" by the progressive elites. They must be stopped at all costs.

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by finboy 

This is another example of "do as we say, not as we do" by the progressive elites. They must be stopped at all costs.

Listen to this warning; he's absolutely right.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Don't you think Rangel's "tax mistakes" are inexcusable, especially for someone who is in charge of writing / legislating tax laws ?

I think the "tax mistakes" of nearly every Republican and most Democrats is inexcusable. They should all be removed from office. I pay my taxes, they should too. Off shore tax shelters are illegal but they do it anyway.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

I think the "tax mistakes" of nearly every Republican and most Democrats is inexcusable.

You are definitely the king of "Opposite World"!

Your consistency in blindly insisting the exact opposite of a given situation, without a shred of proof, is always good for a laugh. Thanks for that!

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

You are definitely the king of "Opposite World"!

Your consistency in blindly insisting the exact opposite of a given situation, without a shred of proof, is always good for a laugh. Thanks for that!

What world do you live in where rich people don't take advantage tax loop holes placed by politicians supported by special interest groups that make people rich?

[finboy]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

You are definitely the king of "Opposite World"!

It's called "LeftWorld" (TM) and there's no gunslinger played by Yul Brenner. It's scary enough without him!

[Snow-i]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

What world do you live in where rich people don't take advantage tax loop holes placed by politicians supported by special interest groups that make people rich?

The problem is that the politicians are the rich people.

Your implication is right: It doesn't matter which party you belong to. The system is, as it stands, self-corrupting due progressive elitism coming from those who weild power within this country.

As finboy said...It needs to stop. It needs to stop now, before our economy enters an irreconsilible state of corruption and debt.

More spending is not the answer. Less spending. More accountibility for our elected officials. Less fiscal waste. Less federal government control over the finances of our society.

We need to retain the right to our own choices for our own families. With crooks like Rangel running around unchecked, unchallanged, and free to manipulate the laws he himself helped construct...we are doomed.

It doesn't start with Rangel, and it certainly doesn't end with him either. But it needs to be ended where it is blatantly apparent...and so far our government has yet again failed to have our best interests in mind. All the more reason to fight to reduce the power that our government holds over our lives instead of ushering it in based on false promises and ambiguous statements.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by finboy 

It's called "LeftWorld" (TM) and there's no gunslinger played by Yul Brenner. It's scary enough without him!

You honestly think that only Democrats set up tax shelters?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

What world do you live in where rich people don't take advantage tax loop holes placed by politicians supported by special interest groups that make people rich?

Your King of Opposite Land status is matched by your amazing ability to completely miss the point of everything, and 'argue' about some hangup of yours that has nothing to do with anything.

Rangel isn't accused of using a loophole or a tax shelter- he's accused of outright cheating on his taxes to the tune of millions. A tax shelter isn't just failing to report income- that's called fraud.

Try for once actually addressing what's being discussed, rather than some never-never land sidetrack.

[stupendousman]

If the worse Rangel was accused of was taking advantage of a "tax shelter", there wouldn't be any real debate here. He simply "forgot" to report about half of his income, which if found done by any regular person would result in fines and/or prison no less losing your job.

Even if you ignore the fact that he's supposed to actually know the laws regarding this stuff because HE IS IN CHARGE OF THE COMMITTEE that controls them, the fact is that there's a pattern of people finding out about property and income he has that he never reported, then him having to admit that he didn't. The first time you can use the excuse that it was an innocent mistake and have at least an ounce of credibility. Not after the second, third, etc.

The Democrats are setting themselves up as the current "party of corruption" - but not only that. Corrrupt AND INCOMPETENT. When you've got people like Rangle, Geitner, Frank and Dodd either running the areas of government they are in charge of into the ground or simply making it clear that they can't or don't have to follow the same laws they are passing for us "little people" and the leadership of the party don't act appropriately, you aren't going to have anyone to blame but yourselves when you lose your "absolute power".

GOOD LUCK!

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

You honestly think that only Democrats set up tax shelters?

Would you call what Rangel is doing a "tax shelter" or is it tax-evasion? It's clearly tax evasion olePigeon. This isn't the manipulation of a tax-deferred life insurance policy or similar vehicle or loophole, this is straight up book cooking to evade taxes while drafting tax policy the rest of us are expected to adhere to.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by stupendousman 

The Democrats are setting themselves up as the current "party of corruption" - but not only that. Corrrupt AND INCOMPETENT. When you've got people like Rangle, Geitner, Frank and Dodd either running the areas of government they are in charge of into the ground or simply making it clear that they can't or don't have to follow the same laws they are passing for us "little people" and the leadership of the party don't act appropriately, you aren't going to have anyone to blame but yourselves when you lose your "absolute power". GOOD LUCK!

Worse, you surround yourself with self-avowed communists by hand-picking czars advisors at the executive level to marginalize the impact of the legislative. People that were elected by no one and accountable to no one. There is a massive power-grap going on here folks and the Democrats had better wake up and start challenging this Administration. 2010 is going to be another massive transfer of power. I hope we get it right this friggin' time.

[Big Mac]

Why don't we have the following litmus test for Congressmen: Either follow the Constitution as written or get the hell out. Then we could eliminate the life-draining Entitlements that may make grandma happy but that are killing US, eliminate the income tax amendment and the IRS in favor of a constitutionally sound revenue scheme, cut the tax burden dramatically, pay back our debts and grow our economy in a huge way. Who's with me?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Who's with me?

0% of the Democrats, that's for sure.
And probably only a few Republicans.

-t

[Shaddim]

Well, I suppose Rangel's better than Marion Barry.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE 

Your King of Opposite Land status is matched by your amazing ability to completely miss the point of everything, and 'argue' about some hangup of yours that has nothing to do with anything.

When have I "always" completely missed the point of everything? I messed up here because I didn't understand who was doing what. I didn't realize I did it constantly.

Originally Posted by ebuddy 

Would you call what Rangel is doing a "tax shelter" or is it tax-evasion? It's clearly tax evasion olePigeon. This isn't the manipulation of a tax-deferred life insurance policy or similar vehicle or loophole, this is straight up book cooking to evade taxes while drafting tax policy the rest of us are expected to adhere to.

You are correct, I misunderstood what was going.

[stupendousman]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Well, I suppose Rangel's better than Marion Barry.

I nominate Shaddim for the title of "Official Silver Lining Finder" for the PWL!

[Big Mac]

Now FNC is reporting that Rangel inserted into the health care reform bill new even tougher penalties for tax return errors.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Now FNC is reporting that Rangel inserted into the health care reform bill new even tougher penalties for tax return errors.

-t