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What do you make of the recent furor over 'civility'?
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The Final Dakar
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Jun 25, 2018, 06:23 PM
 
Genuine of manufactured? Accurate or overrated?

To me it reeks of hypocrisy – this notion of civility is just a different name for the concept of political correctness. I think the decline among the regular masses is overblown and I'd also point out the person who is most fostering it got elected President while displaying a complete lack of it.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 25, 2018, 11:46 PM
 
https://twitter.com/CNNnewsroom/stat...24872633946113
"The Anti-War movement in Vietnam ... The Civil Rights movement ... both of those were much more civil in tone": @David_Gergen on the 'uncivil discourse' of politics in 2018 compared to other historical divides
     
BadKosh
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Jun 26, 2018, 01:56 PM
 
Still an echo chamber.
     
Laminar
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Jun 26, 2018, 02:47 PM
 
BadKosh, which news sources do you consume and/or communities do you frequent that could also be considered "echo chambers?"
     
subego
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Jun 26, 2018, 03:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Genuine of manufactured? Accurate or overrated?

To me it reeks of hypocrisy – this notion of civility is just a different name for the concept of political correctness. I think the decline among the regular masses is overblown and I'd also point out the person who is most fostering it got elected President while displaying a complete lack of it.
In terms of civility, I expect far more from Democrats than I do Republicans.

Civility is something of a matter of convenience for Republicans, while with the Democrats it’s supposed to be part of the core philosophy.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 26, 2018, 04:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
In terms of civility, I expect far more from Democrats than I do Republicans.

Civility is something of a matter of convenience for Republicans, while with the Democrats it’s supposed to be part of the core philosophy.
Is it unreasonable for Democrats to drop civility towards those that show them little to none?
     
subego
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Jun 26, 2018, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is it unreasonable for Democrats to drop civility towards those that show them little to none?
This is a highly scenario dependent question, no?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 26, 2018, 05:09 PM
 
Let me start over. Is the right wing furor over civility Genuine of manufactured? Accurate or overrated?
     
subego
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Jun 26, 2018, 05:37 PM
 
Going back to my first assertion, as a group for whom civility is generally a matter of convenience, Republicans/conservatives/the right are in a bad position to point fingers.

This is a separate question from whether Democrats/liberals/the left have done a good job of sticking to their principles lately, of which civility is one.
     
Laminar
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Jun 26, 2018, 05:49 PM
 
https://www.africa.upenn.edu/Article...irmingham.html

I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
There's plenty more in his letter that's worth reading, but calls for "civility" are nothing new, and are simply calls made by those unaffected by existing injustices to maintain the status quo, because challenging the status quo would bring about discomfort.

On whether or not it's okay for (in this example) a Democrat to drop civility when responding to uncivil words or actions of a Republican, I'd fall back on the saying, "Never Wrestle with a Pig. You Both Get Dirty and the Pig Likes It." The current state of Republicanism (Trumpism?) requires adopting the belief that "all politicians are dirty, at least my dirty politicians are fighting for my beliefs." Every time Democrat stoops down into being a piece of shit, it reinforces the idea that nobody is truly good, so there's no point in hoping for or voting for actually good people. It's how Republicans can be totally up in arms about Al Franken or Weinstein but totally okay with Roy Moore or Trump.
     
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Jun 26, 2018, 05:53 PM
 
That... sounds like a call for civility.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 26, 2018, 06:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Going back to my first assertion, as a group for whom civility is generally a matter of convenience, Republicans/conservatives/the right are in a bad position to point fingers.

This is a separate question from whether Democrats/liberals/the left have done a good job of sticking to their principles lately, of which civility is one.
I don't understand why you're not answering the question.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 26, 2018, 07:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
On whether or not it's okay for (in this example) a Democrat to drop civility when responding to uncivil words or actions of a Republican, I'd fall back on the saying, "Never Wrestle with a Pig. You Both Get Dirty and the Pig Likes It." The current state of Republicanism (Trumpism?) requires adopting the belief that "all politicians are dirty, at least my dirty politicians are fighting for my beliefs." Every time Democrat stoops down into being a piece of shit, it reinforces the idea that nobody is truly good, so there's no point in hoping for or voting for actually good people. It's how Republicans can be totally up in arms about Al Franken or Weinstein but totally okay with Roy Moore or Trump.
Regarding the bolded, I think that may be true for the politically apathetic. But I those people are lost cause. I don't think they follow politics nor have strong convictions.

I'd also add that democrats are constantly seen as (and are to some degree) terrible politicians. Doesn't some part of that have to be their inclination towards good faith and civility?

Example: Right now the DCCC wants both sides to pledge not to use hacked materials in campaigning. RCCC isn't really responding. Is it politically wise for the DCCC to adhere to that pledge if the RCCC doesn't?

