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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Notebooks > How about a class action lawsuit for TiBook 550/667 owners without the combo drive

How about a class action lawsuit for TiBook 550/667 owners without the combo drive
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ltitle
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Dec 31, 2001, 07:12 PM
 
This is not about computer obsolesence. We all know, that anything we buy today will be outdated within 6 months or so.

The issue, which only a few of the responders understand, is that surely Apple was aware on Oct. 16th when the revision TiBooks 550/667 were announced that a combo drive was imminent. There are many reasons why the machine may not have included the combo drive.

One, the drives weren't ready in time or available in high enough numbers. But they were anxious to improve the sales of the PowerBook. Clearly, the ibook with combo drive must have been cutting into some of their sales.

Two, they wanted to unload the large inventory of DVD drives. By doing it in two steps with announcements on Oct. 16 and then, again on Dec. 17 they would see two blips in PowerBook sales.

We all know, the right way to approach this would have been to either wait til the drives were ready before introducing the new machines, or make a preannouncement that the option of a combo drive (perhaps a little more money) would be available in a few months. Then, those who didn't need a combo drive (and many seem to suggest that it is unnecessary), could buy the revised machine right away, while those who wanted it (and I'm sure most of us did), they would elect to wait for those few months if possible. But, many of us have burned too many times by Apple in this manner. Surprisingly, we put up with it.

Like many, I bought my 667 less than a month before the combo drive was announced. I really wanted a combo drive, as I travel alot and I use the PowerBook as a Desktop replacement. Sure, I have a faster CD-R at the office, but what about when you need to burn a disc for someone on the road. Don't suggest lugging more peripherals, as it is a pain already getting through airport security with just the other electronic objects. What really irks me, is that before I purchased the TiBook I had employees at the Fashion Island Apple store, the sales rep on the Apple store Canada, and reps at Macwarehouse deny that a combo drive was imminent. Although, I wanted a new PowerBook soon rather than later, I surely would have waited 3 weeks to get a machine that Apple was aware would be available soon. Don't tell me that Apple doesn't make pre-announcements ... what about MP G4, or the superdrives both of which were announced before their availability. Perhaps, Apple has done this one too many times ... Are we going to continue to accept this horrible business practice... I was similarly burned in 1998 when I bought the backordered wallstreet 292, which was upgraded with a speed bump, graphics card, and standard DVD-ROM within weeks of me receiving the machine.

How come no one has talked about a class-action lawsuit ??? Wasn't there recently some settlement for imac owners, or something. Apple would certainly get alot of points if it owned up and gave all owners of the 667 and 550 a free upgrade path. But, we know that won't happen.
lawrence
     
seanyepez
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Dec 31, 2001, 07:31 PM
 
Oh, please...

While I know you are in anguish over the $300 you lost by adopting early, they are not legally obligated to stick to their "one release every nine months" strategy. It's not set in stone. They can do whatever they want to keep their products competitive.

Taking them to court will only make them less financially able to take care of our technical support issues and produce competitive products.

Every dollar you take from Apple will make them that much less inclined to help you out.

Paying their employees and lawyers costs money. Developing products also costs money. Taking away from that pot of financial wealth will only degrade the quality of their products.

I don't know what grounds you would be filing a case on, but they better be strong, as Apple's legal team is almost invincible.

[ 12-31-2001: Message edited by: seanyepez ]
     
vmarks
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Dec 31, 2001, 07:34 PM
 
Do you have any legal basis for believing there's merit in a class action lawsuit over this?

What is the difference between what you propose and a frivolous suit?

If you can answer both of those questions with clarity and references supporting your answers, I'm interested in hearing them.
If this post is in the Lounge forum, it is likely to be my own opinion, and not representative of the position of MacNN.com.

     
3.1416
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Dec 31, 2001, 07:43 PM
 
We all know, the right way to approach this would have been to either wait til the drives were ready before introducing the new machines, or make a preannouncement that the option of a combo drive (perhaps a little more money) would be available in a few months.
The first strategy is ridiculous. Wanting Apple to continue to sell an inferior product when they have a substantially better one available makes no sense. The second strategy is a possibility, but I doubt Apple knew exactly when they would have enough combo drives available to meet demand. Just about everyone realized that the TiBook would soon get a combo drive, and if you "really wanted" one you had the option of waiting. If you feel you made a mistake, then learn from it rather than demanding that Apple release products according to your timetable.
     
