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SONY Hacks and fallout vs Charlie and further intolerences
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BadKosh
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Jan 8, 2015, 10:20 AM
 
What is it with these wack jobs? First the North Koreans Hack SONY because Un can't take a joke, and now the Islamoterrorists are killing people because THEY are too immature, violent, and shallow. I'm sorry our own cowardly Mainstream Propagandists couldn't get past their fears, and their narrative to push back.

#BuryMosquesInGarbage.
     
Uncle Skeleton
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Jan 8, 2015, 10:42 AM
 
How do you push back?
     
BadKosh  (op)
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Jan 8, 2015, 01:15 PM
 
Publish without concern for others opinions.
Failing to tread lightly around the Muslim savages.

It is a problem for MUSLIMS to deal with. They must grow up as a people. Violence and intolerance are primitive responses. Modern people can take jokes and have been subjected to the same sort of harrassment without resorting to killing. What about the cross in a jar of pee? The Nun statue covered in cow poo? Muslims and the thinned skinned North Koreans seem to be the only people who attack those with different viewpoints, or satire. Who still believes Islam is a religion of peace?
     
besson3c
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Jan 8, 2015, 01:16 PM
 
Yeah, and should mosques be literally buried in garbage?
     
besson3c
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Jan 8, 2015, 01:17 PM
 
Yikes, I can see how this thread will turn out.

BadKosh, you are a moron.
     
osiris
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Jan 8, 2015, 01:19 PM
 
They do need to grow up as a people, it's as backwards as it gets.
I'm a pretty tolerant guy but this attack has shed a different light on the subject for me.
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osiris
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Jan 8, 2015, 01:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Yeah, and should mosques be literally buried in garbage?
That would be going too far - but clerical leaders need to address the extremist members of their religion ASAP.
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besson3c
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Jan 8, 2015, 01:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
That would be going too far - but clerical leaders need to address the extremist members of their religion ASAP.
How? This is the exact same argument as this so called "black community" needing to get their act together. If these extremists were inclined to listen to the sorts of clerical leaders that would condemn this violence, they probably wouldn't have gone through with these acts in the first place. I mean, sure, a public condemnation would be nice, but it's not going to accomplish much. The new pope seems more accepting of gay people, are all Catholics in the world now going to stop their condemnation of homosexuality? Of course not. Of course, this condemnation hasn't been violent so I'm not making a direct comparison, but I'm making the point that you can't herd cats.
     
osiris
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Jan 8, 2015, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
How? This is the exact same argument as this so called "black community" needing to get their act together. If these extremists were inclined to listen to the sorts of clerical leaders that would condemn this violence, they probably wouldn't have gone through with these acts in the first place. I mean, sure, a public condemnation would be nice, but it's not going to accomplish much. The new pope seems more accepting of gay people, are all Catholics in the world now going to stop their condemnation of homosexuality? Of course not. Of course, this condemnation hasn't been violent so I'm not making a direct comparison, but I'm making the point that you can't herd cats.
How? Demand that all practicing members of the religion adhere to a code of peace and non violence - as it will only produce a negative result.
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besson3c
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Jan 8, 2015, 01:29 PM
 
I called BadKosh a moron because the way you handle confronting bad and archaic ideas (e.g. terrorism) is not by responding to their violence with violence of your own kind in "burying mosques", but by doing everything you can to cut off the oxygen to these ideas. You don't fight stupid with stupid.
     
besson3c
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Jan 8, 2015, 01:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
How? Demand that all practicing members of the religion adhere to a code of peace and non violence - as it will only produce a negative result.
Haven't I addressed why this will probably not accomplish much?
     
osiris
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Jan 8, 2015, 01:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Haven't I addressed why this will probably not accomplish much?
No really

But the point of the public denouncement of violence is to calm the nerves of people less tolerant than myself who wish to wipe every muslim off the face of the earth. See what I mean? Something has to be done from the muslim side. something positive.
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Jan 8, 2015, 03:16 PM
 
Good reaction:

Aut Caesar aut nihil.
     
besson3c
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Jan 8, 2015, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
No really

But the point of the public denouncement of violence is to calm the nerves of people less tolerant than myself who wish to wipe every muslim off the face of the earth. See what I mean? Something has to be done from the muslim side. something positive.

I see your point, and I agree with this. I thought you were suggesting that this would make an impact on future violent outbreaks.
     
OAW
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Jan 8, 2015, 04:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
That would be going too far - but clerical leaders need to address the extremist members of their religion ASAP.
Well there has been this ....

