[Boondoggle]

Originally posted by Chuckit:
More to the point, isn't the idea of the universal menu bar not to have redundant, moving commands stuck on every window?

In theory you're right. In practice with apps like Mail, iTunes etc that are typically one-window-wonders it would be inconvenient to go to the menu bar for every action.

As pointed out above you can hide the toolbar, but that space is bought with convenience.

bd

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by CaptainHaddock:
Off-Topic:

OreoCookie, you used to live in Nagoya, Japan? I'm planning to move there in a few months!

Cool thing. It's a great city, clean, with lots of things to do. Obviously it can't compete with Tokyo or Osaka, but you can do almost everything: have fun, shopping, traveling (perfect location, right in the middle), but it still is (probably now: was, with the Expo and all the tourists) a big city.

Will you work there or go to university?

[Sydney Tsai]

Originally posted by TETENAL:
New GUI rules for Tiger:

• Standard apps: Aqua (only to be used if an app doesn't fit into one of the other categories)
• Apps which connect to a device or simulate a device or have a sidebar or just look better like it: Brushed Metal
• Apps that include Spotlight: Grayish Blue
• Apple's pro applications: Pro look
• Audio apps which name begins with a G and ends with arageBand: Timber look
• Dashboard widgets: Gimmicky look
• Adobe apps: Quick Windows port look
• Quark XPress: System 7 controls
• Java apps and Windows Media Player: look like crap

Apple encourages developers to strictly follow these guidelines to guarantee a consistent look and feel of Macintosh applications (you may design your own push-buttons though).

I think Apps from macromedia are more like quick port windows look...

Adobe has most of the OS X - like function in it already, I would say they do great on cross platform apps.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by CaptainHaddock:
Tastes will vary, but ... seriously?

Seriously. Both from an aesthetic point of view and from a usability view.

Originally posted by CaptainHaddock:
Why are the icons grouped in little glassy bundles? (I like to call them "turds".)

They are logically grouped. And with the background they are more solid and have a bigger click-surface than a freestanding picture.

You can group them however you want, I like my toolbar like this:

http://home.no.net/monop/mail1.png

Originally posted by CaptainHaddock:
Why are the icons themselves so tiny? What happens if I add, say, "redirect" to the icons? Does it connect with the reply/reply all/forward turd, or form its own? Come to think of it, is it possible to completely eliminate the turds and just have the icons by themselves?

Redirect is a separate icon, you can choose to have all separate or pre-designed groups of icons:
http://home.no.net/monop/mail2.png

No, you can't have the icons without the "turd" as you maturely call them.

Originally posted by CaptainHaddock:
What is that big empty space on the left? Is it the result of a poor attempt to center-align the icons?

That aligns the icons with the left-bar, they are normal toolbar spaces that you can remove and align as you please. (See pic above).

The new toolbar also implements one of the biggest advantages of brushed metal: Larger dragable click-surface. All the new additions get a huge thumbs-up in the human interface area.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Boondoggle:
I agree, but I would like a compact option. This would be especially nice for us powerbook users. And the format of the display should have an influence on how whitespace is allocated. AFAIK all of Apple's displays are now Wide. (OK except for the eMac) Eating up vertical space on a wide format display seems sub-optimal to me.

bd

How compact do you want it? It's just as small as before and you can remove the spaces. And as mentioned, you can remove the toolbar altogether if you don't want it.

[CaptainHaddock]

Thanks for the screenshots, Erik. I still think that extra widget nesting (icon inside glass bubble) is really annoying to look at, but at least you can get rid of that space on the left.

I appreciate that the layout of Tiger's Mail.app might be more usable than Panther's, but I fail to see usability advantage of smaller icons inside a meaningless capsule.

Out of curiosity, why are the screenshots so grainy? I assume Tiger isn't grainy like that.

OreoCookie: I'm going to Nagoya to, well, live. It's time for a change of pace, and I have a place to stay there already. And I want to put my university Japanese to use!

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by CaptainHaddock:
Thanks for the screenshots, Erik. I still think that extra widget nesting (icon inside glass bubble) is really annoying to look at, but at least you can get rid of that space on the left.

I appreciate that the layout of Tiger's Mail.app might be more usable than Panther's, but I fail to see usability advantage of smaller icons inside a meaningless capsule.

