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#YesAllGamergate (Page 3)
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Laminar
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Nov 5, 2014, 11:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
You see the mistake here is not to think that Candy Crush isn't a real game, the misconception is how many people who play computer games self-identify as »gamers« -- a very small minority.
I'm afraid of getting too deep into one of those legendary PWL point-by-point arguments that totally loses track of the original discussion, so I'll try and keep this short.

You're flipping cause and effect: there is no significant market for AAA titles among women, because all of the existing ones feature male-oriented these.
On what basis are you so certain of that assertion? Why can't I say, "Women purchase makeup more than men do because no one's done a good job of marketing makeup to men yet"? I think it's deeper than that.

»Gaming« (as in playing games) has become main stream main stream, and nowadays you would never claim that there isn't a significant market amongst women for AAA movies, right?
Were movies historically consumed by an overwhelming majority of men?

I don't even think it's a proper representation of the demographics of that genre anymore: AAA titles need millions of sales to be profitable. And certain things are becoming less and less acceptable (like using racial slurs in public or defame black people).
I believe my point stands: If you're going to complain about the over-representation of male-oriented themes in AAA console titles, don't use a study showing that lots of women kill time by playing Candy Crush to prove that there's a market for female-oriented themes in AAA console titles.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 5, 2014, 11:32 PM
 
@Oreo

As for the second part, I think I get your point. It's a good one, and I'll back off.

However, I want to make one thing clear...

My statements regarding the factual shortcomings of her Hitman analysis are accurate. As a "strive to discover objective truth" kinda guy, this sorta thing matters to me.
     
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Nov 6, 2014, 03:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Perhaps I've misjudged her, but everything I've seen gives me the impression she gins the shit up.
Because of what you said below, I went back to watch her "women as background decoration" vids. And man, she does not gin sh!t up at all.

Watching those videos, I just couldn't believe the number of strippers and prostitutes I saw. Despite being video games which are "gritty and realistic," it's astounding how unrealistic it all is. "Gritty" games seem to reflect a universe where female sex workers outnumber every single other profession by 1000 to 1.

While I can count maybe two dozen well-characterized women in the entire history of video games, I'm just flabbergasted by the startling variety of strippers and hookers. Clearly, the industry has decided firmly where to focus their art development.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
The example I saw, which I'm extrapolating to her analysis of GTA, was a bit on the game Hitman. There's a mission in a strip club. The strip club has strippers in it. Like every other human in the game you can kill them. Like every dead body in the game, you can stuff it in a box. The game penalizes you for it. Your job is to kill your target, not civilians.

The strippers are there for you to sneak past. That's the point of the game. You're a stealthy assassin, not someone on a rampage.

Sarkeesian, who shows you kicking stripper corpses, dragging their lifeless bodies and stuffing them in a box, says this is what the game encourages you to do.

I can lodge those complaints without lying.
This is the part I went to check, because I didn't recall her saying that at all. And she's not lying, you've misrepresenting what she says.

When talking over this exact scene, she specifies the difference between "encouraging play" and "rewarding choices." Any game that includes a particular play mechanic is subtly encouraging and tempting you to test it out to see what happens. And frankly, anyone who has played a game where you are permitted to kill innocent people and fling their bodies around has done so.

You may not be rewarded for stealing that heavy Vox shotgun from the toy store in Bioshock Infinite, but the game is definitely encouraging you to try doing it.
     
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Nov 6, 2014, 03:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Let me put Anita's videos in MacNN terms:

It's like if she came here, saw the color scheme was blue, and said that blue is generally a male-dominated color, and MacNN must exclude women because of it, and everyone here is mysoginistic.

That sums up Anita's "logic".
It's always funny to watch a non-feminist tell us all how "feminists actually think."

Because your typical feminist, if asked about colour and gender at all, would tell you colours like pink and blue have been gendered that way only recently, and the gendering of colour is a matter of arbitrary cultural socialization.

I heard somewhere that blue used to represent girls (harkening back to statues of the Virgin Mary) while pink was the colour for boys (as grown men wore red). Purple is now considered a rather "fabulous" colour, but it used to be associated with royalty and conquerors.
     
lpkmckenna
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Nov 6, 2014, 04:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
No, you're wrong. Sorry, but you are. This is the problem well-informed people have with Anita's videos.