Nebrie
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Dec 31, 2001, 08:06 PM
 
Computers get faster and better all the time - Get Over It. If you even had a chance of winning this, every pc company out there would go bankrupt because they do this All The Time.
     
craigthomas
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Dec 31, 2001, 08:15 PM
 
I'm sooooo tired of this whining. It was very obvious to me that Apple would turn around a Ti with a combo by MacWorld. So it came a little early. Hey, it's in the iBook. To think it wouldn't come to the pro line soon is plain old blind. You friggin just wanted it and went for it.

I was not even tempted to upgrade my Ti 500 in Oct. Not much to gain. When the combo was announced, I was more temped, but definitely not surprised in the slightest that they finally got the combo to make it into the Ti.

Anyway, just go and get an external. That's what I did. 24X! An 8X is going to seem like molasses real soon.
     
seanyepez
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Dec 31, 2001, 08:41 PM
 
The general consensus is that you have too much time on your hands if you start something like this with no legal grounds to file suit against Apple.

However, I am still interested in knowing what you think you could sue Apple for.
     
k2man
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Dec 31, 2001, 10:15 PM
 
This is idiotic. Next.
     
romeosc
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Dec 31, 2001, 10:49 PM
 
Originally posted by k2man:
<STRONG>This is idiotic. Next.</STRONG>

..... while you are at it you can sue Apple for holding back on the advancements of the IIGS so people would switch to the Mac.... developing Apple Pascal instead of sending users Dos manuals, etc..... go cry over spilled milk!

.... if you stay 2 steps behind the leading edge.... you don't get left bleeding!
     
seanyepez
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Dec 31, 2001, 11:21 PM
 
That's too true. If you are buying the best of the best, expect to go through a little bit more than an average computer consumer will.
     
<ti667>
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Dec 31, 2001, 11:34 PM
 
Originally posted by ltitle:
<STRONG>How come no one has talked about a class-action lawsuit ??? </STRONG>
Because that would be pathetic. By your logic, I should sue Apple because my original iMac was updated a few months after buying it. Funny how hundreds of thousands of buyers didnt think of this too. I wonder why?

Seriously, get over it. If you want it so bad, sell your machine and buy a new one. Easy.
     
iBorg
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Jan 1, 2002, 12:22 AM
 
Originally posted by k2man:
<STRONG>This is idiotic. Next.</STRONG>
Ditto.

This looks unanimous.......Get a reality check..........



iBorg
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seanyepez
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Jan 1, 2002, 12:22 AM
 
You don't even have to sell it on eBay. Take it in to an Apple Store and have them update your machine's DVD driev to a combination DVD-ROM/CD-RW drive.

That's the irony in all of this; Apple is giving you the opportunity to upgrade.
     
Mr. Blur
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Jan 1, 2002, 12:36 AM
 
ya know....if apple gave computers away for free some people would still look for a reason to complain...."awwww...couldn't they have given me a faster one?"
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seanyepez
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Jan 1, 2002, 01:31 AM
 
I don't think people would complain about free computers, but something is seriously wrong with a person's head if they think Apple owes them a free combination drive because they were an early adopter of the revision-B TiBook.
     
<eddie vedder>
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Jan 1, 2002, 01:34 AM
 
Originally posted by 3.1416:
<STRONG>

The first strategy is ridiculous. Wanting Apple to continue to sell an inferior product when they have a substantially better one available makes no sense. The second strategy is a possibility, but I doubt Apple knew exactly when they would have enough combo drives available to meet demand. Just about everyone realized that the TiBook would soon get a combo drive, and if you "really wanted" one you had the option of waiting. If you feel you made a mistake, then learn from it rather than demanding that Apple release products according to your timetable.</STRONG>
no, Apple has posted things that would be available "shortly" or at a certain date as BTO before. In fact they did that exact thing with combo drives in the PowerMac G4 early 2001.

they didn't have them at release so they had BTO saying available whatever month. they did the same thing with a scsi card and certain other items in the past such as the Geforce 3
     
OldManMac
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Jan 1, 2002, 01:37 AM
 
Perhaps this is an ambulance chaser, who works for the law firm of Dewey, Cheatham & Howe!
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seanyepez
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Jan 1, 2002, 01:44 AM
 
Apple could have been mean and not allowed existing revision-B owners to upgrade to a combo drive, but they offer it as an upgrade.

