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goMac · Nov 17, 2006, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by icruise

No, that just means that they aren't coding for it well yet. No matter how powerful the system, you can still make it perform like crap if you don't code for it properly. That's not to say that I necessarily agree that the PS3 is going to be better than the Xbox 360 -- we'll have to wait and see about that.

Hence why I said optimization. The PS3 is a different beast than most systems, simply because it relies on the number of cores a game uses, not how much of the processor it consumes. The problem with spanning over multiple Cores is you don't necessarily get a performance gain from using one more Core. In fact, it's possible to make your game run slower by going one Core too far. Multiple cores are normally used for saving power and using reduced (ignoring the advantage they bring when being used in computers running multiple programs).

I'm sure there are some coding issues in the games. But claiming that the PS3's power still hasn't been touched on, while the PS3 is getting pegged running bad code, are directly in conflict. And it doesn't seem to happen in specific games. All the games seem to be dropping frames to varying degrees.

Cores become useful when non-multi core designs reach their limits. And on consoles... we're not quite there yet. Especially not enough for a processor like the Cell.

Y3a · Nov 17, 2006, 05:12 PM

What IS with all the fights, robberies, etc all for a stupid video game system. What kind of people are THAT hooked? Pathetic.

Chuckit · Nov 17, 2006, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

I'm sure there are some coding issues in the games. But claiming that the PS3's power still hasn't been touched on, while the PS3 is getting pegged running bad code, are directly in conflict.

How so? The system's total potential power is the sum of its components, while with bad code, it's limited by the weakest link. Just because something is causing the system to drop frames doesn't mean the system's total power is being harnessed.

ort888 · Nov 17, 2006, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Y3a

What IS with all the fights, robberies, etc all for a stupid video game system. What kind of people are THAT hooked? Pathetic.

It's not really over the console, 90% of the people in line just want to flip the things on ebay.

icruise · Nov 17, 2006, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Y3a

What IS with all the fights, robberies, etc all for a stupid video game system. What kind of people are THAT hooked? Pathetic.

These are not gamers. If this was a Tickle Me Elmo that was selling for $2500 on eBay, you'd see people attacking each other for that, too.

goMac · Nov 17, 2006, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

How so? The system's total potential power is the sum of its components, while with bad code, it's limited by the weakest link. Just because something is causing the system to drop frames doesn't mean the system's total power is being harnessed.

Sloppy code can cause a system to drop frames, except it has to be really sloppy code. I mean sure, maybe you could go back and re-write some code in assembly. Except your performance gain won't be that high.

I find it hard to believe all the dev houses were all so sloppy they were all dropping frames with so much power available to them. Dropped frames usually show up about mid way through a console's life span, not at launch.

Even if it is simply sloppy code, that means PS3 developers have double the catch up to do. They have to optimize their code, and bump up the graphic quality.

In addition, the PS3 is going to run into another limit. The XB360 has more memory, meaning it can throw up more higher quality textures at the same time. All the processing power in the world won't fix that.

Chuckit · Nov 17, 2006, 06:27 PM

I think we've known for a while that the PS3 has a very weird architecture that can be used to great effect but won't necessarily blow other systems away with code that doesn't take advantage of it. Then again, the Wii has its bizarre-ass control scheme too, so I guess it'll be harder to write generally portable games for this generation of systems.

ort888 · Nov 17, 2006, 06:30 PM

I think that 95% or more of the sales are going to end up on ebay. On the IGN PS# board, which is filled with literally thousands of rabid Playstation fanboys, there are currently (according to various polls) about 25 people who actually own and are keeping/playing their PS3s.

Now, I know that number isn't super scientific or anything, but the fact that only 25 super-fanboys are admitting to even having one is simply insane. Mindbogglingly insane.

Nothing like this has ever happened before.

