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Why Does Most Software Suck? (Page 3)
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voodoo
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Aug 9, 2011, 10:50 AM
 
As for software sucking, ironically I think it has a lot to do with the current "success" of the Mac. Back in the 90s when the Mac was "dying" and Windows reigned so supreme it was scary, Mac software was in general of much higher quality than the Windows software. There existed good or at least ok Windows software, for sure, but it was harder to find. On the Mac it was easy to find.

The few apps that we had, they were good, well maintained and of high quality - there simply wasn't space in the Mac market for bad apps. On the Windows side there was and has always been a generous space for less than adequate apps, and now on the Mac, especially with the "no-demos" App store, this segment is just increasing on the Mac.

There are more newbies, there are more people with more money than sense and there are still far too many who think the Mac is automatically "just better". Good software appears when the users demand it, not just when the users expect it.
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freudling  (op)
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Aug 9, 2011, 11:57 AM
 
Ok...

Hmmmm... does anyone actually like iMovie? I hate it. I used to love the first versions. It was so friendly. Then it moved over to the black, bleeding mess that it is. It's clunky and complicated in ways that it never was.

Anyone else feel the same way?
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 9, 2011, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Ok...

Hmmmm... does anyone actually like iMovie? I hate it. I used to love the first versions. It was so friendly. Then it moved over to the black, bleeding mess that it is. It's clunky and complicated in ways that it never was.

Anyone else feel the same way?
I *MUCH* prefer it over the pre-iMovie 08 versions. WAY faster to get stuff done, much more straightforward, much less redundant in terms of eating disk space, and since iMovie '11, the only thing missing for my needs would be switching between multiple tracks of aligned video. Ironically, they haven't yet added that feature into Final Cut Pro X, either, so I couldn't go that route, even if I wanted to.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 9, 2011, 12:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Again, there's no difference in image quality between a glossy screen and a matte screen. An actual matte screen is covered with non-reflective plastic, and doesn't sacrifice any image quality by doing so. Modern LCDs are just that much better than before, something you try to convince yourself is because they are glossy, not in spite of it.
Matte screens tend to handle glare better, due to a polarized coating over the glass that diffuses ambient light. A side effect of the matte finish is a slight blurring, reduced contrast and a narrower viewing angle.
LCD Monitors: Glossy vs. Matte - Popular Mechanics

It's funny because I actually have two current-model 15" MacBook Pros side by side every day at one job — matte and glossy — and the difference is readily apparent to even my layman's eye (like I say, I'm not a graphics guy).


Wait, it just occurred to me:
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Wrong, wrong and completely wrong. Matte comes at no price of contrast or saturation, and comes with the benefit of some visibility in direct sunlight, while glossy makes it impossible to see anything (anything at all except reflection) in direct sunlight.

So with glossy, people just lose visibility and gain nothing. Two exactly identical LCDs one with the glossy glass and the other without are exactly the same in contrast and color. Except one has an annoying glass cover.
What the hell are you talking about?

Taking the glass off an iMac does NOT result in a matte screen!

That's a GLOSSY screen behind the glass!

Matte screens have always been coated with an extra layer of plastic at the factory.

Could this misunderstanding be why it seems like you haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about?
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 9, 2011, 12:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
you sure like to dish insults, and think that anyone disagreeing with you is insulting you, perhaps you need to look in the mirror a little bit if you're looking for the one doing the insults.
1:
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
How dumb would you have to be to think that the glass changes the monitor underneath, the actual displaying mechanism? Did you ever complete that thought?
2:
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
I can't imagine what's wrong with the people who like the gloss and don't have the same 80s nostalgia as I do.
3:
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
So you're saying they're Apple sycophants like you are
and a handful of others that were closer to bullying than outright insults.

I don't mind that kind of jackassery much, anymore, but you're a liar, as well, so I'll call you on it.