This was a wise move in terms of finance (some people who already had revision-B TiBooks with DVD-ROM or CD-RW drives would upgrade) and altruism.
     
skyman
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Jan 1, 2002, 02:56 AM
 
Originally posted by ltitle:
<STRONG>This is not about computer obsolesence. We all know, that anything we buy today will be outdated within 6 months or so.

The issue, which only a few of the responders understand, is that surely Apple was aware on Oct. 16th when the revision TiBooks 550/667 were announced that a combo drive was imminent. There are many reasons why the machine may not have included the combo drive.

One, the drives weren't ready in time or available in high enough numbers. But they were anxious to improve the sales of the PowerBook. Clearly, the ibook with combo drive must have been cutting into some of their sales.

Two, they wanted to unload the large inventory of DVD drives. By doing it in two steps with announcements on Oct. 16 and then, again on Dec. 17 they would see two blips in PowerBook sales.

We all know, the right way to approach this would have been to either wait til the drives were ready before introducing the new machines, or make a preannouncement that the option of a combo drive (perhaps a little more money) would be available in a few months. Then, those who didn't need a combo drive (and many seem to suggest that it is unnecessary), could buy the revised machine right away, while those who wanted it (and I'm sure most of us did), they would elect to wait for those few months if possible. But, many of us have burned too many times by Apple in this manner. Surprisingly, we put up with it.

Like many, I bought my 667 less than a month before the combo drive was announced. I really wanted a combo drive, as I travel alot and I use the PowerBook as a Desktop replacement. Sure, I have a faster CD-R at the office, but what about when you need to burn a disc for someone on the road. Don't suggest lugging more peripherals, as it is a pain already getting through airport security with just the other electronic objects. What really irks me, is that before I purchased the TiBook I had employees at the Fashion Island Apple store, the sales rep on the Apple store Canada, and reps at Macwarehouse deny that a combo drive was imminent. Although, I wanted a new PowerBook soon rather than later, I surely would have waited 3 weeks to get a machine that Apple was aware would be available soon. Don't tell me that Apple doesn't make pre-announcements ... what about MP G4, or the superdrives both of which were announced before their availability. Perhaps, Apple has done this one too many times ... Are we going to continue to accept this horrible business practice... I was similarly burned in 1998 when I bought the backordered wallstreet 292, which was upgraded with a speed bump, graphics card, and standard DVD-ROM within weeks of me receiving the machine.

How come no one has talked about a class-action lawsuit ??? Wasn't there recently some settlement for imac owners, or something. Apple would certainly get alot of points if it owned up and gave all owners of the 667 and 550 a free upgrade path. But, we know that won't happen.
</STRONG>
Hey tooki, will you please lock this WORTHLESS thread.
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LtKernelPanic
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Jan 1, 2002, 03:07 AM
 
Oh get real. Apple doesn't even have tp give the option to get the upgrade. Sheesh. Grow up.
     
brachiator
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Jan 1, 2002, 05:03 AM
 
Now don't anyone/everyone jump on me to provide references, because I haven't and won't research this, and I don't even know in what state the thread-starter lives. That said...

The thread-starter said that
before I purchased the TiBook I had employees at the Fashion Island Apple store, the sales rep on the Apple store Canada, and reps at Macwarehouse deny that a combo drive was imminent.
This was a month before the combo drive was announced. Apple certainly knew at that point that the drive was "imminent," if not the exact date of announcement.

Apple is legally and ethically responsible for the acts (including statements) of its agents, which would include at least the Apple Store rep (assuming it is the 800 number) and the Apple-brand store reps (assuming that it is Apple owned... I dunno). This means that Apple is responsible for the statements to the thread-poster -- in response to his direct question I might add -- that the combo drive was not imminent... when in fact it was.