“Free expression and a free press are core values; they are universal values, principles that can be attacked but never eradicated, because brave and decent people around the world will never give in to the intimidation and the terror that those seeking to destroy those values employ,” Secretary of State John Kerry vowed in a statement Wednesday. “I agree with the French imam [Hassen Chalghoumi of Drancy], who today called the slain journalists 'martyrs for liberty.' Today’s murders are part of a larger confrontation, not between civilizations — no — but between civilization itself and those who are opposed to a civilized world.”
Paris attack rekindles debate over freedom of expression - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

Hassan Chalghoumi - an imam of the Paris suburb of Drancy, visited the site of the attack at Charlie Hebdo headquarters.

Of the attackers, he said: "Their prophet is Satan. There is no connection between the Islamic faith and this minority."
As it happened: Charlie Hebdo attack - BBC News

The Grand Mosque of Paris, one of the largest in France, issued a statement on its website shortly after the attacks, saying its community was "shocked" and "horrified" by the violence.

We strongly condemn these kind of acts and we expect the authorities to take the most appropriate measures. Our community is stunned by what just happened. It’s a whole section of our democracy that is seriously affected. This is a deafening declaration of war. Times have changed, and we are now entering a new era of confrontation.
The Union of Islamic Organizations of France also responded on its website, writing: “The UOIF condemns in the strongest terms this criminal attack, and these horrible murders. The UOIF expresses its deepest condolences to the families and all the employees of Charlie Weekly.”

Hassen Chalghoumi, imam of the Drancy mosque in Paris's Seine-Saint-Denis suburb, spoke with France's BFM TV and condemned the attackers, saying, "Their barbarism has nothing to do with Islam."

"I am extremely angry," Chalghoumi said. "These are criminals, barbarians. They have sold their soul to hell. This is not freedom. This is not Islam and I hope the French will come out united at the end of this."


Countless Muslim activists, leaders and authors took to social media Wednesday to express horror and dismay at the attack:
Follow the link to see all the Twitter screen grabs.

Muslims Around The World Condemn Charlie Hebdo Attack

OAW
( Last edited by OAW; Jan 8, 2015 at 06:04 PM. )
     
OAW
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Jan 8, 2015, 05:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by osiris View Post
No really

But the point of the public denouncement of violence is to calm the nerves of people less tolerant than myself who wish to wipe every muslim off the face of the earth. See what I mean? Something has to be done from the muslim side. something positive.
I get what you are saying, but those who wish to "wipe every muslim off the face of the earth" are the main ones who will demand public denouncements from Muslim leaders today ... and when it's shown to them like I did in my post above .... they will be the same people who will demand public denouncements from Muslim leaders tomorrow. They will either pretend like they didn't see such denouncements or simply never accept them. These are the same type of people who can watch video of Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson leading a march through the streets of Chicago denouncing gang violence on national TV (if they step away from Fox News for a moment that is) ... and then a week later when Sharpton is denouncing yet another unarmed black man being killed by the police they will say "Why doesn't Sharpton ever address black on black crime?"

OAW
     
besson3c
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Jan 8, 2015, 06:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I get what you are saying, but those who wish to "wipe every muslim off the face of the earth" are the main ones who will demand public denouncements from Muslim leaders today ... and when it's shown to them like I did in my post above .... they will be the same people who will demand public denouncements from Muslim leaders tomorrow. They will either pretend like they didn't see such denouncements or simply never accept them. These are the same type of people who can watch video of Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson leading a march through the streets of Chicago denouncing gang violence on national TV (if they step away from Fox News for a moment that is) ... and then a week later when Sharpton is denouncing yet another unarmed black man being killed by the police they will say "Why doesn't Sharpton ever address black on black crime?"

OAW


Exactly, and if we want to be direct about this, there are usually undertones of intolerance, sometimes overt like BadKosh's, but then again, he's a moron.
     
smacintush
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Jan 8, 2015, 07:22 PM
 
In the words of Anjem Choudary..."Muslims do not believe in the concept of freedom of expression."

These people are not compatible with modern, western society. Period. Islam does not ALLOW its followers to be civilized. So-called "moderate" muslims are nothing more than hypocrites who don't adhere to the tenets of their own evil religion.

As far as "tolerance"? Yes, morally we should "tolerate" others' beliefs. Meaning, we should not try to pass laws restricting a certain religion or anything of the sort. People, even ignorant, evil savages have the right to their own stupid beliefs. What we DO NOT have to do is respect their beliefs. We have an absolute right to say "That is ****ing STUPID, your faith is DUMBEST, most backward shit I have ever heard." Your religion and your culture are CHOSEN values and as such are subject to the same scrutiny and judgement as any other thing a person chooses.
     
besson3c
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Jan 8, 2015, 08:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
In the words of Anjem Choudary..."Muslims do not believe in the concept of freedom of expression."

