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Evolution (Page 2)
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besson3c  (op)
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Oct 17, 2017, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Nope. It has to do with the data that gets input into the models. The models are only as good as the data that goes in.

I honestly can't decide if this is really just a religious issue you are not being truthful to us or yourself about, or if you really think you know better than the vast majority of the world's scientists. You don't seem to be that arrogant, so I have to think this is a religious issue with you.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Oct 17, 2017, 04:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I honestly can't decide if this is really just a religious issue you are not being truthful to us or yourself about, or if you really think you know better than the vast majority of the world's scientists. You don't seem to be that arrogant, so I have to think this is a religious issue with you.
Its partisan, not religious.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Laminar
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Oct 18, 2017, 09:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Nope. It has to do with the data that gets input into the models. The models are only as good as the data that goes in.
And in light of overwhelming data in supporting the idea of AGW, you're choosing to look only at a few articles making claims about a few potentially tampered data sets. You're not a climate scientist, you don't know anything about the data itself, but there's a little tiny thread for you to grab onto that lets you believe what you want to believe, so you grab that thread and hold on for dear life. You're not looking for the truth. You're not approaching the situation from a neutral position, taking all sides and positions into consideration, applying a thorough knowledge and education to the situation, and coming to a conclusion. You're so insistent on toeing the party line that you're putting it above even your religion.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Oct 18, 2017, 09:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
And in light of overwhelming data in supporting the idea of AGW, you're choosing to look only at a few articles making claims about a few potentially tampered data sets. You're not a climate scientist, you don't know anything about the data itself, but there's a little tiny thread for you to grab onto that lets you believe what you want to believe, so you grab that thread and hold on for dear life. You're not looking for the truth. You're not approaching the situation from a neutral position, taking all sides and positions into consideration, applying a thorough knowledge and education to the situation, and coming to a conclusion. You're so insistent on toeing the party line that you're putting it above even your religion.
Exactly, and Chongo, I want to understand what makes you really want to hold onto that tiny thread if not something involving your religion? As Laminar pointed out, it does conflict with your religion in so far as the pope is concerned, but I can't help thinking that there is still something religious based in this thread of yours. It's the only real explanation I have, aside from you being an incredibly arrogant person which you definitely don't seem to be.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 18, 2017, 12:10 PM
 
I feel bad for chongo. Without shaddim disrupting the conversation he's getting the undivided attention of the forum liberals.
     
Laminar
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Oct 18, 2017, 12:40 PM
 
     
Chongo
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Oct 18, 2017, 01:11 PM
 
As I have said before, when I was in grade school in the 60’s and 70’s we were being taught the next ice age was on the way.

I’m surprised Harper’s has this archived article from 1958 by Betty Friedan of all people.

https://harpers.org/archive/1958/09/the-coming-ice-age/
THIS is the story of two scientists, who started five years ago — with a single radiocarbon clue from the ocean bottom and a wild hunch — to track down one of the earth’s great unsolved mysteries: What caused the ancient ice ages? Their search led over many continents and seas, to drowned rivers and abandoned mountain caves, into far-removed branches of science. It took them down through recorded history, from the stone tablets of primitive man to contemporary newspaper headlines.

These two serious, careful scientists — geophysicist Maurice Ewing, director of Columbia University’s Lamont Geological Observatory, and geologist-meteorologist William Donn believe they have finally found the explanation for the giant glaciers, which four times during the past million years have advanced and retreated over the earth. If they are right, the world is now heading into another Ice Age. It will come not as sudden catastrophe, but as the inevitable culmination of a process that has already begun in northern oceans.
PDF scan of the magazine.
http://archive.harpers.org/1958/09/p...tGMTCpuIDjo%3D
Part of what we were being taught.
https://www.amnh.org/explore/science...of-an-ice-age/
Milankovitch Cycles
The effort to explain how glaciers retreat and advance began decades before scientists studied these cores, however. The Indian Ocean work simply confirmed long-debated speculation that astronomical cycles may have timed the Pleistocene’s glaciation.

Cyclical changes in the way Earth orbits the Sun and spins in space were worked out by Serbian mathematician Milutin Milankovitch in the early 20th century, based on calculations made by two earlier scientists. Three changes were scrutinized:

Orbit: Earth orbits the Sun in a slightly elliptical path. Sometimes, the orbit is more elliptical than at other times. The shape of the orbit changes the maximum distance of Earth from the Sun, and with it the amount of solar radiation Earth receives. The transition from “most circular” to “most elliptical” and back again takes about 96,000 years.
Tilt: The tilt of Earth’s axis of rotation also varies. It shifts between 21.5 and 24.5 degrees in a cycle of 41,000 years. The tilt affects where the globe is receiving the most solar radiation. During times of more tilt, higher latitudes receive more sunlight.
Precession: Earth doesn’t rotate perfectly around its axis. Instead, it wobbles like a top, a motion called precession. Precession influences the amount of solar radiation striking a given location for a given season. This causes the difference of temperature between seasons to be either large or small. For example, sometimes winters will be extra frigid and summers extra warm (large difference). Other times, mild winters are followed by cool summers (small difference). Precession operates on a 21,000-year cycle.
These guys are all dead so they have no validity today.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 18, 2017, 01:18 PM
 
I feel like this was already debunked in a different thread
     
Chongo
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Oct 18, 2017, 01:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I feel like this was already debunked in a different thread
My reply was that I can’t change the fact that is the theory we were being taught.
     
Chongo
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Oct 18, 2017, 02:20 PM
 
Some sciency stuff about God and aliens.
( Last edited by Chongo; Oct 18, 2017 at 02:35 PM. )
     
Laminar
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Oct 18, 2017, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
As I have said before, when I was in grade school in the 60’s and 70’s we were being taught the next ice age was on the way.
Two things. First, can you describe for the process of how science works. Like, what's the scientific method? And specifically in the area of climate science - where do the predictions come from?

