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Media, lawsuits, and Laminar vs Chongo Burma Shave Rap Battle
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subego
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Mar 11, 2019, 11:13 PM
 
This is another one which set off my “foreign bureau” bullshit detector. For all intents and purposes, combat agents weren’t used in WWII. I mean, they were used on civilians, but not actually in combat.

Here’s a German article on the story.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama...teil-1.4359199

It mentions “Ersten Weltkriegs”. Pretty sure that’s the First World War.

Some idiot who can’t read and doesn’t know history whipped this story up, and dozens of American press outfits, including the Washington Post, ran it without a second thought.

Don’t trust the media, kids. Seriously.
( Last edited by subego; Mar 12, 2019 at 02:16 AM. Reason: maybe I can read, but I can’t spell.)
     
And.reg
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Mar 12, 2019, 08:37 PM
 
subego: 1
mass media: 0
     
turtle777
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Mar 12, 2019, 09:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Some idiot who can’t read and doesn’t know history whipped this story up, and dozens of American press outfits, including the Washington Post, ran it without a second thought.

Don’t trust the media, kids. Seriously.
The context is a bit murky, but it seems the part evaluating the severity of the substance is a quote from the judge:

"Die Verbindungen, die O. zuletzt verwendet hat, sind giftiger als die Kampfstoffe des Ersten Weltkriegs."

"The substance that was used by O. are more lethal than substances used in World War I."

I don't know if the judge has a clue about the subject matter.
I does seem like some primitive chemical weapons were used in WWI, if you can believe / trust Wikipedia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemic...in_World_War_I

-t
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 12, 2019, 10:26 PM
 
Oh yeah... combat agents were used in World War One, but all the English language news agencies are reporting it as the judge saying World War Two.
     
Chongo
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Mar 13, 2019, 08:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is another one which set off my “foreign bureau” bullshit detector. For all intents and purposes, combat agents weren’t used in WWII. I mean, they were used on civilians, but not actually in combat.

Here’s a German article on the story.

https://www.sueddeutsche.de/panorama...teil-1.4359199

It mentions “Ersten Weltkriegs”. Pretty sure that’s the First World War.

Some idiot who can’t read and doesn’t know history whipped this story up, and dozens of American press outfits, including the Washington Post, ran it without a second thought.

Don’t trust the media, kids. Seriously.
Was this before or after the Washington Post was slapped with a $250,000,000 defamation lawsuit?
     
Laminar
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Mar 13, 2019, 09:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Was this before or after the Washington Post was slapped with a $250,000,000 defamation lawsuit?
lol

So much to unpack here.

Is being sued for defamation concrete evidence of the poor quality of a news source? You should be careful.
     
Chongo
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Mar 13, 2019, 04:43 PM
 
Wrong suit. CNN has also been served a $275,000,000 lawsuit.
     
Laminar
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Mar 13, 2019, 05:14 PM
 
What's a wrong suit?
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 13, 2019, 06:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What's a wrong suit?


While also being random and ridiculous.

Triple word score.
( Last edited by subego; Mar 13, 2019 at 06:39 PM. )
     
Chongo
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Mar 13, 2019, 07:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
What's a wrong suit?
Lin Wood on behalf of the Sandman family has filed suits against the Washington Post and CNN, with more to come.
     
Laminar
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Mar 18, 2019, 11:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Lin Wood on behalf of the Sandman family has filed suits against the Washington Post and CNN, with more to come.
Yes, I understood the lawsuit you were referencing. Apparently you misunderstood my post. Would you like me to explain it to you?
     
Chongo
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Mar 18, 2019, 03:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Yes, I understood the lawsuit you were referencing. Apparently you misunderstood my post. Would you like me to explain it to you?
Let me know when Breitbart or Project Veritas become a “newspaper of record”
I’d be surprised if PV wasn’t sued. What was the result of the suit? I see Breitbart was dropped, but can’t find anything other than stories of the suit being filed.
     
Laminar
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Mar 18, 2019, 05:26 PM
 
Okay so now I'm misunderstanding your point - a pending lawsuit against a news organization is evidence of the low quality of that news organization, but only if the new organization is prominent enough?
     
Chongo
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Mar 18, 2019, 08:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Okay so now I'm misunderstanding your point - a pending lawsuit against a news organization is evidence of the low quality of that news organization, but only if the new organization is prominent enough?
They're slipping for sure. It's just another sign the quality control isn't what it used to be.
     
