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Conceal Carry, the 2nd Amendment, & Vigilantism (Page 35)
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OAW  (op)
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Aug 12, 2014, 03:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
Yeah, watching idiots throw a temper tantrum about something that doesn't concern them is always high drama.
There are times I think you are prone to make unnecessarily provocative statements just to gin things up. And other times I think you really do believe your own BS. But this right here is an entirely new level of idiocy. An unarmed 18 year old kid was EXECUTED in broad daylight by a cop with an attitude. Shot once at the side of the car. Shot again in the back as he fled. Then when he turned around with his hands in the air and said "I don't have a gun please stop shooting!" the cop approached him and shot him in the face and chest several more times. His friend who was with him saw the entire thing go down. Several witness in the apartment complex CORROBORATE THE STORY. The reason why the reaction of the people was so immediate was because it was so blatantly egregious. And why did the officer approach them? Because they were WALKING in the middle of the street. NOT on a major throughway but on a side street in the apartment complex. The officers first words to the young men? "Get the f*ck on the sidewalk!". Within a minute a kid who never laid a hand on the officer and was about to start college YESTERDAY was MURDERED in cold blood.

What does it have to do with me? That could have just as easily been my about to be 17 year old son shot dead in the street like a dog by someone who clearly doesn't have the temperament to be a police officer. Just for Walking While Black. I'm inclined to end with a few choice words but I'll refrain. Instead I'll just say that if that's your attitude about the situation then you are one soulless individual.

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Aug 12, 2014 at 05:43 PM. )
     
The Final Dakar
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Aug 12, 2014, 04:33 PM
 
Speaking of drama, I'm hearing the FAA issued a no-fly zone over Ferguson? What the hell is going on over there?

Edit: You've wasted your breath, OAW
     
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Aug 12, 2014, 05:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Speaking of drama, I'm hearing the FAA issued a no-fly zone over Ferguson? What the hell is going on over there?
That entire part of the area is on lock down. Police were threatening the press with arrest if they didn't leave the area. Shining their flashlights at their cameras to keep them from recording what was taking place. TV stations were flying copters overhead capturing footing that looked like a war zone. So I imagine the FAA restriction is to keep the media completely out. Cops were too busy shooting tear gas and rubber bullets at DEMONSTRATORS instead of the LOOTERS and therefore the latter were able to ransack businesses and get out before the cops bothered to go put a stop to it. The hacker group Anonymous shut down the City of Ferguson's web site and email systems. Threatened to release the St. Louis County Police Chief's personal info if he did not release the name of the cop that killed Mike Brown. That was supposed to happen today but he changed his mind out of concern for the "safety of the officer and his family". Well let's just say Anonymous was true to their word. They even hacked into the webcam of his home computer. And wouldn't you know he has a Confederate Flag on his wall? Keep in mind this area is a small municipality approximately 80% African-American. Yet the police force is about 94% white comprised of people who don't even live in the area. We are talking about 57 officers with only 3 of them black. So tensions between the police and the community have been high for years because the police behave more like an occupying force than peace officers sworn to protect and serve the public. Fortunately, no one else was killed. We'll see what happens tonight. But I fear there will be more unrest because the people have said it will continue until the cop's name is released and he is arrested for murder.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar
Edit: You've wasted your breath, OAW
Indeed. I wonder why I even bother sometimes.

OAW

PS: This will soon get way OT. If you wish to discuss it more feel free to create a thread. I'll chime in with relevant info as I can. It's a very fluid and heartbreaking situation around here.
( Last edited by OAW; Aug 12, 2014 at 05:51 PM. )
     
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Aug 12, 2014, 05:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
There are times I think you are prone to make unnecessarily provocative statements just to gin things up. And other times I think you really do believe your own BS. But this right here is an entirely new level of idiocy. An unarmed 18 year old kid was EXECUTED in broad daylight by a cop with an attitude. Shot once at the side of the car. Shot again in the back as he fled. Then when he turned around with his hands in the air and said "I don't have a gun please stop shooting!" the cop approached him and shot him in the face and chest several more times. His friend who was with him saw the entire thing go down. Several witness in the apartment complex CORROBORATE THE STORY. The reason why the reaction of the people was so immediate was because it was so blatantly egregious. And why did the officer approach them? Because they were WALKING in the middle of the street. NOT on a major throughway but on a side street in the apartment complex. The officers first words to the young men? "Get the f*ck on the sidewalk!". Within a minute a kid who never laid a hand on the officer and was about to start college YESTERDAY was MURDERED in cold blood.