Out of curiosity, why are the screenshots so grainy? I assume Tiger isn't grainy like that.

I have no idea actually. It was just how it was saved. Didn't notice it until now.

As for the "meaningless" capsule, Safari also has buttons. So does iTunes. I prefer buttons to free-floating icons for the click-surface and the solidness.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by CaptainHaddock:
...

OreoCookie: I'm going to Nagoya to, well, live. It's time for a change of pace, and I have a place to stay there already. And I want to put my university Japanese to use!

Then Nagoya is a good place to start. Because of its central location, I did lots of travelling. Another thing is that it's basically the richest region in Japan (or at least one of them; granted, people in Tokyo earn more, but they have to pay a lot more, too). (As you can see, I'm fairly enthusiastic ).

Where will you live?

[CaptainHaddock]

I suppose the Mail toolbar icons will be easily accessible in the application bundle, so people can use the old icons or make their own Mail icon sets. I should be able to live with that. Mail.app aside, the disintegration of OS X's gui consistency is still puzzling. John Gruber (www.daringfireball.com) has written quite a bit on the subject.

OreoCookie: I'm afraid I don't know exactly where my home-to-be in Nagoya is, other than that it's a town house somewhere in the city proper. Quite a convenient location, I'm told. My wife will probably look for a job, while I keep doing the freelance work I do.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by CaptainHaddock:
I suppose the Mail toolbar icons will be easily accessible in the application bundle, so people can use the old icons or make their own Mail icon sets. I should be able to live with that. Mail.app aside, the disintegration of OS X's gui consistency is still puzzling. John Gruber (www.daringfireball.com) has written quite a bit on the subject.

OreoCookie: I'm afraid I don't know exactly where my home-to-be in Nagoya is, other than that it's a town house somewhere in the city proper. Quite a convenient location, I'm told. My wife will probably look for a job, while I keep doing the freelance work I do.

Your wife can get a job as a language teacher for sure. It's easy good money. You don't get anywhere fast, but it's good money.

[Zadian]

Originally posted by CaptainHaddock:
I appreciate that the layout of Tiger's Mail.app might be more usable than Panther's, but I fail to see usability advantage of smaller icons inside a meaningless capsule.

I think that the new Mail toolbar is better than the one in Panther. The new icons represent buttons, that's good because they are buttons.
Buttons should look like buttons and not like normal Finder icons.
Normal icons represent an object. Other objects can be dragged onto them and clicking them should open the represented object.
Buttons represent an action that will happen if that button is pressed. Icons in toolbars are normally shortcuts to some actions, they should look like buttons.

I don't like the look of the buttons, but I like that Apple finally has noticed, that buttons should look like buttons.
I hope, that Apple makes this consistent through the whole GUI - all toolbar icons should look like buttons (if they don't represent objects, like some icons in the Finder toolbar).

[Boondoggle]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
How compact do you want it? It's just as small as before and you can remove the spaces. And as mentioned, you can remove the toolbar altogether if you don't want it.

I want the option to make it vertically more compact without losing function. Doing away with the toolbar is not functionally equivalent.

I've tried using a text only toolbar in Mail 1.3.9 but clicking on the search field brings you back to the big button look. For some reason Apple seems to have made it impossible to have editable text fields in text only toolbars.

How fearsomely droll.

bd

[ryju]

Originally posted by ManOfSteal:
"It's hawt."

Wow no wonder you got 10,000 on the last one and are up to 3,000 on this one you write waste replies like that.

Anyway, I actually kind of like the new Mail look. System Preferences seems pretty much the same to me and the Finder is fine.

[lngtones]

Originally posted by CaptainHaddock:
I suppose the Mail toolbar icons will be easily accessible in the application bundle, so people can use the old icons or make their own Mail icon sets. I should be able to live with that.

Actually a little birdy told me that it doesn't work like that. The icons are put into buttons dynamically in the code so even if you remove the bubble tiffs then you just get really small normal looking icons.

[CharlesS]

That's a pity. The Mail application has always been one of the apps I have really liked the look of in 10.0 through 10.3.x. It's just so... clean looking.

The Tiger Mail.app isn't that bad, but it's certainly not anywhere near as nice looking as the Panther version.

[esXXI]

Just thought I'd point out: The Tiger Mail app has toolbar-icons and button caps/fill that go underneath, if you dislike the buttons just open Mail.app and replace the button images with blank ones and voila~ No button backgrounds to them.