Laminar
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Mar 19, 2019, 09:09 AM
 
MWPGA
     
andi*pandi
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Mar 19, 2019, 09:52 AM
 
new thread so andreg can have his random thread back. Teetering on the edge of Pol/War here... let's see how it does.
     
sek929
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Mar 19, 2019, 12:47 PM
 
Someone with a Qanon sig questioning the “quality control” of a media company is just pure comedy.
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 19, 2019, 01:35 PM
 
Well, my sig is fabulous.
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 19, 2019, 01:48 PM
 
Tempers are short
Tales are tall
Where we go one
We go all
Burma Shave
     
Laminar
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Mar 19, 2019, 02:06 PM
 
On the internet
I'm fierce like cougar.
But I suffer
From Dunning-Kruger
Burma Shave
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 19, 2019, 06:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
On the internet
I'm fierce like cougar.
But I suffer
From Dunning-Kruger
Burma Shave
This could probably be workshopped a bit.
     
Chongo
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Mar 24, 2019, 07:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by sek929 View Post
Someone with a Qanon sig questioning the “quality control” of a media company is just pure comedy.
I'll let Ted Koppel explain:


( Last edited by Chongo; Mar 24, 2019 at 07:49 PM. )
     
sek929
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Mar 25, 2019, 01:21 PM
 
Sadly his thoughts on Qanon are not in YouTube format.
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 25, 2019, 02:33 PM
 
I’m sure he’s on /d/. We can ask him there.
     
Chongo
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Mar 25, 2019, 04:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
On the internet
I'm fierce like cougar.
But I suffer
From Dunning-Kruger
Burma Shave
They had no proof
It was a hoax
Yet is not enough
For lefty lib folks
Burma Shave
     
andi*pandi
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Mar 25, 2019, 04:18 PM
 
barr says no proof
repubs all cheer
trump hired barr
something's fishy with his career?

-burma shave

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/24/o...er-report.html

for chongo, is it words or syllables?
barr says no proof
repubs they all cheer
so trump hired barr
seems a fishy career?

-burma shave
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Mar 26, 2019 at 08:55 AM. )
     
Chongo
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Mar 25, 2019, 06:40 PM
 
4
3
3
5

Burma Shave

No no, it’s

4
4
4
4
Burma Shave
     
Chongo
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Mar 25, 2019, 06:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
mueller says no proof
dems all weep
trump hired barr
something's fishy with his career?

-burma shave

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/24/o...er-report.html
Did you already forget what Koppel said about the NYT?
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 25, 2019, 06:54 PM
 
I can’t lie, I didn’t watch it.

A summary?
     
sek929
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Mar 25, 2019, 06:58 PM
 
Summary will be provided in another YouTube video
     
Chongo
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Mar 25, 2019, 07:07 PM
 
Koppel says the the Post and Times are not the papers they were 50 years ago. They are in Get Trump mode and print things they never would 50 years ago.
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 25, 2019, 07:21 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Koppel says the the Post and Times are not the papers they were 50 years ago. They are in Get Trump mode and print things they never would 50 years ago.
I’d say they’re certainly in Get Trump mode. It’s tempered a bit by how much they rely on access to him for stories. They can’t totally get on his bad side.

Similarly, they have to cover their tracks a bit by sprinkling in some opposition opinion.

Fifty years ago they were tempered by having to compete with national television. Excessive partisanship would have flat-out killed half their market.

Of course, fifty years on, that and more got killed by the Internet.
     
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Mar 25, 2019, 11:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’d say they’re certainly in Get Trump mode. It’s tempered a bit by how much they rely on access to him for stories. They can’t totally get on his bad side.
However, we need to keep in mind that Trump and people in his orbit are a target rich environment, just before entering office, Trump settled a big lawsuit over his fraudulent Trump “University” and plenty of former campaign officials have been charged and sentenced for lying to Congress and white collar crimes. Moreover, Trump's own behavior is fawning the flames here. He leaks when it suits him and plays the victim when it suits him.

Also, to say that X wasn't what it used to be 50 years ago is true of almost all things — but that doesn't automatically mean things have changed for the worse. And I'd add that readership has changed, too: 50 years ago most Americans weren't living in two different media bubbles, which have been created first with for profit news outlets and lately also with social media services and their algorithms. Papers that are more centrist are losing credibility on both sides. Plus, traditional newspapers are losing revenue, which leads to cost cutting measures, etc. etc. It is much harder to resist to sensationalize news if your survival depends on it.