What does it have to do with me? That could have just as easily been my about to be 17 year old son shot dead in the street like a dog by someone who clearly doesn't have the temperament to be a police officer. Just for Walking While Black. I'm inclined to end with a few choice words but I'll refrain. Instead I'll just say that if that's your attitude about the situation then you are one soulless individual.

OAW
Just so we're clear, I am with you on this one, OAW.
     
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Aug 12, 2014, 06:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Snow-i View Post
Just so we're clear, I am with you on this one, OAW.
Appreciate that.

OAW
     
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Aug 13, 2014, 03:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
There are times I think you are prone to make unnecessarily provocative statements just to gin things up. And other times I think you really do believe your own BS. But this right here is an entirely new level of idiocy. An unarmed 18 year old kid was EXECUTED in broad daylight by a cop with an attitude. Shot once at the side of the car. Shot again in the back as he fled. Then when he turned around with his hands in the air and said "I don't have a gun please stop shooting!" the cop approached him and shot him in the face and chest several more times. His friend who was with him saw the entire thing go down. Several witness in the apartment complex CORROBORATE THE STORY. The reason why the reaction of the people was so immediate was because it was so blatantly egregious. And why did the officer approach them? Because they were WALKING in the middle of the street. NOT on a major throughway but on a side street in the apartment complex. The officers first words to the young men? "Get the f*ck on the sidewalk!". Within a minute a kid who never laid a hand on the officer and was about to start college YESTERDAY was MURDERED in cold blood.

What does it have to do with me? That could have just as easily been my about to be 17 year old son shot dead in the street like a dog by someone who clearly doesn't have the temperament to be a police officer. Just for Walking While Black. I'm inclined to end with a few choice words but I'll refrain. Instead I'll just say that if that's your attitude about the situation then you are one soulless individual.

OAW
a cheap shot, how surprising. Never let a good disaster go to waste, right? The media and bloggers run on that belief too, and if you weren't such a nasty, venomous person, you'd know that's what he was alluding to. But please, go on and tell us about how much soul you have.
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Aug 13, 2014, 08:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
That entire part of the area is on lock down. Police were threatening the press with arrest if they didn't leave the area. Shining their flashlights at their cameras to keep them from recording what was taking place. TV stations were flying copters overhead capturing footing that looked like a war zone. So I imagine the FAA restriction is to keep the media completely out. Cops were too busy shooting tear gas and rubber bullets at DEMONSTRATORS instead of the LOOTERS and therefore the latter were able to ransack businesses and get out before the cops bothered to go put a stop to it. The hacker group Anonymous shut down the City of Ferguson's web site and email systems. Threatened to release the St. Louis County Police Chief's personal info if he did not release the name of the cop that killed Mike Brown. That was supposed to happen today but he changed his mind out of concern for the "safety of the officer and his family". Well let's just say Anonymous was true to their word. They even hacked into the webcam of his home computer. And wouldn't you know he has a Confederate Flag on his wall? Keep in mind this area is a small municipality approximately 80% African-American. Yet the police force is about 94% white comprised of people who don't even live in the area. We are talking about 57 officers with only 3 of them black. So tensions between the police and the community have been high for years because the police behave more like an occupying force than peace officers sworn to protect and serve the public. Fortunately, no one else was killed. We'll see what happens tonight. But I fear there will be more unrest because the people have said it will continue until the cop's name is released and he is arrested for murder.



Indeed. I wonder why I even bother sometimes.

OAW

PS: This will soon get way OT. If you wish to discuss it more feel free to create a thread. I'll chime in with relevant info as I can. It's a very fluid and heartbreaking situation around here.
Oh no! A flag signifying a confederacy that's been defunct for 150 years. What about those who fly flags in support of actual state-sponsored racism/terrorism?
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
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The Final Dakar
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Aug 13, 2014, 08:44 AM
 
Christ Shaddim, who pissed in your wheaties.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Oh no! A flag signifying a confederacy that's been defunct for 150 years.
…and who's symbol and meaning isn't defunct at all. You're being intentionally obtuse.

So your point is, what? America's racism is a 1st world problem compared to Israel's?
     
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Aug 13, 2014, 08:52 AM
 
Michael Brown Death: No-Fly Zone Enacted Over Missouri Town - NBC News

"On Sunday night our police helicopter came under fire on 3 or 4 occasions, so we requested that the FAA put up a no-fly zone for the safety of pilots who would be in the area," St. Louis County Police Department Officer Brian Schellman told NBC News. The ban on flights is scheduled to last until Monday, Aug. 18.

