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Brexit? (Page 2)
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Waragainstsleep
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Jun 24, 2016, 02:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Despite all that, against those kind of odds and adversaries, to make a change of this magnitude, from certainty to uncertainty, for a nation takes a whole heap of courage.
Its only brave if you know what the risks are.
Ironically, this vote was driven purely by fear. The leavers are mostly afraid of foreigners and other races, and at the same time they were told that all the logic and evidence based predictions that bad stuff would happen (like stock market crashes) were just fear mongering and should be ignored.

Its like that genius in Texas the other day who read a sign warning to stay out of the water because of alligators, then yelled "F**k alligators!" before jumping in and being killed by an alligator.
Was he brave because he should have expected to be eaten by an alligator? Or was he stupid because he was warned and chose not to believe it?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Hawkeye_a
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Jun 24, 2016, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
and the unmitigated fury from all the smart people on social media
*snicker*

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Its only brave if you know what the risks are.
Ironically, this vote was driven purely by fear. The leavers are mostly afraid of foreigners and other races, and at the same time they were told that all the logic and evidence based predictions that bad stuff would happen (like stock market crashes) were just fear mongering and should be ignored.
The "remain" were also running a campaign of fear, of saying the sky would fall if they voted to leave, etc. And here you are trying to claim that that has happened lol.

Fearmongerer .... and a sore loser, which is why you've begun to paint your opposition as ignorant compared to your supporters. Civilized indeed.
     
Doc HM
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Jun 24, 2016, 02:37 PM
 
It was also pleasing to see Nigel Farrage on the morning news, going back on the leave campaigns £350 million for the NHS pledge only an hour after the result. Apparently he always thought it was wrong to claim this. Well thanks Nigel for that.

Throughout the day we have also had Boris explaining that he wants a relationship with Europe that is essentially just like the EU, with all the benefits of EU membership but not actually being in the EU and sees no reason why this can't happen. Oh and apparently there is now "no hurry" to leave. Any time in the next four years is good apparently. Obviously our erstwhile european colleagues are looking for us to go a great deal sooner than that.
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turtle777
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Jun 24, 2016, 02:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
No one who voted to stay decided to Google the consequences afterwards?
Absolutely.

I personally made sure not a single person googled this beforehand.

-t
     
turtle777
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Jun 24, 2016, 02:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
It was also pleasing to see Nigel Farrage on the morning news, going back on the leave campaigns £350 million for the NHS pledge only an hour after the result. Apparently he always thought it was wrong to claim this. Well thanks Nigel for that.
If he never claimed it, it's a reasonable thing to say.
The decision is in the hands of future governments. No single group / party can make that promise and influence the outcome.

Nigel Farage is one of the few politicians that really understand economics, and how screwed up the EU and Euro is.

-t
     
Doc HM
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Jun 24, 2016, 02:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
If he never claimed it, it's a reasonable thing to say.
The decision is in the hands of future governments. No single group / party can make that promise and influence the outcome.

-t
That's true but it's dishonest to campaign on it and then roll back a day later. He should have been saying that at the time.
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turtle777
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Jun 24, 2016, 02:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
That's true but it's dishonest to campaign on it and then roll back a day later. He should have been saying that at the time.
Well, did he say it ? I don't know.

-t
     
subego
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Jun 24, 2016, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I don't think the article is making that assertion. Notwithstanding the quote from the one person who voted to leave. I think it's just saying that the British in general are inquiring about the consequences at a considerably higher rate after the vote than before. I don't think we can reach any conclusions as to which side is represented in those after-the-fact inquiries or to what degree one way or the other.

OAW
That's the problem. There's no way to reach a conclusion as to which side is represented by the spike in searches, therefore it's poor evidence for the proposition "many may not even know what they actually voted for".

The author would like for one to think the spike represents those who voted to leave, hence the meaningless anecdote.

More importantly however, the more the spike represents those who voted to leave, the more correct the proposition made by the author. Do I have to ask whether the author wants you to think they're wrong or right?
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 24, 2016, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post

The "remain" were also running a campaign of fear, of saying the sky would fall if they voted to leave, etc. And here you are trying to claim that that has happened lol.

Remain was simply telling it like it is. So far, things have panned out exactly as they predicted and leave denied. How about you wait until we're proven wrong before labelling us fear mongers?