She says that "you" (the person) can act out against these women and that's why they're there in the game, so that you (the person) can act out your violence using video games.
Wrong. Dead wrong. Inexcusably wrong.

She. Does. Not. Say. This. Or. Any. Thing. Remotely. Close. To. That.

She *explicitly* says game designers add this stuff in a misguided attempt to create a "gritty" and "realistic" and "adult" environment.

You are not only NOT well-informed, you are either ignorantly or deliberately misinforming other people about what Anita says.
     
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Nov 6, 2014, 08:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
On what basis are you so certain of that assertion? Why can't I say, "Women purchase makeup more than men do because no one's done a good job of marketing makeup to men yet"? I think it's deeper than that.
There already are markets where female gamers (the non-Candy Crush kind) are paying good money to play their games. The fact that women are playing as many of the trivial games (men make up the other ~50 %!) tells you that they are in principle ok with playing games. Nobody is even trying very hard to venture off the beaten track and make serious games for demographics which are not of the hardcore gamer-type.
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I believe my point stands: If you're going to complain about the over-representation of male-oriented themes in AAA console titles, don't use a study showing that lots of women kill time by playing Candy Crush to prove that there's a market for female-oriented themes in AAA console titles.
I think even a lot of males are bored/turned off by the kinds of AAA titles which have appeared. Destiny (the fabled $500 million game), for instance, has zero, absolutely zero appeal to me. While many of these games are visually stunning and I'm sure well-executed from a technical point of view, the theme doesn't resonate with me -- and many of my friends who like me »used to be gamers«. So I don't even think all the themes that would get women interested are exclusive to them.
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Nov 6, 2014, 08:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My statements regarding the factual shortcomings of her Hitman analysis are accurate. As a "strive to discover objective truth" kinda guy, this sorta thing matters to me.
I understand that, and I know that you'd like to base the discussion off of »the truth«. But here (to me at least), the main point isn't how something is, but how it is perceived -- something that is inherently subjective. As a mathematician and physicists, I understand that starting discussions from this premise is hard and perhaps unusual, because you're not basing your arguments off of facts. As I said, you can make a pretty good case (based on facts) why women get turned off by games -- even if »they don't accurately understand the intentions of the game's designer«. That's the higher-order bit.
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Nov 6, 2014, 10:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Because of what you said below, I went back to watch her "women as background decoration" vids. And man, she does not gin sh!t up at all.

Watching those videos, I just couldn't believe the number of strippers and prostitutes I saw. Despite being video games which are "gritty and realistic," it's astounding how unrealistic it all is. "Gritty" games seem to reflect a universe where female sex workers outnumber every single other profession by 1000 to 1.
Knoxville's a small city, by any standard, but on any given night you can see half a dozen hookers per block on Magnolia ave. In that area, at that time, they do outnumber every other profession combined (except maybe the drug dealers). I get the impression that a lot of the people complaining about the "realism" in those types of games have no clue what life in a real inner city looks like.
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subego  (op)
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Nov 6, 2014, 01:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
This is the part I went to check, because I didn't recall her saying that at all. And she's not lying, you've misrepresenting what she says.

When talking over this exact scene, she specifies the difference between "encouraging play" and "rewarding choices." Any game that includes a particular play mechanic is subtly encouraging and tempting you to test it out to see what happens. And frankly, anyone who has played a game where you are permitted to kill innocent people and fling their bodies around has done so.

You may not be rewarded for stealing that heavy Vox shotgun from the toy store in Bioshock Infinite, but the game is definitely encouraging you to try doing it.
That's the question. Are the designers subtly encouraging you to do this?

Putting a whopping two strippers in a piece of the game which is designed to take 15 seconds to get through, late enough in the game where you are no longer experimenting with the engine, and actively reducing your score for going off the rails?

This isn't subtle encouragement.