These people are not compatible with modern, western society. Period. Islam does not ALLOW its followers to be civilized. So-called "moderate" muslims are nothing more than hypocrites who don't adhere to the tenets of their own evil religion.

As far as "tolerance"? Yes, morally we should "tolerate" others' beliefs. Meaning, we should not try to pass laws restricting a certain religion or anything of the sort. People, even ignorant, evil savages have the right to their own stupid beliefs. What we DO NOT have to do is respect their beliefs. We have an absolute right to say "That is ****ing STUPID, your faith is DUMBEST, most backward cheat I have ever heard." Your religion and your culture are CHOSEN values and as such are subject to the same scrutiny and judgement as any other thing a person chooses.

Please.

While a lack of freedom of expression is indeed backwards, there are many people of many faiths that choose to ignore the parts of it that don't work for them, or that they don't like. With Christians it's many things in the Old Testament.
     
smacintush
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Jan 9, 2015, 07:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Please.

While a lack of freedom of expression is indeed backwards, there are many people of many faiths that choose to ignore the parts of it that don't work for them, or that they don't like. With Christians it's many things in the Old Testament.
Yes, and those people are called hypocrites as well. I'm not really sure what your point is...that since there are hypocrites in other religions that it somehow validates hypocrite Muslims? Or is it that since many people do it that somehow makes it not hypocritical? (Though, you also have to remember that Christianity is ultimately the religion ABOUT Jesus, not OF Jesus)

As Sam Harris puts it: "The reality of martyrdom and the sanctity of armed jihad are about as controversial under Islam as the resurrection of Jesus is under Christianity."

This isn't the same as nitpicking and overlooking the minutia, it's a central theme.

So my question to you: If you have a religion that openly and clearly advocates (read:demands) violence against non-believers, and since you cannot reason someone out of their faith...how do you deal with these people?
     
BadKosh  (op)
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Jan 9, 2015, 07:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I called BadKosh a moron because the way you handle confronting bad and archaic ideas (e.g. terrorism) is not by responding to their violence with violence of your own kind in "burying mosques", but by doing everything you can to cut off the oxygen to these ideas. You don't fight stupid with stupid.
Go READ some history of past Muslim uprisings and how they had to be dealt with.
     
BadKosh  (op)
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Jan 9, 2015, 08:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Yeah, and should mosques be literally buried in garbage?
If it sends a message they finally understand? Sure. Its been done to American politicians for decades.
     
osiris
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Jan 9, 2015, 08:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I get what you are saying, but those who wish to "wipe every muslim off the face of the earth" are the main ones who will demand public denouncements from Muslim leaders today ... and when it's shown to them like I did in my post above .... they will be the same people who will demand public denouncements from Muslim leaders tomorrow. They will either pretend like they didn't see such denouncements or simply never accept them. These are the same type of people who can watch video of Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson leading a march through the streets of Chicago denouncing gang violence on national TV (if they step away from Fox News for a moment that is) ... and then a week later when Sharpton is denouncing yet another unarmed black man being killed by the police they will say "Why doesn't Sharpton ever address black on black crime?"

OAW
I see your point, however blacks aren't running around with machine guns killing masses of people in the name of Allah.


But if the black panthers started doing crap like the incident in Paris, I'm sure people like Sharpton would step up and condemn it more vocally than the Muslim population is in this one.
This is over a cartoon, for crissake, not civil rights, not some incarcerated criminal, but a cartoon. That, IMO, is extreme and backwards, at best. While I respect other people's beliefs, a line is crossed when you start killing people over it.
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subego
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Jan 9, 2015, 08:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Please.

While a lack of freedom of expression is indeed backwards, there are many people of many faiths that choose to ignore the parts of it that don't work for them, or that they don't like. With Christians it's many things in the Old Testament.
There's picking and choosing, and there's what smac says: "a central theme".

Christianity has numerous faults, but none of them are Jesus. He still remains the gold standard for good behavior. The most violent thing he did was flip over some tables.

Mohammed led 7th century armies, and sacked cities. There's a truly fundamental difference of approach in how these two went about "getting shit done", and the books based on their teachings reflect that.

It seems to me that to be a moderate Muslim, you need to do a fair amount of rejecting Mohammed himself, while OTOH, I'm not even Christian, and feel I reject the teachings of Jesus at my peril.

