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Extremists given a free hand (Page 3)
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vmarks
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Sep 8, 2008, 06:57 AM
 
(3) may or may not be fictional, and in either event has no bearing on moderation.
     
Eug
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Sep 8, 2008, 10:28 AM
 
What about making the PL its own forum, rather than a subforum of the L?

That way the PL threads would never show up in the Lounge's "last post" header.

Not sure if that help things at all though, but it might at least provide a perceived separation between the two forum sections. L people wouldn't have to constantly see PL threads mentioned in their L description.
     
vmarks
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Sep 8, 2008, 10:36 AM
 
Are we that thin-skinned that the mere mention in a last post line vibrates the fillings of our teeth?

(ok, mixed up descriptions, and it's the CIA broadcasts that rattle fillings, not PL. I think. But you get the idea.)
     
Eug
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Sep 8, 2008, 10:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by vmarks View Post
Are we that thin-skinned that the mere mention in a last post line vibrates the fillings of our teeth?
No, but it could help separate the two forums, and perhaps, some people intending to go the Lounge would be less inclined to go to the PL instead.
     
Maflynn
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Sep 8, 2008, 04:05 PM
 
I agree with Eug on this and it has nothing to do with being thinned skin. I rarely go into the PL yet the last post of the lounge forum being shown at forums.macnn is always something from the PL.

Personally I've found the zealots on both sides of the fence make the PL rather distasteful so I usually avoid that forum. I suspect many people do so, as well so it makes more sense to have it as a regular forum instead of a child forum of the lounge.

Both the liberal leaning members and the conservative members constantly inflame each other and very little real dialog exists there. Most everyone in the PL seems more intent on pushing their ideological agenda (generally in a abrasive and abusive manner) then having any sort of dialog and discussion.
~Mike
     
Laminar
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Sep 8, 2008, 04:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Maflynn View Post
Both the liberal leaning members and the conservative members constantly inflame each other and very little real dialog exists there. Most everyone in the PL seems more intent on pushing their ideological agenda (generally in a abrasive and abusive manner) then having any sort of dialog and discussion.
I feel like you're pushing your ideological agenda on me in an abrasive manner.
     
analogika
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Sep 8, 2008, 05:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
Nonsense. On stilts.
Your post does not pass the 'straight face test'.
The reality is that the PL is policed by one extremist who cannot stand the presence of people who challenge his fragile worldview. The result is that over time bad behavior from the ideologically pure is tolerated, while those who disagree are banned. It doesn't take anything more than an honest look at the place to see that this is true - the only question is 'is this what the owners of MacNN have in mind'?

Perhaps one solution would be to start another PL for actual discussion, and rename the current one to reflect that fact that it is solely for VMark's buddies to congratulate each other without fear of critique?
Listen, dude, this is coming from someone who is anything but right-wing, and who's had his share of infractions and an imposed "cooling down" ban, before finally having myself banned from the Poli Forum after realizing that there's no way I can take a sportly, sparring attitude about issues I do take very seriously:

Stop.

Seriously.

I realize that the very ATTITUDE portrayed by the people you're arguing with is something you perceive as inconsiderate, arrogant, and completely without regard to fellow human beings (at least, that was in part what fueled my vitriol in the Poli Lounge), but really, there's nothing you can do that will change that.

And in the meantime, your ad hominems are giving them smug justification and getting you (justified) infractions and bans, while the people you're arguing can put on an attitude that they know annoys you - just to piss you off. And they have every right to do so, as long as they're polite (in conversation, not to humanity).

Use your energy for something useful.

Talking at the Kevins of this world isn't going to do any more good than talking to a lamppost - and at least with the lamppost, you have the chance of knocking the broken bulb out of the head and replacing it with something bright.


That's no moderator conspiracy; that's just you in direct conflict with reality.
     
Kerrigan
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Sep 8, 2008, 05:26 PM
 
I wondered where you went, Analogika.