I won't continue this sidetrack.
     
voodoo
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Aug 9, 2011, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I *MUCH* prefer it over the pre-iMovie 08 versions. WAY faster to get stuff done, much more straightforward, much less redundant in terms of eating disk space, and since iMovie '11, the only thing missing for my needs would be switching between multiple tracks of aligned video. Ironically, they haven't yet added that feature into Final Cut Pro X, either, so I couldn't go that route, even if I wanted to.
Yeah, you would like it much better, because of what you consider to be an insult; i.e. Apple can do no wrong in your world. Meanwhile in the real world, people disliked iMovie 08 so much that Apple included the previous version for free if you bought iMovie 08. In fact the consensus is that the latest iMovie has only started to become as useful as iMovie 06.
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voodoo
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Aug 9, 2011, 12:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
LCD Monitors: Glossy vs. Matte - Popular Mechanics

It's funny because I actually have two current-model 15" MacBook Pros side by side every day at one job — matte and glossy — and the difference is readily apparent to even my layman's eye (like I say, I'm not a graphics guy).
at the you quoting the Popular Mechanics article for support, which just says Glossy screens produce an image that's generally regarded as "richer." Admittedly, that's a nebulous term,

and

But I wouldn't be too afraid of a matte finish. Most of us use our screens in mixed light where the minor qualitative difference is offset by the anti-reflective benefit.




Taking the glass off an iMac does NOT result in a matte screen!
Nope, but it does result in a far less reflective and annoying screen. You don't know what the hell you're talking about, nor do you seem capable of reading what I wrote, and prefer to tow the Apple-line no matter what. Take the glass of the iMac, compare to a matte screen of the same type: difference in quality is not noticeable, except the untreated screen is more reflective. Hardly glossy, though.

You can't just make Apple's sales pitch the truth, by repeating it enough.
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voodoo
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Aug 9, 2011, 12:41 PM
 
1: The assumption that the glass on top of the iMac makes the colors more vibrant and the contrast sharper, is then? What? Smart? Truth hurts, but it's no insult.

2: I didn't count on the perfectly valid point that many people like what they see in the reflection, but apart from that, the point stands.

3: You are an Apple sycophant. In fact I'm probably the last person on this forum to point that out to you.


Now for your own insults and personal attacks:
I don't mind that kind of jackassery much, anymore, but you're a liar, as well, so I'll call you on it.
Do you make up *everything* as you go along?
I know exactly what's "wrong" with them: They're not you.
That's just embarrassing, now.
insulting, and at the same time making a huge mistake in understanding the definition of "tactile"

-1, Troll.
etc. Calling me a bully is going to get you far, kid.

I won't continue this sidetrack.
You always had that option, but decided agains it so far. Take your fake indignation and be well.
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Spheric Harlot
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Aug 9, 2011, 02:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
at the you quoting the Popular Mechanics article for support, which just says Glossy screens produce an image that's generally regarded as "richer." Admittedly, that's a nebulous term,
That's gotta be some sort of record for dishonest quoting.

The sentence you cut off continues verbatim "…but essentially it means there is more color depth and vibrancy."

That's what it "just" says.

**** off, my four-year-old has better argumentative tricks than that.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 9, 2011, 02:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Yeah, you would like it much better, because of what you consider to be an insult; i.e. Apple can do no wrong in your world.
I think it's funny that this is your response to a post where I criticize that Final Cut Pro X doesn't support multi-cam, because that's a function I'd like to have.

I'm just gonna repeat a post I've already made (twice?):
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I'm actually going to bother explaining my stance on Apple products (rather than my understanding of their business politics, which are a rather different matter): Every once in a while, Apple makes a product that fits my budget and my needs. My current main machine is a four-year-old MacBook that's falling apart, but Apple's current offerings aren't compelling me to upgrade.

I suppose that makes me a total fanboy because I don't start thread after thread on this forum complaining how Apple is missing the needs of consumers and/or professionals. Because, you know, I can live with the fact that they don't sell an i5 13" MacBook pro with hi-Rez matte screen for $1100. I'm an apologist for accepting that their reasons are probably good ones, and that their need to run a business probably trumps my desired specs.

Or maybe you're a total loser for thinking that you have me all figured out from the three posts of mine that you read when you pop in here once every three months.

At any rate, I think you're needlessly offensive, and I'd appreciate if you could just leave me alone rather than act all cool, like you've seen somebody play asshole cop on TV or something.
FWIW: I've also been called an "Apple hater" on this forum for my criticism of their mandatory registration when you install OS X.

(Note that I jumped on the i7 13" MacBook Pro when it came out — I couldn't be much happier save for the fact that it would suffice to have an external optical drive at home, rather than on the road.)
     