Also, is Democrats adopting some GOP tactics getting dirty, or bringing a gun to a gun fight?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 26, 2018, 07:15 PM
 
Also, this decries civility as insulating the immoral elements of society, right?
     
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Jun 26, 2018, 08:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I don't understand why you're not answering the question.
I thought I did.

I can give a more complete answer though.

The Republicans/conservatives/right aren’t imagining the Democrats/liberals/left being less civil since Trump got elected, so their claims pass the accuracy test.

Intentional incivility is rarely enjoyed by the target, and it’s not intended to be, so it’s safe to assume they find it genuinely unpleasant.

Importantly, however, they lack the moral authority to complain, because their moral code is ****ing Hammurabi type shit.
     
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Jun 27, 2018, 05:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Doesn't some part of that have to be their inclination towards good faith and civility?
“No.”

- Bernie Sanders
     
Chongo
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Jun 27, 2018, 11:55 AM
 
Rules for Radicals on steroids.
     
Chongo
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Jun 27, 2018, 02:30 PM
 
Looking for the (D) rebuttital ad.
It should get real interesting with Justice Kennedy retiring.
     
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Jun 27, 2018, 02:37 PM
 
“‘Roids” would have been the triple alliteration.
     
Laminar
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Jun 27, 2018, 04:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That... sounds like a call for civility.
If it's coming from a member of a group benefiting from incivility, it doesn't mean as much.

Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Regarding the bolded, I think that may be true for the politically apathetic. But I those people are lost cause. I don't think they follow politics nor have strong convictions.
I wasn't thinking politically apathetic, I was specifically thinking Republicans and how they're veerrrrry quick to point out indiscretions of the other team's members. And how when the indiscretions of their team are brought up, they immediately deflect to (usually irrelevant) indiscretions of the other team. See: Chongo.

As long as there are "bad" Democrats to point to, it's easy for Republicans to feel okay about voting for shitty people. "They're all shitty people, but at least my shitty people don't give out free birth control to sluts."
     
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Jun 27, 2018, 04:10 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
If it's coming from a member of a group benefiting from incivility, it doesn't mean as much.
We are in total agreement.
     
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Jun 28, 2018, 08:08 AM
 
It's all become doublespeak, spun to take advantange of the typical democrat "civil" stance. Complaining about being bullied is bullying. Protesting violence is violent. Attacking Sarah Sanders is anti-feminist.

As it turns out, Joe Biden was refused service, and he didn't whine like a little bitch or incite people to throw chicken shit. The right enjoys being a mob. They are flooding yelp with fake reviews and lashing out at anything with Hen in the name. Sarah used her job twitter to basically SWAT the Red Hen. It's an abuse of power, petty, and childish. When even the President takes to twitter to make up insults (dirty canopies?) and incite trolls, well, do you really feel sorry for poor Sarah? Not at all.

They are shameless, and feel secure in their hate. The only way to fight fire is with fire.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny-n...626-story.html
     
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Jun 28, 2018, 08:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
The only way to fight fire is with fire.
Which is Hammurabi shit.

Don’t become what you hate. Stare into the abyss and it stares into you.

I call for civility because I stand for something different than what the GOP stands for. Stand with me on this.
     
andi*pandi
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Jun 28, 2018, 10:40 AM
 
The meek will inherit the earth is BS.

I don't think we should be writing fake reviews of restaurants or cake shops or posting disgusting fake images like all the Trumpers on yelp, but we do need to speak out and speak up. Actions with integrity.

Chongo, many dems were appalled at Kathy Griffin's shock photo. Were you appalled by all the righties posting Obama lynching photos? All the birthers posting lies?
BadKosh, for all those righties appalled at how Sarah and Melania are picked on by the press, were you appalled when Michelle was called an ape in heels? When Michelle was pilloried for wearing a sleeveless dress? Or even worse, all the righties giggling over calling her a man? All the people cackling over Hillary's cankles? Or did you pile on, teehee?

If you weren't appalled then, don't act all "why can't we be civil" now.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 28, 2018, 10:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I thought I did.

I can give a more complete answer though.

The Republicans/conservatives/right aren’t imagining the Democrats/liberals/left being less civil since Trump got elected, so their claims pass the accuracy test.

Intentional incivility is rarely enjoyed by the target, and it’s not intended to be, so it’s safe to assume they find it genuinely unpleasant.

Importantly, however, they lack the moral authority to complain, because their moral code is ****ing Hammurabi type shit.
So, manufactured but accurate?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 28, 2018, 11:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
“No.”

- Bernie Sanders
I don't follow.
     
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Jun 28, 2018, 03:36 PM
 
Bernie and Chuck were very conciliatory and said the restaurant shouldn't have asked Sarah to leave. Perhaps because they also would like to eat out at restaurants, perhaps being politicians, who knows.
     
subego
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Jun 28, 2018, 05:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
The meek will inherit the earth is BS.
Civility doesn’t preclude confrontation.

