Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Eric Holder

Eric Holder (Page 4)
Thread Tools
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 7, 2012, 06:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Like I said to wiskedjak; the act of pointing fingers at Congress for wanting answers or pointing fingers at Conservatives for perceived opportunism here only glosses over the fact that an extremely, sloppily-managed program has manifest in the death of scores of Mexicans and a US border patrol agent. The excuses ring pathetic to any normal human being who'd at least want to ensure such mismanagement doesn't occur again. It is not your fault that we don't know what's going on and there's little to debate other than an apparent obstruction of justice that would only bolster speculation. 
No question.

There is absolutely a conspiracy going on. I apologize if I gave the indication I thought differently.

I was responding to stupendousman's allegation the events as we know them are evidence our goal flood Mexico with weapons.
     
201207080725
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Jul 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 8, 2012, 04:30 AM
 
GOP Votes for Contempt as "Fast and Furious" Blows Up in Its Face
ATF agents did not recruit anyone to buy weapons and pass them to criminals, with a single exception: John Dodson, the renegade agent who allegedly blew the whistle on the "Fast & Furious" operation. Against Voth's express instructions, Dodson—who according to Fortune's account was a seemingly insubordinate, slapdash former narcotics cop from Virginia that even his ex-partner describes as "an asshole"—"used $2,500 in ATF funds to purchase six AK Draco pistols from local gun dealers," then passed them on to a suspected gun trafficker, then...went on vacation.
Crowing about Fast & Furious and demanding AG Holder resign or be arrested is not smart enough to follow the chain of evidence.

tl;dr the "whistle blower" dun goofed and is frantically trying to cover up his epic levels of cowboy incompetence.
     
201207080725
Fresh-Faced Recruit
Join Date: Jul 2012
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 8, 2012, 04:31 AM
 
GOP Votes for Contempt as "Fast and Furious" Blows Up in Its Face
ATF agents did not recruit anyone to buy weapons and pass them to criminals, with a single exception: John Dodson, the renegade agent who allegedly blew the whistle on the "Fast & Furious" operation. Against Voth's express instructions, Dodson—who according to Fortune's account was a seemingly insubordinate, slapdash former narcotics cop from Virginia that even his ex-partner describes as "an asshole"—"used $2,500 in ATF funds to purchase six AK Draco pistols from local gun dealers," then passed them on to a suspected gun trafficker, then...went on vacation.
Crowing about Fast & Furious and demanding AG Holder resign or be arrested is not smart enough to follow the chain of evidence.

tl;dr the "whistle blower" dun goofed and is frantically trying to cover up his epic levels of cowboy incompetence.
     
stupendousman  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 9, 2012, 02:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
AFICT, the plan was to conduct things through standard police procedures (which aren't standard ATF procedures).
Straw buyers under surveillance rack up enough buys
You use this to get a warrant for a wire
You use the tapes from the wire to get proof of criminal activity on the people the straw buyers are selling to, and perhaps warrants for more wires.
This assumes that the sellers are using their home phone to talk indiscriminately to criminals about their crimes and who will get the weapons. It's possible that they might have, but chances are if the criminals took all the effort to avoid getting caught back during the Bush administration that they did, that they aren't going to be so sloppy as to reveal evidence of federal crimes over the phone. At that point, the ATF has zero control over where the guns are and were they go and in fact made no attempts to interdict the weapons. Doesn't sound like a reasonable plan to me. Also, if the people they are selling to are Mexicans, what do they do then?

There should be no reason after they got this "proof" and apparently knew who the straw buyers where selling to not be able to interdict the guns. If you have the wire, the tapes, and the evidence - then you show up and nab the buyers and the guns. The program was in effect for over a year - plenty of time to gather evidence - and over 2,000 guns where purposely let walk and in that time they couldn't arrest and indict a single buyer who bought weapons? It could be because the plan they offered wasn't effective - but it was a plan that should have been seen to be ineffective to start with. The fact that after the guns where let walk and violence increased the Obama administration blamed it on a lack of an assault weapons ban (that Obama stated was his goal to reinstate) and then lied about the program existing casts doubts on whether the current explanation (as offered by the Administration's version of the events given by Fortune) is valid given that they had motive, means and opportunity to create an environment which would support their actions in regards to their policies on gun control. Having the plan "fail" in the manner it did would have helped the Administration achieve one of it's political goals. Seeing all the effort to cover-up, it really shouldn't be surprising if this where the case.