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
sore loser, which is why you've begun to paint your opposition as ignorant compared to your supporters. Civilized indeed.
If I had been a German citizen voting against Adolf in the thirties I'd have been a sore loser too in your book.
The leave voters have no idea what they were voting for. They are less educated and its becoming increasingly obvious they don't know what they are doing. Loads of them can't believe what they've done already. I don't need to paint them as ignorant, its fact.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jun 24, 2016, 05:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
I presume you mean "you" in the general sense? Because I really don't have a dog in this race one way or the other.

OAW
That time it actually was a general "you", that's correct.
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Jun 24, 2016, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
*snicker*
Yeah, that gave me a good snicker as well.

The "remain" were also running a campaign of fear, of saying the sky would fall if they voted to leave, etc. And here you are trying to claim that that has happened lol.
The sky's gonna fall! The other kids won't play with us anymore! All you old people are just bigots! WHAAAAA!!

Fearmongerer .... and a sore loser, which is why you've begun to paint your opposition as ignorant compared to your supporters. Civilized indeed.
There is no civility within their cadre, they'll even abandon democracy and due process to get what they want. As one of my British friends said on the phone this morning, "Those vehemently in the Remain camp should stay with the EU, they can move to Germany and live under Merkel's regime. They'd be happier under a more authoritarian gov't and Britain would be better off without them. They can either get on or get the **** out."
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jun 24, 2016, 05:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If I had been a German citizen voting against Adolf in the thirties I'd have been a sore loser too in your book.
There's a huge difference here. This time the despots were denied
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Jun 24, 2016, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
So IOW it's not legally binding? As in the ruling party could back out if things really go south?

OAW
Technically, yes. The PM gets to activate article 50 to request to leave the union, and the PM can be fired by parliament (no-confidence vote). In practice that won't happen. Cameron is out - whoever comes after gets to decide what to do. If s/he decides not to activate that article 50, there is a question of accountability towards the voters. The EU is, by design, rather far removed from the voters, and thus takes such appearances very seriously. All in all, the EU must be seen to be pushing for an exit now, and the U.K. can only back down if the public opinion can somehow be seen to have shifted so that the next PM has the ability to back down.

I honestly don't see how that can happen. Likeliest option now is a second Scottish referendum on independence, one that ends in Yes, and the UK splitting up with the scots remaining in the EU. There is no politician now alive with the credibility to do anything else.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Troubling? Want to see what's actually "troubling"? The wealthy minority was screwing with the bookies to influence the vote, skewing the odds with large bets despite the polls showing a slim Leave advantage. I guess that's okay, though, because it's fine when the 1% manipulate the system for their own gain, just so long as you like the results. The hypocrisy is galling.

Something Strange Emerges When Looking Behind The "Brexit" Bookie Odds | Zero Hedge
Who said it was OK? Also, beware that source.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
No one who voted to stay decided to Google the consequences afterwards?

WaPo gets a yellow card for shitty statistical analysis.
It is more than a little troubling that the number of searches for what would happen in case of an EU exit goes up after the result, and goes up that much. Personally I check the options before making a decision.

It appears that a significant minority, at least, voted Leave as a protest against Cameron, and didn't really think it would happen.
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Jun 24, 2016, 06:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
There's a huge difference here. This time the despots were denied
Right. You do know who Nigel Farage is, right?
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Hawkeye_a
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Jun 24, 2016, 08:19 PM
 
@Waragainstsleep
You're incapable of having a rational discussion, and when you can't come up with any facts you resort to the standard "racist"/"bigot"/"homophobe" name-calling BS. You come off as a whiny 15-year old, who resorts to "social media" for opinions from celebrities about politics and economics. (Sort of like asking your accountant or local MP what music or movies they like).

The side of the vote you advocate LOST in a democratic referendum, and none of your natural God-given rights were voted away from you. And you're response is to try and claim intellectual superiority(even though you come off as completely emotional and irrational) over the majority of your fellow citizens. Really mature /s

If you are are so emotionally underdeveloped and you feel the need to lash out in such a way, I suggest you move to where you *feel* you belong with your delusional "equals", and be happy.

Cheers
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Jun 25, 2016 at 02:19 AM. )
     
turtle777
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Jun 24, 2016, 08:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
If I had been a German citizen voting against Adolf in the thirties I'd have been a sore loser too in your book.
Finally. We needed Godwin's law invoked to show how desperate they are with their arguments to condemn the Brexit camp.