Not stooping to the level of your opponent isn’t a sign of submission. It’s a sign of strength.
     
subego
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Jun 28, 2018, 06:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I don't follow.
The Democrats didn’t treat Sanders with good faith. Had they done so, he would have beat Clinton.

He also would have beat Trump.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 28, 2018, 07:29 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
II was specifically thinking Republicans and how they're veerrrrry quick to point out indiscretions of the other team's members. And how when the indiscretions of their team are brought up, they immediately deflect to (usually irrelevant) indiscretions of the other team. See: Chongo.
You're overlooking the obvious: Democratic indiscretion don't really matter because when there is none they get made up! Democrats are sexist for voting against a female nominee. Democrats are racist for voting against a black nominee.

Just because I'm willing to let some 'tough talk' slide doesn't mean I'm endorsing letting Al Franken or Bob Menendez stay in the Senate. Just because SHS called a reporter stupid to his face I don't think reporters should be allowed to do the same to her.

But not serving SHS? Seriously, this is a big deal? Coming from people who are all about being able to discriminate?

I see the actions of the staff as reverse virtue signaling. By kicking her out, they're not signaling to like-minded people. They're signaling to those that support Sanders and her views that they disagree that much. That money isn't worth their morals. Christians, of all people should understand that.

Look, I could be completely misguided, but if you believe norms are eroding or that our policies are becoming malicious instead of punitive, maybe our displeasure needs to be communicated in a tone that will catch some attention. Because civility, it ain't working.
( Last edited by The Final Dakar; Jun 28, 2018 at 07:39 PM. )
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 28, 2018, 07:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
“No.”

- Bernie Sanders
Arguably, Sanders didn't campaign in good faith. He's not a democrat. Why should he expect the DNC to not favor their own party?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 28, 2018, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
As long as there are "bad" Democrats to point to, it's easy for Republicans to feel okay about voting for shitty people. "They're all shitty people, but at least my shitty people don't give out free birth control to sluts."
I'm sorry but I find your political analysis to be misguided. Republicans feel ok voting for shitty people because the alternative is policies they don't like. I, mean, that's politics in general thanks to FPTP.

Take whoever you think most embodies a virtuous democrat and convince me Trump voters would take that over Gorsuch, tax cuts, immigrant deportation, etc.
     
subego
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Jun 29, 2018, 07:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Arguably, Sanders didn't campaign in good faith. He's not a democrat. Why should he expect the DNC to not favor their own party?
C’mon... this is one of the most good faith people in politics.
     
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Jun 29, 2018, 09:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Civility doesn’t preclude confrontation.

Not stooping to the level of your opponent isn’t a sign of submission. It’s a sign of strength.
I think the one aspect that is missing in the whole discussion here is what the power dynamics are: who has more political power, a local restaurant owner or the spokesperson for the President of the United States, who chose to unleash the Twitter hordes on the restaurant?

If a relatively powerless person is “uncivil” (whatever that means for you) to someone in power, I'm uninterested in hearing the complaints from the powerful, privileged person. If a powerful person is uncivil towards someone else with power, that isn't great because they are being bad role models. If a powerful person punches down, hitting someone who is powerless, then this is effed up, this is when we should lament the lack of civility. That's even true if the powerful person was, say, insulted by the powerless person beforehand. You don't punch back because of the immense power differential.

Not serving Steven Miller or Sarah Huckabee-Sanders is nothing like not serving any Trump supporter or blacks or Democrats or gay couples — the comparison is baseless. Steven Miller wasn't refused service because he was just “a Trump supporter”, but for what he has specifically done in the administration. Put another way, Sarah Huckabee-Sanders does not make a protected class.

I think whether to refuse service isn't clear cut, I can see arguments for both sides. But if the majority of my staff is uncomfortable for good reason (political reasons, but understandable ones), I would probably have done the same.
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The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 29, 2018, 09:25 AM
 
Good point. I'm not calling for a street-level fight here. I'm saying the 'elites' should feel a little inconvenience from people who find their policies more than just disagreeable.
     
subego
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Jun 29, 2018, 09:33 AM
 
I judge the restaurant’s action independently of SHS’ response.

I stand for inclusivity. Throwing people out goes against that.
     
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Jun 29, 2018, 10:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I stand for inclusivity. Throwing people out goes against that.
That's an entirely different point and has nothing to do with civility. From the reporting I gather the owner was very civil about it, so even if you disagree with the decision I don't think it was an example of a lack of civility. You can still disagree with the owner's decision.