Anyways, zombiepunk, I got an infraction from vmarks a while back. I can't remember what it was for, but I know that it was justified in retrospect. You have to learn to get over it, he's just doing his unpaid thankless task.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 8, 2008, 07:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
That's no moderator conspiracy; that's just you in direct conflict with reality.
Of course there isn't a conspiracy - it's ONE moderator...
     
besson3c
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Sep 8, 2008, 08:24 PM
 
I have no problems with the moderation equality in the PL, but the tone in there has become rather vile as of late. If the PL is a sort of garbage collection area, fine, but if good discussion is desired there I would suggest trying to eliminate some of the rancor and intense partisanship on both sides. I'm sure I've become involved in that too, so I'm not trying to perch myself as being above the fray.
     
brassplayersrock²
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Sep 8, 2008, 10:00 PM
 
You're starting to sound like a serious nut job zp. OOOO the bad old mods are after me, waa waa waa. Give it a break, you've voiced your thoughts already. Give it a rest, and get over yourself.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 8, 2008, 10:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² View Post
You're starting to sound like a serious nut job zp. OOOO the bad old mods are after me, waa waa waa. Give it a break, you've voiced your thoughts already. Give it a rest, and get over yourself.
Again, your math is faulty. It's ONE mod. And not just me. By the way, re your sig, if you don't like the way network operators are trying to run it, why not just leave it? Stop going on about network neutrality like they're out to get you or something. Give it a rest, and get over yourself.
( Last edited by zombie punk; Sep 8, 2008 at 10:14 PM. )
     
besson3c
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Sep 8, 2008, 10:09 PM
 
See, comments like brass' are what I was referring to in regards to the rancor and lack of civility around here. There is no reason to get defensive or offensive about a statement like zp's. I think we should all learn from Dork. about how to be laid back and not take things too seriously. I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I'd much rather a pleasant and civil environment over agreeing with everybody here.
     
brassplayersrock²
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Sep 8, 2008, 10:16 PM
 
Actually I'm not: Brass I'm: brassplayersrock²
     
analogika
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Sep 9, 2008, 05:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
Of course there isn't a conspiracy - it's ONE moderator...
You pick the least relevant line of my post to roll your eyes at?

No consideration for the rest?

I suspect we may have found your problem.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 9, 2008, 05:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
Of course there isn't a conspiracy - it's ONE moderator...
Yeah, but not one maverick moderator.
I remember two-odd threads like that about me. When infractions were new, some of the back-then usual suspects started with the same accusations you've made here: that I was using my (nearly omnipotent) `powers' in this forum to further my agenda and systematically exclude people with an opinion different from mine.

Overall, IMO vmarks is doing a very good job to manage the PL.
However, if vmarks were to systematically abuse his powers, the other staffers would see the abuse as such and take appropriate measures. In my experience with him, vmarks separates his personal opinions from his duties as a mod (which, I think, is where quite a few people have a problem getting their head around). The infractions system allows us to track each point when a mod (could be someone other than vmarks) has decided a post violates our rules and guidelines. Even if one infraction or another may be contestable, the pattern is not. So if a member racks up quite a point count, it's because of his/her behavior and not because some mod doesn't like him/her.

Analogika has it in a nutshell: you will not convince some members of your position. Accept that. (Of course, they are equally unlikely to convince you.) What is the purpose of your posts then? Personally, I am sometimes interested to see how other people tick. To see where they're coming from. If you're flying off the handle because of other people's opinion, it won't do anyone any good. You'll be perceived as an idiot partisan jerk and your behavior will be linked to your opinion (by some at least).
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Sep 9, 2008 at 05:47 AM. )
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 9, 2008, 06:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Yeah, but not one maverick moderator.
I remember two-odd threads like that about me. When infractions were new, some of the back-then usual suspects started with the same accusations you've made here: that I was using my (nearly omnipotent) `powers' in this forum to further my agenda and systematically exclude people with an opinion different from mine.