Is it possible this was just a huge screw-up that the Justice Department just decided to casually lie about and Eric Holder figured it was worth potentially getting caught over one department's honest mistakes in handling an investigation? Sure, it's possible though it would seem odd for him to go to the trouble to lie to Congress about something he was just peripheral to, and the fact that the guys in charge of the program who know the details where not fired, but where given promotions tends to discount this theory.

Is it possible that after lying about why gun violence increased in Mexico (no assault weapons ban), lying that the program that put them there ever existed, lying about who knew what when, and potentially putting both Obama and Holder in a position to be thrown out of office if it could be shown that they knew about all this prior to Holder lying to Congress - that they were doing it because one of the intended effects of proceeding with the program the way they did was to increase gun violence over the border so that they could act on their preferred political policies? I think that's just as possible given all the effort made to engage in a cover-up.
     
stupendousman  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 9, 2012, 02:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by 201207080725 View Post
GOP Votes for Contempt as "Fast and Furious" Blows Up in Its Face
ATF agents did not recruit anyone to buy weapons and pass them to criminals, with a single exception: John Dodson, the renegade agent who allegedly blew the whistle on the "Fast & Furious" operation. Against Voth's express instructions, Dodson—who according to Fortune's account was a seemingly insubordinate, slapdash former narcotics cop from Virginia that even his ex-partner describes as "an asshole"—"used $2,500 in ATF funds to purchase six AK Draco pistols from local gun dealers," then passed them on to a suspected gun trafficker, then...went on vacation.
Crowing about Fast & Furious and demanding AG Holder resign or be arrested is not smart enough to follow the chain of evidence.
tl;dr the "whistle blower" dun goofed and is frantically trying to cover up his epic levels of cowboy incompetence.
I don't believe it's just a single whistle blower, and one of the things Congress wants is information regarding to some of the employees in question because it appears that there where efforts to smear and retaliate against them for revealing that the Administration was lying about the program.

So, despite the fact that the ATF and Justice Department have been lying about the program for quite some time, they are to be believed in regards to the credibility of a whistle blower?

Really?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 9, 2012, 04:11 AM
 
@stupendousman

The problem wasn't the plan, the problem was AUSA Hurley dragging his feet. That's the choke point. Everything went through him.

As I've said, why he did this is going to be conjecture, because unlike his bosses, he's not saying anything.

Is the scenario he tried to flood Mexico with guns possible? Sure. Is that the only possibilty? No.
     
stupendousman  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 9, 2012, 05:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@stupendousman
The problem wasn't the plan, the problem was AUSA Hurley dragging his feet. That's the choke point. Everything went through him.
Who was Hurley's boss? Why was he "dragging his feet", not allowing the weapons in question to be interdicted? Why did his boss allow this? Surely Hurley was fired after his roll in creating this fiasco? Right?

As I've said, why he did this is going to be conjecture, because unlike his bosses, he's not saying anything.
Is the scenario he tried to flood Mexico with guns possible? Sure. Is that the only possibilty? No.
I agree. I'm not discounting the possibility that the whole thing was just an incompetently run SNAFU.

What I am saying is though that the way that Holder, et. al. are stonewalling and risking their jobs (and maybe legal jeopardy) would lead one to believe that this isn't simply a case where a AUSA or ATF supervisor just screwed up and would normally just be held accountable. Especially given the fact that if you WANTED increased gun violence in order to justify cracking down - this is how one would likely do it with plausible deniability... unless of course you had whistleblowers letting the cat out of the bag.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 9, 2012, 06:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
Who was Hurley's boss? Why was he "dragging his feet", not allowing the weapons in question to be interdicted? Why did his boss allow this? Surely Hurley was fired after his roll in creating this fiasco? Right?
I'm to lazy to look up who was over Hurley in the chain-of-command. He didn't report directly to Holder though.
No idea.
No idea.
No, he wasn't. Which in the absence of clarification of the situation from him. Is unacceptable to me.


Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
I agree. I'm not discounting the possibility that the whole thing was just an incompetently run SNAFU.
What I am saying is though that the way that Holder, et. al. are stonewalling and risking their jobs (and maybe legal jeopardy) would lead one to believe that this isn't simply a case where a AUSA or ATF supervisor just screwed up and would normally just be held accountable. Especially given the fact that if you WANTED increased gun violence in order to justify cracking down - this is how one would likely do it with plausible deniability... unless of course you had whistleblowers letting the cat out of the bag.
I'd say you were onto something if people didn't constantly commit worse crimes to cover up lesser crimes.
     
ebuddy
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: midwest
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 9, 2012, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm to lazy to look up who was over Hurley in the chain-of-command. He didn't report directly to Holder though.
No idea.
No idea.
No, he wasn't. Which in the absence of clarification of the situation from him. Is unacceptable to me.
I'd say you were onto something if people didn't constantly commit worse crimes to cover up lesser crimes.
Lesser crimes? We're talking about multiple people dead subego. Why try to marginalize the implications of this failure? If they're committing a crime here, it's to cover the nature of what could be among the more heinous crimes committed.
ebuddy
     
stupendousman  (op)
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2003
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 9, 2012, 06:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Lesser crimes? We're talking about multiple people dead subego. Why try to marginalize the implications of this failure? If they're committing a crime here, it's to cover the nature of what could be among the more heinous crimes committed.
+1

We've either got incompetence which Eric Holder thinks is important enough for theObama administration to illegally cover-up, or corruption for illegal acts they are trying to illegally cover-up.

Take you pick. Either way, we aren't dealing with guys who just made an honest mistake.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 10, 2012, 05:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by ebuddy View Post
Lesser crimes? We're talking about multiple people dead subego. Why try to marginalize the implications of this failure? If they're committing a crime here, it's to cover the nature of what could be among the more heinous crimes committed.
I'm not marginalizing anything. Screw-ups rarely rank "among the more heinous crimes committed".

This goes doubly when the alternate scenario is we intentionally flooded Mexico with weapons.


The question was: why are these people covering up if all they did is screw-up?

If this screw up is in fact "among the more heinous crimes committed", then there's your answer for why they would lie. This is in opposition to the claim the only reason they'd lie is to cover-up an intentional flooding of Mexico with weapons.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
Jul 10, 2012, 05:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by stupendousman View Post
+1
We've either got incompetence which Eric Holder thinks is important enough for theObama administration to illegally cover-up, or corruption for illegal acts they are trying to illegally cover-up.
Take you pick. Either way, we aren't dealing with guys who just made an honest mistake.
So far, the first scenario seems most likely to me. Never try to explain through conspiracy what can more easily be explained by stupidity.

I'm not entirely discounting the second scenario however, and even if none of this ever happened, Holder is still a horrible AG.
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Jul 10, 2012, 10:19 AM
 
Holder quashed a slam dunk case of voter intimidation against the Black Panthers in Philadelphia.

[VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU[/VIDEO]
45/47
     
OAW
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: May 2001
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Sep 19, 2012, 12:44 PM
 
A long-awaited report on the U.S. government’s controversial gun-trafficking operation known as “Fast and Furious” released Wednesday found no evidence that Attorney General Eric Holder knew of the botched effort to trace the flow of guns to Mexico’s drug cartels prior to its public unraveling in January 2011.

The report by the Justice Department’s Inspector General Michael Horowitz said there is "no evidence that ... Holder was informed about Operation Fast and Furious, or learned about the tactics employed by ATF in the investigation" before Congress began pressing him for information about it in early 2011.

The inspector general did determine that the acting deputy attorney general, Gary Grindler, received a briefing about the ill-fated gun-tracing operation in March 2010, but that the briefing "failed to alert Grindler to problems in the investigation."

The report also concluded that the operation was "seriously flawed and supervised irresponsibly" by federal officials in Arizona, who allowed it to continue in hopes of scoring a big case against a gun-trafficking organization despite obvious problems.
Investigation finds no evidence AG Eric Holder knew of 'Fast and Furious' gun-running sting | NBCNews.com

OAW
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 1, 2012, 05:28 AM
 
Univision story on Fast and Furious. (aired 09/30/2012)

*****Video contains Graphic images*****

Fast and Furious Scandal: New Details Emerge on How the U.S. Government Armed Mexican Drug Cartels

Link has the same Univision story aired 9/30/2012
57 Previously Undiscovered Fast and Furious Guns Used in Mexican Crimes
45/47
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
Oct 2, 2012, 07:59 AM
 
Two Border Patrol agents shot, one killed. No info if F&F guns involved.


Love the natural!

45/47
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:47 AM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,