[kennethmac2000]

Why do Apple do it? Don't they realise there is a whole world outside the US?

No-one in Europe uses - or even understands why anyone would want to use - the MM/DD/YYYY date format, yet Apple doesn't give us a choice.

Furthermore, we also don't understand what the point of the 12-hour clock with AM/PM indicators is when there's a perfectly good system known as the 24-hour clock which avoids duplicating hour numbers.

Again though, no option for this in .Mac webmail!

[torsoboy]

Nope, doesn't bother me. You are buying/using a product from an American company and complaining that it tells the date and time the American way? *gasp*

[Paco500]

Nope. Not bothered.

[RevEvs]

To be fair, yes its a US company, but they are worldwide with offices/stores etc etc in europe and everywhere else.

And also, it doesnt take very long at all to add an option to have the date formatted correctly (I develop for a huge multilingual system, and we allow any data format, it isnt hard).

revs

[PurpleGiant]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

Nope, doesn't bother me. You are buying/using a product from an American company and complaining that it tells the date and time the American way? *gasp*

And Sony should distribute all their products with only Japanese text and instructions?

[Andy8]

Originally Posted by PurpleGiant 

And Sony should distribute all their products with only Japanese text and instructions?

Exactly

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by torsoboy 

Nope, doesn't bother me. You are buying/using a product from an American company and complaining that it tells the date and time the American way? *gasp*

Yes ... Apple is an American company. But one that specifically markets it's products throughout the world. I'm not sure your argument is entirely valid. I feel it's a oversight on their part.

Am I to presume the prior version of .Mac webmail supported customized date/time formats?

[alligator]

I think this is a very sloppy coding oversight. We, in America need to think of our friends overseas.

[starman]

I never understood the European way anyway. You read from left to right, I'd like to know the MONTH before I know the DAY anyway. Seems more natural.

[TETENAL]

We don't use the slash in Germany for the date, but the order is actually correctly in DD/MM/YY.

[k squared]

Originally Posted by kennethmac2000 

Why do Apple do it? Don't they realise there is a whole world outside the US?

No-one in Europe uses - or even understands why anyone would want to use - the MM/DD/YYYY date format, yet Apple doesn't give us a choice.

Furthermore, we also don't understand what the point of the 12-hour clock with AM/PM indicators is when there's a perfectly good system known as the 24-hour clock which avoids duplicating hour numbers.

Again though, no option for this in .Mac webmail!

Have you sent Apple feedback?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by starman 

I never understood the European way anyway. You read from left to right, I'd like to know the MONTH before I know the DAY anyway. Seems more natural.

That argument makes complete sense if you turn it around, as well:

You read from left to right, I'd like to know the DAY before I know the MONTH anyway. Seems more natural.

Or alternatively:

You read from left to right, I'd like to know the YEAR before I know the MONTH anyway. Seems more natural.

Fact is, the two conventions which make sense are Year - Month - Day or Day - Month - Year. All else is just habit.


Edit: How about following your convention and writing time as MIN:SEC:HOUR as well?

[mac128k-1984]

Nope doesn't bother me

[starman]

Because knowing the month first allows me to know what time of year it is first.

"May 25", to me, says "Springtime" before I know the day of the month.

"25 May" means I have to read both words first. I can't see that as being natural for anyone.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by starman 

Because knowing the month first allows me to know what time of year it is first.

"May 25", to me, says "Springtime" before I know the day of the month.

"25 May" means I have to read both words first. I can't see that as being natural for anyone.

Ah but to me, 25th of October says to me "this week", while 18th says to me "last week". I'm far more likely to be working with dates within the next few weeks than months.

Come on, man, just admit to it being a habit and a personal preference derived from that. You simply cannot make a solid case for MM/DD/YY - there is no logical basis that makes it more sensible than other notations.

[starman]

Originally Posted by analogika 

Ah but to me, 25th of October says to me "this week", while 18th says to me "last week". I'm far more likely to be working with dates within the next few weeks than months.

Come on, man, just admit to it being a habit and a personal preference derived from that. You simply cannot make a solid case for MM/DD/YY - there is no logical basis that makes it more sensible than other notations.

