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Electricity question
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tightsocks
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Oct 6, 2011, 09:15 AM
 
So, my old lady neighbor was telling me that her old slice style toaster caught on fire the other day. Now she wants to get a new toaster but she is afraid that the same thing will happen again with a new one.

She actually called the fire department (not for the fire, but for advice on a new toaster...)
Apparently, they recommended using appliances that have 3 prong plugs (we are in USA, btw).

So, now she has tasked me with finding her a toaster that uses a 3 prong plug, from a brand that she trusts (she mentioned that she trusts GE) and that is made in the USA!

I already told her that a new toaster that is made in USA does not exist. She seems to understand that.

But, my real question is about the 3 prong plug. Is it realistic for a toaster to have this type of plug??
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Oct 6, 2011, 09:22 AM
 
Why not?

We've got a Breville 2-slice toaster and it has a 3-prong plug. Of course that model in particular isn't cheap, but it's worked well for us - and it definitely looks great.
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subego
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Oct 6, 2011, 09:22 AM
 
I seem to remember my Dualit was grounded.

Toaster - Classic Original, Combi, Sandwich and Bun Toasters from Dualit

Also not cheap. Also looks good.
     
The Godfather
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Oct 6, 2011, 12:18 PM
 
Perhaps no toaster sold at home depot is made in the US, but have you looked at proffessional kitchen/restaurant supply warehouses? They are likely to carry more heavy duty stuff, made in the US, zero defect stuff.

They'll carry a made-in-US stickerprice.
     
ibook_steve
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Oct 6, 2011, 01:11 PM
 
There are a few things to note here. It's not mentioned what the cause of the fire was. Was it a burning piece of toast or was it an electrical fire caused by a short? If it was indeed an electrical fire, while a three-prong grounded outlet is a good idea (though I can't recall seeing them on toasters), it's more important that the outlet has a popping fuse (I forget what they're called) like what you have in the bathroom with the red and black buttons. Here in California, at least, I believe this is required in all houses.

If there is indeed a short in the toaster, the switch pops, shutting everything off before anything can start blazing.

Steve
Celebrating 10 years and 4000 posts on MacNN!
     
tightsocks  (op)
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Oct 6, 2011, 01:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by ibook_steve View Post
There are a few things to note here. It's not mentioned what the cause of the fire was. Was it a burning piece of toast or was it an electrical fire caused by a short? If it was indeed an electrical fire, while a three-prong grounded outlet is a good idea (though I can't recall seeing them on toasters), it's more important that the outlet has a popping fuse (I forget what they're called) like what you have in the bathroom with the red and black buttons. Here in California, at least, I believe this is required in all houses.

If there is indeed a short in the toaster, the switch pops, shutting everything off before anything can start blazing.

Steve
These are excellent points.
The kitchen and bathroom outlets in our apartmetn bldg. do have the GFI outlets.
It seems likely to me that the 'fire' was just a simple case of burnt toast to which she is over-reacting...
(our neighbor across the hall had a small fire in her oven last month - I'm thinking that she was jealous and wanted to have a fire of her own

A pro level toaster is definitely out of the question. We are talkin' cheap-o Walmart prices here.

My main question about all of this is as whether a grounded plug would really be any safer.
Although facts may not really matter to her - she wants to feel safe...
     
misc
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Oct 6, 2011, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by ibook_steve View Post
There are a few things to note here. It's not mentioned what the cause of the fire was. Was it a burning piece of toast or was it an electrical fire caused by a short? If it was indeed an electrical fire, while a three-prong grounded outlet is a good idea (though I can't recall seeing them on toasters), it's more important that the outlet has a popping fuse (I forget what they're called) like what you have in the bathroom with the red and black buttons. Here in California, at least, I believe this is required in all houses.

If there is indeed a short in the toaster, the switch pops, shutting everything off before anything can start blazing.

Steve

They are called GFCI (ground fault circuit interrupter) outlets and cost <$10.

