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Repeal of Obamacare (Page 6)
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Laminar
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Mar 10, 2017, 11:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Sure, I plan on spending the next 2-3 days digging through every appropriations bill they've passed over the last several months looking for it. I'll get right on that.
Ah, so you were making stuff up again. Got it.
     
Cap'n Tightpants
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Mar 10, 2017, 11:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Ah, so you were making stuff up again. Got it.
Reading comprehension is hard, but not as hard as digging through 1000s of pages of congressional appropriations paperwork.
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The Final Dakar
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Mar 10, 2017, 11:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Where did they stand on the ACA?
     
Laminar
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Mar 10, 2017, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Where did they stand on the ACA?
In favor.

http://www.theamericannurse.org/2012...still-the-law/

Following the June 28 court ruling, which also upheld the “minimum coverage provision,” ANA took its message nationally, calling it a victory for all patients and their families and particularly those 50 million adults and children who currently lack health care coverage. The court’s decision to permit states to opt out of participation in the ACA’s expansion of Medicaid, despite a generous federal subsidy to participating states, may dilute this promise for some people; but the overall opportunity to expand access to needed care is unparalleled since the 1965 passage of Medicare and Medicaid.
     
Laminar
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Mar 10, 2017, 12:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Reading comprehension is hard, but not as hard as digging through 1000s of pages of congressional appropriations paperwork.
So was this plan:

1. Designed over the past few years as Republicans planned to repeal and replace?
2. Designed over the past couple of months since Republicans were finally able to pass an appropriation bill to fund the research required to revamp the health system?
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 10, 2017, 12:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
That sounds like after the SCOTUS case. A more fair comparison would be how they felt before the vote.
     
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Mar 10, 2017, 03:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Are you saying that the general public will read and understand medical research papers? That people have a good sense of effective drugs? In a world where the most reliably effective drug is a placebo and people pay $4 for a bottle of tap water because it's well-marketed?
No, but the doctors prescribing these drugs would, and would be able to explain to their patients why X drug isn't great because it's super expensive and not at all effective in treatment.
     
Laminar
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Mar 10, 2017, 03:47 PM
 
When social media disagrees with doctors on vaccinations, what happens? Outbreaks of measles, whooping cough, and other diseases we cured long ago.
     
Snow-i
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Mar 10, 2017, 03:59 PM
 
Also, I am not against additional regulations on commercial advertisement of drugs. That would be after fixing the medical tort problem (and associated cost of malpractice insurance which gets added on to the total cost of care), which frankly is a far bigger problem today.
     
Snow-i
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Mar 10, 2017, 04:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
When social media disagrees with doctors on vaccinations, what happens? Outbreaks of measles, whooping cough, and other diseases we cured long ago.
You can't fix stupid, laminar. Definitely not with legislation. That statement is true under any medical system.

That's where the community needs to step in to educate, and fight with fear of vaccination with fear of the diseases the vaccinations prevent. I hate to say it, but these idiots espousing stupid viewpoints are most intelligently fought by using the same tactics to reach the same audience.
     
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Mar 10, 2017, 04:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
You can't fix stupid, laminar. Definitely not with legislation. That statement is true under any medical system.

That's where the community needs to step in to educate, and fight with fear of vaccination with fear of the diseases the vaccinations prevent. I hate to say it, but these idiots espousing stupid viewpoints are most intelligently fought by using the same tactics to reach the same audience.
One very basic fact that it seems many on the right seem to disregard when it comes to healthcare is that it is, by it's very nature, a societal issue. While there is a argument to be made for individual responsibility for many aspects of life, economics, and politics, all healthcare is public healthcare. When people are sick, they are not productive. When too many people become unproductive, the impact can be enormous.

You said it perfectly, you can't fix stupid. Unfortunately, stupid is legion, and relying on stupid to look after itself will not end with stupid and his kids dying. Eventually, your wallet, and your health, will be affected. This is the rest of the developed world has figured out that leaving healthcare up to individuals and the 'market' gets you results such as leading the first world in infant mortality rates.