No aircraft have been hit, but police chopper pilots did see shots fired from various locations during looting and riots that took place on Sunday night from about 10 p.m. to midnight, Schellman said. "We don’t know if it was a long gun or a handgun or what," he said.

He said police had clearance to fly if they had to, and medical evacuation helicopters could also be launched if necessary. He denied that the move was to keep news helicopters from covering the scene.

"We understand that that’s the perception that’s out there, but it truly is for the safety of pilots. It’s scary stuff to them, so that’s the reason the commanders made the call," said Schellman. "I understand that it’s nice for media helicopters to get up there, but we have not restricted any media access on the ground."
I don't understand how a no-fly zone that doesn't apply to cops prevents police helicopters from being shot at from people on the ground.
     
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Aug 13, 2014, 09:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
So your point is, what? America's racism is a 1st world problem compared to Israel's?
… and completely irrelevant in the present context. Seems like unnecessary splash-over from the most recent Israel/Gaza thread to me.
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Shaddim
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Aug 13, 2014, 09:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Christ Shaddim, who pissed in your wheaties.

…and who's symbol and meaning isn't defunct at all. You're being intentionally obtuse.


So your point is, what? America's racism is a 1st world problem compared to Israel's?
Someone did metaphorically "piss in my Wheaties" today, I may post about it later, after I calm down a little more.

My point was, pointing out a flag hanging inside person's house (which may or may not mean anything), while ignoring those being proudly flown by racists elsewhere, is hypocritical.
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The Final Dakar
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Aug 13, 2014, 10:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Someone did metaphorically "piss in my Wheaties" today, I may post about it later, after I calm down a little more.
You don't have to explain, but its coming through in your posts. i.e.., you need to take a step back.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
My point was, pointing out a flag hanging inside person's house (which may or may not mean anything)
The only context I could see a confederate flag meaning 'nothing' is one in which the person doesn't know what it stood for. Otherwise, it definitely means something.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
while ignoring those being proudly flown by racists elsewhere, is hypocritical.
I've been staying out of the Gaza thread for just this reason.
     
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Aug 13, 2014, 04:35 PM
 
Maybe he's a Dukes of Hazzard fan, or he simply thinks it somehow makes him appear rebellious? The latter is common around my neck of the woods, even among those who have minimal racist tendencies, because of swiftly growing anti-federalist sentiments.
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Aug 13, 2014, 07:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Michael Brown Death: No-Fly Zone Enacted Over Missouri Town - NBC News


I don't understand how a no-fly zone that doesn't apply to cops prevents police helicopters from being shot at from people on the ground.
Exactly! The point was to prevent the helicopters from the local news stations from getting more aerial shots of the police shooting rubber bullets and tear gas at peaceful protestors. Some of whom were standing behind a fence on their own property.

Ferguson Police Fire Tear Gas Protesters with "Hands Up" in Their Own Backyard | YouTube.com

Now bear in mind the looting occurred on Sunday only. 32 people arrested. Most of whom weren't even from Ferguson and many of those were people the STL County PD listed as known criminals. But the demonstrators have been out that night and ever since. So why did the police start doing all this to people assembling and marching with their hands in the air only AFTER the looting stopped? When that moocher aka Clive Bundy and his crew pulled weapons out on federal agents some around here applauded them. Standing up to the oppressive government and all that jazz. So all of this happening to unarmed, peaceful protestors ought to really outrage you. Right?





As for the supposed shots being taken at police. They've claimed that on a few occasions since the beginning. Though it's notable that no shell casings have ever been recovered. No arrests made. They never even attempted to swarm the area where the shots supposedly came from to even try. Nothing and no one has ever been hit. Even though that would have been ridiculously easy to do since the cops were amassed together side by side across the entire street. And just how are the cops distinguishing the sound of these shots supposedly coming from the crowds of demonstrators from their own shots of rubber bullets and tear gas? So color me skeptical. Because it seems to me that the purpose of such claims is only to mischaracterize what's really happening on the ground to provide cover for police heavy-handedness.

OAW
     
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Aug 13, 2014, 07:13 PM
 
I'll be charitable and simply say that regarding that comment above that is obviously "grasping at straws" at best ... suffice it to say that "rebelliousness" is not a very favorable quality in a County Police Chief.