(Addition: But as posted earlier, the actually toolbar-icons are around 26x26px so they'll seem smaller than regular ones)

[SS3 GokouX]

What are the chances that if you replaced the new 26x26 icons with the old 32x32 and made the blue pills transparent that the toolbar would look and work like 10.3's Mail? Anyone with 10.4 willing to give it a try?

Mail's new window look is great, it's just those stupid little pill things that annoy piss outta me.

Someone mentioned that toolbar icons should look like buttons. Didn't the 10.0 public beta/DP4 Finder have giant buttons with icons inside of them? God those were ugly.

[Zadian]

Originally posted by SS3 GokouX:
Someone mentioned that toolbar icons should look like buttons. Didn't the 10.0 public beta/DP4 Finder have giant buttons with icons inside of them? God those were ugly.

Yes, those buttons looked ugly, and I'm glad they aren't used anymore. I don't like the look of the buttons in the Mail toolbar in Tiger, but I am glad that the icons are buttons. Maybe someday Apple will come up with nice looking buttons for toolbars.

[kcmac]

The Tiger Mail screenshots are growing on me. By combining the buttons that compresses the space pretty well I think. I'm still not hot on the color combo but it ain't no biggie.

I just keep seeing the smart folders and wishing I had them right now.

[Amorya]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
The Tiger Mail.app isn't that bad

I dunno - it seems almost bad enough to make me switch to another mail client. If another one can do Aqua better, I will change. Mail never had any attraction to me except for the interface. With the lack of the drawer (which I really liked) and the awful toolbar, I've really no incentive to keep using it.

Amorya

[kcmac]

That would be unfortunate. I use Outlook all day at work and it is crazy bad.

Used to use Entourage before Mail was created and moved to Mail when Addressbook became integrated with it and iCal.

Sounds to me like their are several new goodies in Tiger mail that should keep attracting you.

Every time Apple changes the look of these apps resistance is thrown up. And it is warranted in a way because change has been constant since 10.0. But after a short while, it seems we talk about how clunky the previous version looked. I expect it will be more of the same this round.

It will however, be nice to see the day when the GUI seems more set and the internals and other features are given the major focus. Apple has really had to do everything at once with this new OS and I applaud them for it.

[Amorya]

Originally posted by kcmac:
Sounds to me like their are several new goodies in Tiger mail that should keep attracting you.

Every time Apple changes the look of these apps resistance is thrown up. And it is warranted in a way because change has been constant since 10.0. But after a short while, it seems we talk about how clunky the previous version looked. I expect it will be more of the same this round.

I may well like Mail more than I expect. I'll give it a shot at least - haven't used it yet so can't say for sure.

As for resistance to the look - I think I'll always resist this one unless every toolbar in every app gains that look. If they all do, then I will not be pleased ('cos I think it looks ugly) but I guess I'd accept it... I disliked Jaguar's aqua for a while then grew to love it. But if it stays Mail-only, ti's both ugly and inconsistent!

Amorya

[esXXI]

Originally posted by SS3 GokouX:
What are the chances that if you replaced the new 26x26 icons with the old 32x32 and made the blue pills transparent that the toolbar would look and work like 10.3's Mail? Anyone with 10.4 willing to give it a try?

Mail's new window look is great, it's just those stupid little pill things that annoy piss outta me.

Someone mentioned that toolbar icons should look like buttons. Didn't the 10.0 public beta/DP4 Finder have giant buttons with icons inside of them? God those were ugly.

The top one is the default icons + button BGs.

The middle one is with transparent button BGs.

The bottom one is with the "old" 32x32 icons (and look 'broken').

[CaptainHaddock]

"The bottom one is with the 'old' 32x32 icons (and look 'broken')."

That seems kinda silly. Resolutions keep going up, there's no need to start shrinking icons.

And your screenshots are all grainy too! What's with the grainy Tiger screenshot functions?

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by CaptainHaddock:
And your screenshots are all grainy too! What's with the grainy Tiger screenshot functions?

Um... it's called "JPG"

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Um... it's called "JPG"

Actually it's PNG and such should be uncompressed. This is really weird.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Boondoggle:
I want the option to make it vertically more compact without losing function. Doing away with the toolbar is not functionally equivalent.