Bravo, you win lose.

-t
     
subego
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Jun 25, 2016, 02:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
It is more than a little troubling that the number of searches for what would happen in case of an EU exit goes up after the result, and goes up that much. Personally I check the options before making a decision.
If I supported Remain (i.e. the status quo I've been familiar with), had the proverbial "smart people" tell me I'd be a ****head if I didn't, and had everybody tell me there's minimal chance of the vote going against me, I may not bother to check what would happen if I lost.

If that makes you the better person, then I guess I'm guilty of being the worse one.
     
subego
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Jun 25, 2016, 02:07 AM
 
Gee, this map feels familiar.

     
subego
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Jun 25, 2016, 02:09 AM
 
What's the dangly wang at the bottom left? Gibraltar?
     
subego
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Jun 25, 2016, 03:20 AM
 
     
P
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Jun 25, 2016, 03:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
What's the dangly wang at the bottom left? Gibraltar?
Yes.
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Jun 25, 2016, 05:29 AM
 
Originally Posted by P View Post
Right. You do know who Nigel Farage is, right?
Better than a pig ****er. He's a mouthpiece, he says what Boris and the rest of Leave wants him to say. Johnson will most likely be the new PM, anyway.
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Jun 25, 2016, 05:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Gee, this map feels familiar.

England and Wales voted Leave, while Scotland and N. Ireland (the ones most dependent on handouts, and have seen the fewest migrants) voted stay. Looks about right.
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subego
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Jun 25, 2016, 05:39 AM
 
It's the urban/rural split in England specifically. I feel like they're copping our schtick.
     
Paco500
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Jun 25, 2016, 06:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
England and Wales voted Leave, while Scotland and N. Ireland (the ones most dependent on handouts, and have seen the fewest migrants) voted stay. Looks about right.
Not surprisingly, your interpretation is simplistic and ignorant. Wales and Cornwall have as much or more to lose "handout" wise than Scotland or NI, and have similar immigration numbers, yet they voted leave. And what you say about Scotland is only really true of the Highlands and the Islands, not the borders, which have high levels of immigration. And yet Scotland voted stay top to bottom.

NI is completely different. Yes they benefit from the EU financially, and they have low immigration. But the real story is that a large percentage of the population feel a greater affinity with the Republic of Ireland than the UK and they voted to retain those ties.

London, which has far and away they largest immigrant population, voted overwhelmingly to stay. In fact, immigration is mostly urban throughout the UK, yet the cities voted to remain.

So, by and large, the people who voted to leave because of immigration are affected by the concept of immigration rather than reality.
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 08:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Not surprisingly, your interpretation is simplistic and ignorant...
Aww. Still salty? Scotland voted stay because they want to leave the UK anyway (and didn't before because no one would have been around to pay for their programs), it was an attempt to torpedo Brexit for their own selfish reasons (to **** Britain over), their MPs even admitted it. NI is in the same boat.

There's no other way to say it, England voted Leave with a solid mandate as did Wales. Using London as an example of "migrant acceptance" is hilarious, since it was the migrants themselves, along with a large number of Marxist pro-Unionist kids, who were voting to stay. All the migrants wanted more migrants in the country, you don't say? Well, I'm shocked.

The most pathetic part, however, are the brats claiming that older citizens shouldn't even be allowed a vote. Because, get this, they'll be dead soon anyway. Wow, what a sad excuse for humanity they are. Older citizens have built everything they see, sacrificed and labored for their future, only to have these whingeing ungrateful children (who have far more than any generation before them) spit in their faces. It's a perfect example of why Brexit is so important and how the Regressives only care for democracy when it can serve them and they'll drop it in an instant to do whatever the EU celebrity/elite collective tells them.
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jun 25, 2016, 08:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Obviously we CAN vote on European matters. There IS a European parliament and we elect MEP's to it, they represent our wishes in Europe.
No. You elect representatives who select MPs for whatever arbitrary reasons they choose, and if those MPs don't do what you want? Tough shit. The EU will do whatever they want to your country and you just have to live with it.

Having voted in to a union with many faults but also many good reasons to be part of I was just shocked to wake up to the result. And saddened. My children will no long have the right to live and work in Europe, to move freely over the continent and to benefit from being part of Europe's great culture, they will be tourists passing through.