Except I'm constantly looking at old emails, release dates. back in February when they announced the date for FF XII, if I saw "31/10/06" I'd have to think about it for a second because "31" could mean several different months, where "10/31/06" mean "October" right off the bat.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by starman 

I never understood the European way anyway. You read from left to right, I'd like to know the MONTH before I know the DAY anyway. Seems more natural.

That's not natural, it's culturally conditioned.

If anything could be considered natural, it would be either

YYYY/MM/DD

or

DD/MM/YYYY

-t

[G4ME]

Originally Posted by starman 

I'd have to think about it for a second because "31" could mean several different months,

WTF!?!

[Atheist]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck 

That's not natural, it's culturally conditioned.

If anything could be considered natural, it would be either

YYYY/MM/DD

or

DD/MM/YYYY

-t

I totally agree... it's conditioning. There's nothing "natural" about it. I moved from the States several years ago to the Caribbean. After a few months I was completely accustomed to reading dates with the day first. (And accustomed to driving on the left. Which I have to confess, even though I grew up driving on the right, driving on the left feels more "natural" to me...LOL)

[starman]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck 

That's not natural, it's culturally conditioned.

If anything could be considered natural, it would be either

YYYY/MM/DD

or

DD/MM/YYYY

-t

I could see YYYY/MM/DD working as well. DD/MM/YYYY just seems bass-ackwards.

[invisibleX]

Originally Posted by G4ME 

WTF!?!

Dammit, I've been missing 19 months of the year.

[yakkiebah]

Originally Posted by what_the_heck 

That's not natural, it's culturally conditioned.

If anything could be considered natural, it would be either

YYYY/MM/DD

or

DD/MM/YYYY

-t

Exactly. The first one(YYYY/MM/DD) is the most usefull when you're looking for something, like zooming in. The second one(DD/MM/YYYY) is the most usefull for everyday use, i don't need to check the year or month everyday, i only need to know the year once every year and the month once every month.

[kennethmac2000]

Originally Posted by starman 

Because knowing the month first allows me to know what time of year it is first.

"May 25", to me, says "Springtime" before I know the day of the month.

"25 May" means I have to read both words first. I can't see that as being natural for anyone.

I agree with you, but only if you take the logic of your argument to its conclusion.

My preference when working with dates is for them to be in ISO YYYY-MM-DD format, as is used in Sweden. This puts the larger units first (so is consistent with time), and is unambiguous (since no-one writes dates YYYY-DD-MM).

So, if you accept that the United States should get ahead of the rest of the world for once and, like Sweden, adopt YYYY-DD-MM, then I agree with you. Otherwise, I'm afraid no-one can seriously argue that writing the different components of the date out of order makes sense or is logical.

[kennethmac2000]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

We don't use the slash in Germany for the date, but the order is actually correctly in DD/MM/YY.

I guessed that the French and German versions would have dates in a more sensible order, but this is wrong too. The language setting should not dictate the date format.

As much as I detest the US date format, if I want to view .Mac webmail in French but have my dates in US format, why shouldn't I be able to?

[mitchell_pgh]

Is Apple a US company: Yes
Should Apple respect other formats: Yes

That being said, I don't complain that the European companies I deal with use the DD/MM/YYYY format.

[Oisín]

I'd have to think about it for a second because "31" could mean several different months

... unlike 10, which could only mean every single month in the year.

It is nothing more and nothing less than an Americanism. American English is more or less the only language (that I know of, at least) where it has become customary to say the month before the date, but to say the year last. Most other languages (and places, speaking of English) would find it very awkward and illogical.

Why is it more important to you to know what time of year you're talking about than to know what year (or indeed what century or millennium) you're talking about?

You need both date, month, and year in order to make a complete time point. Without either, it's incomplete. However, you can easily use any one of the three on its own, without reference to the other two, thus making the other two implicitly understood. No order of the three constituents of a time point is inherently more logical or makes inherently more sense than any other. The only reason that DD/MM/YYYY and YYYY/MM/DD are 'better' to use than any other format is that they comply to other standards we have devised when dealing with numbers, times, addresses, etc.: namely, that you go either from smallest unit to largest unit, or the other way around, depending on language, culture, etc.

[starman]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

... unlike 10, which could only mean every single month in the year.

It is nothing more and nothing less than an Americanism. American English is more or less the only language (that I know of, at least) where it has become customary to say the month before the date, but to say the year last. Most other languages (and places, speaking of English) would find it very awkward and illogical.