In short, based upon what the guy wrote, Apple lied to this guy, and I don't think it matters as a matter of law or ethics that (as many will no doubt object) the reps "didn't know what they were talking about..." If they are apple's agents then they apple is responsible for their acts in the course of their employment. It's one thing to leave the guy in the dark about new hardware options, and quite another to lead him affirmatively astray. it would be fraud, in my book.

Maybe Apple should train its reps to simply say, "no comment" when asked about the imminence of new hardware... It should certainly train them to at least add, "not to my personal knowledge" when issuing outright denials.

Maybe there aren't enough people -- or enough who've been similarly lied to -- for a class action, but perhaps the small claims court in the poster's state would cover such a claim. It should be as simple as getting depositions from the employees who denied the imminence of the combo drive, and Apple's internal projections/inventory/scheduling documents (although small claims may not allow discovery).

good luck to ya, ltitle.
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -- Abraham Lincoln, 1861
     
brachiator
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Jan 1, 2002, 05:07 AM
 
double post, sorry.

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: brachiator ]
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -- Abraham Lincoln, 1861
     
seanyepez
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Jan 1, 2002, 05:39 AM
 
If they lied to you, that's another issue.

If they just said it wasn't "imminent," there's really nothing you can do. Imminent is a word open to interpretation.
     
Cipher13
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Jan 1, 2002, 06:15 AM
 
Originally posted by ltitle:
<STRONG>This is not about computer obsolesence. We all know, that anything we buy today will be outdated within 6 months or so.

The issue, which only a few of the responders understand, is that surely Apple was aware on Oct. 16th when the revision TiBooks 550/667 were announced that a combo drive was imminent. There are many reasons why the machine may not have included the combo drive.

One, the drives weren't ready in time or available in high enough numbers. But they were anxious to improve the sales of the PowerBook. Clearly, the ibook with combo drive must have been cutting into some of their sales.

Two, they wanted to unload the large inventory of DVD drives. By doing it in two steps with announcements on Oct. 16 and then, again on Dec. 17 they would see two blips in PowerBook sales.

We all know, the right way to approach this would have been to either wait til the drives were ready before introducing the new machines, or make a preannouncement that the option of a combo drive (perhaps a little more money) would be available in a few months. Then, those who didn't need a combo drive (and many seem to suggest that it is unnecessary), could buy the revised machine right away, while those who wanted it (and I'm sure most of us did), they would elect to wait for those few months if possible. But, many of us have burned too many times by Apple in this manner. Surprisingly, we put up with it.

Like many, I bought my 667 less than a month before the combo drive was announced. I really wanted a combo drive, as I travel alot and I use the PowerBook as a Desktop replacement. Sure, I have a faster CD-R at the office, but what about when you need to burn a disc for someone on the road. Don't suggest lugging more peripherals, as it is a pain already getting through airport security with just the other electronic objects. What really irks me, is that before I purchased the TiBook I had employees at the Fashion Island Apple store, the sales rep on the Apple store Canada, and reps at Macwarehouse deny that a combo drive was imminent. Although, I wanted a new PowerBook soon rather than later, I surely would have waited 3 weeks to get a machine that Apple was aware would be available soon. Don't tell me that Apple doesn't make pre-announcements ... what about MP G4, or the superdrives both of which were announced before their availability. Perhaps, Apple has done this one too many times ... Are we going to continue to accept this horrible business practice... I was similarly burned in 1998 when I bought the backordered wallstreet 292, which was upgraded with a speed bump, graphics card, and standard DVD-ROM within weeks of me receiving the machine.

How come no one has talked about a class-action lawsuit ??? Wasn't there recently some settlement for imac owners, or something. Apple would certainly get alot of points if it owned up and gave all owners of the 667 and 550 a free upgrade path. But, we know that won't happen.
</STRONG>
You, sir, are a fool.
     
seanyepez
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Jan 1, 2002, 06:55 AM
 
Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>

You, sir, are a fool.</STRONG>
I couldn't have put it better.

You can't expect a company in a world of capitalism to be altruistic to its customer base.