Atheist
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Aug 9, 2011, 05:09 PM
 
I've been developing software for over 25 years and I can tell you one of the main reasons why a lot of software sucks is that us developers are never given enough time to write it. Now granted, I don't write commercial software, but rather custom applications for large businesses but it's pretty much the same.

Someone also mentioned something about not talking to the users enough. Let me tell you, most users haven't a freakin' clue how they even do their own job. Trying to get them to explain it in a coherent way is next to impossible. And no matter how much you try to get them involved in the development process they will always have more important things to do. Invariably they only really understand what they want when you finally deploy the system and they start using it. Which of course is followed by all sorts of suggestions on how to make the software better.

Also, internal politics can wreak havoc as well. I worked on a very sophisticated application system that was used by colleges all over the US. Around the time we were releasing the software there was a change in IT management. The new guy was a Java bigot and felt Bill Gates was satan himself. Our system was written using C# and ASP.NET. So he hired a second bunch of consultants to re-write everything we did in Java. Granted, our system worked fine and the new system provided no new functionality but it was now "better" because it used Java. It was very disruptive to the user community but this guy didn't care. (I'm sure you wouldn't be surprised to learn it was for a non-profit).

And more times I can remember, I'm given virtually no guidelines, I'm just told "make it work!".

Just my two cents.
     
voodoo
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Aug 9, 2011, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
That's gotta be some sort of record for dishonest quoting.
No, not really, it's just a superficial explanation for the average joe, to explain that it "appears" better - not that it is actually better. Because it isn't. Nowhere in that article is that claim made and in fact, reading about it (as you should try sometime) shows that there isn't any added benefit of glossy screens - and then there is glossy screens vs. a goddam glass plate.

You seem to equate the two - probably because in the end it doesn't matter one squat to you, you're just towing the Apple line.


Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I think it's funny that this is your response to a post where I criticize that Final Cut Pro X doesn't support multi-cam, because that's a function I'd like to have.
What the heck do you want with a multi-cam support? Besides, the fact that you even want to use FCPX demonstrates the amateur hour target group FCPX was really made for. People who just needed an iMovie Pro(sumer), and as an added bonus you can pretend it is actually FCP.

I'm just gonna repeat a post I've already made (twice?):
Oh and here's another quote for you:

I won't continue this sidetrack.
Yeah, there's what you say, and then there's what you do - and you are a never-ending Apple-does-no-wrong über apologist, and yes you continued that sidetrack.

FWIW: I've also been called an "Apple hater" on this forum for my criticism of their mandatory registration when you install OS X.
Good show

(Note that I jumped on the i7 13" MacBook Pro when it came out — I couldn't be much happier save for the fact that it would suffice to have an external optical drive at home, rather than on the road.)
Oh that's cool, because the official Apple line is "death to optical" so you're completely ok in Steve's book for thinking that. He so agrees with you and you with him.

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Aug 9, 2011, 06:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by badidea View Post
(not because of nostalgia but because when the reflection makes it hard to see what's on the screen, I can still see something I like!)
Post of the day!!!
     
Railroader
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Aug 9, 2011, 06:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
....
Spheric, please stop feeding the troll. I'd hate to see you get a temp ban for lowering yourself to his level.
     
voodoo
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Aug 9, 2011, 07:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
Spheric, please stop feeding the troll. I'd hate to see you get a temp ban for lowering yourself to his level.
The thing is I'm not a troll, I've been a member and a regular poster on this forum for more than a decade. I just disagree with SH on some things, Apple related. Disagreeing isn't being a troll, I've seen you disagree many a time and be disagreeable - but I know you're not a troll, just as you know I am not.

SH is being very disagreeable Killbey, he's also, like me a long standing member. If I'm a troll, so is he, you know?
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Doofy
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Aug 9, 2011, 09:25 PM
 
Doof's spidey sense is sensing aged animosity going on.

