Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

kauffee · Sep 9, 2005, 06:36 AM

Just a heads up that beta 1 of Firefox 1.5 was released. The released notes say they improved OS X performance, and from what I can tell that's definitely true. Page load times seem about on par with the old version and Safari, but the GUI responsive is tremendously improved over the old version.
Here's the link: http://www.mozilla.org/products/fire.../1.5beta1.html

rickey939 · Sep 9, 2005, 07:11 AM

So far, so good.

TETENAL · Sep 9, 2005, 08:23 AM

• Still disappears and reappears from the Dock when launched (twice! now double as often as before)
• Still can't drag windows with sheets
• Customize toolbar dialog still is not a sheet
• Tabs are still Panther-style
• Still no support for Services
• Still no spell-checking
• Still no proper focus rings
• Still no support for Apple HelpViewer

Firefox 1.5 – still no proper alternative to Safari.

wataru · Sep 9, 2005, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

• Still disappears and reappears from the Dock when launched (twice! now double as often as before)

This only happens the first time you launch it.

• Still can't drag windows with sheets
• Customize toolbar dialog still is not a sheet
• Still no proper focus rings
• Tabs are still Panther-style

So what?

• Still no support for Services
• Still no spell-checking
• Still no support for Apple HelpViewer

Somehow many people manage to use Firefox every day without any of these things.

Firefox 1.5 – still no proper alternative to Safari.

Safari has no proper extension system, is Mac-only - still no proper alternative to Firefox.

Stradlater · Sep 9, 2005, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

• Still disappears and reappears from the Dock when launched (twice! now double as often as before)
• Still can't drag windows with sheets
• Customize toolbar dialog still is not a sheet
• Tabs are still Panther-style
• Still no support for Services
• Still no spell-checking
• Still no proper focus rings
• Still no support for Apple HelpViewer

Firefox 1.5 – still no proper alternative to Safari.

Stradlater · Sep 9, 2005, 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by wataru

So what?

So it doesn't behave like a Mac program. These differences stand out and are quite ugly.

Somehow many people manage to use Firefox every day without any of these things.

Somehow people manage to get to work with a $100 used car. This doesn't mean that they wouldn't be better off in something more reliable.

Safari has no proper extension system, is Mac-only - still no proper alternative to Firefox.

SIMBL works well enough, and I find barebones Safari suitable enough for most things. AcidSearch is nice, though.

As far as the Mac-only comment. Yes. We're in a Mac forum. Most of us use Macs. Safari is available for it, so: great. Firefox is wonderful for PCs, but on a Mac, I'd rather be using Safari.

Horsepoo!!! · Sep 9, 2005, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by wataru

Safari has no proper extension system, is Mac-only - still no proper alternative to Firefox.

Somehow many people manage to use Safari every day without any of these 'extensions'.

Wow, it works both ways.

Mac-only? Not quite, WebKit is very much open-source. It's available for BeOS, Linux, Windows, AmigaOS...

But seriously though, if you're into ugly apps and ugly chicks, more power to ya.

wataru · Sep 9, 2005, 09:46 AM

Again with the ridiculous nitpicking from people who wouldn't know functionality if it bit them in the ass.

Use your crippled browser all you like. The rest of us will be enjoying all the things we can do that you can't.

Stradlater · Sep 9, 2005, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by wataru

Again with the ridiculous nitpicking from people who wouldn't know functionality if it bit them in the ass.

Use your crippled browser all you like. The rest of us will be enjoying all the things we can do that you can't.

Like what? Use an inferior RSS system?

Horsepoo!!! · Sep 9, 2005, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Stradlater

Like what? Use an inferior RSS system?

And inferior spellcheck and service support.

Millennium · Sep 9, 2005, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!!

Mac-only? Not quite, WebKit is very much open-source. It's available for BeOS, Linux, Windows, AmigaOS...

WebKit is open-source, but it is still very much Mac-only. If any WebKit-based browser has been released on any other platform, kindly point it out to me. There is talk of integrating it into GNUStep, which would significantly boost its cross-platform availablity, but that has not yet happened.