Obviously the UK as the second largest economy in Europe can stand to go alone, however I can't help but feel that we are in for a period of long slow decline, relegated to a backwater on the world stage, in 20 years time life here for the average person will be harder than it is now.
Europe's "great culture"? Geez, you've really taken the full dose, haven't you? It's astounding how the media has clouded your mind, told you freedom is exclusion and sovereignty is "toxic nationalism". If you don't see how the wealthy elite from the continent have played you, made you take in more migrants than you can afford, and taken your money only to give you back 70% in value. "Oh no, we can't just walk across borders, we have to show a passport and go through customs!" That's worth an extra 8 Billion pounds /yr, right? I don't even... wow.

I can also see a real danger that in an attempt to keep some kind of economic growth the UK will essentially become a giant tax haven. Great for the financial elite but the ruination of the rest of the country.
You've been controlled by the EU elite for a long time already, it's time to take your country back and stand on your own again. This isn't the Star Trek universe, there is no great future in being controlled by a foreign committee that will only do what most benefits them. I like Gene Roddenberry's shows as much as the next person, but it's only fiction, a huge single gov't for all of humanity isn't progress, it's tyranny.

The whole referendum was just to appease Cameron's right wing in the run up to the last election. He has traded our future for an extra year as PM. We may well loose Scotland as well, Northern Ireland has mentioned the possibility of reunification and to add insult to injury Spain has asked if we would mind leaving Gibraltar behind on the way out, although why we still have it is a mystery to me.
Oh yeah, obviously, like there haven't already been >100 petitions in the last decade for just this thing? As if it didn't go through the legal democratic process and didn't pass on its own? As if the views of the majority of your own countrymen doesn't mean shit, so long as you get to go to Paris without a passport, ignoring that giving your money to the EU has never netted you a single pound in gain, only "priceless multiculturalism" that has increased your violent crime rate by double digits. Yeah, what a great benefit for you and yours, no doubt.

Both my daughters feel that the older generation has betrayed them, as do most of the students I know.
Because they've never worked for a living and have no respect for what previous generations have sacrificed for them. What was the point in fighting Germany in 2 great wars only to have the exact same financial forces bring you to heel and strip your liberties, democracy, and identity now?

All in all it's been quite a day.
In that we agree.
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Paco500
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Jun 25, 2016, 08:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Crazed, frothing, ignorant nonsense.
Calm down dear.

Ok, so which theory are you going with? The factually unsupported one that Scotland and NI voted stay because they got all the goodies and no immigrants or the bizarre theory that buy voting 'remain' it would contribute to a 'leave' victory that they actually wanted so they could split from the UK?

Maybe I'm not getting it- can you further explain the logic on that last one? I just don't see it.
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Jun 25, 2016, 10:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Calm down dear.
Tell that to the spoiled brats who have never done anything, yet want to disenfranchise the people who have provided everything they have, dear.

Ok, so which theory are you going with? The factually unsupported one that Scotland and NI voted stay because they got all the goodies and no immigrants or the bizarre theory that buy voting 'remain' it would contribute to a 'leave' victory that they actually wanted so they could split from the UK?
What... the... ****? Your reading comprehension is abysmal, go back and try again.

Maybe I'm not getting it- can you further explain the logic on that last one? I just don't see it.
Why should I bother, it's not like you're going to break from the collective's narrative. Is it?
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Jun 25, 2016, 11:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
@Waragainstsleep
You're incapable of having a rational discussion, and when you can't come up with any facts you resort to the standard "racist"/"bigot"/"homophobe" name-calling BS.
Don't like being called a spade, don't be a spade. Or do spadey things and then try to pretend you did them for spoony reasons.


Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
You come off as a whiny 15-year old, who resorts to "social media" for opinions from celebrities about politics and economics. (Sort of like asking your accountant or local MP what music or movies they like).
I don't know where you're getting celebrity quotes or social media from. I guess your approach of making up facts is somehow more credible?