I still want to know what you would base your claim on.
     
itai195
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Jan 1, 2002, 07:55 AM
 
No offense to anyone here but... to be perfectly honest, anyone with half a brain would've known a combo drive was "imminent"... Why should Apple give out secrets about future products? Does anyone else do this? Didn't think so...
     
seanyepez
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Jan 1, 2002, 08:05 AM
 
Same. If other people knew that Apple was coming out with a combination DVD-ROM/CD-RW drive, they would have directed more attention at a counterstrike earlier on.
     
Cipher13
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Jan 1, 2002, 11:04 AM
 
"Guys - we just released our new PowerBooks! But, I mean, don't buy them YET - in a month they'll have better drives. So sorta just hold off on your cash, okay? We don't really want to take it from you when there are gonna be better products out later. Whats that, Jim? You just got word that Michael Dell heard this and put combo drives in his machines? Damn. Make it two weeks people "

-Steve

Yeah. I can see that.
     
brachiator
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Jan 1, 2002, 05:14 PM
 
<STRONG>If they lied to you, that's another issue.

If they just said it wasn't "imminent," there's really nothing you can do. Imminent is a word open to interpretation.</STRONG>
"not imminent" could easily be a lie. sure, one can argue whether a month-off is imminent to apple, or what the rep thought it meant, or whether any given purchaser considers a month-off imminent. I don't even know for sure what words were used... its not my beef.

But if the guy asked the rep a question that would lead any reasonable person to understand that the guy wanted to know if a combo drive was being released soon, because that was what he preferred, and the rep gave an answer that a reasonable person could understand as "no, we are not releasing a combo drive model soon," then the rep lied, and thus Apple lied. A month-off is "soon" in my book, and I think that is reasonable.

Most of the other posters here agree with me, too, I believe, about Apple's motives and understanding of the situation. A lot of folks here are saying that Apple should be under no obligation to announce imminent products, because then they will be unable to sell the current stock, etc. Fine with me, and surely caveat emptor on that one. But its a game with rules -- you can try to avoid pointing out that your current configurations will be outdated by such-and-such date, and you can say "we don't discuss release dates" -- but you can't lie if directly asked. Sounds here like Apple lied.

No offense to anyone here but... to be perfectly honest, anyone with half a brain would've known a combo drive was "imminent"... Why should Apple give out secrets about future products? Does anyone else do this? Didn't think so...
If anyone with half a brain would have "known" it, then the wrongfulness of the denial is that much clearer. It is that much more of a bald-faced lie, because Apple took an "obvious" fact and said that it just wasn't so -- and then the thread-starter relied on the lie because it came straight from the horse's mouth! Again, the point is not that Apple has to announce "secrets", but just that it can't lie if asked directly.

Anyhow, someone long above asked whether this was just a frivolous suit, if filed. I don't think it is. The only question that remains, based on what the thread-starter wrote, is whether a reasonable person would understand "imminent" to include a combo-drive TiBook release one month off. That is just a question of fact. If the answer is "yes, it is reasonable" then Apple clearly acted in bad faith and fraudulently, and it should at the least have to upgrade the rtitle's drive.

No, maybe Apple shouldn't have to be altruistic. It's sole chartered purpose is to earn profit. I say maybe, though, because if Apple's purpose is to earn profit and not be bothered by social niceties or responsibilities, then it should stay the hell out of politics -- which we know no corporation does. One or the other. As for me, so long as Apple mucks around in politics, I will hold it to a higher standard ... I mean, c'mon, with the brand loyalty in these fora so thick you could cut it with a knife, surely Apple owes us something in return for the loyalty, something beyond a fair market exchange? How about, uh, loyalty? At a minimum, not lying.

It'd be nice to see Apple keep us apprised of the product development cycle, so that we could make rational decisions about how to spend our money. "What!?!?" I hear you howl -- "But then no one will buy anything from Apple, while waiting on the next release!" Well... no. Not true. People will buy what they need when they need it, if they can't afford to wait, and if they can afford to wait they will. That is rational decision making - supposedly what the market is based upon. And even if it was true no one would ever buy, tough luck -- I couldn't care less, because as a consumer my *only* job is to get the best value for my money in each or a series of transactions. My only responsibility to the market is to buy or not buy when it suits me (mind you, this is the same philosophy that justifies Apple's lack of "altruism"...)