Dark Helmet · Nov 17, 2006, 06:35 PM

On the plus side in Japan and Canada the launch was without violence, shooting, riots and muggings:

TheStar.com - Gamers finally get their PS3s

ink · Nov 17, 2006, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by ort888

I think that 95% or more of the sales are going to end up on ebay. On the IGN PS# board, which is filled with literally thousands of rabid Playstation fanboys, there are currently (according to various polls) about 25 people who actually own and are keeping/playing their PS3s.

Now, I know that number isn't super scientific or anything, but the fact that only 25 super-fanboys are admitting to even having one is simply insane. Mindbogglingly insane.

Nothing like this has ever happened before.

Even the most rabid fanboy can be bought for $2000 so that some rich ass can buy his spoiled brat a PS3 for Christmas.

Dark Helmet · Nov 17, 2006, 08:47 PM

Um if anyone wants a 360 today would be a damn good day:
http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/pro...on=L&langid=EN

Just gears of war is worth $69 CAN.

Chuckit · Nov 17, 2006, 09:07 PM

Unfortunately…

Originally Posted by futureshop.ca

Availability: This product is sold out.

itai195 · Nov 18, 2006, 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

We're already getting games dropping frames on the PS3. Hate to break it to you, but that means the people are already using the PS3's power to it's limits.

Are you kidding? It's a bit early in the console's lifecycle to claim that its power is being tapped to the limit. I have a feeling this statement will look pretty silly in a couple years.

goMac · Nov 18, 2006, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by itai195

Are you kidding? It's a bit early in the console's lifecycle to claim that its power is being tapped to the limit. I have a feeling this statement will look pretty silly in a couple years.

Games don't usually drop frames this early in the console lifespan. My guess is the ports of the existing XB360 engines (unoptimized) are pushing the console. When they're optimized they'll be on par with the XB360, but I don't think the PS3 is going to outdo the 360. What it has in cores is lost in maintaining the multiple threads. The PS3's power is wrapped up in maintaining it's complexity. Those looking for a faster system than the XB360 will be disappointed.

itai195 · Nov 18, 2006, 01:31 AM

I'm not convinced we'll see a marked difference in performance between the PS3 and the 360, but that's quite different from claiming the PS3's power has been tapped.

Plus, didn't a bunch of the PS2 launch games drop frames? Some of the 360 launch games, like Perfect Dark, did. Launch games are rarely if ever impressive, I wouldn't recommend making any judgement of performance based on them.

goMac · Nov 18, 2006, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by itai195

I'm not convinced we'll see a marked difference in performance between the PS3 and the 360, but that's quite different from claiming the PS3's power has been tapped.

Plus, didn't a bunch of the PS2 launch games drop frames? A bunch of the 360 launch games, like Perfect Dark, did.

Remember, because of it's multicore design, the more complex a game becomes, the more horsepower the PS3 have to devote just to maintaining those multiple threads. It takes power just to use more cores.

itai195 · Nov 18, 2006, 01:37 AM

Yeah but that's not a basis to claim the PS3 is less powerful. There's overhead from dealing with multiple threads, but a properly coded game should show a net gain in performance due to multithreading. This should be obvious -- otherwise game development wouldn't be headed in this direction. The trouble with concurrency is that sloppy code can really screw up performance and - as you point out - actually cause lower performance than a monolithic design.

Also lets not forget the 360's processor is multicore too, though not to the extent PS3 is. And similar things regarding complex architecture were said of the PS2 as well. It's just too early to judge.

goMac · Nov 18, 2006, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by itai195

Yeah but that's not a basis to claim the PS3 is less powerful. There's overhead from dealing with multiple threads, but a properly coded game should show a net gain in performance due to multithreading.

Not necessarily. It is possible to max out on threads and just net performance losses from there on.

Originally Posted by itai195

This should be obvious -- otherwise game development wouldn't be headed in this direction.

Not necessarily game development. The problem is that adding Cores linearly increases heat and power requirements, as where upping mhz increases heat and power requirements exponentially.

It's more a requirement of CPU design, but where you can avoid multiple Cores, it's better at this point for games.

Dark Helmet · Nov 18, 2006, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Unfortunately…

I called a few stores and they have it in stores still.