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
The side of the vote you advocate LOST in a democratic referendum, and none of your natural God-given rights were voted away from you.
None of my rights are god-given.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
And you're response is to try and claim intellectual superiority(even though you come off as completely emotional and irrational) over the majority of your fellow citizens. Really mature /s
I listened to people either admit or demonstrate that they had no idea what they were talking about. If the intellectually superior shoe fits....
You don't even have to be superior, a little diligence was sufficient to see who was telling the truth and who was lying. It usually is.
I'm guessing the irrational bit is because you disagree with me.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
If you are are so emotionally underdeveloped and you feel the need to lash out in such a way, I suggest you move to where you *feel* you belong with your delusional "equals", and be happy.
Given you sit on a side of the fence that regularly fumes at acts of tolerance, human decency and sharing, you can imagine the esteem in which I hold your opinion on being emotional. That said, I'm frustrated and annoyed because I think my country has made an awful decision. Its an opinion I can back up with data and reasoning that is far more convincing than any justifications for the 8 years of unfettered rage about the colour of your current president, or the 25 years of bile that has already been spewed at (hopefully) your next one.
I'm not going to apologise for caring.
Calling ignorant people ignorant is hardly lashing out. But I don't need your permission to be pissed off.
You're welcome to sling your own hook.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 11:53 AM
 
The vote speaks for itself, your outrage/dissatisfaction is your own problem. And i can chose to ignore your silly, rude, elitist and inconsequential tirades. "Cheerio"

I really wonder if Scotland would vote to leave the UK now. That would be a double whammy for them in terms of stability, and then if they do succeed are go for EU membership, that would be a triple whammy for them and a high level of flux in laws/regulations/etc, over 3-5 years.

I think Scotland has stronger ties with the UK than with the EU (including the EU subsidies, and investment/industry, which i suspect is why they wanted to "remain"). I don't think they would choose to leave the UK at this point. It seems like they have a referendum on the issue every few years.... kinda expensive.

On another note, here's something to ponder (and i say this as a non white person)...
Was Gandhi and his movement in India anti-immigrant, racist and nationalistic?

Cheers
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 12:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Rage! Anger! The righteous fury of the ignorant!
Here is what is puzzling. Are you so wrong about things because you are trapped in your InfoWars opinion bubble that you are wilfully ignorant of reality, or do you actually have access to the facts but you just aren't clever enough to understand them?

I'm not going to try and convince you of anything, because you are either so blinded by ideological outrage or just a bit too dumb to get it, but I will point out the gigantic hole in what could only passingly be classified as your 'logic' for the edification of the rest of the board.

You claim (with your own signature brand of frothy-mouthed nonsense):
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Scotland voted stay because they want to leave the UK anyway (and didn't before because no one would have been around to pay for their programs), it was an attempt to torpedo Brexit for their own selfish reasons (to **** Britain over), their MPs even admitted it. NI is in the same boat.
There are a number of reasons this is so head-shakingly stupid.

1. In the Scottish referendum, the SNP was desperate to assure the Scottish people that they would be able to join the EU if they split. One of the few genuinely effective arguments the Unionists had was that if Scotland was able to join the EU at all (which was an unknown because of the stated position of Spain), it would take years. The Scottish love the EU- the fear of losing helped preserve the Union.

2. Now that the UK has voted to leave the EU, there has been a material change in the constitutional framework which provides a very strong justification for holding a second Scottish referendum, one that if it was held today, the SNP would almost certainly win.

Your blindingly moronic claim that Scots voted to remain because they wanted to leave the UK is recognisable as laughable by anyone with even a modicum of understanding of the issues. Any Scot whose primary motivation was to break up the UK should have voted leave.

Perhaps you should do yourself and the rest of us a favour and take the advice you give non-Americans when they have opinions on the gun issue and just stay out of the discussion. You have nothing of value or interest to contribute.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Jun 25, 2016, 12:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
No. You elect representatives who select MPs for whatever arbitrary reasons they choose, and if those MPs don't do what you want? Tough shit. The EU will do whatever they want to your country and you just have to live with it.
No, we elect MEPs. The organisation is overcomplicated and i would prefer to overhaul it. I'm quite certain there is massive space for streamlining it, but its not as anti-democratic as the leavers made out it was. Very little happens without some input or approval from the elected MEPs in the European Parliament.



Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Europe's "great culture"? Geez, you've really taken the full dose, haven't you?
Even you can't be so obtuse as to deny the rich cultural history of Europe.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
It's astounding how the media has clouded your mind, told you freedom is exclusion and sovereignty is "toxic nationalism".
The Sovereignty argument is just smokescreen of legitimacy to hide the toxic nationalism. Its no wonder you would dismiss it out of hand though.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
If you don't see how the wealthy elite from the continent have played you, made you take in more migrants than you can afford, and taken your money only to give you back 70% in value. "Oh no, we can't just walk across borders, we have to show a passport and go through customs!" That's worth an extra 8 Billion pounds /yr, right? I don't even... wow.
The difference between our EU contributions and what we get back is the same as the cost of access to the single market. A cost we will still be paying when we leave.
And the people got played by a wealthy elite were the working classes who just voted away the protections of their working rights at the behest of a gang of lying public schoolboys who really have never worked a day in their lives.


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
You've been controlled by the EU elite for a long time already, it's time to take your country back and stand on your own again. This isn't the Star Trek universe, there is no great future in being controlled by a foreign committee that will only do what most benefits them. I like Gene Roddenberry's shows as much as the next person, but it's only fiction, a huge single gov't for all of humanity isn't progress, it's tyranny.
People like you are the only reason this will never happen. I'm sure you're proud of that, but you shouldn't be.



Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Because they've never worked for a living and have no respect for what previous generations have sacrificed for them. What was the point in fighting Germany in 2 great wars only to have the exact same financial forces bring you to heel and strip your liberties, democracy, and identity now? .

Actually while the under 50s were strongly in favour of remaining, the very oldest voters were also strongly in the remain camp. Those are the people who actually fought or lived during WW2 and for me this is one of the most telling statistics of of all.
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Jun 25, 2016, 12:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
I really wonder if Scotland would vote to leave the UK now. That would be a double whammy for them in terms of stability, and then if they do succeed are go for EU membership, that would be a triple whammy for them and a high level of flux in laws/regulations/etc, over 3-5 years.

I think Scotland has stronger ties with the UK than with the EU (including the EU subsidies, and investment/industry, which i suspect is why they wanted to "remain"). I don't think they would choose to leave the UK at this point. It seems like they have a referendum on the issue every few years.... kinda expensive.
They will very likely leave the UK now.

Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
On another note, here's something to ponder (and i say this as a non white person)...
Was Gandhi and his movement in India anti-immigrant, racist and nationalistic?

Cheers
Well we were basically stealing all their stuff so if it was racist, it was probably justified. Is it racist to hate a race who is oppressing you?
Its a million miles away from our EU membership situation anyway.
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Jun 25, 2016, 12:26 PM
 
I wonder how long this divorce will take. Cant believe that the UK & EU have been intertwined since before Maggie was PM.

Oh, and if i could vote in the UK, i would definitely pick Daniel Hannan for PM (I'd be lying if i said it had nothing to do with his oratory skills )
( Last edited by Hawkeye_a; Jun 25, 2016 at 12:52 PM. )
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 12:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Even you can't be so obtuse as to deny the rich cultural history of Europe.
I assume he's saying countries in Europe have a rich cultural history. Europe doesn't have one.
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Here is what is puzzling... Blah. Blah. Blah.
As usual, I don't give a damn what you think anymore on the topic. Enjoy your Brexit. Don't just sit around and bitch, try to do something productive.
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Jun 25, 2016, 12:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
As usual, I don't give a damn what you think anymore on the topic. Enjoy your Brexit. Don't just sit around and bitch, try to do something productive.
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 01:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
No, we elect MEPs. The organisation is overcomplicated and i would prefer to overhaul it. I'm quite certain there is massive space for streamlining it, but its not as anti-democratic as the leavers made out it was. Very little happens without some input or approval from the elected MEPs in the European Parliament.
It didn't work the way you thought it did.

Even you can't be so obtuse as to deny the rich cultural history of Europe.
No more than you deny your own within the UK. Oh wait, that's too "nationalistic" for you. Their history is theirs, not yours. Don't you lot call that "cultural appropriation" or something like that? Nothing is stopping you from visiting Europe, passports are easy.

The Sovereignty argument is just smokescreen of legitimacy to hide the toxic nationalism. Its no wonder you would dismiss it out of hand though.
That's even more bullshit from the Regressives, straight from the hair-brained idiots in social "sciences" depts. What's "toxic" is denying that your own country has worth and you shouldn't stand up for your nation.