I understand that for those on the right there is a knee-jerk aversion to anything run by a central government, but if you look at it as an national defence issue, maybe there is a way forward. The US loses a hell of a lot more citizens to third-rate heath care than they do to foreign military aggression. And if saving lives isn't enough, the US loses more in productivity as well.
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 10, 2017, 04:49 PM
 
Any thoughts on the current proposed legislation snow-I?
     
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Mar 10, 2017, 08:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Any thoughts on the current proposed legislation snow-I?
At first glance, certainly not happy with it. Unfortunately I haven't had time to dig into the details but my first impressions are not good.
     
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Mar 10, 2017, 08:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
One very basic fact that it seems many on the right seem to disregard when it comes to healthcare is that it is, by it's very nature, a societal issue. While there is a argument to be made for individual responsibility for many aspects of life, economics, and politics, all healthcare is public healthcare. When people are sick, they are not productive. When too many people become unproductive, the impact can be enormous.

You said it perfectly, you can't fix stupid. Unfortunately, stupid is legion, and relying on stupid to look after itself will not end with stupid and his kids dying. Eventually, your wallet, and your health, will be affected. This is the rest of the developed world has figured out that leaving healthcare up to individuals and the 'market' gets you results such as leading the first world in infant mortality rates.

I understand that for those on the right there is a knee-jerk aversion to anything run by a central government, but if you look at it as an national defence issue, maybe there is a way forward. The US loses a hell of a lot more citizens to third-rate heath care than they do to foreign military aggression. And if saving lives isn't enough, the US loses more in productivity as well.
You make a good point that it's a societal issue, and also that stupid is legion.

I don't think the ACA was the answer, and my first impressions of the GOP solution is equally as disappointing. None of it seems to address the problem, as I outlined earlier in the thread. I will have more for you guys when I can get some time to really take a look at the GOP legislation.
     
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Mar 11, 2017, 12:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
So was this plan:

1. Designed over the past few years as Republicans planned to repeal and replace?
2. Designed over the past couple of months since Republicans were finally able to pass an appropriation bill to fund the research required to revamp the health system?
Is it so hard to understand that they're just now really starting to work on it? The shit they're pushing now isn't what will be adopted, it's fodder.
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Mar 11, 2017, 04:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
You make a good point that it's a societal issue, and also that stupid is legion.

I don't think the ACA was the answer, and my first impressions of the GOP solution is equally as disappointing. None of it seems to address the problem, as I outlined earlier in the thread. I will have more for you guys when I can get some time to really take a look at the GOP legislation.
IMO the flaw in the ACA was that it took the reasonable view that universal healthcare is essential for a society to perform to it's highest potential and tried to wedge that principle in to a market based framework. Going back to the national defence analogy, we don't say to our citizens that they need to pay individually pay for their own defence, and, at a time of conflict, those without a 'defence insurance policy' are 'on your own.'

Even if one were to make that argument (and there are plenty who would- the young or idealistic that don't want their money going to the military), it's irrelevant. You either defend the entire nation or none of it.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Mar 11, 2017, 09:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Is it so hard to understand that they're just now really starting to work on it? The ganja they're pushing now isn't what will be adopted, it's fodder.
Was there an appropriation bill to fund the research of what has been proposed?
     
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Mar 11, 2017, 09:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
IMO the flaw in the ACA was that it took the reasonable view that universal healthcare is essential for a society to perform to it's highest potential and tried to wedge that principle in to a market based framework. Going back to the national defence analogy, we don't say to our citizens that they need to pay individually pay for their own defence, and, at a time of conflict, those without a 'defence insurance policy' are 'on your own.'

Even if one were to make that argument (and there are plenty who would- the young or idealistic that don't want their money going to the military), it's irrelevant. You either defend the entire nation or none of it.
I agree. The ACA was an improvement over what existed prior, but was quite imperfect. What would be ideal is to stop trying to force a market based solution out of this. There doesn't seem to be one (I don't think insurance companies operating in more states is really a massive improvement either, just an incremental one).
     