Overall, IMO vmarks is doing a very good job to manage the PL.
However, if vmarks were to systematically abuse his powers, the other staffers would see the abuse as such and take appropriate measures. In my experience with him, vmarks separates his personal opinions from his duties as a mod (which, I think, is where quite a few people have a problem getting their head around). The infractions system allows us to track each point when a mod (could be someone other than vmarks) has decided a post violates our rules and guidelines. Even if one infraction or another may be contestable, the pattern is not. So if a member racks up quite a point count, it's because of his/her behavior and not because some mod doesn't like him/her.

Analogika has it in a nutshell: you will not convince some members of your position. Accept that. (Of course, they are equally unlikely to convince you.) What is the purpose of your posts then? Personally, I am sometimes interested to see how other people tick. To see where they're coming from. If you're flying off the handle because of other people's opinion, it won't do anyone any good. You'll be perceived as an idiot partisan jerk and your behavior will be linked to your opinion (by some at least).
Again, this doesn't pass the straight face test. I'm not asking you to prop up the idea that Vmarks is being reasonable, I'm asking for honesty that the PL has no aspirations beyond being a forum for him and his buddies. I'm not 'flying off the handle', I'm asking a reasonable question, calmly, in the feedback forum. In response, I've had nothing but the kind of reactionary abuse you bring in your post.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 9, 2008, 06:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
You pick the least relevant line of my post to roll your eyes at?
There was really nothing relevant in the post.
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
No consideration for the rest?
There was really nothing relevant in the rest.
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
I suspect we may have found your problem.
It's not 'my problem'.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 9, 2008, 06:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
I'm not asking you to prop up the idea that Vmarks is being reasonable, I'm asking for honesty that the PL has no aspirations beyond being a forum for him and his buddies.
Well, you're asking us to admit you're right, but we (= us two at the very least) have different opinions on the matter.
I'm saying this, because I've taken the same flak by people who don't agree with all of my political points of views. Exact same arguments.
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
I'm not 'flying off the handle', I'm asking a reasonable question, calmly, in the feedback forum.
I was talking about your behavior in the PL, not here in the Feedback forum.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 9, 2008, 06:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Well, you're asking us to admit you're right, but we (= us two at the very least) have different opinions on the matter.
I'm saying this, because I've taken the same flak by people who don't agree with all of my political points of views. Exact same arguments.
I'm not going to debate with you whether there is rampant discrimination in the PL. It's plain to see - if you don't want to admit it, that's fine, and is an answer (of sorts) to the question this thread is asking.

Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I was talking about your behavior in the PL, not here in the Feedback forum.
Please take discussion about individuals to a different thread - this thread is about discrimination based on political views.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 9, 2008, 06:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
Please take discussion about individuals to a different thread - this thread is about discrimination based on political views.
:errr:
The individual were talking about is you, not some third person.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 9, 2008, 06:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
:errr:
The individual were talking about is you, not some third person.
Which is irrelevant - you're derailing a thread by taking it off topic. The issue here is systematic discrimination, not your issue with my post in a different forum.
     
Sickster  (op)
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Sep 9, 2008, 07:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
Which is irrelevant - you're derailing a thread by taking it off topic. The issue here is systematic discrimination, not your issue with my post in a different forum.
Forget it ZP - trying to get any sense of these goons is like wrestling a pig in mud. You get covered in all their ****, and the pig loves it.
     
analogika
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Sep 9, 2008, 08:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
Which is irrelevant - you're derailing a thread by taking it off topic. The issue here is systematic discrimination, not your issue with my post in a different forum.
Actually, that ISN'T the issue.

The issue is that you're incapable of understanding that you're not being discriminated against because of your beliefs; you're being discriminated against BECAUSE YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE ABOUT THEM.

If you're not interested in what people write in response to your posts, then people won't bother. If you get petulant and pissy about it and start insulting people to get their attention, you get infractions.