Well, just to kill this debate once and for all, the tiger mail-toolbar is actually 7 pixels more compact vertically than Panther. And without losing function too.

http://home.no.net/monop/panthervstiger.png

Also make note of how it is even more compacted by removing the messages-status bar (it's now in the window-title so that the list starts much higher in Tiger. Us powerbook owners like that, don't we?

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
Actually it's PNG and such should be uncompressed. This is really weird.

I thought PNG was lossless-compressed.

But anyway, yeah, yours were PNG. However, the one referenced by the post I was replying to was JPG.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
I thought PNG was lossless-compressed.

But anyway, yeah, yours were PNG. However, the one referenced by the post I was replying to was JPG.

Lossless-compressed / uncompressed. Tomato / tamato. You get what I was saying. The point is that Tiger generates grainy (not-JPEG artifacted) PNG-images. (Which was then converted to JPG)

[Gavriel]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
[B]Well, just to kill this debate once and for all, the tiger mail-toolbar is actually 7 pixels more compact vertically than Panther. And without losing function too.

http://home.no.net/monop/panthervstiger.png

Also note that the loss of height in these icons is made to match the vertical size of the search-field, much like many brushed metal apps (Safari for instance) have buttons that matches this size. The problem is that while the brushed metal theme has buttons with simple symbols; the Aqua icons are very detailed and in color which makes it harder to fit them within that same confined space.

[Sophus]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
Lossless-compressed / uncompressed. Tomato / tamato. You get what I was saying. The point is that Tiger generates grainy (not-JPEG artifacted) PNG-images. (Which was then converted to JPG)

Just a wild guess: Could this have anything to do with the extended OpenGL acceleration of the interface, windows i.e. being compressed textures or something? or maybe just a sub par PNG lib?

[kman42]

Originally posted by Gavriel:
The problem is that while the brushed metal theme has buttons with simple symbols; the Aqua icons are very detailed and in color which makes it harder to fit them within that same confined space.

Color doesn't change size and, regardless, they use only splashes of color in those icons. Those icons are also fairly simple, bordering on symbols. Take the 'compose' button for instance: it is just a rectangle with a yellow pencil.

kman

[OAW]

Ok. Apple is really going all over the place with the new GUIs in Tiger. We already had Aqua and Brushed Metal which was bad enough from a consistency standpoint. In fact, just when it appeared that there was some semblance of a "rhyme and reason" for brushed metal Apple goes and introduces yet another GUI into the mix. In short, it appeared that when it came to the vast majority of the Apple supplied applications, Aqua was used for those apps that edited documents, and brushed metal was used for everything else. There are a few exceptions (i.e. Image Capture ... I would have expected that to be brushed metal), but for the most part this appears to be what's happening. And IMO that is OK. But now in Tiger we have this "kinda brushed metal - kinda Aqua" GUI going on. That is, it has the texture of brushed metal with the color of Aqua. The look I'm talking about is present in the full blown Spotlight search results window and in System Preferences. So I'm thinking that perhaps this new look will be used for "utility" windows or something. Things that aren't full-blown applications but instead are part of the functionality of the OS itself. Ok ... I can get with that, but then Apple decides to give this new look to Mail of all things. WTF? I'm sorry, but Mail looks like pure, unadulterated ass. Period. Dot. End of Sentence. I'm glad to see that the ridiculous empty space to the left of the toolbar doesn't have to be there. I'm also glad to see that the buttons can be "grouped" or added separately. So actually, I should say that Mail just looks like "ass" now. I'll let the "pure, unadulterated" part go since the toolbar isn't as bad as I had feared. But my God, look at the color scheme! What's up with that baby blue background color in the Mailbox pane on the left? Why not a simple white background with a resizing control like ... God forbid ... most other apps with a similar layout? In fact, just like the horizontal one in the new Mail itself? Why introduce a layout with no border and only a background color to delineate this area from the rest of the window?

Anyhoo, I'm trying to figure out what purpose this new look serves. I thought I had it, but Mail went and threw a monkey wrench into the program. Anyone with Tiger know of any other applications or areas of the system that have this new look?