OAW
     
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Aug 13, 2014, 08:14 PM
 
Because a police chief has to be a federal loyalist? Why?
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Aug 13, 2014, 09:59 PM
 
Somehow I think if the good Police Chief had a swastika on his wall you wouldn't be hemming and hawing about WTF it means. Things are going down around these parts again tonight. And the last thing I have the time or inclination to do is debate the f*cking obvious with you.

OAW
     
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Aug 14, 2014, 06:05 AM
 
A swastika is the same as a rebel battle flag? No, and that's part of the problem.


(Everyone stay inside, don't go out under any circumstances, keep a weapon handy. Don't even bother with the cops if there's trouble. Follow the 12 > 6 rule, "it's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".)
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The Final Dakar
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Aug 14, 2014, 09:10 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Maybe he's a Dukes of Hazzard fan, or he simply thinks it somehow makes him appear rebellious? The latter is common around my neck of the woods, even among those who have minimal racist tendencies, because of swiftly growing anti-federalist sentiments.
With all due respect, this is speculative bullshit.

I guess Washington & Lee College are big Dukes fans, too.
     
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Aug 14, 2014, 06:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
A swastika is the same as a rebel battle flag? No, and that's part of the problem.
To the overwhelming majority of African-Americans it very well is. So you are right. The fact that you don't see that is most definitely part of the problem. Whether that's due to willful blindness or a profound lack of commonsense on your part is neither here nor there. But it's cool. So why don't we just leave it at that and not derail this thread any further.

OAW
     
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Aug 14, 2014, 07:40 PM
 
nasty, venomous person
This doesn't help Rules 1-3 and 9. This topic is fairly intense and it'll be better without the personal barbs.
     
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Aug 14, 2014, 07:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
To the overwhelming majority of African-Americans it very well is. So you are right. The fact that you don't see that is most definitely part of the problem. Whether that's due to willful blindness or a profound lack of commonsense on your part is neither here nor there. But it's cool. So why don't we just leave it at that and not derail this thread any further.

OAW
or, hey, it could be you being a dramatic. Maybe that's it? Before it became a thing to hate the battle flag (it wasn't even the flag of the Confederate Union, as most ignorantly believe) I saw blacks with it plastered on cars, shirts, and walls, because before the focused PR campaign against it, claiming it's a sign of oppression, it meant something else. Considering what the federal gov't has now become, oppressive and invasive, where its agents strip citizens of their rights without due process and murder them on their own property, some active Rebellion is long overdue.
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Aug 14, 2014, 08:04 PM
 
^^^

You aren't the first white dude who presumes to think he knows what black people should or should not find offensive. And you won't be the last. Carry on.

OAW
     
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Aug 14, 2014, 08:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
^^^

You aren't the first white dude who presumes to think he knows what black people should or should not find offensive. And you won't be the last. Carry on.

OAW
and you aren't the only black person who sees oppression everywhere and believes that slavery still exists.
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Aug 19, 2014, 04:55 PM
 


Ok Shaddim. Clearly I'm just being "dramatic".

OAW
     
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Aug 19, 2014, 06:16 PM
 
Yes, a (quickly dwindling) number of nutters have used it, so obviously anyone who hangs one up is a racist. Indeed, you're being a drama queen. Hey? Did you know that the vesica pisces (the Jesus fish) is actually a symbol for Venus (it's a vulva)? Lots of groups appropriate different flags and symbols to suit their purposes, regardless of what they originally stood for. Most Buddhists aren't amused about what was done with their swastika, either.
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Aug 19, 2014, 06:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post


Ok Shaddim. Clearly I'm just being "dramatic".

OAW
You kinda are
     
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Aug 19, 2014, 06:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Most Buddhists aren't amused about what was done with their swastika, either.
And yet I highly doubt you will try to lecture a Jewish person about how they shouldn't be offended by a swastika given its Buddhist/Hindu origins. And if it still doesn't occur to you why African-Americans feel the same way about the Confederate Flag then might I suggest you grab a copy of Webster's and acquaint yourself with the term "double-standard".