Apple's products for my money, that's the deal. Anything else is something else entirely. Altruism? maybe. It may be enlightened self-interest for me to "support" Apple because otherwise there will *be* no Apple -- but that is not the way markets work. That's not classical economics, but social engineering.

Loyalty, perhaps -- and certainly we are *owed* loyalty for our loyalty.
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -- Abraham Lincoln, 1861
     
wataru
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Jan 1, 2002, 05:39 PM
 
How about not?
     
iMan
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Jan 1, 2002, 05:55 PM
 
I wish I had the money for a TiBook. I know if I got onoe and they released a version of it with a Combo Drive I wouldn't complain about it. I would still be happy that I had one.
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Jan 1, 2002, 06:03 PM
 
I got a 550 BEFORE the combo. Surely it pinched a bit when I learned of the drive upgrade but I got over it. I'm getting an external firewire CD-RW drive instead. It'll also go great with my iMac and besides, I often need to access more than one disk at once.

Ya gotta do with what ya got Dude, and besides, you could've waited for the perfect machine...

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Jan 1, 2002, 06:41 PM
 
yea well if you think about it and look at the repair prices , well they are giving you an upgrade for nothing . I really dought after shipping you a box then getting a pick-up to go off to some repair center, paying someone to swap out the drives , paying for the combo drive , doing whatever with the old drive , that cost money too and then sending it back to you ,
that they are making a dime on the upgrade
     
brachiator
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Jan 1, 2002, 08:08 PM
 
Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>"Guys - we just released our new PowerBooks! But, I mean, don't buy them YET - in a month they'll have better drives. So sorta just hold off on your cash, okay? We don't really want to take it from you when there are gonna be better products out later. Whats that, Jim? You just got word that Michael Dell heard this and put combo drives in his machines? Damn. Make it two weeks people "

-Steve

Yeah. I can see that.</STRONG>

How about "Hey, pal, I know that you want to know if we are about to release a combo option, but I just won't tell ya. We don't discuss product scheduling with customers. Sorry. Just have to take your chances on buying now, or wait and see."

That would have been fair. Instead of "Combo drive? Nope, not gonna do that anytime soon, not in the TiBook. Go ahead and buy today, no reason not to. You don't want to wait god knows how many months to see if Apple ever offers a combo drive option. Here, lemme take your credit card." -- which was what the guy alleges happened, with a little hyperbole added.


When did we stop being buyers and consumers, and go to work for the boards and marketing divisions of the firms we buy from? have we read so many puff pieces on the verminous Jack Welch that we can no longer recall that its is our job, just as surely as it is Steve's to try and squeeze the highest price out of us, to squeeze the lowest price out of Apple for the most goods and services and information? Not to sign up as unpaid marketing strategists and start justifying flat denials of product release imminence on the basis of worrying about what Michael Dell would do next...

BTW, in response to the initial question about a class action: not likely, at all. Even if you could round up enough pissed early purchasers, the only basis to the thread-starter's claim is the lie, which is not quite fraud, perhaps. Anyway, it is a question of individual fact (did they lie to you or not), and unless you could show that there was (or was likely to have been) some company-wide policy to lie to customers, the individual question "were you lied to" would predominate over any common questions, and it is very unlikely that a class would ever be certified to proceed.

So you'd have to proceed on your own, if at all. Which might be worth it for the difference in price (dunno how much it is), or the diff between the now-used TiBook you bought and a new model, or the cost of an upgrade now, or just the principle of the thing. I'm pretty sure that it would have to be a small claims action, since it is certainly under 3000 bucks, and I don't know if you can get discovery in small claims court. Anyway, the actual suit might cost you more to prosecute, what with deposing the apple reps, etc., and given the uncertainty of whether you'd be able to prove a lie, it might be more rational just to spend the money to upgrade the machine.
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -- Abraham Lincoln, 1861
     
tullamore
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Jan 1, 2002, 08:30 PM
 
SHUT UP!!! Do you think that if I were to buy a new PowerMac today and then something sooo much better comes out on Jan 7 ( Just seven days later ) that I deserve to have Apple upgrade my computer to all the new features a new computer would have. NO that's life. They didn't make me buy the computer 7 days before MacWorld.
     