Why is it more important to you to know what time of year you're talking about than to know what year (or indeed what century or millennium) you're talking about?

You need both date, month, and year in order to make a complete time point. Without either, it's incomplete. However, you can easily use any one of the three on its own, without reference to the other two, thus making the other two implicitly understood. No order of the three constituents of a time point is inherently more logical or makes inherently more sense than any other. The only reason that DD/MM/YYYY and YYYY/MM/DD are 'better' to use than any other format is that they comply to other standards we have devised when dealing with numbers, times, addresses, etc.: namely, that you go either from smallest unit to largest unit, or the other way around, depending on language, culture, etc.

Dead wrong.

Explain to me why DD/MM/YYY is better than MM/DD/YYYY. Your own logic states you go from "largest to smallest", but I see MM/DD/YYYY as using the month/day "pair" as a unit.

Or is it an easy jab at Americans?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by starman 

Or is it an easy jab at Americans?

Well, yeah, that's always the main point.

Only in Amaraca (sic!)

-t

[Mastrap]

Originally Posted by starman 

Or is it an easy jab at Americans?

Oh please.

Everybody agrees is conditioning and personal choice. Don't make a political issue out of it.
month/day/year is illogical to me too, yet I live with it.

day/month/year makes sense as I normally know what month I am in and only need the exact date.

year/month/date makes sense as well.

month/day/year doesn't make sense, but it's easy enough to get used to.

[starman]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

Oh please.

Everybody agrees is conditioning and personal choice. Don't make a political issue out of it.

Oh, please.

I'm not the one who brought it up the first time.

[thirsty]

I find MM/DD/YY very annoying.

It is american habit or arrogance that they have to be different to the remainder of the world.

whats easier;
it's the 27th day of the 10th month of the year 2006

or

its the 10th month, the 27th day in the year 2006

the second one i've tried to say as logical as i thought but it never flows as easy as the top one.

In the end it doesn't matter leave the Amercans to there habits. But at least let the rest of the world enjoy ours.

dd/mm/yy

Smallest to largest.

day - 24hrs
Month - 720 or 744hrs
year - 9480hrs

[Love Calm Quiet]

I'm sure Apple wants to be a world power. I'm sure that date format *options* (perhaps following what's selected in your date pref pane) are in the offing.

[starman]

Originally Posted by thirsty 

I find MM/DD/YY very annoying.

It is american habit or arrogance that they have to be different to the remainder of the world.

God, you're right. Those silly other countries and their own idiosyncracies.

[RAILhead]

Nah, I'm not bothered at all.

[Oisín]

Dead wrong.

Oh, really? How am I "dead wrong"? Do you, for instance, write 125 for one hundred and fifty-two? No. You go from largest unit to smallest unit. That's how writing numbers works, and that's what the formats of YYYY/MM/DD and DD/MM/YYYY are based on: going from smallest to largest, or from largest to smallest.

Any other way of writing dates is bound to be a reflection of how dates are most commonly spoken, which is bound to be different from place to place or language to language. In many languages, for instance, one hundred and fifty-two would indeed be said as one hundred and two and fifty (as in older English as well). That doesn't mean you write it 125, though that would be more 'logical', going by how you say it out loud.

Explain to me why DD/MM/YYY is better than MM/DD/YYYY. Your own logic states you go from "largest to smallest", but I see MM/DD/YYYY as using the month/day "pair" as a unit.

But they're not a unit. They're two units. I could just as well say that I consider DD/MM a unit. Or that I consider MM/YYYY a unit. That doesn't make them a unit. It just makes them a unit in my head. Date is one unit (consisting of two numerical units), and month is one unit (same).

Or is it an easy jab at Americans?

How can an explanation of why I find the MM/DD/YYYY (which is also used in Canada, isn't it?) format illogical be an "easy jab" at Americans? I'm not in the habit of making "easy jabs" at anyone, whether by nationality, religion, creed, or anything else.

[starman]

Writing numbers != writing dates. You can't compare the two. How silly.

[Stratus Fear]

Originally Posted by thirsty 

its the 10th month, the 27th day in the year 2006

the second one i've tried to say as logical as i thought but it never flows as easy as the top one.