The difference between our EU contributions and what we get back is the same as the cost of access to the single market. A cost we will still be paying when we leave. And the people got played by a wealthy elite were the working classes who just voted away the protections of their working rights at the behest of a gang of lying public schoolboys who really have never worked a day in their lives.
Oh no! They'll refuse to trade with you?!! That's a load of shit, right there. Must be why the Swiss and Norwegians are struggling. Right? You were being played for decades by the EU collective, telling you you're nothing without them, while you toil away while propping them up. You had no "protections", you had masters who frequently did what they wanted, often tanking your own industries, at your expense. What happened to your massive fishing fleets? Your GDP from exports that dropped by 1/3rd over the last decade? Well?

People like you are the only reason this will never happen. I'm sure you're proud of that, but you shouldn't be.
Indeed I certainly am, because no central gov't should ever control everyone. That's the very definition of tyranny and will directly lead to the death of the "multiculturalism" you claim to love so much. "Vanilla for everyone! What? You like chocolate? **** you!"

Actually while the under 50s were strongly in favour of remaining, the very oldest voters were also strongly in the remain camp. Those are the people who actually fought or lived during WW2 and for me this is one of the most telling statistics of of all.
Utter garbage. The only group "strongly" in the Remain camp were the <25 voters:


How Brexit vote broke down – POLITICO

Why even watch the BBC if they're going to fear-monger and lie to your face? It's absurd.
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Paco500
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Jun 25, 2016, 01:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I assume he's saying countries in Europe have a rich cultural history. Europe doesn't have one.
Which countries are you talking about? Most countries in Europe (as they exist today) aren't as old a the USA.

Europe certainly does have a cultural history.
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 01:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
As usual, I don't give a damn what you think anymore on the topic. Enjoy your Brexit. Don't just sit around and bitch, try to do something productive.
Ahh, the last refuge of the moron. "I have no argument so I don't care what you think!"
     
subego
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Jun 25, 2016, 01:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Paco500 View Post
Which countries are you talking about? Most countries in Europe (as they exist today) aren't as old a the USA.

Europe certainly does have a cultural history.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but hasn't most of that history been one of distrust, hatred, and slaughter? I'm not being cheeky when I say this was the status quo from before Christ to, oh... 1945?

Even if any given country is young, didn't most of them congeal around specific ethnic and linguistic groupings? Are not the cultural histories of these ethnic groups claimed by the countries these ethnic groups inhabit, even if the country itself is fairly young?
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 01:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Because they've never worked for a living and have no respect for what previous generations have sacrificed for them. What was the point in fighting Germany in 2 great wars only to have the exact same financial forces bring you to heel and strip your liberties, democracy, and identity now?
I'm intrigued where your knowledge of my daughter working and financial life comes from. Also f**k you.
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Jun 25, 2016, 01:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
No more than you deny your own within the UK. Oh wait, that's too "nationalistic" for you. Their history is theirs, not yours. Don't you lot call that "cultural appropriation" or something like that? Nothing is stopping you from visiting Europe, passports are easy.
Our histories have been entwined for millennia. We've fought with and against each other back and forth many times over. History didn't start 200 years ago.
I think "cultural appropriation" is when white Americans get dreadlocks or listen to rap music.
Visiting Europe is less convenient and more expensive.


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That's even more bullshit from the Regressives, straight from the hair-brained idiots in social "sciences" depts. What's "toxic" is denying that your own country has worth and you shouldn't stand up for your nation.
Blah blah anyone who doesn't agree with me is regressive. There is nothing progressive about leaving the EU.
There is no need to deny our worth in order to favour EU membership. Our worth is still greater within Europe though. Its only small minded people who feel the EU is in any way oppressive.



Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Oh no! They'll refuse to trade with you?!! That's a load of shit, right there. Must be why the Swiss and Norwegians are struggling. Right? You were being played for decades by the EU collective, telling you you're nothing without them, while you toil away while propping them up. You had no "protections", you had masters who frequently did what they wanted, often tanking your own industries, at your expense. What happened to your massive fishing fleets? Your GDP from exports that dropped by 1/3rd over the last decade? Well?
Did I say they'd refuse to trade with us? No. Arguing with yourself? I said there was a cost to be in the single market, which there is. Norway and Switzerland have to pay it too. Didn't you just say we hadn't made a penny from trading with Europe though? You're all over the place. Get it together.
The EU don't tell us any such thing about us being nothing without them. I for one have never read a single newsletter from the EU telling me anything at all. Maybe Paco is right that you've been listening to Jonesey again.
I'm no expert on fishing. I know some restrictions were made for environmental reasons and I know the Spanish and French were notorious for ignoring those restrictions. Its not something thats been in the news recently. I do know that not all fishermen are anti-EU, and I know that after Michael Gove of the leave campaign aired a mini-documentary about how the EU had screwed his family fishing firm, his Dad (who actually ran it) came out and said that was bollocks. Another lie from the leave campaign.