OldManMac
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Jan 1, 2002, 08:48 PM
 
There's no way any court is going to consider an Apple Store employee, a sales rep in Canada, and a rep at Macwarehouse as "agents" of Apple. The term has been very precisely defined, and there is a difference between representative and agent. That aside, the courts also know the difference between whiners and legitimate complaints, and this falls into the whiner category.

There is no legal requirement for any company to tell customers when a product revision or replacement may be forthcoming, except when a product may be unsafe and cause harm.
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brachiator
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Jan 1, 2002, 10:46 PM
 
Originally posted by KarlG:
<STRONG>There's no way any court is going to consider an Apple Store employee, a sales rep in Canada, and a rep at Macwarehouse as "agents" of Apple. The term has been very precisely defined, and there is a difference between representative and agent. That aside, the courts also know the difference between whiners and legitimate complaints, and this falls into the whiner category.

There is no legal requirement for any company to tell customers when a product revision or replacement may be forthcoming, except when a product may be unsafe and cause harm.</STRONG>
I'm assuming for the sake of argument that the Apple Store employees (at the Apple brand store and what I am taking to be the Online store) are agents. Certainly not the MacWarehouse person, and I have no idea what the actual arrangements are with respect to the first two. Usually, employees are considered agents.

If the guy said that he didn't want to buy without assurance that the combo option was not going to be available the next month, and the employee/agent gave that assurance, falsely or in error, then this guy was led due to Apple's fault and should be compensated.

That's not whining, its complaining that you've been lied to and took a loss that you otherwise wouldn't have taken, because you'd have waited for the more valuable option.

And note that I never said Apple had to disclose anything *even if asked* -- but simply couldn't deny what was true. Apple could say "no comment," etc., but not "no, it won't happen," if it was going to happen. Lets separate the idea of making a badly timed purchase on your own, from making that same purchase *because* you were lied to about what was upcoming.

And, tullamore, what I've been arguing is close to Apple "making you buy the PowerMac." If you might not have bought but for Apple falsely assuring you that the combo option was not imminent, then, yeah, Apple induced you to buy, fradulently.

That's all I have to say, I think. The guy wanted to know if a class action suit was a good idea -- I said "no." I also said that an individual action was not likely to prevail, because of difficulty proving the facts. Maybe because of a problem with the agency relationship, although I disagree on that one on general principles. But on the wider questions, assuming the employees *did* assure the guy no combo option was coming soon, and he decided not to wait on that false basis... well, you know where I stand.
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -- Abraham Lincoln, 1861
     
mrtew
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Jan 1, 2002, 11:48 PM
 
Originally posted by k2man:
<STRONG>This is idiotic. Next.</STRONG>

I really bet you wouldn't feel that way if YOU just got your creditcard bill for a $3500 top of the line portable computer that is already obsolete before the first payment!

I love the U.S., but we need some time apart.
     
3.1416
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Jan 2, 2002, 01:18 AM
 
Originally posted by John Tewksbury:
<STRONG>I really bet you wouldn't feel that way if YOU just got your creditcard bill for a $3500 top of the line portable computer that is already obsolete before the first payment!</STRONG>
Come on. The DVD TiBooks are nowhere near obsolete.
     
Cipher13
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Jan 2, 2002, 01:33 AM
 
WTF. Did someone delete a post of mine from this thread? Eh?
     
brachiator
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Jan 2, 2002, 02:11 AM
 
Originally posted by Cipher13:
<STRONG>WTF. Did someone delete a post of mine from this thread? Eh?</STRONG>
what post? what didja write?
"Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration." -- Abraham Lincoln, 1861
     
tullamore
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Jan 2, 2002, 02:36 AM
 
Originally posted by John Tewksbury:
<STRONG>


I really bet you wouldn't feel that way if YOU just got your creditcard bill for a $3500 top of the line portable computer that is already obsolete before the first payment!</STRONG>
Just because you now have a laptop that is out of date, YOU DO have what you bought. If your laptop does not have the speed and feature that you want YOU SHOULDN"T HAVE BOUGHT IT. Stop being a baby.
     
seanyepez
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Jan 2, 2002, 02:58 AM
 
You got what you paid for when you bought it. Just because you bought something, you are not entitled in any way to the product that comes out right after it, are you?
     