Second, how closely do you believe elementary school textbooks follow cutting edge scientific findings and models? How accurate do you believe a science, history, or social studies textbook from 1965 was? How relevent do you believe those textbooks would be to things that have happened in the past 40 years?
     
Laminar
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Oct 18, 2017, 02:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Some sciency stuff about God and aliens.
You already posted that one elsewhere, and no one watched it then either. It'd be much more useful if you were able to summarize the main points as you understand them. Posting YouTube videos does nothing to further conversation, and you seem to do it a lot.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 18, 2017, 02:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
My reply was that I can’t change the fact that is the theory we were being taught.
You can change the fact that you act like it was the gospel back then.
     
Chongo
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Oct 18, 2017, 02:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
You can change the fact that you act like it was the gospel back then.
You mean the stuff I was taught at Madison #2 and Camelback High was not true? What else did they lie to me about? Time to throw out my warm fuzzy awards.
     
Chongo
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Oct 18, 2017, 03:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Two things. First, can you describe for the process of how science works. Like, what's the scientific method? And specifically in the area of climate science - where do the predictions come from?

Second, how closely do you believe elementary school textbooks follow cutting edge scientific findings and models? How accurate do you believe a science, history, or social studies textbook from 1965 was? How relevent do you believe those textbooks would be to things that have happened in the past 40 years?
Sorry, the scientific method was developed by long dead Catholics so it can’t be used.

I work in the semiconductor industry, going on 35 years now. I’m a senior associate and have been a group leader and process technician. I do sciency stuff on a daily basis. I have been involved in doing FMEA’s and 8D’s.
     
Chongo
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Oct 18, 2017, 03:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You already posted that one elsewhere, and no one watched it then either. It'd be much more useful if you were able to summarize the main points as you understand them. Posting YouTube videos does nothing to further conversation, and you seem to do it a lot.
It is about carl Sagan’s conditions for life going from two conditions to over one hundred. Sagan is dead anyway.
     
The Final Dakar
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Oct 18, 2017, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
You mean the stuff I was taught at Madison #2 and Camelback High was not true? What else did they lie to me about? Time to throw out my warm fuzzy awards.
Being taught one wrong thing and acting like it invalidates your entire education is the same problem with your views on global warming.

Did you stop believing anything your parents said after they told you one wrong thing?
     
Laminar
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Oct 18, 2017, 03:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Sorry, the scientific method was developed by long dead Catholics so it can’t be used.

I work in the semiconductor industry, going on 35 years now. I’m a senior associate and have been a group leader and process technician. I do sciency stuff on a daily basis. I have been involved in doing FMEA’s and 8D’s.
You didn't answer my questions.
     
Chongo
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Oct 18, 2017, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
You didn't answer my questions.
I answered the first one.
Second, how closely do you believe elementary school textbooks follow cutting edge scientific findings and models? How accurate do you believe a science, history, or social studies textbook from 1965 was? How relevent do you believe those textbooks would be to things that have happened in the past 40 years?
They had to be or we would have never landed on the moon, unless you think the moon landing was faked. Is history and social studies even taught today? The history and social studies books were actual history and social studies books. We even learned about George Washington Carver, Harriet Tubman, and Simon Bolivar. They probably would not be relevant to you because they taught actual history and about the other countries.
     
reader50
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Oct 18, 2017, 04:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
As I have said before, when I was in grade school in the 60’s and 70’s we were being taught the next ice age was on the way.

I’m surprised Harper’s has this archived article from 1958 by Betty Friedan of all people.

https://harpers.org/archive/1958/09/the-coming-ice-age/


PDF scan of the magazine.
http://archive.harpers.org/1958/09/p...tGMTCpuIDjo%3D
Part of what we were being taught.
https://www.amnh.org/explore/science...of-an-ice-age/


These guys are all dead so they have no validity today.
I remember the In Search Of program advising of a coming ice age. The Milankovitch Cycles are real, and we should be due for another ice age based on them. And the 1950s were much colder than winters today.

But they didn't take enough into account. In particular, ice advance is sensitive to summer temperatures, not winter temps. So long as winters get cold enough to snow, what matters is if the summer is hot enough to melt away everything that fell. If summers are mild, not all the snow gets melted, and the next winter effectively gets a head start. A succession of mild summers does the opposite of what we're seeing today, with glaciers and snowlines advancing each year.

Our record summers today melt away more than what falls each winter. Glaciers retreat, snow lines keep receding to higher elevations. It sucks, unless you own property at high elevations. Especially if your grandad bought a ton of that property dirt cheap after losing a bet.
     
The Final Shortcut
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Oct 18, 2017, 10:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I remember the In Search Of program advising of a coming ice age. The Milankovitch Cycles are real, and we should be due for another ice age based on them. And the 1950s were much colder than winters today.
Yup. All of this has already been covered. No amount of information and logic will impact Chongo’s position on this particular issue.
     
besson3c  (op)
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Oct 18, 2017, 10:48 PM
 
But what about the sun spots?

Volcanoes?

Polar vortexes?
     
Chongo
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Oct 18, 2017, 11:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
But what about the sun spots?

Volcanoes?

Polar vortexes?
You mean these kind?
     
BadKosh
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Oct 19, 2017, 10:48 AM
 
What ever happened to Erich von Däniken???
     
Chongo
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Oct 19, 2017, 11:28 AM
 
He was captured by Xenu
     
Laminar
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Oct 19, 2017, 11:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I answered the first one.
And specifically in the area of climate science - where do the predictions come from?
     
 
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