<mod talk>I'll keep an eye on this thread and move it to the PL if necessary.</mod talk>
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turtle777
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Mar 26, 2019, 08:01 AM
 
Yeah, well, nobody expected Trump to be a great moral compass. Nor anyone else in DC.

I do (did) expect newspapers to report news, not opinions. These days are long gone.
For news organizations to use Trumps’s behavior to lower their journalistic standards is a sad irony.

Nobody trusted politicians for a reason.
Now, media outlets have squandered that trust as well.
Job well done.

-t
     
subego  (op)
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Mar 27, 2019, 02:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
However, we need to keep in mind that Trump and people in his orbit are a target rich environment...
Well, of course.

My accusation isn’t based on the number of targets engaged, it’s based on my perception of force used in attempting to dispatch said targets.

There is an objectively appropriate amount of force in any given situation. I posit it is hunan nature not to seek this amount, but instead rely on biases to make the determination. If I like the person, I’ll go easy on them. If I hate the person, I’ll use more force than necessary. For a person to look beyond one’s biases takes an enormous amount of effort. As an extreme example, take a murderer and compare the judgement passed on them by their own mother versus the mother of the victim.

My perception is the press, the Times and Post included, hate Trump’s ****ing guts, and spend almost no effort to look past that bias.

Is this analysis a result of my own bias? Perhaps, but note I’m diametrically opposed to Trump politically, and I find him to be a rather disgusting human being on top of it. None of my inherent bias inclines me to be sympathetic towards him.

Also note I put enormous effort into looking past my biases, and can say with authority this is a job Trump makes very, very difficult.
( Last edited by subego; Mar 27, 2019 at 02:51 AM. )
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 27, 2019, 10:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
There is an objectively appropriate amount of force in any given situation. I posit it is hunan nature not to seek this amount, but instead rely on biases to make the determination. If I like the person, I’ll go easy on them. If I hate the person, I’ll use more force than necessary. For a person to look beyond one’s biases takes an enormous amount of effort. As an extreme example, take a murderer and compare the judgement passed on them by their own mother versus the mother of the victim.
I understand what you are saying, but IMHO that's way too simple.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My perception is the press, the Times and Post included, hate Trump’s ****ing guts, and spend almost no effort to look past that bias.
No, I think that's way too simple.
There is a component to this in the whole situation, yeah, the whole “establishment” (initially at least that included the GOP establishment as well — remember, the Steele dossier was first prepared by Jeb Bush's campaign) was repulsed by Trump. And no doubt did that give people extra motivation.

But I think there is also that conservatives have successfully managed to shift the conversation to focus on criminal wrongdoing (including collusion as in Trump being in cahoots with Russia) and a part of the liberal readership and the serious press has lapped that up. And yeah, people who were viscerally opposed to Trump also projected the worst of it into him. (Just to be clear: I am not suggesting a simple cause-effect relationship “conservative scheming” —> “anti-Trump hysteria”, but rather that these were two independent things that were amplifying one another.)

Where I agree with you is that at the end of the day when it comes to Trump and his family themselves, the “Russian spy” narrative has distracted from other, real and more obvious issues (such as Trump's business dealings during his campaign and his presidency). I have been trying to be self-critical over the last few days and see to what extent I was influenced by the hype. I think (perhaps “I'd like to believe” is more accurate ) I was quite ok, Trump's business dealings had always been quite important to me and I thought that the most likely version of events was that Trump was completely ok with getting help from not-so-kosher places, but did not hedge a plan with the Kreml to take the presidency. I have made sure that my media diet also included things like The Intercept and some conservative outlets. And I have felt that Trump is a symptom, but not the disease — and consequently, even if Trump were removed from office today, the American political system would still be severely ill. But of course a clearer picture emerges once more time passes.