Matsu
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Jan 2, 2002, 07:33 PM
 
ltitle,

You must be the victim of an over-zealous <font color = red>edited</font> to so desperately need such technologicl <font color = red>edit</font> extension.

Your arguments are too stupid to even begin to adress. No, I think insult is the only acceptable reply to these retarded 'Petition' threads, but I'm too tired to insult you right now.

Perhaps we could automatically ban anyone who starts a one of these silly "something better came out, and I feel entitled, so lets all complain" threads?

That or use their IPs to find out where they live and set bags of <font color = red>edit</font> alight on their front porches. I'll provide the <font color = red>edit</font> if you provide the bags? Still got some of that New Years feast percolating in my lower intestine, I think.

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]


<font color = red>Matsu, I don't know if it was even necessary to reply to this guy more than once-- 40-some posts all telling him he's mistaken to propose class-action-- even so, you don't have to be so graphic about it.

I don't want to imagine what is said _before_ you edited it!

Thanks,

Victor Marks
[email protected]
</font>

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: vmarks and Matsu]

Matsu edit:
circumcision, penis, excrement &lt;-- none of these are bad words I think, just colorful, nes pas?

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: Matsu ]
Apple: bumping prices, not specs.
     
seanyepez
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Jan 2, 2002, 09:08 PM
 
I agree. These are useless posts.
     
Millennium
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Jan 2, 2002, 10:44 PM
 
Apple does need to be more forthcoming about their plans. Heck, they owe that much to the people who buy their products. People have a right to know what they're buying, including whether or not a new model's coming out in a short time frame.

This said, though, I don't think there's merit in a class-action lawsuit. You knew the risks you took when you bought the machine (namely, that a new one may be coming out soon, given the Combo Drive situation and all). You chose to accept that risk, in exchange for getting your machine a little earlier. Granted, you should have been told that a new model was being geared for release, and that it would probably have been released within the next couple of months, but in the end, it was a risk you took, and you got burned. Is it a bummer? Of course. But it's not worth a lawsuit which, in the end, will likely cost you many times more than the TiBook did.
You are in Soviet Russia. It is dark. Grue is likely to be eaten by YOU!
     
seanyepez
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Jan 2, 2002, 11:32 PM
 
While keeping information from consumers about the impending release of the combo drive might be an exception to the rule, I don't think Apple should be forthcoming about their releases. This allows competitors such as Dell and HP/Compaq to copy the ideas of their new products. From a business standpoint, this is the reason Apple is alive. They innovate a product line so well that no competitor can come up with something to compete with it for a long while. The longer they can keep their plans a secret, the longer they will offer their unique solutions. Apple needs time to come up with these ideas and send them into production. A miracle doesn't happen every nine months.
     
velocitychannel
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Jan 2, 2002, 11:32 PM
 
Apple is offering to update the drives for a reasonable price. So pony up the dough and get one. It will cost you a lot less than paying a lawyer.
     
iBorg
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Jan 2, 2002, 11:46 PM
 
Originally posted by velocitychannel:
<STRONG>Apple is offering to update the drives for a reasonable price. So pony up the dough and get one. It will cost you a lot less than paying a lawyer. </STRONG>
Money well-spent!

I can't imagine any lawyer, even the slimy ones, accepting a "lawsuit" with this degree of frivolousness! (Not because they have a sense of right-and-wrong, but because they're never going to do the work on a case in which they know they won't get any compensation by contingency!)

"Wah, wah, wah!!! I bought a 2001 Chevy, and now those bastards at GM came out with new 2002's!!! It's not fair! Wah, wah, wah!!!"



iBorg
MacBook Pro 2.33GHz, 15.4" Glossy, 160GB - and loving it!
     
seanyepez
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Jan 2, 2002, 11:53 PM
 
Precisely. Apple is not legally obligated to use its normal product announcement scheme.
     
 
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