OAW

PS: And we should also note that the Confederate Flag was also originally used by those whose fundamental purpose for seceding from the Union was to ensure the perpetuation of slavery. Or as it's more euphemistically stated ... "To preserve the Southern way of life." I know that revisionist history claiming otherwise is all the rage in right-wing circles these days. So indulge to your heart's content. And if you are still so convinced that it's not offensive then go waving one in a large crowd of African-Americans and try to "educate" them on its esteemed history. And we'll see how that works out for you.
( Last edited by OAW; Aug 19, 2014 at 06:57 PM. )
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
And yet I highly doubt you will try to lecture a Jewish person about how they shouldn't be offended by a swastika given its Buddhist/Hindu origins. And if it still doesn't occur to you why African-Americans feel the same way about the Confederate Flag then might I suggest you grab a copy of Webster's and acquaint yourself with the term "double-standard".

OAW

PS: And we should also note that the Confederate Flag was also originally used by those whose fundamental purpose for seceding from the Union was to ensure the perpetuation of slavery. Or as it's more euphemistically stated ... "To preserve the Southern way of life." I know that revisionist history claiming otherwise is all the rage in right-wing circles these days. So indulge to your heart's content. And if you are still so convinced that it's not offensive then go waving one in a large crowd of African-Americans and try to "educate" them on its esteemed history. And we'll see how that works out for you.
I have actually lectured them on the origin of the swastika, stop thinking that any one race's history is somehow unique. My maternal grandmother's people were enslaved by the Goths (not the ones who wear too much eyeliner, today) for over 300 years (that's a good deal more time than slavery was alive in the USA). Should I take up arms against the heavy-mascara-wearing crowd, because they remind me of that painful part of my people's past? "That's not the same!" Yes, yes it is, it's all about perspective. The Confederate Battle Flag was NOT the official flag of the Confederate Union, (and neither was the Gadsden standard, though it was "borrowed" by the South during the Civil War) it's ignorance that's kept that view alive.
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Aug 20, 2014, 09:51 AM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The Confederate Battle Flag was NOT the official flag of the Confederate Union, (and neither was the Gadsden standard, though it was "borrowed" by the South during the Civil War) it's ignorance that's kept that view alive.
It's the official flag for the soldiers who fought for the Confederation. How is that any better?

If anything it makes the people who fly it bigger posers, as most are likely not soldiers.
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 12:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
The Confederate Battle Flag was NOT the official flag of the Confederate Union, (and neither was the Gadsden standard, though it was "borrowed" by the South during the Civil War) it's ignorance that's kept that view alive.
Yeah ... umm ... ok. Now the third one was never flown. But the second one was the official flag of the Confederate States of America for half the time the Confederacy existed. And it's been a "well-known and popular" symbol of the Confederacy ever since.



Second national flag (The Stainless Banner)[edit]

During the solicitation for the second national flag, there were many different types of designs that were proposed, nearly all making use of the battle flag, which by 1863 had become well-known and popular. The new design was specified by the Confederate Congress to be a white field "with the union (now used as the battle flag) to be a square of two-thirds the width of the flag, having the ground red; thereupon a broad saltire of blue, bordered with white, and emblazoned with mullets or five-pointed stars, corresponding in number to that of the Confederate States."[10]

The flag is also known as "the Stainless Banner". The nickname "stainless" referred to the pure white field. The flag act of 1864 did not state what the white symbolized and advocates offered various interpretations. The Confederate Congress debated whether the white field should have a blue stripe and whether it should be bordered in red. William Miles delivered a speech for the simple white design that was eventually approved. He argued that the battle flag must be used, but for a national flag it was necessary to emblazon it, but as simply as possible, with a plain white field.[11]

The flags actually made by the Richmond Clothing Depot used the 1.5:1 ratio adopted for the Confederate Navy's battle ensign, rather than the official 2:1 ratio.[12]

Initial reaction to the second national flag was favorable, but over time it became criticized for being "too white". The Columbia Daily South Carolinian observed that it was essentially a battle flag upon a flag of truce and might send a mixed message. Military officers voiced complaints about the flag being too white, for various reasons, including the danger of being mistaken for a flag of truce, especially on naval ships, and that it was too easily soiled.[13]

However, despite complaints, the second national flag was applauded by some for its design invoking Confederate ideology. George William Bagby praised the flag, referring to the saltire in the flag's canton as the "Southern Cross", as did others at the time, and stating that it embodied "the destiny of the Southern master and his African slave", pointing them southward to "the banks of the Amazon", expressing the desire many Confederates held of expanding slavery southward into Latin America.[8] In addition, the editor of the Savannah Morning News also lauded the flag, calling it "the White Man’s Flag" as well as stating:

As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause.

—Savannah Morning News
, [14][8]
Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention Dakar's point above! But yeah ... I'm just pulling all of this out of my ass.