Dropping exports is a great point though. The old farts who just voted us out are all harking back to a time when we had a huge manufacturing industry because once upon a time it was difficult and not many other countries could do what do. Nowadays they can all do it cheaper. Same goes for our coal and steel industries. The working classes are furious that we bailed out the bankers and won't save a completely unviable steel industry. They think the government should piss money away paying ten times market rate for steel just to employ an extra thousand Welshmen. Ridiculous. They are out of touch with reality and it has caused them to make a huge mistake.


Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Indeed I certainly am, because no central gov't should ever control everyone. That's the very definition of tyranny and will directly lead to the death of the "multiculturalism" you claim to love so much. "Vanilla for everyone! What? You like chocolate? **** you!"
Maybe time for you to move to Texas in time for Texit then.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Utter garbage. The only group "strongly" in the Remain camp were the <25 voters:


How Brexit vote broke down – POLITICO

Why even watch the BBC if they're going to fear-monger and lie to your face? It's absurd.
I did indeed hear it on the BBC, but they stressed it was an even higher age bracket than this graph. I can't find anywhere that has that data though.
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Jun 25, 2016, 01:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Europe's "great culture"? Geez, you've really taken the full dose, haven't you? .
hahahha I can see why the idea of culture may confuse you and lead to you being unable to see it. Being as you come from a place that thinks that cuisine is spreading yellow goo over everything and slapping a bun around it, fashion is wearing your John Deer cap on backwards and and that took until the mid 1960s to decide that legally some people were the same as other people.

Maybe you should look in your much vaunted garage. If it look like art on wheels, it's European.
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Jun 25, 2016, 01:58 PM
 
"A nation, is a partnership between the people who have died, the people who are alive now, and the people who haven't yet been born.
Being a nation, means that we're not just a random set of individuals born to a different random set of individuals.
It imposes on us a duty to keep in tact the freedoms we were lucky enough to inherit from our parents and pass them on securely to the next generation"
-Edmund Burke (via Daniel Hannan)

This man for the next Prime Minister of the UK....
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 02:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Not to put too fine a point on it, but hasn't most of that history been one of distrust, hatred, and slaughter? I'm not being cheeky when I say this was the status quo from before Christ to, oh... 1945?

Even if any given country is young, didn't most of them congeal around specific ethnic and linguistic groupings? Are not the cultural histories of these ethnic groups claimed by the countries these ethnic groups inhabit, even if the country itself is fairly young?
Its not that simple.

Britain and France have been at war numerous times, but Britain helped rescue French aristocrats during the French revolution and if you look in your history books, you'll see there was another war of particular note that started in 1914.

Thats just two countries as example.
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Jun 25, 2016, 02:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
hahahha I can see why the idea of culture may confuse you and lead to you being unable to see it. Being as you come from a place that thinks that cuisine is spreading yellow goo over everything and slapping a bun around it, fashion is wearing your John Deer cap on backwards and and that took until the mid 1960s to decide that legally some people were the same as other people.

Maybe you should look in your much vaunted garage. If it look like art on wheels, it's European.
Big talk from a person who would probably be speaking German or Russian today, had it not been for the people you are so obviously bigoted towards.
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 02:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Big talk from a person who would probably be speaking German or Russian today, had it not been for the people you are so obviously bigoted towards.
I don't think he or anyone else every accused we Americans of not being good at killing people with guns.
     
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Jun 25, 2016, 02:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hawkeye_a View Post
Big talk from a person who would probably be speaking German or Russian today, had it not been for the people you are so obviously bigoted towards.
Oh so you can call someone a bigot? Its not BS name-calling when you do it? Whiny teenager?

How about hypocrite? Can I call you one of those?
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