Let's face it: You're all wrong. I'm right. End of story.
There ya go.
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Railroader
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Aug 9, 2011, 10:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
The thing is I'm not a troll, I've been a member and a regular poster on this forum for more than a decade. I just disagree with SH on some things, Apple related. Disagreeing isn't being a troll, I've seen you disagree many a time and be disagreeable - but I know you're not a troll, just as you know I am not.
You can be a regular poster and still troll as you are now. That is why you are littering your posts with insults. They are extremely uncreative.
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
SH is being very disagreeable Killbey, he's also, like me a long standing member. If I'm a troll, so is he, you know?
It is "Kilbey", only one "l".

Why haven't you, in the last 6 years, caught on that I no longer go by that username? Be honest please. Would it be because you are trolling? Trying to get me to bite the bait you are trolling? There's really no other reason to call me by a name I no longer associate with than to troll me in this post.

Spheric Harlot is not a troll. He's one of the few legit long-time members around here. We've had our differences but he's been cool to me and I've been cool to him. That's why I was encouraging him not to drop down to your level.

I'm sure you'll respond with some offhanded insults and what you would consider witty remarks. Go ahead, but be warned, we are bored of it.
     
Railroader
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Aug 9, 2011, 10:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy View Post
Doof's spidey sense is sensing aged animosity going on.

Let's face it: You're all wrong. I'm right. End of story.
There ya go.
Probably true, as usual.
     
freudling  (op)
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Aug 10, 2011, 01:49 AM
 
Look at this thread. It's bickering between all of you. It's absurd reading this. Why would any new people want to stick around here? We can't even talk about a "hot" topic without the dogma and BS.

Railroader: you just feed it. All of u go derail another thread.

Stay on topic.
     
finboy
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Aug 10, 2011, 01:50 AM
 
To answer the original question (topic of the thread)

Most software sucks because it is written by people who have no intention of using it themselves.
     
freudling  (op)
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Aug 10, 2011, 02:24 AM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
To answer the original question (topic of the thread)

Most software sucks because it is written by people who have no intention of using it themselves.
Now this is what I'm talking about. You've nailed it.
     
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Aug 10, 2011, 04:26 AM
 
Its a lot better than it was, remember Eudora for mail and weekly re-jiggin of extension with conflict catcher?

Now I can speak a sentence into my phone in English and it perfectly translates it to grammatically correct Mandarin and speaks it out loud.

I can take a photo of a family member and my computer just knows who it is.

I can search in my email program on 4 different criteria and it it searches through 8000 messages in under a second.

Software is good.
     
freudling  (op)
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Aug 10, 2011, 04:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by moonmonkey View Post
Its a lot better than it was, remember Eudora for mail and weekly re-jiggin of extension with conflict catcher?

Now I can speak a sentence into my phone in English and it perfectly translates it to grammatically correct Mandarin and speaks it out loud.

I can take a photo of a family member and my computer just knows who it is.

I can search in my email program on 4 different criteria and it it searches through 8000 messages in under a second.

Software is good.
Meanwhile, Spotlight in Lion for me doesn't find everything it should, and iMovie on the iPhone is slow and choppy as hell. Software is not good. A small amount is.
     
voodoo
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Aug 10, 2011, 08:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by Railroader View Post
You can be a regular poster and still troll as you are now. That is why you are littering your posts with insults. They are extremely uncreative.
So have you babe. So you're a troll then. Fine by me.

It is "Kilbey", only one "l".
Right, I'll get right around to forgetting that, mkay.

Spheric Harlot is not a troll. He's one of the few legit long-time members around here. We've had our differences but he's been cool to me and I've been cool to him. That's why I was encouraging him not to drop down to your level.
He already has dropped down to "my level", that's where he lives. He's as much a troll as I am.

I'm sure you'll respond with some offhanded insults and what you would consider witty remarks. Go ahead, but be warned, we are bored of it.
I never respond in insults, when I'm not insulted. You should have learned that in the last 6 years etc. blah blah.

How about you just show the respect you want to be shown and stop whining?
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voodoo
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Aug 10, 2011, 08:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Meanwhile, Spotlight in Lion for me doesn't find everything it should, and iMovie on the iPhone is slow and choppy as hell. Software is not good. A small amount is.
A question, on the iMovie on the iPhone; isn't the iPhone actually much to anemic to run iMovie except slow and choppy? The processing power of the iPhone is pretty much pathetic compared to a Macintosh, and it uses very specialized GPU processes to run the GUI and video - but it doesn't add any processing power.