OAW
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 12:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's the official flag for the soldiers who fought for the Confederation. How is that any better?

If anything it makes the people who fly it bigger posers, as most are likely not soldiers.
It was used by the general of the Virginia state militia as a battle standard, because all of his various troops were using different flags and it was confusing. Flags were important so leaders could see troop movements on a battlefield. There was no "official flag", and in fact, if it weren't for late-20th century pop culture (Beverly Hillbillies, Petticoat Junction, Dukes of Hazzard, etc), the Southern Cross would have probably faded into obscurity for most people.
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Originally Posted by OAW View Post
Yeah ... umm ... ok. Now the third one was never flown. But the second one was the official flag of the Confederate States of America for half the time the Confederacy existed. And it's been a "well-known and popular" symbol of the Confederacy ever since.

...

Flags of the Confederate States of America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Not to mention Dakar's point above! But yeah ... I'm just pulling all of this out of my ass.

OAW
Yeah, often you do omit or distort things to suit you. Anyhow, part of the problem with the formation of the Confederacy was that they couldn't agree on very many things, there really wasn't much of a unifying center, and one of those things was a national standard for uniforms, flags, etc. Some people believe grey was the color of the Confederacy "uniform", when in reality that's the color of regular undyed homespun and most soldiers on that side simply fought in whatever they brought with them from home (cloth dye was expensive).

Let's face reality for a second. 99% of people in the South didn't own slaves (they were uber expensive), the wealthy plantation owners did. However, it wasn't the plantation owners who were doing the fighting, it was the people who didn't own slaves. For most people in the South, the common folk, the War wasn't about keeping slaves, it was about Federal encroachment on state/local due process and what they felt was unequal congressional representation. That's a fact. However it was distorted during and or since, doesn't really matter. Frankly, most people didn't care what was going on with the wealthy landowners, what they did care about was rising taxes, increased tariffs, and being told what to do by people who might as well have lived on the other said of the moon. So, no, the rallying call of the Confederate soldier wasn't "we want to keep our slaves" it was "damned yankee go home", despite the popular myths.

Though it was righteous to abolish slavery, Lincoln mishandled just about everything he made contact with. He thought of himself as a ruler, not a leader, which sounds very familiar to what's going on today with Obama. The normal Southern citizen saw the North as invaders, and after the shells had already started flying, a flag went up that the common soldier would unify around and the Southern Cross was it. To them, it soon became a symbol of resistance against an invader and rebellion in the face of tyranny. In some parts of the South, that's the way it's still viewed today.
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:01 PM
 
The stars and bars are on the Mississippi state flag.

That makes the "swastika" analogy somewhat suspect to me.
     
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Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
It was used by the general of the Virginia state militia as a battle standard, because all of his various troops were using different flags and it was confusing.
Oh I see, it isn't a symbol of the confederation because it was an Human Resources move to cut down on confusion.

Anyway, who was in command that ragtag inconsequential bunch of Virginia soldiers? Oh yeah, General Robert E. Lee, the General-in-Chief of the confederate armies.


Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Flags were important so leaders could see troop movements on a battlefield.
So you argument is flags can't be symbols because they have utility? Is the possibility of one begetting the other not possible to you?

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
There was no "official flag", and in fact, if it weren't for late-20th century pop culture (Beverly Hillbillies, Petticoat Junction, Dukes of Hazzard, etc), the Southern Cross would have probably faded into obscurity for most people.
You're right, it's resurgence is likely due to popular culture.

In 1956 the Georgian state flag was redesigned to incorporate the Confederate battle flag.
Ok, still, that's probably coinc–

On April 12, 2000, the South Carolina State Senate passed a bill to remove the Confederate flag from the top of the State House dome by a majority vote of 36 to 7. Originally placed there in 1961
Ok, but two isn't a pattern–

It was also raised at the University of Mississippi (Ole Miss) during protests against integration of schools.
I give up.
     
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Originally Posted by subego View Post
The stars and bars are in the Mississippi state flag.

That makes the "swastika" analogy somewhat suspect to me.
As I said before, it has different meanings for different people. Its original meaning and use had nothing to do with slaves.
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Oh I see, it isn't a symbol of the confederation because it was an Human Resources move to cut down on confusion.

Anyway, who was in command that ragtag inconsequential bunch of Virginia soldiers? Oh yeah, General Robert E. Lee, the General-in-Chief of the confederate armies.


So you argument is flags can't be symbols because they have utility? Is the possibility of one begetting the other not possible to you?