Enjoy your ride.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 9, 2008, 08:57 AM
 
Please, people, don't start insulting each other: either keep this on topic or this thread will be closed in no time.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
analogika
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Sep 9, 2008, 09:02 AM
 
That wouldn't be a loss now, would it?
     
analogika
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Sep 9, 2008, 09:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
There was really nothing relevant in the post.

There was really nothing relevant in the rest.

It's not 'my problem'.
I can see why you might run into difficulties.

I suspect that the Political Lounge isn't the only area in your life that is causing you problems.
     
Oisín
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Sep 9, 2008, 09:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
I'm not going to debate with you whether there is rampant discrimination in the PL. It's plain to see - if you don't want to admit it, that's fine
Nobody’s going to debate with you whether there is rampant discrimination in the PL. It’s plain to see there isn’t—if you don’t want to admit it, that’s fine.




See? Just emptily repeating the opposite stance is not a very efficient way of getting any further.

You keep repeating that there is discrimination against anyone who doesn’t agree with vmarks, something needs to be done about it, and everyone who says this isn’t so “doesn’t pass the straight-face test”.

More or less everyone else—including other moderators (who happen to be in a much better position than you to judge whether or not there is any such discrimination going on, since they can see exactly who vmarks gives infractions and bans, which you can’t) and people who agree with vmarks’ political stance(s) and have received infractions from his—keeps repeating that there isn’t.

Nobody’s getting any further.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 9, 2008, 12:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogika View Post
YOU'RE AN ASSHOLE
Please calm down and stop hurling abuse. I particularly enjoy that Analogika has the gall to call me "petulant and pissy".
( Last edited by zombie punk; Sep 9, 2008 at 12:41 PM. )
     
Dakar V
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Sep 9, 2008, 12:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by zombie punk View Post
Please calm down and stop hurling abuse.
Excellent. Now follow that advice in the PL and you'll find your problems disappear.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 9, 2008, 12:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar V View Post
Excellent. Now follow that advice in the PL and you'll find your problems disappear.
Well, not exactly - which brings us back to where we came in here.
     
Dakar V
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Sep 9, 2008, 12:43 PM
 
Have you posted specific examples of times you've not been an asshole and been moderated?
     
Laminar
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Location: Iowa, how long can this be? Does it really ruin the left column spacing?
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Sep 9, 2008, 12:46 PM
 
Who needs specific examples when you have a vague conspiracy?
     
zombie punk
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Sep 9, 2008, 01:09 PM
 
This is not about me - it's not my thread, and it's not a conspiracy.
     
Kerrigan
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Sep 9, 2008, 01:28 PM
 
A good way to keep from getting bent out of shape during political discussions is to do these things:

1) When someone rudely replies with virtual hysterical laughter ("bwaahahhahaHAHAHAHAhaahaHAAHAHAHA" and ) this person has not yet been housebroken, so click: view profile -> ignore.

2) When you notice that people are stalking you, ie. arriving in every thread you participate in and attempting to discredit even your most innocuous statements, click: view profile -> ignore.

4) When someone insults you personally, click: view profile -> ignore.

5) When someone posts about ridiculous conspiracies or says that everyone is ganging up on him, click: view profile -> ignore.
     
zombie punk
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Sep 9, 2008, 01:31 PM
 
Again, please read the thread - this is not a complaint about a conspiracy. No one is complaining about 'ganging up'. In fact, no malice is even necessary to explain VMarks' behavior. It would be difficult to imagine him being able to be even handed even if he tried.
     
Doofy
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Sep 9, 2008, 01:54 PM
 
Damn fine idea Kerri.

...plink...
...plink...
...plink...
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Big Mac
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Sep 9, 2008, 01:55 PM
 
You're not the only left-wing poster around here, zombie. Many came before you were around, and many will come after you leave. But this thread is seriously outliving its usefulness.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 9, 2008, 03:21 PM
 
I think this thread just wants to die ...
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
seanc
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Location: Cambridge, UK
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Sep 9, 2008, 03:22 PM
 
Seconded. There's no useful topic being discussed here anymore.
     
 
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