Spotlight in any version, didn't always find everything it should. It did help to reindex and make Spotlight index everything on the computer (basically / )

But Apple may well have decided that some things should not be found by the user, so you may be facing a feature - not a bug.

Apple knows what is good for you. Or at least that's what they want you to think.
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Aug 10, 2011, 08:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
A question, on the iMovie on the iPhone; isn't the iPhone actually much to anemic to run iMovie except slow and choppy?
The iPhone 4 has about the same processing power as a G4 (measured in DMIPS) running at the same clock speed. The A5 that will be included in the iPhone 5 will have a performance that is comparable to a single-core G5.

In addition, the A4 and A5 sport dedicated silicon that is used to accelerate certain operations (or rather: so that common operations can be performed more power efficiently).
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
The processing power of the iPhone is pretty much pathetic compared to a Macintosh, and it uses very specialized GPU processes to run the GUI and video - but it doesn't add any processing power.
Yes, the GPU actually does add processing power, e. g. video effects and animations are done in hardware on iOS 5. The lack of GPU-accelerated compositing is apparently the reason why Android's interface isn't as smooth. GPU accelerated image processing, for instance, helps make applications to augmented reality possible on mobile devices. I have heard that in the first iPhone, custom silicon was used to process the sensor and touch input, for instance. In IE9, the browser Windows Phone 7.5, Safari 5.1 and other current browsers, the GPU is utilized to render web pages. (IE9 and the IE9-derivative used in WP 7.5 are at the forefront here.)
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Aug 10, 2011, 09:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Stay on topic.
I tried to contribute but the trolls have taken over as usual. Are you people really this petty in person? You sound like 12 years old girls!
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 10, 2011, 09:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
To answer the original question (topic of the thread)

Most software sucks because it is written by people who have no intention of using it themselves.
Agreed.

I think it's a combination:

Products are built for what company execs *think* the customer wants (bullet-point feature design), rather than what they'd actually love to use themselves.
This is what sets Apple apart from the entire rest of the industry, but it comes at the price of not building what you don't understand (see Apple and enterprise back-and-forth).

Once the recipe for failure has been set at that level, it's up to engineers/team leaders to **** it up further by failing to realize that they have no clue whatsoever about UI design, and how "normal" people actually approach technology/software.

There is little incentive to fix this, because broken software also results in a necessity for training sessions, which is a license to print money.
     
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Aug 10, 2011, 09:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Meanwhile, Spotlight in Lion for me doesn't find everything it should, and iMovie on the iPhone is slow and choppy as hell. Software is not good. A small amount is.
So you're using brand new technology that's at version 1 and you're trying to edit movies on a mobile phone... ...and from that you're stating that software isn't good?

What next? Shall we try to write an epic blockbuster hollywood script on a digital watch and then claim that watches aren't much good? Wipe our bums on a National Geographic then claim that NatGeo's photos aren't very absorbent?

If you want a good solid OS, use one which is fully cooked. If you want to edit movies, use a computer. It's not rocket science.
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Aug 10, 2011, 01:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
Someone also mentioned something about not talking to the users enough. Let me tell you, most users haven't a freakin' clue how they even do their own job. Trying to get them to explain it in a coherent way is next to impossible.
Agreed. The customer doesn't know what they want. The customer can tell you what they don't like, but that's about it.

"If I'd asked my customers what they wanted, they'd have said a faster horse." - Henry Ford
     
finboy
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Aug 11, 2011, 01:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Now this is what I'm talking about. You've nailed it.
It's related to what economist's call an "agency problem." The software is developed for users, but the folks who develop it have their own ideas and incentives, and it's impossible for the users to perfectly get across what they need.

That's why back in the old days we just coded our own when we needed something done; it was easier than explaining it to the tape apes in the basement (no offense intended). It's also why the VARs were such a hot business way back when - semi-customized solutions from vendors who knew the needs of the business or industry sector.

But you guys are also right about the customer not knowing what they want or need. That's a very common issue.

They might not even know the capabilities of the "new," and want to stick with the horse. You can bet they planned to keep the horse around even after buying the flivver, too. And some of the new and nifty capabilities that the seller takes for granted mean absolutely nothing to the user.
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 01:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by moonmonkey View Post
Its a lot better than it was
It sure is. But think about how much time and energy are expended for useless, pointless software.