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Mar 11, 2017, 12:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Is it so hard to understand that they're just now really starting to work on it? The shit they're pushing now isn't what will be adopted, it's fodder.
Why are you so hell bent on giving these assholes a pass? They've had 7 ****ing years to come up with an alternate plan. 7 years they've been screaming about repealing the Affordable Care Act. They voted over 50 times to repeal, cripple or delay measures related to the law. Now that they have their chance, they are completely and utterly unprepared. How can you have any confidence in them? They're bozos. Paul Ryan doesn't even understand how insurance works:

Originally Posted by Paul Ryan
The fatal conceit of Obamacare is that ‘We’re just going to make everybody buy our health insurance at the federal government level; young and healthy people are going to go into the market and pay for the older, sicker people.’ So the young healthy person is going to be made to buy health care, and they’re going to pay for the person, you know, who gets breast cancer in her 40s. Or who gets heart disease in his 50s.

So take a look at this chart. The red slice here are what I would call people with preexisting conditions. People who have real health-care problems. The blue is the rest of the people in the individual market — that’s the market where people don’t get health insurance at their jobs where they buy it themselves. The whole idea of Obamacare is the people on the blue side pay for the people on the red side. The people who are healthy pay for the people who are sick.
Yes Paul. The healthy people pay for the sick people. It's how health insurance works.
     
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Mar 11, 2017, 01:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Why are you so hell bent on giving these assholes a pass? They've had 7 ****ing years to come up with an alternate plan. 7 years they've been screaming about repealing the Affordable Care Act.
I've already gone over this, go back and read the last couple pages.
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Mar 11, 2017, 01:30 PM
 
So CTP, is what you are saying that the current healthcare plan is fodder, and the real one will come after an appropriations bill is passed?
     
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Mar 11, 2017, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I've already gone over this, go back and read the last couple pages.
I have read it. Your argument is silly. You're basically saying it's hard and takes time and money. That's their frickin job. Make laws. But you're missing my point. This isn't just any issue. This is THE issue that EVERY republican has been harping on non-stop for 7 years. To not be ready when they have the chance makes them look incompetent and ineffectual. I'm not arguing the merits of the new proposal, just that it has obviously been cobbled together at the last minute and by your own admission isn't to be taken seriously. I wish I had their jobs. I actually have to produce something worthwhile for my paycheck.
     
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Mar 11, 2017, 03:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
I have read it. Your argument is silly. You're basically saying it's hard and takes time and money. That's their frickin job. Make laws.
While it's touted that Jesus could turn water into wine, no one can create good legislation without appropriation for research. Replacing one bad system that wasn't properly researched with another that's the same won't fix anything, which is why we won't see a real successor to the ACA for a while. While it would have been nice to see congress critters pay for it all out of their staff budgets and personal finances, there's not that much altruism in national politics.
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The Final Dakar
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Mar 12, 2017, 06:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
At first glance, certainly not happy with it. Unfortunately I haven't had time to dig into the details but my first impressions are not good.
What are your first impressions?
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 12, 2017, 06:39 PM
 

Yeah, so many people would ditch medicaid if only the individual mandate weren't there. **** this guy.

Also, I still can't believe Tucker Carlson called him out on this:
CARLSON: That's right, you just said you don't have to meet every promise in this first round... but also, you have the overview here is that all the wealth basically in the last ten years is stuck to the top. That's one of the reasons we've had all this political turmoil as you know. It's so, kind of a hard sell to say yeah, we're going to repeal Obamacare but were going to send more money to people who have already gotten the richest over the last ten years, that's what this does, no? I'm not leftist, that's just true.

PAUL RYAN: I'm not that concerned about it because we said we were going to repeal all of the Obamacare taxes and this was one of the Obamacare taxes.
"Rich people will get tax cuts on the backs of poor people losing insurance."
"I'm not concerned about it."