It's a shit example. What's worse, is a shit example in the face of numerous good examples.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 6, 2014, 01:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I understand that, and I know that you'd like to base the discussion off of »the truth«. But here (to me at least), the main point isn't how something is, but how it is perceived -- something that is inherently subjective. As a mathematician and physicists, I understand that starting discussions from this premise is hard and perhaps unusual, because you're not basing your arguments off of facts. As I said, you can make a pretty good case (based on facts) why women get turned off by games -- even if »they don't accurately understand the intentions of the game's designer«. That's the higher-order bit.
The issue for me here has been, well... frankly, I don't need that higher-order bit to have a better general understanding of the situation. I (more or less) understand the medium enough to have a handle on designer intent, and can still argue murderable hookers is a bad choice.

Where the higher order bit helps me is I should be a little less in Sarkeesian's face about this. It's her "trigger", and I cut people slack for their triggers.
     
starman
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Nov 6, 2014, 03:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
Wrong. Dead wrong. Inexcusably wrong.

She. Does. Not. Say. This. Or. Any. Thing. Remotely. Close. To. That.

She *explicitly* says game designers add this stuff in a misguided attempt to create a "gritty" and "realistic" and "adult" environment.

You are not only NOT well-informed, you are either ignorantly or deliberately misinforming other people about what Anita says.
Yes. She. Does.

Transcript:
"So in many of the titles we’ve been discussing, the game makers have set up a series of possible scenarios involving vulnerable, eroticized female characters. Players are then invited to explore and exploit those situations during their play-through.

The player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted upon,because they were designed, constructed and placed in the environment for that singular purpose. Players are meant to derive a perverse pleasure from desecrating the bodies of unsuspecting virtual female characters.

It’s a rush streaming from a carefully concocted mix of sexual arousal connected to the act of controlling and punishing representations of female sexuality."
So she's saying that players get a rush from killing women in video games.

The problem is that she's saying this voiced-over clips from Hitman where you're doing something you're not supposed to.

Sorry, that's wrong.

Let's break it down:

So in many of the titles we’ve been discussing, the game makers have set up a series of possible scenarios involving vulnerable, eroticized female characters.
This is true, but not every developer puts those women in that position. You have to go out as a player and find that yourself.

Players are then invited to explore and exploit those situations during their play-through.
Total. Lie.

The player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted upon,because they were designed, constructed and placed in the environment for that singular purpose.
This line bothers me the most. It's like saying men can't help themselves and/or the games are designed that way. In many cases in these games, you don't have to interact with these women at all, they're in the background.

But she leaves that point out, again, leaving out the context.

It’s a rush streaming from a carefully concocted mix of sexual arousal connected to the act of controlling and punishing representations of female sexuality."
This is just disgusting.
( Last edited by starman; Nov 6, 2014 at 03:39 PM. )

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starman
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Nov 6, 2014, 03:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That's the question. Are the designers subtly encouraging you to do this?

Putting a whopping two strippers in a piece of the game which is designed to take 15 seconds to get through, late enough in the game where you are no longer experimenting with the engine, and actively reducing your score for going off the rails?

This isn't subtle encouragement.

It's a shit example. What's worse, is a shit example in the face of numerous good examples.
This x10000000

This is why I despise Anita's videos. She takes things out of context. Those strippers are NOT there to encourage anyone to kill them, they're there as a simple mechanic for if you screw up.

And subego is 100% correct - it's so late in the game that you should never screw up, but some people can.

I saw a video response to that video and the person made a very good point - every single play through video shows how you're supposed to AVOID the strippers.

Anita takes the truth out of context and twists it. I already game three examples of that.

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Laminar
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Nov 6, 2014, 04:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I think even a lot of males are bored/turned off by the kinds of AAA titles which have appeared. Destiny (the fabled $500 million game), for instance, has zero, absolutely zero appeal to me. While many of these games are visually stunning and I'm sure well-executed from a technical point of view, the theme doesn't resonate with me -- and many of my friends who like me »used to be gamers«. So I don't even think all the themes that would get women interested are exclusive to them.
So now we've regressed down to anecdotes.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 6, 2014, 04:27 PM
 
FPSs are the Action Movie (or perhaps Comic Book Movie) of the gaming medium. Saying they don't appeal to you isn't noteworthy.

Of course, a fair question to ask might be "Where is the Charlie's Angels of FPSs?" (Which reminds me, Perfect Dark, Mirror's Edge and Portal all had female protagonists).

How did Beyond: Two Souls do with female gamers?
     