OAW

[lngtones]

Originally posted by OAW:
Ok. Apple is really going all over the place with the new GUIs in Tiger. We already had Aqua and Brushed Metal which was bad enough from a consistency standpoint. In fact, just when it appeared that there was some semblance of a "rhyme and reason" for brushed metal Apple goes and introduces yet another GUI into the mix. In short, it appeared that when it came to the vast majority of the Apple supplied applications, Aqua was used for those apps that edited documents, and brushed metal was used for everything else. There are a few exceptions (i.e. Image Capture ... I would have expected that to be brushed metal), but for the most part this appears to be what's happening. And IMO that is OK. But now in Tiger we have this "kinda brushed metal - kinda Aqua" GUI going on. That is, it has the texture of brushed metal with the color of Aqua. The look I'm talking about is present in the full blown Spotlight search results window and in System Preferences. So I'm thinking that perhaps this new look will be used for "utility" windows or something. Things that aren't full-blown applications but instead are part of the functionality of the OS itself. Ok ... I can get with that, but then Apple decides to give this new look to Mail of all things. WTF? I'm sorry, but Mail looks like pure, unadulterated ass. Period. Dot. End of Sentence. I'm glad to see that the ridiculous empty space to the left of the toolbar doesn't have to be there. I'm also glad to see that the buttons can be "grouped" or added separately. So actually, I should say that Mail just looks like "ass" now. I'll let the "pure, unadulterated" part go since the toolbar isn't as bad as I had feared. But my God, look at the color scheme! What's up with that baby blue background color in the Mailbox pane on the left? Why not a simple white background with a resizing control like ... God forbid ... most other apps with a similar layout? In fact, just like the horizontal one in the new Mail itself? Why introduce a layout with no border and only a background color to delineate this area from the rest of the window?

Anyhoo, I'm trying to figure out what purpose this new look serves. I thought I had it, but Mail went and threw a monkey wrench into the program. Anyone with Tiger know of any other applications or areas of the system that have this new look?

OAW

Maybe the look is bait and switch so Microsoft starts copying now and when Tiger really comes out we'll see a Mail.app that is so consistent that it becomes transparent in the background and you can't find it in all the consistency of a single flat color.

Sorry, had to jibe at the "consistency is the only option" crowd there. However, I agree. This Mail.app look is completely horrid.

[CharlesS]

Originally posted by lngtones:
Maybe the look is bait and switch so Microsoft starts copying now and when Tiger really comes out we'll see a Mail.app that is so consistent that it becomes transparent in the background and you can't find it in all the consistency of a single flat color.

Sorry, had to jibe at the "consistency is the only option" crowd there. However, I agree. This Mail.app look is completely horrid.

Ah, conspiracy theories!

Hey, maybe the reason the PNG screenshots are grainy is because Apple designed the screenshot engine in the pre-release OS so that it encodes information about your name, address, and telephone number into the screenshot, and that information looks like noise in the picture! This way, if Apple execs see that screenshot on the web, all they have to do is run it through their decoder program and they'll know exactly who's violating NDA / pirating software, and they can dispatch the FBI to your house!

[entrox]

Originally posted by CharlesS:
Hey, maybe the reason the PNG screenshots are grainy is because Apple designed the screenshot engine in the pre-release OS so that it encodes information about your name, address, and telephone number into the screenshot, and that information looks like noise in the picture! This way, if Apple execs see that screenshot on the web, all they have to do is run it through their decoder program and they'll know exactly who's violating NDA / pirating software, and they can dispatch the FBI to your house!

Wow! I know you were joking, but that's actually a very cool idea. I have seen Steganogaphy used in digital images by slightly reducing color depth in parts where the human eye wouldn't be able to detect it and using the freed bits to store information. Encoding it as noise isn't as subtle, but you would be able to encode more data.

Fun

[Amorya]

Originally posted by OAW:
I'm sorry, but Mail looks like pure, unadulterated ass. Period. Dot. End of Sentence.

Anyone know if Panther's Mail will still run on Tiger? If so, I think I'll stick with it.

Originally posted by lngtones:
Maybe the look is bait and switch so Microsoft starts copying now and when Tiger really comes out we'll see a Mail.app that is so consistent that it becomes transparent in the background and you can't find it in all the consistency of a single flat color.

If only! But 4K78 still had the debug code in... I don't hold out much hope.