"And after we are through, ten years in making it to be the most of glorious debuts."
     
misc
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Oct 6, 2011, 01:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by tightsocks View Post
These are excellent points.
The kitchen and bathroom outlets in our apartmetn bldg. do have the GFI outlets.
It seems likely to me that the 'fire' was just a simple case of burnt toast to which she is over-reacting...
(our neighbor across the hall had a small fire in her oven last month - I'm thinking that she was jealous and wanted to have a fire of her own

A pro level toaster is definitely out of the question. We are talkin' cheap-o Walmart prices here.

My main question about all of this is as whether a grounded plug would really be any safer.
Although facts may not really matter to her - she wants to feel safe...

NEC code states that any outlet in a "wet environment" needs to be GFCI. I believe the code is 6' from water (I can check my copy later).

Usually when toaster's go they go gloriously. I'm not sure having the casing grounded would have helped at all. But hey, if a grounded toaster makes her feel safer then sure, why not?

"And after we are through, ten years in making it to be the most of glorious debuts."
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 6, 2011, 01:53 PM
 
We have a grounded outlet and our toaster oven is 2 prong. I don't think the firehouse was doing her any favors saying get 3prong.

It's not going to help if she doesn't clean the crumbs out or turns the setting to "charcoal."
     
iMOTOR
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Oct 6, 2011, 02:13 PM
 
Most small appliances have a polarized plug where the neutral is tied to ground anyway. I agree that it probably wasn’t an electrical fire, she probably never cleaned the crumbs out of the tray.
     
reader50
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Oct 6, 2011, 02:25 PM
 
Look for a toaster with exposed metal. If there is exposed metal on the outside, then it should have a grounded cord. And I don't mean an isolated trim panel mounted on plastic. Part of the toaster's metal structural accessible to the customer, where they could touch it during normal use.

Once part of the metal structure is exposed, it no longer qualifies as double-insulated, and a 3-prong cord is required.
     
tightsocks  (op)
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Dec 2, 2011, 01:55 AM
 
I have another electricity related question!

I was looking at a house that was built in 1950 and seems to have the original wiring. (I am just guessing here). It has a small fuse box and the outlets are not 3 prong.

When the kitchen sink disposer is turned on the lights (at least in the kitchen) dim for a moment.

BUT, the house has had central air-conditioning added fairly recently.

The current owner says that there are no problems handling the loads, but I kind of wonder what would happen if I happened to use the disposal while the air conditioning was going and the dishwasher was running...
     
ghporter
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Dec 2, 2011, 08:16 AM
 
Central AC uses two kinds of electrical service; usually heavy-duty high current service to the compressor unit outside, and (depending on the size of the air handler) either high current or "split 220" (like an electric dryer) for the blower fan. Both would have been added for a retrofit installation.

The wiring in a 1950s vintage house won't really support a lot, and would be particularly well suited for complete and thorough replacement. You want something near today's code, both for capacity and safety. For example, in the 1950s, residential electrical wiring was 2 wires with paper/fabric insulation, often 14ga or so. You want modern, 3-wire, plastic insulated (UL tested for self extinguishing and lack of toxic vapors) with 12ga size wire for the typical 15 amp circuit, and you'll no doubt want a LOT more circuits than you'll find in that house. I'm guessing 2 or 3 outlets per room (max)? Modern code calls for at least one outlet on every wall, and outlets no more than 8 feet apart on long walls.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
andi*pandi
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Dec 2, 2011, 10:12 AM
 
If the AC is on the same circuit as the disposal and kitchen, maybe a problem? Maybe it's on a basement circuit that doesn't have much of a load? Whoever wired our house did some "interesting" wiring to balance the loads.

We have a similar issue in summer, upstairs with 3 window a/c units running, if we also run the vacuum the lights will dim.
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Dec 3, 2011 at 10:45 AM. Reason: not an electrician)
     
tightsocks  (op)
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Dec 2, 2011, 09:32 PM
 
It definitely seemed a little precarious.
     
imitchellg5
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Dec 3, 2011, 01:20 AM
 
My KitchenAid toaster has a three-prong plug. It's like 10 years old though.
     
ebuddy
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Dec 3, 2011, 09:04 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Why not?

We've got a Breville 2-slice toaster and it has a 3-prong plug. Of course that model in particular isn't cheap, but it's worked well for us - and it definitely looks great.
Originally Posted by subego
I seem to remember my Dualit was grounded.