Laminar
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Nov 6, 2014, 06:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Of course, a fair question to ask might be "Where is the Charlie's Angels of FPSs?" (Which reminds me, Perfect Dark, Mirror's Edge and Portal all had female protagonists).
Also Metroid.

But your post reminded me - of the 6 or 7 DVDs my wife owned when we got married, 2 of them were Charlie's Angels. Was that movie specifically popular with women? I've never even thought of it.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 6, 2014, 06:31 PM
 
It's a feminist action movie. Empowering. Hell I think Demi Moore is the villain in the second one.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 6, 2014, 06:43 PM
 
Was there an Alias game?
     
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Nov 6, 2014, 08:47 PM
 
I've been told, for decades, that violent media doesn't make you violent, dozens of peer-reviewed studies testing thousands of individuals have gone into showing there's no correlation between the violence in games and real life violence. Now, here comes Sarkeesian, stating essentially the opposite (misogynistic themes in games make men behave the same way), and BAM, people flip to believe the opposite. So, was Tipper Gore right all those years ago? Did Slayer and Two Live Crew corrupt an entire generation of young men?

Maybe Oral Roberts can float some money her way, since they're essentially preaching the same thing?
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Laminar
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Nov 6, 2014, 09:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
It's a feminist action movie. Empowering. Hell I think Demi Moore is the villain in the second one.
I'm sure my observation isn't unique, but considering it's a "feminist action movie" I find the fact that their boss is a man and the title of the movie implies a man's ownership of the women ironic.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 7, 2014, 12:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I've been told, for decades, that violent media doesn't make you violent, dozens of peer-reviewed studies testing thousands of individuals have gone into showing there's no correlation between the violence in games and real life violence. Now, here comes Sarkeesian, stating essentially the opposite (misogynistic themes in games make men behave the same way), and BAM, people flip to believe the opposite. So, was Tipper Gore right all those years ago? Did Slayer and Two Live Crew corrupt an entire generation of young men?

Maybe Oral Roberts can float some money her way, since they're essentially preaching the same thing?
Here's how I would sand down some of the edges of Sarkeesian's position in the above.

The correlation isn't videogame violence and real violence, it's cultural pressure and real violence. The more we as a society get squicked by violence towards women, the more the cultural standard becomes there are consequences to it, the more a woman feels she'll be backed up by society for seeking help, the less it will happen.

If violence against women was the third rail racism is, the strip club sequence never would have left the brainstorming stage. Not without some serious thought being put into it.

Is the racism model what I want? No, that's got its own issues, but ****... if we did... a lot less women would get beat up. A lot less.
( Last edited by subego; Nov 7, 2014 at 12:39 AM. )
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 7, 2014, 08:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I'm sure my observation isn't unique, but considering it's a "feminist action movie" I find the fact that their boss is a man and the title of the movie implies a man's ownership of the women ironic.
Well, the name is a necessary evil for funding and brand recognition. However, if I recall the tv show, you never actually see Charlie, and the only male they deal with is a bumbling buffoon.
     
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Nov 7, 2014, 09:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I've been told, for decades, that violent media doesn't make you violent, dozens of peer-reviewed studies testing thousands of individuals have gone into showing there's no correlation between the violence in games and real life violence. Now, here comes Sarkeesian, stating essentially the opposite (misogynistic themes in games make men behave the same way), and BAM, people flip to believe the opposite. So, was Tipper Gore right all those years ago? Did Slayer and Two Live Crew corrupt an entire generation of young men?
You're making a false analogy: unlike the (missing) connection between, say, mass shootings and violent games, misogyny and violence against women are common and deeply entrenched in society. I'm not claiming video games are the cause, but they're a mirror of society which shows you that this is still a problem.
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Nov 7, 2014, 09:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If violence against women was the third rail racism is, the strip club sequence never would have left the brainstorming stage. Not without some serious thought being put into it.
Yup, exactly: »Sprinkling in some hookers to spice things up« should no longer be acceptable.
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Nov 7, 2014, 09:33 AM
 
When space aliens actually land, they'll be greeted by humanity cracking them on the back of the neck to take their guns.

Incidentally, way to keep things civil, I appreciate it. Keep in mind, that if the Internet at large starts polluting the discussion, I will delete this thread so fast it will break light speed.
     