Konqueror does not count. Although it is an ancestor of WebKit, the code has diverged enough that WebKit is now very much its own thing, with its own advantages and disadvantages. Even if you were to count it, I don't know of any Konqueror ports for Be, Windows, or Amiga.

TETENAL · Sep 9, 2005, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Millennium

If any WebKit-based browser has been released on any other platform, kindly point it out to me.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/05/06/...phone.browser/

TETENAL · Sep 9, 2005, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by wataru

Again with the ridiculous nitpicking from people who wouldn't know functionality if it bit them in the ass.

I consider Services (the Mac's proper extensions system) and spellchecking functionality. In fact for me spellchecking is a killer feature for a web browser. If a browser doesn't have it, I won't use it. I consider sheets functionality, and I also consider proper focus rings functionality, so that I don't have to search for a hair-thin blinking line to find the text field that has keyboard focus.

wataru · Sep 9, 2005, 02:57 PM

Originally Posted by Stradlater

Like what? Use an inferior RSS system?

Sage is better than Safari's RSS system.

I've never found Services to be useful at all, and I learned how to spell in elementary school.

Firefox has sheets. If your gripe is that a sheeted window isn't draggable, please tell me how often you're dragging sheeted windows? I don't think I've ever done that. And since the prefs window is no longer a sheet, your opportunities to be annoyed by sheets are pretty much minimal.

As for focus rings, Firefoxy will give you perfectly normal-looking focus rings.

rickey939 · Sep 9, 2005, 03:10 PM

It's getting deep in here...and I forgot my boots!

Randman · Sep 9, 2005, 03:13 PM

I don't understand why some people have to jump to attack someone else's critical but constructive comments about a beta release.

Some people love FF, some like it and some dislike it. Get past that and discuss features (or items that are lacking as mentioned above).

Millennium · Sep 9, 2005, 03:20 PM

It bothers me when people consider spellchecking to be a dealbreaker. Why not just, I don't know, proofread your posts?

Randman · Sep 9, 2005, 03:24 PM

Like most people on the Internet would do that.

My view: 1.5 is getting better but it still lags behind Safari 2.0 in many ways. On Windows, it's another story but it already is champ there, imo.

von Wrangell · Sep 9, 2005, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Millennium

It bothers me when people consider spellchecking to be a dealbreaker. Why not just, I don't know, proofread your posts?

Because there are many that aren't native English speakers?

Stradlater · Sep 9, 2005, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Millennium

It bothers me when people consider spellchecking to be a dealbreaker. Why not just, I don't know, proofread your posts?

The deal-breaker for me is RSS, which, in my opinion, is implemented in a much better fashion in Safari than in Firefox. Additionally, Safari just feels more Mac-like; Firefox's various interface quirks (sheets, bookmark menus) are small annoyances, but just help me lean even further towards Safari. Spell checking is just another perk.

Stradlater · Sep 9, 2005, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by wataru

Sage is better than Safari's RSS system.

Agree to disagree.

I've never found Services to be useful at all, and I learned how to spell in elementary school.

Good for you. Apparently you learned how to be condescending, as well.

Firefox has sheets. If your gripe is that a sheeted window isn't draggable, please tell me how often you're dragging sheeted windows? I don't think I've ever done that. And since the prefs window is no longer a sheet, your opportunities to be annoyed by sheets are pretty much minimal.

As for focus rings, Firefoxy will give you perfectly normal-looking focus rings.

Concessions. All of these denigrate the Mac experience.

mania · Sep 9, 2005, 10:48 PM

firefox is a fantastic browser, we should not complain about an alternative. it does some things better than safari - dragging tabs in 1.5 is sweet - i hate that i cant do that in safari. also the bookmark bar in safari does not let you glide your mouse over them and it opens the submenus like in firefox. why do i have to click and click and click to get to a bookmark in safari but only one click in firefox? anyway safari is nice in many ways. i think they are both great - much better than internet exploder for windoze. those poor bastards who don't know any better.

opti · Sep 10, 2005, 04:08 AM

I'd like to sidestep some of the bickering here (a bit excessive considering the subject matter, I think) and offer my brief thoughts on the Firefox beta.