Toaster - Classic Original, Combi, Sandwich and Bun Toasters from Dualit

Also not cheap. Also looks good.
When it comes to toast man, you guys don't play around. I thought I was bad with a Keurig Platinum coffeemaker, but a $130+ toaster? Eesh.
ebuddy
     
Waragainstsleep
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Dec 3, 2011, 01:18 PM
 
Some toasters are worth a hell of a lot more than $130....

I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Eug
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Dec 3, 2011, 03:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by tightsocks View Post
I was looking at a house that was built in 1950 and seems to have the original wiring. (I am just guessing here). It has a small fuse box and the outlets are not 3 prong.

When the kitchen sink disposer is turned on the lights (at least in the kitchen) dim for a moment.

BUT, the house has had central air-conditioning added fairly recently.

The current owner says that there are no problems handling the loads, but I kind of wonder what would happen if I happened to use the disposal while the air conditioning was going and the dishwasher was running...
What is the service to the house? 120 V 60 amps? If so, that's just not enough for a modern house. Note that some insurance companies won't insure a house with a 60 A service anyway. 100 amps? That might be enough, but mine's 200 amps. Mind you, I have a large house, and actually have two AC units and an electric dryer, all three of which could be running simultaneously.

Note also that some 2-prong wiring was knob and tube and I think they stopped installing that about 1950 in North America. Furthermore, some insurance companies are reluctant to insure two-prong electrical wiring, unless GFCI circuits are installed everywhere. If they do agree to insure, it they may charge a large amount extra, esp. if it's knob and tube.

I'm no electrician, but my understanding that even if you install GFCI outlets, while that will save you from electrocution, it won't protect your electronic equipment. Kiss your iMac goodbye... Personally, I would probably not buy a house without 3-wire grounded electrical, unless I planned on rewiring the entire house, even if it already had GFCI protected circuits everywhere.

BTW, rewiring a house is exactly what a friend of mine did to save on insurance. She had an early 1900s house with old knob-and-tube wiring. The insurance companies wanted so much extra money for the insurance that the cost of replacing the entire house wiring would pay for itself in well under a decade.
( Last edited by Eug; Dec 3, 2011 at 03:47 PM. )
     
chabig
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Dec 3, 2011, 06:49 PM
 
These two links provide clear explanations of electrical safety, what the ground pin does, and how GFI outlets work.

HowStuffWorks "What is the difference between two- and three-pronged plugs?"

WHY THREE PRONGS? Electrical ground, stray voltage
     
Eug
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Dec 3, 2011, 10:56 PM
 
So, does anyone have a 20 Amp 120 V plug-in appliance? I just did a basement reno, and it comes with these receptacles in the kitchen:



I've never actually seen such a kitchen appliance. This is what the plug looks like:

     
reader50
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Dec 4, 2011, 12:14 AM
 
You won't see that on a kitchen appliance. It's more likely on an air compressor or a large window air conditioner. (18K BTU or bigger)

Edit: a microwave rated 1500-2200 W would need that plug, or a 240v plug. But I haven't seen any microwaves rated that high.
     
Eug
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Dec 4, 2011, 12:31 AM
 
Yeah... My electrician said they're mandatory here now in kitchens. I'm not complaining since it can't hurt to have 20A circuits, but I was wondering why it was mandatory.

I could see it in a home tool shop or something though.

Note that the stove plug is separate, and is 240V 40A, although if it were my main kitchen upstairs I would have spec'd 50A since some of the induction stoves now recommend that (although it's not absolutely required). My microwave + fan combo is fine for a 15A circuit, as long as it's on its own circuit.

BTW, I'm looking at stand mixers at the moment, and the biggest home one I can find is the KitchenAid 7-quart with 1.3 HP motor, which works out to a little under 1000 watts, which would be totally fine on a 15 A circuit. Even the commercial Hobart 12-quart model apparently only draws 8 A max.

I could understand a table top microwave that high I suppose but I've never actually seen one.