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Nov 7, 2014, 02:01 PM
 
Whether Charlies Angels was empowering or sexploitation (aren't the girls cute when they do men jobs? funny how much private detective work requires a bikini!), it was fun. I liked both the original and the reboots, and yes there was a time when little 10 yr old me wanted to be a cop... so yay, role models? Laura Holt was a much better detective.

Going to get back to discuss this, a lot going on. Until then, yes, I know Lara is a lot more realistic now, and I'd love to play the latest game if I only had an xbox or playstation.
     
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Nov 7, 2014, 02:04 PM
 
I"m pretty sure there were interviews with Drew Barrymore saying she produced them because it was females kicking ass.
     
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Nov 7, 2014, 02:25 PM
 
They sure did! And I love Drew Barrymore.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 7, 2014, 03:13 PM
 
I never saw the movie, but did they keep the thing where they get into "disguise" by wearing big sunglasses?
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 7, 2014, 03:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mike Wuerthele View Post
Incidentally, way to keep things civil, I appreciate it. Keep in mind, that if the Internet at large starts polluting the discussion, I will delete this thread so fast it will break light speed.
You mean, like, if this thread fills up with cat GIFs, or we have an atheism circlejerk?
     
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Nov 7, 2014, 04:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
You mean, like, if this thread fills up with cat GIFs, or we have an atheism circlejerk?
Threads like this attract the wrong crowd, who want to crowd the discussion with the One True Opinion.

I'll leave it as a exercise for the reader to figure out who I'm talking about, but I like our little (well-policed) corner of the Internet.
     
The Final Dakar
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Nov 7, 2014, 04:01 PM
 
MRAs?
     
Laminar
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Nov 7, 2014, 04:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Going to get back to discuss this, a lot going on. Until then, yes, I know Lara is a lot more realistic now, and I'd love to play the latest game if I only had an xbox or playstation.
Available for Mac or PC, $20. System requirements don't seem too taxing as long as you have a recent Mac.
     
Laminar
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Nov 7, 2014, 04:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Mike Wuerthele View Post
Incidentally, way to keep things civil, I appreciate it. Keep in mind, that if the Internet at large starts polluting the discussion, I will delete this thread so fast it will break light speed.
You don't have to worry about that. Haven't you heard? MacNN is dying, not gaining members.
     
Laminar
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Nov 7, 2014, 04:25 PM
 
Also, I just realized Steam has a "Female Protagonist" tag with 263 games.
     
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Nov 7, 2014, 04:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You don't have to worry about that. Haven't you heard? MacNN is dying, not gaining members.
You may be surprised how much actual human lurker traffic we have.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 7, 2014, 04:54 PM
 
They're sort of like CHUDs.
     
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Nov 7, 2014, 05:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I've been told, for decades, that violent media doesn't make you violent, dozens of peer-reviewed studies testing thousands of individuals have gone into showing there's no correlation between the violence in games and real life violence. Now, here comes Sarkeesian, stating essentially the opposite (misogynistic themes in games make men behave the same way), and BAM, people flip to believe the opposite. So, was Tipper Gore right all those years ago? Did Slayer and Two Live Crew corrupt an entire generation of young men?
I've stayed as far away from gamergate as possible but this is kinda of my thought process as well. Players killing and torturing stripper corpses says more about human nature in general than it proves underlying misogyny in video games. Of course, there is a ton of misogyny in gaming if that's all you look for. I'm playing Alien Isolation right now, main character is Ripley's daughter, and they both kick total ass, not in a cutesy way, more like an ass kicking way. Thirdly, the vile things people can say anonymously on the internet disgusts me. 4Chan-ers were joking about getting the creator of Depression Quest to kill herself, that's malicious shit, and once again it speaks to an inherent evil in people rather than gaming as the root cause. Trust me, if gaming could turn a normal person into a lunatic you would have seen me on the news by now.
     
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Nov 7, 2014, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Available for Mac or PC, $20. System requirements don't seem too taxing as long as you have a recent Mac.
there goes my weekend. thanks!
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 7, 2014, 06:50 PM
 
There's a key dynamic here Sarkeesian is missing out on.

Take the people in this thread. Chances are, no one her has ever laid a finger on a woman. Further, there is no piece of fiction in existence which could change that.