You're right, it's resurgence is likely due to popular culture.



Ok, still, that's probably coinc–



Ok, but two isn't a pattern–



I give up.
At that time, and even since, the Feds were (and still are) seen as tyrants. It's a strong symbol of rebellion, and most people who have adopted it aren't thinking about race. Did you see what I posted about the vast majority in the South not even owning slaves? They were fighting for something else.
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Let's face reality for a second. 99% of people in the South didn't own slaves (they were uber expensive), the wealthy plantation owners did. However, it wasn't the plantation owners who were doing the fighting, it was the people who didn't own slaves. For most people in the South, the common folk, the War wasn't about keeping slaves, it was about Federal encroachment on state/local due process and what they felt was unequal congressional representation. That's a fact. However it was distorted during and or since, doesn't really matter. Frankly, most people didn't care what was going on with the wealthy landowners, what they did care about was rising taxes, increased tariffs, and being told what to do by people who might as well have lived on the other said of the moon. So, no, the rallying call of the Confederate soldier wasn't "we want to keep our slaves" it was "damned yankee go home", despite the popular myths.
Yeah, and what subject made them secede? Oh yeah, Slavery.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
Though it was righteous to abolish slavery, Lincoln mishandled just about everything he made contact with. He thought of himself as a ruler, not a leader, which sounds very familiar to what's going on today with Obama.
That's an interesting take. He saw himself as someone who, to preserve the union had to keep it together. If southern policy stood, the united states of america would cease to exist in short order as every state would secede every time they couldn't get votes in their favor. That's an untenable democratic situation.

Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
To them, it soon became a symbol of resistance against an invader and rebellion in the face of tyranny. In some parts of the South, that's the way it's still viewed today.
..and the second instance of its resurgence was during the federal tyranny of enacting civil rights. I guess it's the South's bad luck that both times they rallied against Federal tyranny, the main impetus had to due with how black people were treated.
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
At that time, and even since, the Feds were (and still are) seen as tyrants. It's a strong symbol of rebellion,
Sure, but it's a symbol of a very specific rebellion. Let's take your argument at face value for a moment. Modern southerners trying to repurpose the flag for a more broad rebellion. Public perception as to the meaning of that symbol hasn't changed. Do they decide to change tacts? No. And why is that? At the moment I'm beginning to think because they're more stubborn than rebellious.

They know what the confederate flag means and they don't care about perception, much like they knew slavery was wrong but they didn't want to give that up either.
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Shaddim View Post
At that time, and even since, the Feds were (and still are) seen as tyrants. It's a strong symbol of rebellion, and most people who have adopted it aren't thinking about race. Did you see what I posted about the vast majority in the South not even owning slaves? They were fighting for something else.
It is true that the vast majority of southerners didn't own slaves. But the vast majority of southerners derived their income from a slave-based economy. It's no different than from today where in coal country most people don't own the coal mines. But since there income is derived from a coal-based economy they tend to resist outside regulations which threaten that.

Oh and as for the "unequal congressional representation" claim. Need I remind you of the Three-Fifths Compromise where slave-holding states got to count every 3 out of 5 slaves in their total population count which determined such representation? Seeing as how the slaves had no voice whatsoever in the affairs of government, white Southerners were actually over-represented in Congress. So you are absolutely right. Many white Southerners felt particularly aggrieved because they couldn't include ALL of the slaves in their state's population count. Imagine that.

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Aug 20, 2014, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The stars and bars are on the Mississippi state flag.
Are you unfamiliar with the concept of inertia? It's how we have a football team named "Redskins".
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
..and the second instance of its resurgence was during the federal tyranny of enacting civil rights. I guess it's the South's bad luck that both times they rallied against Federal tyranny, the main impetus had to due with how black people were treated.
I'm just going to quote this and let it marinate for a little bit.

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Aug 20, 2014, 01:37 PM
 
Again ignorance causes needless offense. Reminds me of the black councilwoman who went ballistic when someone used the word "niggardly".


noun
1. an excessively parsimonious, miserly, or stingy person.

adjective
2. niggardly; miserly; stingy.
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Yeah, and what subject made them secede? Oh yeah, Slavery.
Not as seen by most in the South, as I stated above.

That's an interesting take. He saw himself as someone who, to preserve the union had to keep it together. If southern policy stood, the united states of america would cease to exist in short order as every state would secede every time they couldn't get votes in their favor. That's an untenable democratic situation.
Conjecture. The Southern secession wasn't an individual state, it was a large number of them. If 1/3 of US states voted to leave the US now, it would be handled much differently.