Moreover, what you are omitting in your analysis is the level of filth in DC that has for the first time in a long time been criminally established and extensively covered. It is clear that perhaps people that have been (and some still are) in Trump's orbit are perhaps particularly shady and grifty, but white collar crimes in Washington had for a long time been without consequences. And I hope that this will change in the years to come, no matter what political party someone is affiliated with. Just compare what happened to General Cartwright or Petraeus and compare that to Chelsea Manning. I think it is good that people who have more than bent the rules should now fear for consequences. On the other hand, these are more “mundane”, “boring” crimes than being part of a conspiracy. And here, Trump still has a huge problem.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Also note I put enormous effort into looking past my biases, and can say with authority this is a job Trump makes very, very difficult.
I think this is very commendable, and we should try to do that whenever possible.
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OreoCookie
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Mar 27, 2019, 10:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I do (did) expect newspapers to report news, not opinions. These days are long gone.
For news organizations to use Trumps’s behavior to lower their journalistic standards is a sad irony.
Newspapers the way you picture them never existed. Nor is the behavior in any way limited to Trump. Benghazi. WMDs in Iraq, Clinton's emails, etc. All of these were distractions that covered other, much more important topics.
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Nobody trusted politicians for a reason.
Now, media outlets have squandered that trust as well.
Sentiments like that get me every time, because it suggests that voters (and more generally, citizens) are victims in this game. If you start with the premise that politicians are untrustworthy, then, surprise, you get untrustworthy politicians. If you start with the premise that government is horrible, then very few good people will end up in government. My country's government is my responsibility, in fact, we are all the government. And if you consistently elect untrustworthy people, then this is eventually on you.
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OreoCookie
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Mar 27, 2019, 10:14 PM
 
PS I moved this to the PL, although I hope this will not derail the civil tone in this thread. Please keep it civil and the discussion as enjoyable as it is now.
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Chongo
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Mar 27, 2019, 11:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
(— remember, the Steele dossier was first prepared by Jeb Bush's campaign)
The Washington Free Beacon, not Jeb!, was the first to employ Fusion GPS. They dropped them after them Trump was on his way to secure the nomination. The DNClinton campaign subsequently hired Fusion GPS through Perkins Coie, who hired Steele etc, etc.
     
OreoCookie
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Mar 27, 2019, 11:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
The Washington Free Beacon, not Jeb!, was the first to employ Fusion GPS. They dropped them after them Trump was on his way to secure the nomination. The DNClinton campaign subsequently hired Fusion GPS through Perkins Coie, who hired Steele etc, etc.
AFAIK Jeb Bush supporters were involved in the creation of the Steele dossier (although in my post I wrote Jeb Bush). In any case, be that as it may, my point is that there were initially also antibodies developing against Trump within the GOP establishment.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Laminar
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Apr 2, 2019, 12:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
They had no proof
It was a hoax
Yet is not enough
For lefty lib folks
Burma Shave
My moral standing
Just took a dump
Because I voted
For Donald Trump
Burma Shave

The FBI
Exudes delusion
Unless I like
Their conclusion
Burma Shave

A wise man said
Don't be a wussy
If you are rich
Just grab her pussy.
Burma Shave

"Share your assets"
"Love your brethren"
Jesus was not
Republican
Burma Shave
     
Doc HM
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Apr 3, 2019, 05:42 PM
 
Hole in one?
Or in in ten?
Mark your card
Or stand again?
Burma Shave


oops 3 on line 3. Too tired to fix, meh.
This space for Hire! Reasonable rates. Reach an audience of literally dozens!
     
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Apr 4, 2019, 07:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Doc HM View Post
Hole in one?
Or in in ten?
Mark your card
Or stand again?
Burma Shave


oops 3 on line 3. Too tired to fix, meh.
aah ahh!
     
Chongo
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May 1, 2019, 09:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Koppel says the the Post and Times are not the papers they were 50 years ago. They are in Get Trump mode and print things they never would 50 years ago.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’d say they’re certainly in Get Trump mode. It’s tempered a bit by how much they rely on access to him for stories. They can’t totally get on his bad side.

Similarly, they have to cover their tracks a bit by sprinkling in some opposition opinion.

Fifty years ago they were tempered by having to compete with national television. Excessive partisanship would have flat-out killed half their market.

Of course, fifty years on, that and more got killed by the Internet.
The NY Times international edition published this:


Days later, this:


Get Trump out weighs quality control again?
     
andi*pandi
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May 1, 2019, 10:32 AM
 
those are adorable kittens. Post more.
     
The Final Shortcut
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May 19, 2019, 10:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
I do (did) expect newspapers to report news, not opinions. These days are long gone.
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Newspapers the way you picture them never existed. .
Word.

I find this prevailing sentiment (amongst the Republican/conservative crowd in particular these days) to be ignorant at best, deliberately misleading/dishonest at worst.

Go take a look at some news articles from 30, 40, 60, 75 or 100 years ago. This mythical earlier time, better time didn’t exist.
     
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May 20, 2019, 10:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Shortcut View Post
Word.

I find this prevailing sentiment (amongst the Republican/conservative crowd in particular these days) to be ignorant at best, deliberately misleading/dishonest at worst.

Go take a look at some news articles from 30, 40, 60, 75 or 100 years ago. This mythical earlier time, better time didn’t exist.
true.


     
   
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