It's a very short hop from there to "if it's existence won't change my behavior, how would its absence change someone else's?"

It's a totally valid question, but I think a proper answer involves getting inside the head of someone who would hit a woman.

I'll be 100% honest with you. I have zero desire to do that.

Having fallen short on that front, the best I can do is reiterate the racism analogy. The cultural response to racism has been to get more and more intolerant of it. I am thoroughly convinced this has made a significant group of people less racist than they would have been otherwise.

I want to point out however, in a similar vein to the violence, it's doubtful anyone in this thread needed extreme public intolerance of racism in order to realize they shouldn't be racist.
     
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Nov 8, 2014, 03:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
You're making a false analogy: unlike the (missing) connection between, say, mass shootings and violent games, misogyny and violence against women are common and deeply entrenched in society. I'm not claiming video games are the cause, but they're a mirror of society which shows you that this is still a problem.
You're saying I made a false analogy and then not telling my why, just saying "because". Violence in all its forms is "common and deeply entrenched in society", although it's seen as particularly distasteful to some, the fact that its against women doesn't change the trigger. Games aren't doing that, it's much, much deeper, connected to broken homes, lack of parental guidance, and poor social skills (not knowing how to behave around the opposite sex). Media, in whatever form, doesn't cause or even foster that type of behavior, the seeds of it are already there. An adult male, or even an older teen, who plays GTA:V isn't going to be compelled to do what he sees in game, if he does feel that way there was some seriously screwed up real life shit that happened to him when he was much younger that's the cause.
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Nov 8, 2014, 05:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
An adult male, or even an older teen, who plays GTA:V isn't going to be compelled to do what he sees in game,
I absolutely 100% drive faster in my car right after a session of GTA.
     
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Nov 8, 2014, 11:28 AM
 
but how many pedestrians do you mow down? I'm sure it's quite a few less than in the game.
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Nov 8, 2014, 01:59 PM
 
@CpTp

Are their people in that "****ed up RL" group who are racist? Is the amount of racism displayed by that group been affected by the last 15 years of extreme public disapproval of racism?
     
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Nov 9, 2014, 12:31 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
@CpTp

Are their people in that "****ed up RL" group who are racist? Is the amount of racism displayed by that group been affected by the last 15 years of extreme public disapproval of racism?
I believe it's fairly common, because not all locales have really espoused extreme disapproval of racism, or it's been allowed to flourish in some ways while not being tolerated in others. However, I can see how some people who hate one group would also hate another.
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Nov 9, 2014, 09:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Take the people in this thread. Chances are, no one her has ever laid a finger on a woman. Further, there is no piece of fiction in existence which could change that.

It's a very short hop from there to "if it's existence won't change my behavior, how would its absence change someone else's?"
If you want to understand why some women get so worked up, I think you should see it from the their perspective: how many of your female friends have been, say, made uncomfortable by a lewd comment, groped, beaten by their spouse or have been raped? Violence against women is common, and for you and me to say »well, I have never beaten a woman« doesn't exactly help to understand their perspective.
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Nov 9, 2014, 02:12 PM
 
Are you talking to me, or attempting to supplement my statement?
( Last edited by subego; Nov 9, 2014 at 03:12 PM. )
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 9, 2014, 03:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I believe it's fairly common, because not all locales have really espoused extreme disapproval of racism, or it's been allowed to flourish in some ways while not being tolerated in others. However, I can see how some people who hate one group would also hate another.
I'm talking the aggregate here.

Are we, in total, less racist than we were 20 years ago?

Can a not insignificant portion of that decline be traced to the change in societal acceptance?

In my experience with ****ed up people (which I'll admit is limited) they are shockingly attentive to peer pressure. By about an order of magnitude more than you or I.
     
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Nov 15, 2014, 11:24 PM
 
I'm mildly amused how comet scientist's shirt has become a microcosm of Gamergate.
     
Laminar
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Nov 16, 2014, 03:56 AM
 
One of humanity's greatest accomplishments to date - landing a tiny spaceship on a comet millions of miles away? Let's make this about gender equality.

In fairness, I think both sides are stupid.
     
subego  (op)
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Nov 16, 2014, 11:53 AM
 
Can't we make this about Kim Kardashian?
     
 
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