Eug Wanker · Nov 18, 2006, 03:00 AM

PS3 eBhey auction picture gallery

- - e r i k - - · Nov 18, 2006, 03:34 AM

That thread is hilarious!

Stogieman · Nov 18, 2006, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

Games don't usually drop frames this early in the console lifespan.

I guess you never got a chance to play Rouge Squadron on the Game Cube.

Chuckit · Nov 18, 2006, 04:53 AM

Or Gradius III on the SNES. I remember all the bitching in the game magazines about how such a seemingly simple game could bring the SNES to its knees. Somehow the system managed to go on and produce better games, though.

icruise · Nov 18, 2006, 05:12 AM

Originally Posted by Stogieman

I guess you never got a chance to play Rouge Squadron on the Game Cube.

Is that the one where you fly around in a giant makeup case?

Hawkeye_a · Nov 18, 2006, 05:36 AM

Originally Posted by Stogieman

I guess you never got a chance to play Rouge Squadron on the Game Cube.

Thats the game that got me back to consoles.... i never noticed any dropped frames. georgous game.

Sealobo · Nov 18, 2006, 06:08 AM

got mine pre-ordered from SonyStyle... pickup date on 24th November.

itai195 · Nov 18, 2006, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by goMac

Not necessarily. It is possible to max out on threads and just net performance losses from there on.

Hence, games must be properly coded.

It's more a requirement of CPU design, but where you can avoid multiple Cores, it's better at this point for games.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Game development simply has to evolve along with the CPU designs.

goMac · Nov 18, 2006, 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by itai195

Game development simply has to evolve along with the CPU designs.

Games aren't as parallel as most people think. Game design will adapt, but generally more mhz over more cores is the way to go right now. It's not hard to thread a game, just designing your thread locking in a way that makes threading productive is the problem.

Eug Wanker · Nov 19, 2006, 07:20 PM

Picked up King Kong for the Xbox 360 for free today.

Future Shop is running a deal where you get the HD DVD drive (including remote and King Kong HD DVD), plus King Kong game for CAD$199.99 (US$175).

Considering the game usually is CAD$39.99, that means we're sorta effectively getting the HD DVD package for CAD$160 (US$140). Not a bad deal.

dcolton · Nov 19, 2006, 07:21 PM

Does that controller for the Wii really work well?

goMac · Nov 19, 2006, 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by dcolton

Does that controller for the Wii really work well?

Yes.

Only issue I've had is I'll set down the Wiimote or something and Zelda will think it's a sword strike.

But having the joystick in my other hand feels very nice. It just feels much better. Can't even explain it.

goMac · Nov 20, 2006, 01:27 AM

My Pentium 3/400 runs Linux faster than the PS3:

YouTube - Fedora Linux on the PS3

Chuckit · Nov 20, 2006, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by goMac

My Pentium 3/400 runs Linux faster than the PS3:

YouTube - Fedora Linux on the PS3

Man, there go the hopes of all zero people who were buying a PS3 to be a Linux box.

goMac · Nov 20, 2006, 01:43 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Man, there go the hopes of all zero people who were buying a PS3 to be a Linux box.

I like how there is a lag while the PS3 loads the icons for programs up in the launch menu.

SLiMeX · Nov 20, 2006, 01:46 AM

I feel dumb. I sat in line for 3 days and got a PS3, just to put it on eBay. What has happened is exactly what I was afraid would. Does anyone want one?

Chuckit · Nov 20, 2006, 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by SLiMeX

I feel dumb. I sat in line for 3 days and got a PS3, just to put it on eBay. What has happened is exactly what I was afraid would. Does anyone want one?

Aww, that sucks. I have a feeling you might find a few takers here, though. SWG didn't get one yet, did he?

SLiMeX · Nov 20, 2006, 01:54 AM

Really? Well, honestly, its on eBay right now for a little bit longer. Check it out if anyone's interested.
eBay: SONY PLAYSTATION 3 PS3 20 GB IN HAND NIB CONSOLE (item 160053111361 end time Nov-20-06 09:17:19 PST)

Dark Helmet · Nov 20, 2006, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Aww, that sucks. I have a feeling you might find a few takers here, though. SWG didn't get one yet, did he?