Although no one else seemed to acknowledge it, I was amazed at how sluggish Firefox 1.0 was on the Mac. At the time of its release, mind you, I thought Safari was also unbearably sluggish, and thus for some time I was using Camino. But Safari has seen incredible speed increases since then, while Firefox has remained in 1.0 land.

I decided to try out the Deer Park Alpha 2 recently just to see if things had progressed, and I was again amazed, but for very different reasons. The UI and especially page rendering had now become lightning fast (the latter clearly superior to Safari). I downloaded Firefox 1.5 beta 1 yesterday, and have used it a little more, again thoroughly impressed with its speed. Anyone who found this to be the major fault in 1.0, like me, will find little to complain about with 1.5.

Unfortunately, other issues still remain due to the fact that this is not a native Mac application, and does not behave like one in many regards. Working with text fields is frustrating, for instance (even buggy, it seems, in this release). It would be great if they could somehow implement native widgets in the Mac version, but I get the impression that would be difficult to pull off (otherwise it would have been taken care of already). And then there are various keyboard shortcuts and conventions that frustratingly don't translate from Safari, but that's something that one can get used to.

In short, its beta status is very evident in some areas, not the least of which is extension support. But once all the extensions are updated for 1.5, I may be tempted to switch.

His Dudeness · Sep 10, 2005, 05:50 AM

Originally Posted by Millennium

It bothers me when people consider spellchecking to be a dealbreaker. Why not just, I don't know, proofread your posts?

So wee haf to no how to spel or sumpin?

aronnax · Sep 10, 2005, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by opti

It would be great if they could somehow implement native widgets in the Mac version, but I get the impression that would be difficult to pull off (otherwise it would have been taken care of already).

yes, it is difficult - they have to rewrite the complete Gecko linking in OS X therefore
likely in FS 2.0 we will see it
look there http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mac:Home_Page#Cocoa_Widgets
and http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/josh/..._graphics.html
and http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/josh/...mac_build.html
it will enabled support for Services spell-checking likewise - the same in Camino

by the way, from me creates - some FF themes and a different Sage style
http://www.grapple.net.tf/

opti · Sep 10, 2005, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by aronnax

yes, it is difficult - they have to rewrite the complete Gecko linking in OS X therefore
likely in FS 2.0 we will see it
look there http://wiki.mozilla.org/Mac:Home_Page#Cocoa_Widgets
and http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/josh/..._graphics.html
and http://weblogs.mozillazine.org/josh/...mac_build.html
it will enabled support for Services spell-checking likewise - the same in Camino

by the way, from me creates - some FF themes and a different Sage style
http://www.grapple.net.tf/

Great post, concise and informative!

I remembered seeing a native-looking theme and was gonna go looking for one, your post saved me the offort. Great that there's something for Sage too!

Cadaver · Sep 10, 2005, 10:50 PM

OK, I've been playing with it, and it does feel snappy - but, one of the "big" features is better OS X support.

Um, ok, but what exactly is supported better? While faster, it seems otherwise the same to me.

Mediaman_12 · Sep 11, 2005, 11:58 AM

For evryone who wants Spellchecking, I was going to suggest the SpellBound extension Unfortunately (like lots of the great extensions that make Firefox a great browser) it's not 1.4 ready yet

Looks like I was wrong, It's just that there is a different version for the post 'Deer Park' versions.
Go to the above link and click the 'installation' link on the left to download/install.

Stecchino · 06:43 PM

Why get emotional about someone else's choice of browser? OMG, save your energy. These forums are good for pointing out the pros and cons of software and other Mac-related topics but there's no need to get nasty.

Tell everyone what you like and why but take a breath and compose yourself before you compose your post.

That being said, I've yet to experience any negative effects from the 1.5 beta 1. It seems on track to me.

One definite plus that I've appreciated is that FireFox now seems to take up less than 1% of my CPU when idle versus version 1.0.6 which varied between 1-8% for me.

wataru · 11:08 AM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

• Still can't drag windows with sheets

Fixed. Oh my god, it's so much more Mac-like now! This makes all the difference in the world!

TETENAL · Sep 14, 2005, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by wataru

Fixed. Oh my god, it's so much more Mac-like now! This makes all the difference in the wold!