The Republican party distilled.
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 12, 2017, 06:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Yes Paul. The healthy people pay for the sick people. It's how health insurance works.
He was saying it didn't work because not enough healthy people signed up.

Of course, his legislation doesn't really address that problem.
     
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Mar 12, 2017, 06:50 PM
 
Well when millions of Trump voters lose something concrete like health insurance "coverage" and gain this nebulous something or another the GOP labels "freedom" we'll see how they feel about it once the rubber meets the road.

OAW
     
besson3c  (op)
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Mar 13, 2017, 09:56 AM
 
CTP: are you regretting having voted for Donald Trump?
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 13, 2017, 11:20 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
CTP: are you regretting having voted for Donald Trump?
You may want to check your receipts on that one.
     
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Mar 13, 2017, 11:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
What are your first impressions?
That it's being pushed as "not the ACA" as if that is somehow worth supporting in it of itself, and also that it does not address what I believe to be the root cause of the issue - Healthcare costs are too expensive under the current system of insurance, medical tort, etc. If it's not going to address the cause of the problem, what the hell is the point?

Admittedly, this is from a very high-level understanding of what's being pushed. Shamefully, I don't really want to spend hours researching it until it's close/closer to being passed.
     
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Mar 13, 2017, 11:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
You may want to check your receipts on that one.
Well, who is to say that my claim that he voted for Trump is any different than his claims about things like appropriation bills?
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 13, 2017, 04:12 PM
 
CBO says 14 million uninsured from AHCA. That's like almost all of ACAs coverage numbers, isn't it?
     
The Final Dakar
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Mar 13, 2017, 05:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
That it's being pushed as "not the ACA" as if that is somehow worth supporting in it of itself, and also that it does not address what I believe to be the root cause of the issue - Healthcare costs are too expensive under the current system of insurance, medical tort, etc. If it's not going to address the cause of the problem, what the hell is the point?

Admittedly, this is from a very high-level understanding of what's being pushed. Shamefully, I don't really want to spend hours researching it until it's close/closer to being passed.
I can't disagree with the first conclusion, though they are billing it as what people asked for.

I hear tort reform mentioned from time to time but I never hear anything conclusive about it.

Also, since you've brought this up in the past, did you know the ACA had a provision to sell across state lines? It wasn't full-blown free market, but interesting none the less: Insurers not interested in selling ObamaCare across state lines | TheHill
Under the law, two or more states can band together into what’s called a “healthcare choice compact.” That means people can buy health coverage from another state that wouldn’t be subjected to the rules of their home state, as long as those states agree.

States would have to explicitly pass legislation to empower insurers to enter into these agreements.

Thirteen states have tried to pass these laws since ObamaCare was signed in 2010, in part because of a push by the powerful conservative group American Legislative Exchange Council.

Only three states have approved those laws — Kentucky, Georgia and Maine — although none have actually made deals with other states to sell their plans, according to the National Conference of State Legislatures.
I imagine when the ACA sets federal minimums, having access to states with different rules isn't as enticing or useful. Though it might help with diluting some of those risk pools.
     
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Mar 13, 2017, 06:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
CTP: are you regretting having voted for Donald Trump?
I voted for Johnson.
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Mar 13, 2017, 06:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Well, who is to say that my claim that he voted for Trump is any different than his claims about things like appropriation bills?
How do you feel about voting for Hillary? Oh, that's right, the thing about you becoming a citizen was BS.
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Mar 13, 2017, 06:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
How do you feel about voting for Hillary? Oh, that's right, the thing about you becoming a citizen was BS.
You voted for Trump.
     
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Mar 13, 2017, 07:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
You voted for Trump.
Nope, but at least I could vote in the US election.
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Mar 13, 2017, 07:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Nope, but at least I could vote in the US election.
See how frustrating it is to be around people that just say stuff they can't back up, Trump voter?
     
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Mar 13, 2017, 07:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
See how frustrating it is to be around people that just say stuff they can't back up, Trump voter?
Is it, fake American?
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Mar 13, 2017, 07:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Is it, fake American?