EDIT:

Here we go. 2000 W for this commercial microwave, and it requires NEMA 5-20, for 16.8 A. I had thought the max recommended for a 20A circuit was 16A.

http://www.acpsolutions.com/pdfs/HDC12A2.pdf
( Last edited by Eug; Dec 4, 2011 at 12:43 AM. )
     
chabig
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Dec 4, 2011, 04:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
I'm not complaining since it can't hurt to have 20A circuits...
Bigger doesn't always mean better. Sometimes, the right answer is "enough" and not "the most". Twenty amp circuits cost more to install, so that's a consideration.
     
chabig
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Dec 4, 2011, 04:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
I had thought the max recommended for a 20A circuit was 16A.
It shouldn't matter. The circuit breaker will trip at 20, so you want some cushion below that, but it's not a precise amount.
     
subego
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Dec 4, 2011, 05:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
It shouldn't matter. The circuit breaker will trip at 20, so you want some cushion below that, but it's not a precise amount.
Or worse, your circuit breaker isn't torqued properly and won't trip.
     
chabig
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Dec 4, 2011, 05:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Or worse, your circuit breaker isn't torqued properly and won't trip.
There is also a margin of safety in the wiring and connectors. The circuit breaker is supposed to trip before the capabilities of the other components are exceeded. So for example (and this is completely made up), the wiring might be good to 25A. The CB is designed to trip at 20A. And the maximum load on the circuit is planned at 16A.
     
misc
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Dec 4, 2011, 06:03 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
So, does anyone have a 20 Amp 120 V plug-in appliance? I just did a basement reno, and it comes with these receptacles in the kitchen:



I've never actually seen such a kitchen appliance. This is what the plug looks like:


I use devices all the time that are 20amp (and more!) but they are certainly not home appliances.


GFCI's are required in bathrooms, kitchens and outdoors. AFCI's are required in all living areas. Read more here!

"And after we are through, ten years in making it to be the most of glorious debuts."
     
misc
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Dec 4, 2011, 06:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
I've never actually seen such a kitchen appliance. This is what the plug looks like:

These are NEMA 6-20 plugs: 20A, 250V, 2 pole, 3 wire non-locking.

"And after we are through, ten years in making it to be the most of glorious debuts."
     
ghporter
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Dec 4, 2011, 07:39 AM
 
While 20 amp service is indeed more expensive to install, it isn't a bad thing to have in a well-used circuit. If you only ever demand 15 amps from a circuit wired to safely handle 20 amps, the wiring will remain cooler, you'll have less resistive loss through the wiring, and be more efficient over all. Code for new US residential installations calls for 20 amp kitchen service to be wired with 12 gauge wire, while 15 amp service can be wired with 14 gauge. 12 gauge wire (US standard wire gauge) is 2.053mm in diameter, while 14 ga wire is 1.628mm in diameter. That difference in cross-sectional area equates to a really significant difference in resistive effects when you might be drawing 5A with one device and 8A with another on the same circuit...

When you look at what we used to get by with and think, "hey, it worked fine for them!", consider that scene in "A Christmas Story" where the dad finally plugs in the Christmas tree... Minimum required circuit capacity and number of circuits and outlets didn't change much from the early 1930s until the late 50s or early 60s...and has been growing rapidly with our greater and greater use of more and more electrical power in more and more parts of our lives.. Don't settle for "what dad got by with" when dad never had a 50+" flat screen TV, a 1500W sound system AND a computer with a fairly large monitor, all in the same room. What dad got by with would work fine for a (small) dorm room.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Eug
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Dec 4, 2011, 11:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by chabig View Post
Bigger doesn't always mean better. Sometimes, the right answer is "enough" and not "the most". Twenty amp circuits cost more to install, so that's a consideration.
Well, like I said, 20A is mandatory in the kitchen now.


Originally Posted by misc View Post
GFCI's are required in bathrooms, kitchens and outdoors. AFCI's are required in all living areas. Read more here!
Code here (Ontario) requires GFCI near sinks in the kitchen but not for all kitchen plugs. AFCI is required in bedrooms, but not living rooms for example, and didn't become required until recently. Furthermore, it's only required for the receptacles, and not the lights.

In the previously existing bedrooms of my house, I have no AFCI plugs. In the bedrooms of my new basement reno, they are AFCI.
     
   
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