IMHO the person who was uncivil was Sarah Huckabee-Sanders. (As far as I understand, neither Steven Miller nor Secretary Nielsen were the ones complaining, the press got wind of the stories independently. So they didn't take that issue to the bully pulpit, in contrast to the Press Secretary. So I would say as far as that interaction went, Miller and Nielsen were civil in that interaction.)
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I judge the restaurant’s action independently of SHS’ response.
I don't think you should, because civility means something different depending on the power differential.
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Jun 29, 2018, 11:33 AM
 
I've been trying to imagine other ways the Red Hen owner could have handled it, while still maintaining happy employees and dignity. Would introducing the staff as gay and immigrant have made Sarah uncomfortable enough to self-export? I don't think it would have made Sarah suddenly realize, OH GOD I'VE BEEN AN ASS. She would probably have tweeted about the preachy staff.

The owner took Sarah aside to chat privately. Sarah took to twitter. Who was civil?
     
Laminar
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Jun 29, 2018, 12:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'm sorry but I find your political analysis to be misguided. Republicans feel ok voting for shitty people because the alternative is policies they don't like. I, mean, that's politics in general thanks to FPTP.

Take whoever you think most embodies a virtuous democrat and convince me Trump voters would take that over Gorsuch, tax cuts, immigrant deportation, etc.
I'm speaking specifically about how Republicans can claim the moral high ground while simultaneously voting for the immoral candidate. This isn't justified in specifics, but generalizations. But you're right, they're not limited to reality and all sorts of pizza- and murder- and birth certificate-related conspiracies are enough to convince them of their side's superiority.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jun 29, 2018, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I judge the restaurant’s action independently of SHS’ response.

I stand for inclusivity. Throwing people out goes against that.
Inclusivity?! You struck a nerve with that. Why should be inclusive of a person who lies to Americans daily, deligitimizes and insults journalists, and is indifferent to inhumane treatment of children and those fleeing terrible conditions?

When am I allowed to exclude people?
     
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Jun 29, 2018, 06:50 PM
 
Everybody is allowed to pick their own bar, but I don’t judge someone's claim of inclusivity based on whom they find easy to include.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 1, 2018, 10:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
I'm speaking specifically about how Republicans can claim the moral high ground while simultaneously voting for the immoral candidate. This isn't justified in specifics, but generalizations. But you're right, they're not limited to reality and all sorts of pizza- and murder- and birth certificate-related conspiracies are enough to convince them of their side's superiority.
Funny you mention pizza gate because in my first draft I mentioned how Hillary had email gate but it still devolved to Clinton Foundation then Uranium One before it bottomed out on Pizza-gate.

Republicans aren't claiming the high ground though, not with Trump. They're merely rationalizing now.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
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Jul 1, 2018, 10:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Everybody is allowed to pick their own bar, but I don’t judge someone's claim of inclusivity based on whom they find easy to include.
Still, I think I had a good question. You stand for inclusivity. When is it appropriate to exclude? Acceptable? (I'm assuming SHS being politely asked to leave is 'unacceptable')
     
subego
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Jul 2, 2018, 02:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Still, I think I had a good question. You stand for inclusivity. When is it appropriate to exclude? Acceptable? (I'm assuming SHS being politely asked to leave is 'unacceptable')
For me, inclusivity means my restaurant strives to welcome all.

If a person can politely tolerate being in an environment which strives to welcome all, then they would be welcome.
     
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Jul 2, 2018, 09:27 AM
 
Meaning the Klan could come in and order breakfast, as long as they were polite and tipped their waitress?
     
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Jul 2, 2018, 12:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Meaning the Klan could come in and order breakfast, as long as they were polite and tipped their waitress?
Yes.

I’d even be tempted to offer them a progressive short stack on the house.
     
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Jul 2, 2018, 01:49 PM
 
Ok, so if the Klan members wear normal clothes and refrain from spouting racist nonsense at the waitress, sure, we don't know they are Klan. I'm sure tons of Klan guys go out for pancakes after meetings with nary a conflict.

But what if they wear, if not full hoods and robes, but a respectable polo shirt with a Klan logo on it? What if the waitress is uncomfortable serving such a person once they've been outed?
     
subego
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Jul 2, 2018, 02:09 PM
 
Then that employee stands for something different than what my establishment stands for.

This means they’re a bad fit, and I’d work with them to find someplace more in keeping with their principles.
     
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Jul 2, 2018, 02:51 PM
 
Oh, so this is more about capitalism than it is about ideals? Cuz that waitress remembers the KKK throwing bricks in her front window when she was little.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
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Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
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Jul 2, 2018, 05:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Oh, so this is more about capitalism than it is about ideals? Cuz that waitress remembers the KKK throwing bricks in her front window when she was little.
My belief is almost any person in the KKK who is willing to politely dine amongst the rainbow flags I’ve artfully placed while being served by a waitress of color is going to turn out better for the experience.

I should abandon this principle?

I’m not sure where capitalism fits in.
     
 
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