That's because we would say October 27th, 2006, and not how you said it. Saying the 27th of October is fine, but I don't notice too many people on this side of the pond saying it that way. But anyway, that's why we write MM/DD/YYYY, I think.

The way I think about it, I don't typically need to know the year, but the month is the "major" date and the day is the "minor" date, so I prefer MM/DD, and YYYY can honestly go on either side as YYYY/MM/DD or MM/DD/YYYY. I dealt with YYYY/MM/DD while I lived in Japan and it took me no time to get used to at all. The European way of writing the date, though, pisses me off, because the day and month reference is switched from the other two methods. If you ask me, it makes more sense to go from the larger unit (month -> day) and while technically year -> month -> day ought to make more sense, I can see it going either before or after, because for everyday use, the year isn't going to be so important as you know what year it is. Unless you just woke up from a coma or something.

[residentEvil]

27-OCT-2006 is the best way

get rid of all numbers: ##-AAA-####

[Stratus Fear]

Originally Posted by residentEvil 

27-OCT-2006 is the best way

get rid of all numbers: ##-AAA-####

That one is the default on my cell phone. Easily readable.

[starman]

Stratus makes a good point, one I should have made myself. Month = "major", day = "minor", year = superfluous. Whether year goes on the left or right is irrelevant.

Oisin, your analogy of writing 125 as 152 is flawed, it would be more direct if you had the version number 10.4.7 as 4.7.10 or 7.4.10. Now, if I were Steve Jobs, I'd say it was 10.4.7. Major.minor.rev. With dates, the CONTEXT of what you're talking about is important to know the year. For example, if I wanted to know what Dakar's birthday was, I'd want to know Month and Date. If I wanted to know when the Wii is coming out THIS YEAR, I'd want to know Month and Date. If I wanted to know when Hell is freezing over, the year would be important because it might not be for a LOOOONG time.

It's not American "arrogance", it a simple way of getting the most important information first, just like I said with reading left to right.

[residentEvil]

that is how i got use to the date from almost 2 decades of VMS use/programming. when i have to use those damn check things*, it is how i write the date. when i take notes, that is how i write the date. for everything, that is how i write the date.

*it is amazing how many people still use checks for paying bills. online banking is so nice.

[Mastrap]

Since when is the year superfluous? It certainly isn't for me.

[starman]

Originally Posted by Mastrap 

Since when is the year superfluous? It certainly isn't for me.

Because in certain contexts the year is irrelevant. If your birthday is "Jan. 4", who cares what the year is? If "the part is on Nov. 14th", who cares what the year is?

[Stratus Fear]

If you write YYYY for the year, it should also be immediately obvious which number is the year. That's why it personally doesn't matter to me which side of the date it goes on if the rest is already MM/DD.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by starman 

It's not American "arrogance", it a simple way of getting the most important information first.

In romanic languages the most important information comes first: casa blanca
In germanic languages however the most important information comes last: white house

English is a germanic language, so the month has to come after the day with the year last. Americans get to wrong!

[nonhuman]

I've made a number of web tools that have been used in global organizations. I always make sure that the dates are displayed in the order the users wants. It's not just an issue of convenience, it's a legitimate business concern.

It's not good if you try and schedule something for March 5, and the person you're trying to schedule it with thinks you meant May 3.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by TETENAL 

In romanic languages the most important information comes first: casa blanca
In germanic languages however the most important information comes last: white house

English is a germanic language, so the month has to come after the day with the year last. Americans get to wrong!

English is a germanic language with heavy romance (and other) influences. But I agree that the American date order doesn't make sense. At the very least, we should all agree that days < months < years, right? So DD/MM/YYYY is the logical way to write dates.

[starman]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

English is a germanic language with heavy romance (and other) influences. But I agree that the American date order doesn't make sense. At the very least, we should all agree that days < months < years, right? So DD/MM/YYYY is the logical way to write dates.

And yet 300 million people disagree.

[Space1999]

I don't understand what everyone is bitchin' about. Why not just make the change in the date & time system preferences?

[RevEvs]

I think its just down to the way people say things.

People in the UK would say "26th of October", people in the US "October 26".

I wonder if in the US they used to use DD/MM/YY years ago, as "American English" is just derived from British English. As its been changed over the years they probably changed the date format.