What did we do with all of our free time before the Web? Wow.
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 01:48 AM
 
Every thread turns into a fight.

We are one dysfunctional family.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
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2.21 million jobs were LOST after 2 years of Bush Tax Cuts.
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 01:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
What did we do with all of our free time before the Web?
Furious masturbation.

Oh. Wait. Hmmm.
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Aug 11, 2011, 01:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Every thread turns into a fight.
Shut your mouth, hippie!
Joke
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Aug 11, 2011, 02:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Every thread turns into a fight.

We are one dysfunctional family.

Can I borrow the car?
     
moonmonkey
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Aug 11, 2011, 03:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The iPhone 4 has about the same processing power as a G4 (measured in DMIPS) running at the same clock speed. The A5 that will be included in the iPhone 5 will have a performance that is comparable to a single-core G5.

In addition, the A4 and A5 sport dedicated silicon that is used to accelerate certain operations (or rather: so that common operations can be performed more power efficiently).

Yes, the GPU actually does add processing power, e. g. video effects and animations are done in hardware on iOS 5. The lack of GPU-accelerated compositing is apparently the reason why Android's interface isn't as smooth. GPU accelerated image processing, for instance, helps make applications to augmented reality possible on mobile devices. I have heard that in the first iPhone, custom silicon was used to process the sensor and touch input, for instance. In IE9, the browser Windows Phone 7.5, Safari 5.1 and other current browsers, the GPU is utilized to render web pages. (IE9 and the IE9-derivative used in WP 7.5 are at the forefront here.)
Thanks, V interesting.
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 04:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
Most software sucks because it is written by people who have no intention of using it themselves.
Bingo.
It reminds me of the introduction of the new `everything' management system at my old university (with 25~27k students and several thousand employees). A bunch of computer science students who really cared about the project could have done better. It was immediately obvious that none of the programmers actually had any clue about real-world usage scenarios. The first version was `optimized for Internet Explorer 6.' Which is great if the computer infrastructure of the math department is based on Sun hard- and software It produced webpages that were several MB in size (a sizable part of which was JavaScript). Not only did that make the system very, very slow on the server end (imagine you're not the only accessing the system ), but even modern browsers had no chance to render the code in a reasonable time. Features have to be implemented `around the system' and nothing was workflow oriented. Etc. etc. etc.

The best software I've seen to date is by people who care and put love into their products. You can forgive quite a bit if a piece of software works exceptionally well in other areas and you have see a certain level of care (conscious or not). That's, I think, the secret of the Mac and a lot of Apple software.
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Aug 11, 2011, 06:11 AM
 
I concur with Oreo. The software Italked about earlier was written without real reference to the entire concept behind the professions that will use the software (rehabilitation therapists). So they did a little research and put in plenty of good-sounding buzz words. Here's a clue to that: those assistive devices I mentioned earlier. Fortunately, the support people aren't married to the existing (and incorrect) option data, and my support request to put correct options in for one area is in-work. So now it looks like the users are going to have to proof read the whole suite to find out where the programmers goofed...which is slightly better than having the thing etched in stone, but not by a huge amount.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 09:18 AM
 
All I know is Apple never asked anyone how the OS X Finder should be, it has always been 100% their design and their "vision" and it has always 100% sucked - so much that most users are just happy to use the Dock/Spotlight/Desktop/Launchpad... just anything except the Finder. (the Desktop is part of the Finder, but it's a special part)

Customers do know what they want. E.g. They didn't want FCPX.

So sometimes software sucks because it is solving a problem that was never a problem - and then it's a good idea to ask the user: Is there a problem?

A company like Apple is a good example in this because it is the prime example of a company that never asks the customer: what do you want?

It's history is littered with failures as well as successes, but I think it is despite the fact that Apple always had to reinvent the wheel, to pretend to be revolutionary with every minute piece of software or hardware, that Apple became successful - not because of it.

Bottom line is, that I think it is far too easy that "The customer doesn't know what they want. The customer can tell you what they don't like, but that's about it.", like hayesk suggests.

It's a good suggestion, and part of the problem, but it isn't the problem - just one facet. Another facet is the immense arrogance of some developers that they think they know better than the user what the user wants - and another facet is (as has also been mentioned) the developer that never intends to use the software himself and is basically just filling a bulletin list from management.. etc.