..and the second instance of its resurgence was during the federal tyranny of enacting civil rights. I guess it's the South's bad luck that both times they rallied against Federal tyranny, the main impetus had to due with how black people were treated.
Not even close to being on the same order of magnitude.
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Sure, but it's a symbol of a very specific rebellion. Let's take your argument at face value for a moment. Modern southerners trying to repurpose the flag for a more broad rebellion. Public perception as to the meaning of that symbol hasn't changed. Do they decide to change tacts? No. And why is that? At the moment I'm beginning to think because they're more stubborn than rebellious.

They know what the confederate flag means and they don't care about perception, much like they knew slavery was wrong but they didn't want to give that up either.
"Repurpose"? No, and that's where you're stumbling, it was always that purpose. Again, it's about perspective. None of the troops were rallying around the Stars and Bars for the purpose of keeping slaves, because 99% of them didn't own slaves to begin with. They held it dear because it was a symbol representing their resistance against an invading force.
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Are you unfamiliar with the concept of inertia? It's how we have a football team named "Redskins".
Inertia works both ways, no?

As we discussed in the Redskins thread, my awareness of the term, almost exclusively, is linked to a football team, not racism.
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
It is true that the vast majority of southerners didn't own slaves. But the vast majority of southerners derived their income from a slave-based economy. It's no different than from today where in coal country most people don't own the coal mines. But since there income is derived from a coal-based economy they tend to resist outside regulations which threaten that.

Oh and as for the "unequal congressional representation" claim. Need I remind you of the Three-Fifths Compromise where slave-holding states got to count every 3 out of 5 slaves in their total population count which determined such representation? Seeing as how the slaves had no voice whatsoever in the affairs of government, white Southerners were actually over-represented in Congress. So you are absolutely right. Many white Southerners felt particularly aggrieved because they couldn't include ALL of the slaves in their state's population count. Imagine that.

OAW
is all your history knowledge as full of fictional stereotypes and soap opera plots? Perhaps ignoring the rewrite of history the libs are doing and go back and read newspapers from the era. You can find them on microfische at your library. Great history education awaits. BTW - the civil war was about the feds stomping over many states rights. We are the UNITED STATES. Words mean something.
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Sure, but it's a symbol of a very specific rebellion. Let's take your argument at face value for a moment. Modern southerners trying to repurpose the flag for a more broad rebellion. Public perception as to the meaning of that symbol hasn't changed. Do they decide to change tacts? No. And why is that? At the moment I'm beginning to think because they're more stubborn than rebellious.

They know what the confederate flag means and they don't care about perception, much like they knew slavery was wrong but they didn't want to give that up either.
Case in point. Back in the early 90s around the time Spike Lee released his iconic film Malcolm X (1992) - IMDb young African-Americans wearing variations of shirts and hats like these was all the rage ...




I probably have some buried in the recesses of my closet myself. Not that I could fit the shirt anymore. But in any event, when such shirts and hats had become ubiquitous and you couldn't walk 100 yards without seeing someone wearing one ... all of a sudden we started seeing white people rocking things like this:



Which I actually thought was pretty funny in a cleverly racist sort of way. But some people swear on a stack of bibles that it has nothing to do with race though.

OAW
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Inertia works both ways, no?

As we discussed in the Redskins thread, my awareness of the term, almost exclusively, is linked to a football team, not racism.
…and what do you think the popular consensus on the confederate battle flag is?
     
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Aug 20, 2014, 01:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
It is true that the vast majority of southerners didn't own slaves. But the vast majority of southerners derived their income from a slave-based economy. It's no different than from today where in coal country most people don't own the coal mines. But since there income is derived from a coal-based economy they tend to resist outside regulations which threaten that.

Oh and as for the "unequal congressional representation" claim. Need I remind you of the Three-Fifths Compromise where slave-holding states got to count every 3 out of 5 slaves in their total population count which determined such representation? Seeing as how the slaves had no voice whatsoever in the affairs of government, white Southerners were actually over-represented in Congress. So you are absolutely right. Many white Southerners felt particularly aggrieved because they couldn't include ALL of the slaves in their state's population count. Imagine that.

OAW
Again, you're wrapping the whole of the South's feelings around what a very small minority were trying to hold on to. Most Southerners didn't derive their income from slavery, in fact, slavery was taking most of their income, because slaves were essentially free labor.
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