Amorya

[DavidHossack]

How is the Chat icon in the latest version of mail? I remember it was lacking a background before (earlier builds with these horrible mail icons)

What is happening in System preferences? It used to have the same toolbar as mail with buttons looking like the ones in Safari. I think they look far better-perhaps those of us who hate the new look could redo all the icons in that style

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Gavriel:
Also note that the loss of height in these icons is made to match the vertical size of the search-field, much like many brushed metal apps (Safari for instance) have buttons that matches this size. The problem is that while the brushed metal theme has buttons with simple symbols; the Aqua icons are very detailed and in color which makes it harder to fit them within that same confined space.

Agreed. I would actually rather see a merging of the Safari and new Mail-style icons. I love the new combined backgrounds, but I'd like to see it more iconified. The reply/forward arrows are just perfect, and I'd like to see that look more propagated.

[simifilm]

I guess I'll get used to Tiger's Mail UI, but as many others here, I just don't understand why Apple has to introduce another UI style. They've could have easily used the same UI layout with normal Aqua. Sometimes, it looks as if they're delibaretaly breaking their own UI rules�

[Arbernaut]

My main beef is this - and I think this is getting lost - why aren't Mail's icons like Safari's? They're both internet apps. What's the deal, Apple?

[Superchicken]

I just remembered something! Mail.app = a Cocoa app! If you don't like the new icons (which I don't) just drag in (possibly rename) the buttons form the old Mail.app and VOILA! Ooh I'm less frustrated now!

[SS3 GokouX]

I suggested that already, esXXI tried it and it doesn't work exactly:

Originally posted by esXXI:


The top one is the default icons + button BGs.

The middle one is with transparent button BGs.

The bottom one is with the "old" 32x32 icons (and look 'broken').

[Superchicken]

BASTARDS!

Oh well, Photoshop has resizing for a reason... though this is a bit frustrating... I'm gona give Apple some feedback.

[wr11]

Not being terribly helpful, I will also say that the new "Glass Pills" are quite ugly. I think a white halo or some other not-quite-so-jarring button background would be much better... if at all.

-will

[booboo]

I just wanted to whine a little about the Apple 'Pro' interface - which I'm familiar with in the $999 Logic Pro I recently bought.

OK. 'Pro's' (like me) need big high-resolution screens, so why this 'Pro' interface with a pointlessly unnecessary mini-versions of Open/Save dialogues, as well tiny fonts in tiny - often modal - dialogues almost illegibly small in the middle of my screen?

Yes, I appreciate that 'pro' app's needed a smaller set of widgets than OS X 10.0 originally provided, but to gratuitously use tiny widgets, fonts and dialogues is just plain dumb.

[/whine]

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally posted by Arbernaut:
My main beef is this - and I think this is getting lost - why aren't Mail's icons like Safari's? They're both internet apps. What's the deal, Apple?

As has been suggested before, Mail has traditionally been the test-bed of new technologies. Brushed metal-apps would benefit from looking more like Safari IMHO (especially now that Safari uses the standard toolbar) and Aqua-apps should hopefully gravitate towards the new mail-look. It's really an evolution of Aqua, and these things do take time to implement across the board.

It is however true that Apple does not have as stringent internal GUI-rules as it used too, and I imagine the internal politics on this being quite fierce. Developers are just as opinionated as you guys, and I imagine the different application development teams within Apple taking advantage of the slack rules (unfortunately).

[leperkuhn]

Originally posted by - - e r i k - -:
As has been suggested before, Mail has traditionally been the test-bed of new technologies. Brushed metal-apps would benefit from looking more like Safari IMHO (especially now that Safari uses the standard toolbar) and Aqua-apps should hopefully gravitate towards the new mail-look. It's really an evolution of Aqua, and these things do take time to implement across the board.

It is however true that Apple does not have as stringent internal GUI-rules as it used too, and I imagine the internal politics on this being quite fierce. Developers are just as opinionated as you guys, and I imagine the different application development teams within Apple taking advantage of the slack rules (unfortunately).

And it really is a shame that there isn't a built in way to change the skins while they mess around with the look from version to version.

[milhous]

it's really all about apple's hci designers needing job security, thus the disparate gui situation.

we may never get additional themes in mac os, but for crying out loud, make the gui consistent system-wide!

[TETENAL]

Originally posted by Superchicken:
just drag in (possibly rename) the buttons form the old Mail.app and VOILA!