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bOOzo · Sep 20, 2003, 06:42 AM

Well, I can't make nib files, but if any one wants to make a controller out of my mockup, contact me and I can provide you with the graphics.

NetworkShadow · Sep 21, 2003, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
Since I like and use VLC, I thought I too should make some mockups. The problem I see with the current is that they would require a custom Metal window. It makes them slimmer, but I think it's important that it looks good with themes.

First I tried something completely new:

It's very slim, but the problems is that it would require a custom metal appearance and would look the same even with a theme applied. Also, the position slider is too short.

Secondly I tried evolving the current layout, with inspiration from the DVD player in Panther:

This one I think would work great. It's similar to the current VLC and it would be able to theme it, although all the buttons would still be plastic. It has the same functionality, except for the preference button which I find unnecessary.

Any thoughts?

Cool I like this one. VLC looks really bad if you've got a non-aqua theme installed, this should be good.

udecker · Sep 21, 2003, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by OwlBoy:
hmm, I dunno, going for something that would not just be an Apple rip-off would be cool too .

In reference to that last "frankenstien-like-mockup"

-Owl

Owl, it's less about being an Apple rip-off, and more about interface consistency. If system wide consistency with regards to audio and video presentation and control can be implemented, it's proper re-use, not ripping off. You shouldn't have to re-invent the wheel when there are already working examples of the functionality we're looking for.

Familiarity is just as important when it comes to using these widgets. Especially if you can't come up with something substantially better than what's already out there (with regards to the Apple widgets).

-uD

Zimphire · Sep 21, 2003, 08:54 PM

These two are the top so far IMHO

NetworkShadow · Sep 22, 2003, 02:34 AM

I think smaller the better, screen space should be for the video your playing, not the controller.

mikelauder · Sep 22, 2003, 05:09 AM

I think the second of the two above is probably the more usable. The first has the problem of the volume slider and the video slider being one above the other. IMHO this looks rather awkward and due to the length seems to give a very high priority to the volume.

I also like the idea of being able to resize the controller just like the iTunes one so that You get to see more info and get a better resolution on the video slider.

MIke Lauder

bOOzo · 12:16 PM

Seems like most people prefer the Frankenstein mockup by Synotic and udecker. I do too I think, so I made a refined mockup of it.

Type A

Type B

I prefer the Type A display, it goes very well with the shape of the window.
As someone said, it might be cool if it could be resized to only display the << > >> buttons and the volume slider.. But then I think that the best solution would be to add the vertical x-+ and have the + act as a resize button. Then we could skip the growbox.

darkcore · Sep 22, 2003, 02:48 PM

Wow, Type A looks great. That's my favorite mockup so far, all the controls flow really nicely.

Synotic · Sep 22, 2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
Seems like most people prefer the Frankenstein mockup by Synotic and udecker. I do too I think, so I made a refined mockup of it.

Type A

Type B

I prefer the Type A display, it goes very well with the shape of the window.
As someone said, it might be cool if it could be resized to only display the << > >> buttons and the volume slider.. But then I think that the best solution would be to add the vertical x-+ and have the + act as a resize button. Then we could skip the growbox.

Type B is looking pretty good. Only suggestion would be to normalize some of those margins. Like there's more space to the right of the status well and "prefs" button than to the left of the Rewind button. Since I haven't gotten any more info on the updated slider I shoot an e-mail to thedj and see if he can check out this thread.

Mediaman_12 · Sep 22, 2003, 05:49 PM

I think that the square "LCD" on version A fits better. It fits in the top right corner better and it's shape mirrors the shape of the rectangular buttons along the bottom.
On version B the round 'Forward' button next to the LCD on left is also has a different center line, and it makes it look uncomfortable on this side. there is also an issue with the 'squarenes' of the corner of the brushed window where it buts against the curve of the "LCD".

bOOzo · Sep 22, 2003, 05:59 PM

Good suggestion Synotic! I moved things around a little:

I also added a darker line to the bottom of the slide track which makes it look somewhat sunken.