Some are just lazy or incapable. That happens too.

But there exists great software, and most of it is great because of a certain vision from the developer (for sure) but also because the developer listened to what the users wanted. We all know software like that.

There's not a lot of it, but it exists - and we Mac users used to enjoy a higher concentration of it. Now we have to muddle through the swamp of bad software, just like Windows users always have had to do. It's part of the price of success.
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Aug 11, 2011, 10:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by finboy View Post
To answer the original question (topic of the thread)

Most software sucks because it is written by people who have no intention of using it themselves.
I think it kind of depends on the size of the user base.

Really tiny little one-off applications you find on Free Macware, Sourceforge, etc. tend to be really nonsensical in design and UI, generally because the person or people who wrote the application created it for their own specific purpose and don't really care what other people want or need out of it.

On the other hand, look at something that's gotten a much bigger user base over time - Pidgin (Windows/Linux multiprotocol IM client), Firefox, and Ubuntu are great examples. As the user base got bigger, the developers decided to dumb down the interface to the point that a complete retard can use it, at the expense of the power users who made the software popular in the first place. This is worst with Pidgin, which took out a slew of features for the sake of simplicity. The result was that the developers aggressively alienated a large portion of their user base.

I haven't seen this quite as much with freeware for OS X. People who develop software for the Mac are, from what I've seen, pretty in tune with the Apple aesthetic, and tend to follow Apple's UI guidelines pretty closely. I will say that I've found a lot of OS X freeware much more enjoyable to use than some (not all) Windows and Linux apps I've found in the past.

As far as productivity applications go, though...I hate pretty much every Microsoft Office alternative I've ever used. iWork is okay, but I've been a hardcore Office user since the pre-95 days and found Office really meets my needs. That being said, Office for OS X is pretty bad. Entourage was a mess and never stopped sucking; I'm glad they rewrote their OS X communications application from the ground up. Office 2008 was the first remotely usable Office for Mac Microsoft ever released (i never liked all those weird floating toolbars and tool palettes in 2002/2004).

Originally Posted by hyteckit View Post
Because most good programmers are bad UI designers, and most good UI designers are bad programmers.

There are very few good programmers with an eye for good UI design.
I guess it's hard for a good UI designer and a good programmer to come together in agreement or a understand on how to integrate good design and functionality.
This is most painfully evident in web-based applications, where the web developer also designs the front end, and the result can be pretty disastrous.
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 10:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
All I know is Apple never asked anyone how the OS X Finder should be, it has always been 100% their design and their "vision" and it has always 100% sucked
I have always like the Finder, I love column view. I've tried more powerful alternatives like Pathfinder, but I never took a liking to them and keep coming back to the Finder.
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
- so much that most users are just happy to use the Dock/Spotlight/Desktop/Launchpad... just anything except the Finder. (the Desktop is part of the Finder, but it's a special part)
QuickSilver is an app launcher to me while the Finder is not, ditto for the Dock. The Finder is to sort and manage files, so I don't find it to be a contradiction if I use something else to launch apps.
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Customers do know what they want. E.g. They didn't want FCPX.
I think it's too early to say whether Final Cut Pro X is a failure or a success: it's a 1.0 release and I have the impression that the people who don't like it are a very vocal minority. I'd say let's check back in a year or two after Final Cut Pro X 1.5 or 2.0 has been released.

I don't understand enough of video editing, but seeing as how Apple's Aperture has redefined how most professional photographers and ambitious amateurs manage and edit their photos (Aperture was the first app of this kind out the door, Adobe Lightroom works similarly and was released after Aperture), I don't see why they won't be successful with Final Cut Pro X in the long-run.
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Bottom line is, that I think it is far too easy that "The customer doesn't know what they want. The customer can tell you what they don't like, but that's about it.", like hayesk suggests.
I think this analogy works only for radical departures from everything that existed before. For incremental improvements, I agree, user feedback is very important.
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Aug 11, 2011, 10:48 AM
 
Working off user feedback is vital for building a faster horse; it is disastrous if what really needs to be done is inventing the car.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Aug 11, 2011, 10:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by shifuimam View Post
Office 2008 was the first remotely usable Office for Mac Microsoft ever released (i never liked all those weird floating toolbars and tool palettes in 2002/2004).
Unless you count Word 5 (not "Office" proper, I realize).
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 10:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I have always like the Finder, I love column view. I've tried more powerful alternatives like Pathfinder, but I never took a liking to them and keep coming back to the Finder.
So you actually use the Finder more than the Dock/Spotlight/Launchpad? And you like the changes that are made (seemingly at random) with every iteration of OS X?