Not because they're holy, but because they're that good.
     
osiris
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Jan 9, 2015, 08:47 AM
 
Excellent - this needs to continue so that average joe media picks up on it.
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besson3c
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Jan 9, 2015, 08:50 AM
 
Smacintush: The point is that religion itself is incompatible with modern, western society, although I will grant you that there seems that the majority of people that commit these violent actions claim to be Muslim. I'm not sure that there is anything we can do with this information though.
     
besson3c
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Jan 9, 2015, 08:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There's picking and choosing, and there's what smac says: "a central theme".

Christianity has numerous faults, but none of them are Jesus. He still remains the gold standard for good behavior. The most violent thing he did was flip over some tables.

Mohammed led 7th century armies, and sacked cities. There's a truly fundamental difference of approach in how these two went about "getting paint done", and the books based on their teachings reflect that.

It seems to me that to be a moderate Muslim, you need to do a fair amount of rejecting Mohammed himself, while OTOH, I'm not even Christian, and feel I reject the teachings of Jesus at my peril.

Not because they're holy, but because they're that good.

True, but the Old Testament, the supposed word of God, has some pretty violent stuff in it. Thank goodness people don't really adhere to it much.
     
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Jan 9, 2015, 10:21 AM
 
This something you all need to watch if you want to understand what is going on.

The Crusades start at 28 minute mark.
( Last edited by Chongo; Jan 9, 2015 at 10:41 AM. )
     
smacintush
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Jan 9, 2015, 12:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Smacintush: The point is that religion itself is incompatible with modern, western society, although I will grant you that there seems that the majority of people that commit these violent actions claim to be Muslim.
I agree, and I guess my point is that of all the major religions Islam is the worst of them. These aren't just brainwashed kids...they are often educated, have careers and families etc..

I'm not sure that there is anything we can do with this information though.
There isn't much that CAN be done. All you can do is have moral clarity, and the moral courage to do what is right. We need to stop whitewashing what this religion is and who these people are. We need to be INTOLERANT of their condemnation and opposing freedom and individual rights. We need to pound the final nails in the coffin of multiculturalism and when threatened by savages who desire death for Allah...give it to them.
( Last edited by smacintush; Jan 9, 2015 at 03:53 PM. )
     
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Jan 9, 2015, 01:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
True, but the Old Testament, the supposed word of God, has some pretty violent stuff in it. Thank goodness people don't really adhere to it much.
The OT, from a Christian's perspective, is included in the Bible to add historical context for the Gospels, not as a standard to live by. Jesus was born to fulfill the Law, to teach that peace and love were more important than judgement and blind obedience. He taught 3 commandments; 1. There is only one God. 2. Love God with all that's in you. 3. Love and care for your neighbors. None of those marginalize the old Law but ingeniously include all of the moral obligations within them, while adding a good deal more individual responsibility to those around you.
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Jan 9, 2015, 01:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
The OT, from a Christian's perspective, is included in the Bible to add historical context for the Gospels, not as a standard to live by.
What about from a Jewish perspective then?
     
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Jan 9, 2015, 01:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Uncle Skeleton View Post
What about from a Jewish perspective then?
Which denomination? (Yes, I'm being completely serious.) Orthodox, Conservative, or Reformed? They all do share one major point, however. Adherence to the Law must be balanced with civil/secular laws and a moral obligation to life and community.
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Jan 9, 2015, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
I agree, and I guess my point is that of all the major religions Islam is the worst of them. These aren't just brainwashed kids...they are often educated, have careers and families etc..



There isn't much that CAN be done. All you can do is have moral clarity, and the moral courage to do what is right. We need to stop whitewashing what this religion is and who these people are. We need to be INTOLERANT of their condemnation and opposing to freedom and individual rights. We need to pound the final nails in the coffin of multiculturalism and when threatened by savages who desire death for Allah...give it to them.
Perhaps we really need to recognize that the Crusades ended 800 years ago, but the jihad has continued.
( Last edited by Chongo; Jan 10, 2015 at 06:28 AM. )
     
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Jan 9, 2015, 03:57 PM
 
Well, if one side decides they are at war then both sides ARE at war no matter how much they wish it weren't so.

As a great person once said: "You can evade reality, but you cannot evade the consequences of evading reality."
     
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Jan 10, 2015, 02:16 PM
 
"We have to take a look more closely at the nature of the so-called satire" - Former National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski

Um...no we ****in' don't.

The fact that this is even up for discussion is appalling. The whole point of free speech is to allow free exchange of ideas regardless of their content.
     