For sheets, yes, that makes quite a difference. Good to see this fixed. There are still the other 3 dozens or so issues on Mac that make Firefox the inferior choice for me. That doesn't mean I have a problem with you liking it. I won't roll my eyes because you use another browser than I do.

xmacintosh · Sep 14, 2005, 01:11 PM

Firefox 1.5 for Mac does not show icon in bookmarks... Windows version shows... why?

aronnax · Sep 14, 2005, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by xmacintosh

Firefox 1.5 for Mac does not show icon in bookmarks... Windows version shows... why?

Display favicons in Bookmarks menu for Mac version
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=219846

--------
on the Bookmarks Toolbar
its not a bug is a feature ;-)

Randman · Sep 14, 2005, 02:18 PM

I'm having a javascript problem in Firefox. Anyone else?

hotani · Sep 14, 2005, 03:59 PM

Firefox on PC frikkin rocks. I *really* want to use it at home on the mac, but seem to be having problems specific to my box:

1- (minor) when it opens, there are no menus. I have to click away to something else, then click back to FF before they show up. I could live with this if it weren't for #2:
2- (major) very frequently, I will lose all use of form fields. Including the address bar. I can't click in it and get a cursor, can't enter text, just have to restart FF. I haven't heard of anyone else having this problem so I guess it is something wonky with my setup.

DeathMan · Sep 14, 2005, 07:32 PM

I don't like how the form widgets look worse on the mac than on the pc. You'd think they'd look better.

wataru:

God is in the details.

wataru · Sep 14, 2005, 07:48 PM

I know people don't like to read the threads, but please. For ugly form widgets, use Firefoxy.

DeathMan · Sep 14, 2005, 11:01 PM

I already use them, and they're a weak imitation of native widgets.

finknottle · Sep 15, 2005, 02:34 AM

Hotani, I have the same problem

TheAlbinoBowler · Oct 2, 2005, 12:40 AM

Hotani and finknottle, are you you guys using codetek virtual desktop? if you're using an older version of it, it causes those problems with firefox. i think they've released a new version that solves the problems, so grab that if you think that may be the problem.

CharlesS · Oct 2, 2005, 02:11 AM

God, what is with all the browser zealotry? Some people really need to cool it.

For every one of their features that you say "somehow many people manage to use xyz browser every day without these things", remember that there are even more people that manage to use Internet Explorer every day without any of your features.

What I want to know, and what is unquestionably the most important thing to know about this version of Firefox, is whether they've fixed this huge design flaw that makes Firefox less secure than IE on Windows. Yes, you heard that right. They were supposed to fix this flaw in 1.5. Have they?

xmacintosh · Oct 7, 2005, 08:23 AM

Beta 2 released. What's new.

Macrat · Oct 7, 2005, 10:21 AM

Does flash work at all for anyone? It was always extremely flaky before, but now it doesnt seem to work.

TETENAL · Oct 7, 2005, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Macrat

Does flash work at all for anyone? It was always extremely flaky before, but now it doesnt seem to work.

Works fine for me with Firefox 1.5 b2 and Flash 8,0,22,0. It hasn't been flaky before for me.

Macrat · Oct 7, 2005, 10:46 PM

Turned out Adblock was causing a conflict with Flash, hopefully it will be updated soon.

- - e r i k - - · Oct 9, 2005, 07:19 PM

Hey, I love Firefox. It is an awesome browser with excellent features and an unparalleled extension system. But as for the mac-version it clearly lacks the spit and polish that we expect our apps to have. If it feels clunky, even in certain aspects it just won't be used when there's a great built-in alternative like Safari. If we were stuck with IE still, there would be no contest. None!

However, Safari is a great browser. It looks good, functions perfectly, has great developers working on it, is open-source and the latest builds (which improves features and speed) readily availible for everyone to download. It also has extensibility, with extensions like SAFT and PithHelmet providing extra functionality in areas where it might seem lacking.

Firefox has some catching up to do to be an alternative on the mac platform, there's no point discussing that even.

Insurgent · Oct 10, 2005, 10:38 PM

Is there a G4/5 optimized version available?