To each his own, I guess, but I find it useful. It's annoying to work with, and it's much better to just give into the Apple mantra that the file system is dead, because that's the way they design more and more of their apps and the Finder too (e.g. "all my files" in Lion)

I think it's too early to say whether Final Cut Pro X is a failure or a success: it's a 1.0 release and I have the impression that the people who don't like it are a very vocal minority. I'd say let's check back in a year or two after Final Cut Pro X 1.5 or 2.0 has been released.
It's a failure as a professional app, but I'm sure it will do ok in prosumer space. It depends entirely how you define success. FCP in professional space is gone, since FCPX can't replace it.

I don't understand enough of video editing, but seeing as how Apple's Aperture has redefined how most professional photographers and ambitious amateurs manage and edit their photos (Aperture was the first app of this kind out the door, Adobe Lightroom works similarly and was released after Aperture), I don't see why they won't be successful with Final Cut Pro X in the long-run.
Everybody uses Lightroom, except a vocal minority. Or not even that vocal.

I think this analogy works only for radical departures from everything that existed before. For incremental improvements, I agree, user feedback is very important.
That was my point.
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Aug 11, 2011, 10:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Working off user feedback is vital for building a faster horse; it is disastrous if what really needs to be done is inventing the car.


No, not really. Besides, that quote is so banal - it's not like Ford invented the car. It was a centuries long development and people started using it when it became useful, not when "it was the future".

I could take Sean Connery in a fight... I could definitely take him.
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 11:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Atheist View Post
I tried to contribute but the trolls have taken over as usual. Are you people really this petty in person? You sound like 12 years old girls!
Actually, the forums with lots of 12 year old girls are generally much more civil and on topic.
     
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Aug 11, 2011, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
So you actually use the Finder more than the Dock/Spotlight/Launchpad?
I use the Finder to organize files. I use QuickSilver and the Dock to launch apps. And I use the Terminal for git and some other stuff (e. g. log in as root and tinker with MacTeX or MacPorts).
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
And you like the changes that are made (seemingly at random) with every iteration of OS X?
Not all of them, of course. I like the relative simplicity and when it comes to my files, I'm a bit of a neat freak anyway.
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
To each his own, I guess, but I find it useful. It's annoying to work with, and it's much better to just give into the Apple mantra that the file system is dead, because that's the way they design more and more of their apps and the Finder too (e.g. "all my files" in Lion)
I got lost here: what are you trying to say?
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
It's a failure as a professional app, but I'm sure it will do ok in prosumer space. It depends entirely how you define success. FCP in professional space is gone, since FCPX can't replace it.
I don't see how you can pass this kind of judgement at this point, it's way too early. Lightroom 1, for instance, didn't even have multi monitor support (!), a feature that is essential for pros. Yet, Adobe Lightroom became a success for Adobe after several iterations (multi monitor support came with version 2). It took years until Final Cut Pro (non-X) got to where it is now, arguably the most-used non-linear video editing tool in the pro market.
Originally Posted by voodoo View Post
Everybody uses Lightroom, except a vocal minority. Or not even that vocal.
You have misread my comment: Aperture created a category of apps (it was released in 2005, Lightroom was released in 2007), even though it is probably not the market leader in this category anymore (I don't have any data, but I agree that it seems the majority of people use Lightroom). But it was Apple's innovation that started this category.
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Aug 11, 2011, 12:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by hart View Post
Actually, the forums with lots of 12 year old girls are generally much more civil and on topic.
"Isn't Justin lovely?"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"

"I want to marry Justin. Do you want to marry Justin?"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
"Yes"
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Laminar
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Aug 11, 2011, 12:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
FWIW: I've also been called an "Apple hater" on this forum for my criticism of their mandatory registration when you install OS X.
Command-Q?
     
 
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