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Jan 10, 2015, 03:37 PM
 
I don't understand why American liberals bend over backwards to defend and appease radical Islamists but go postal over western/American conservatives. Here's a clue, those guys are 1000x more inflexible, violent, misogynistic, and intolerant than anything they'll encounter here. No one runs counter to (real) liberal ideology more than radical Islam, no one.
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Jan 10, 2015, 03:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I don't understand why American liberals bend over backwards to defend and appease radical Islamists but go postal over western/American conservatives. Here's a clue, those guys are 1000x more inflexible, violent, misogynistic, and intolerant than anything they'll encounter here. No one runs counter to (real) liberal ideology more than radical Islam, no one.
Where are you seeing any sort of defense of radical behavior? Certainly not here.
     
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Jan 10, 2015, 03:52 PM
 
I'd like to see the Met do an Andres Serrano show featuring a dung covered portrait of the "Prophet" along side "Piss Prophet"
     
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Jan 10, 2015, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Where are you seeing any sort of defense of radical behavior? Certainly not here.
Watch a few minutes of MSNBC and CNN
     
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Jan 10, 2015, 04:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Where are you seeing any sort of defense of radical behavior? Certainly not here.
You didn't watch the video above featuring Carter's National Security Adviser, apparently.
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Jan 11, 2015, 09:04 AM
 
Reviewing this thread I see some name calling. Let's not do that, thanks.
     
subego
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Jan 11, 2015, 10:04 AM
 
I feel I gave Islam a few uppercuts in this thread, so no one will accuse me of defending radicalism.

That said, I do believe this type of terrorism is intended to foment radicalism by provoking people to lash out at Islam.

I don't like helping that along, and I don't appreciate getting played.
     
smacintush
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Jan 11, 2015, 10:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Where are you seeing any sort of defense of radical behavior? Certainly not here.
Even Bill Maher knows that liberals are whitewashing these savages.
     
smacintush
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Jan 11, 2015, 10:56 AM
 
Speaking of Maher, he surprisingly seems to have his head on mostly straight with regards to this issue.
     
Chongo
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Jan 11, 2015, 11:14 AM
 
So, Cameron, Netanyahu and Abbas, Merkel, King Abdullah, Hollande are marching in Paris today. The US rep, Eric Holder? Why not Biden or Kerry?
     
besson3c
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Jan 11, 2015, 11:19 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You didn't watch the video above featuring Carter's National Security Adviser, apparently.

Chongo's video? No...

It is easy to mistake trying to steer conversation a certain way into some sort of support of these violent actions. I would be surprised if you could find somebody willing to go on American TV that would say openly and directly that he/she supports these murders.

And therefore, I don't understand why you felt that this population was big enough to center out this way.
     
besson3c
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Jan 11, 2015, 11:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by smacintush View Post
Even Bill Maher knows that liberals are whitewashing these savages.

That's not what anybody is doing though. Liberals are whitewashing Muslims, not Muslim extremists. There is much disconnect.

I think everybody would agree that there is a disproportionate amount of violence by Muslims in the name of their religion, the only disagreement is whether shining the light on them being Muslim is going to produce positive results, and whether it is a moral thing to do, in light of the statistically dominant non-violent Muslims.

It's the same argument we've been having about whether or not a leader saying "he guys, cut that out" can actually accomplish something.
     
besson3c
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Jan 11, 2015, 11:36 AM
 
Also, I don't agree with what Maher said about how when you mock the prophet you get what is coming to you is mainstream is some sort of interference to anything useful. The real question is whether a sin like that (in their world) justifies human beings taking action, and it doesn't seem dissimilar to the question of whether one should bomb an abortion clinic in the name of religion. That is, some will say that human beings should do a God's work, others will not (while perhaps acknowledging the religious text). However, Maher was inferring that hundreds of millions would, which was disingenuous.
     
Chongo
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Jan 11, 2015, 11:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Also, I don't agree with what Maher said about how when you mock the prophet you get what is coming to you is mainstream is some sort of interference to anything useful. The real question is whether a sin like that (in their world) justifies human beings taking action, and it doesn't seem dissimilar to the question of whether one should bomb an abortion clinic in the name of religion. That is, some will say that human beings should do a God's work, others will not (while perhaps acknowledging the religious text). However, Maher was inferring that hundreds of millions would, which was disingenuous.


When was the last abortuary bombed? Andres Serrano is still walking the planet (Piss Christ), so is Chris Ofili (Dung Madonna)
     
besson3c
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Jan 11, 2015, 11:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
When was the last abortuary bombed? Andres Serrano is still walking the planet (Piss Christ), so is the person who covered an image of the Blessed Mother and called it art.

How does this challenge my point? If hundreds of millions were in favor of human beings carrying out a God's wishes we'd be living in World War III right now.
     
 
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