You get stuck on really, really, really weird things. What difference does my citizenship status make? I'm a guy on the internet, just like you.

P.S. you voted for Trump.
     
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Mar 13, 2017, 07:34 PM
 
After you told everyone that you became a US citizen, so you could vote, and are now trying to grill me over who I voted for? That's not weird.
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Mar 13, 2017, 07:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
After you told everyone that you became a US citizen, so you could vote, and are now trying to grill me over who I voted for? That's not weird.

I'm grilling you over making stuff up, like the stuff you said about appropriations bills, like the stuff you do constantly. If you can make stuff up, why can't the rest of us, Trump voter?
     
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Mar 14, 2017, 01:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'm grilling you over making stuff up, like the stuff you said about appropriations bills, like the stuff you do constantly. If you can make stuff up, why can't the rest of us, Trump voter?
Fine, I guess it's better than Hillary. Making shit up, you mean like telling everyone you're now a US citizen? The irony is thick here.
( Last edited by Cap'n Tightpants; Mar 14, 2017 at 02:30 AM. )
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Mar 14, 2017, 01:52 AM
 
Enact Obamacare -> prices go up
Repeal Obamacare -> prices go up

     
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Mar 14, 2017, 08:36 AM
 
So, Republicans had 7 years to come up with an Obamacare replacement and didn't. Do you guys know any right-wingers who are disappointed and/or angry about this?
     
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Mar 14, 2017, 08:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So, Republicans had 7 years to come up with an Obamacare replacement and didn't. Do you guys know any right-wingers who are disappointed and/or angry about this?
Almost as dumb as having a referendum of leaving the EU and not having a single plan in place in case the "unthinkable" gets thought.

Hey ho.
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subego
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Mar 14, 2017, 09:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
So, Republicans had 7 years to come up with an Obamacare replacement and didn't. Do you guys know any right-wingers who are disappointed and/or angry about this?
Enacting a law takes political capital. There's no point to making the law without knowing how much is available to spend, so they shouldn't be faulted for waiting.

When it comes to dismantling current legislation without having completed a good portion of the grunt-work on the replacement? Fault away.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Mar 14, 2017, 09:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Enacting a law takes political capital. There's no point to making the law without knowing how much is available to spend, so they shouldn't be faulted for waiting.

When it comes to dismantling current legislation without having completed a good portion of the grunt-work on the replacement? Fault away.

That's just it. I wouldn't fault them for not being able to pass their legislation under Obama, but to not have something ready for when they get their day to repeal, like they wasted time trying to do 239048029348092 times under Obama?

This bugs me not so much because I want to enshrine and protect the ACA in its current iteration, but because destructive politics of any kind bugs me. Trying to repeal with no end-game is destructive.
     
Laminar
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Mar 14, 2017, 09:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Brien View Post
Enact Obamacare -> prices go up
Repeal Obamacare -> prices go up

Health care costs or health care premiums?

Covering swaths of previous uninsured or uninsurable people was bound to raise costs. Insurers didn't deny those with preexisting conditions because it was fun.

Obama repeatedly expressed his wish to increase subsidies to reduce premiums, but that would mean another tax hike, and that was politically impossible. He didn't want it to be unaffordable.

Premiums have gone up under Obama, and by a lot - a 26% increase from 2009-2014. But remember that health care premiums increased by 72% from 1999-2004 and 34% from 2004-2009.

Whether Obamacare limited health care costs from spiraling out of control as they had been doing for the past decade, or whether the slow in growth was the market naturally topping out, we need to look at the whole picture.
     
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Mar 14, 2017, 09:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
This bugs me not so much because I want to enshrine and protect the ACA in its current iteration, but because destructive politics of any kind bugs me. Trying to repeal with no end-game is destructive.
The question is why doesn't destructive politics bug the right?

Their guys refuse to do their jobs and they cheer instead of calling for their heads. We are one step away from the right blaming the left for allowing them to elect Republicans to **** things up.
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