I'm not paying a dime over retail for any system.

Chuckit · Nov 20, 2006, 02:22 AM

Oh, yeah, $1550, maybe not…

Hawkeye_a · Nov 20, 2006, 02:38 AM

So like...the two main guys in here who have been dissing Nintendo, the DS and the Wii for the past couple of years, dont own DSs or Wiis....do they ?

Chuckit · Nov 20, 2006, 02:40 AM

Starman was posting about his Wii (wow, I feel wrong saying that) in the Wii thread.

icruise · Nov 20, 2006, 03:08 AM

I don't think he has a Wii (correct me if I'm wrong, Starman). He said he tried to get one at GameStop but they were out.

Eug · Nov 20, 2006, 09:27 AM

Originally Posted by SLiMeX

I feel dumb. I sat in line for 3 days and got a PS3, just to put it on eBay. What has happened is exactly what I was afraid would. Does anyone want one?

I'll give you 100 bucks, and a 6-pack of beer to drown your sorrows.

P.S. This smells of somebody who just wanted to advertise his eBhey auction here.

starman · Nov 20, 2006, 09:31 AM

I don't have a Wii, I just tested one. I'm looking to get one, I'm just not going silly-out-of-my-way to do so. I should be getting one Wednesday. A friend of mine didn't pick up his reserve yet. He doesn't want it, he wants to sell it on eBay, but said he'd sell it to me for $350. Some friend.

Dakar² · Nov 20, 2006, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by starman

I'm just not going silly-out-of-my-way to do so.

So you won't be paying full price?

Oooooooooooooooooooooohhhh! </dice clay>

Dakar² · Nov 20, 2006, 09:35 AM

Originally Posted by Eug Wanker

I wonder how many people looked at that picture and thought, "Sweet! a PS3!"

starman · Nov 20, 2006, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

I wonder how many people looked at that picture and thought, "Sweet! a PS3!"

Buahahahhahahh!

Chuckit · Nov 20, 2006, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

I wonder how many people looked at that picture and thought, "Sweet! a PS3!"

Probably about as many as looked at any other picture and thought, "Sweet! A PS3!"

It seems like the PS3's biggest market at the moment is eBay sellers.

Dark Helmet · Nov 20, 2006, 12:53 PM

Originally Posted by Dakar²

I wonder how many people looked at that picture and thought, "Sweet! a PS3!"

I was thinking that I wouldn't want to buy it as the PS3 box probably has grease stains on the back.

Eug Wanker · Nov 20, 2006, 06:56 PM

The New York Times hates the PS3.

And so it is a bit of a shock to realize that on the video game front Microsoft and Sony are moving in exactly the opposite directions one might expect given their roots. Microsoft, the prototypical PC company, has made the Xbox 360 into a powerful but intuitive, welcoming, people-friendly system. Sony’s PlayStation 3, on the other hand, often feels like a brawny but somewhat recalcitrant specialized computer. (Sony is even telling users to wait for future software patches to fix some of the PS3’s deficiencies.) The thing is, if people want to use a computer, they’ll use a computer.

Through the decades of the Walkman and the Trinitron television, Sony was renowned as the global master of easy-to-use, seamlessly powerful consumer electronics. But recently Sony seems to have lost its way, first in digital music players, in which it ceded the ergonomic high ground to Apple’s iPod, and now in home-game consoles. For now Sony’s technologists seem to have won out over the people who study fun.

As a practical matter, given the limited quantities Sony has been able to manufacture, the PlayStation 3 will surely remain sold out throughout the holiday season. If you can’t find one, don’t fret. Sony still has a lot of work to do. As Mr. Grant of Joystiq put it: “Maybe in six months it’ll be finished. Maybe by next fall I’ll be able to do all the cool stuff. I’m still kind of waiting.”

And before someone says that gamers don't read the NY Times, I found the link in a gamer thread.