Adam Betts · Sep 22, 2003, 10:59 PM

Type A is looking good. I like it

OwlBoy · Sep 22, 2003, 11:18 PM

Looking good.

I wish theDJ would say something about how this will be implemented, or when, or what one.........

Though I guess it is just me being a bit sad (selfish) that mine won't be used, sorry

-Owl

udecker · Sep 23, 2003, 12:53 AM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
Type A:

Type B:

Hey, both of these are looking great. I'm partial to Type B, but only because of the similarity to iTunes, and the rounded edges compliment the rounded buttons. When used in such a tight window though, the edges are a bit ... discordant.

Did we decide against allowing for the resize of the window? I can appreciate that with these mockups, there is no space left for the resize widget. However, to get better slider resolution, being able to stretch this thing wider may come in handy.

Also - we haven't heard much on actual implementability of these designs. From what I can tell, the slider control isn't a standard nib object that can just be popped in.

But great job on making the idea pretty, bOOzo. :-) Everything lines up as it should.

-uD

bOOzo · Sep 23, 2003, 04:45 AM

Glad you like udecker, it's your concept after all.

As I said, if it should be resizable, I think it should have the vertical x-+ and when you press the + it switches to a smaller size.

Should I make a new mockup with either vertical x-+ buttons or with a growbox?

The DJ · Sep 23, 2003, 11:59 AM

I'm really sorry I haven't been able to do anything with your suggestions yet people.

I took up some more responsibilities these last three weeks. Therefore i haven't had much time to work on VLC. The time i did have i spent on making the osx version work again after some low level changes to vlc and on updating some elements (implemented a repeat function, next to the loop and shuffle ones, added save playlist), and on making our support for subtitle files more sophisticated.

See also this: http://www.via.ecp.fr/via/ml/vlc/200309/msg00207.html
my call for more help on osx.

You have to see that even though it looks simple to update the interface, doing it right still requires quite some programming. Especially the minicontroller switch to a larger controller needs work which isn't easy to do. Also, the buttons and drag and drop behaviour is custom work, which simply takes some time.

udecker · Oct 26, 2003, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by The DJ:
I'm really sorry I haven't been able to do anything with your suggestions yet people.

I took up some more responsibilities these last three weeks. Therefore i haven't had much time to work on VLC.

Hey man - just curious how things have been going with the new UI implementation. Also - let me know if you have any needs for testers.

Cheers,
uD

The DJ · Oct 29, 2003, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by udecker:
Hey man - just curious how things have been going with the new UI implementation. Also - let me know if you have any needs for testers.

Cheers,
uD

No need for testers, just a need for developers

gdiddy · Oct 29, 2003, 10:16 AM

Wow! Looking nice! I'd have to go with the rounded Type B. Great work.

booboo · 07:02 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
Good suggestion Synotic! I moved things around a little:

I would like - for what it's worth - to see all the transport buttons grouped together, as they were with the other contender. It seems nonsensical to split them . . .

This would mean swapping the positions of the volume slider and the start/stop/end buttons . . .

Very rough - I'm no image editor . . .

Stradlater · Oct 29, 2003, 08:18 PM

Originally posted by booboo:
I would like - for what it's worth - to see all the transport buttons grouped together, as they were with the other contender. It seems nonsensical to split them . . .

This would mean swapping the positions of the volume slider and the start/stop/end buttons . . .

Yeah, I agree, the older layout was better...the navigation buttons should all be together

leeeo · Oct 30, 2003, 01:32 AM

call me impatient, but there hasnt been an actual post of a vlc theme in two forum pages, can someone post something to hold us off for a bit?

The DJ · Nov 17, 2003, 02:54 AM

Originally posted by leeeo:
call me impatient, but there hasnt been an actual post of a vlc theme in two forum pages, can someone post something to hold us off for a bit?

You can all rejoice

I'm working with bOOzo and he has provided me with his excellent artwork. The layout as proposed by booboo is now being build into VLC. i'm still having some problems with getting the sliders to work but i trust that by the end of the week it will work.

At the moment I'm at this point:
http://sidekick.student.utwente.nl/videolan/newvlc.jpg

somone else at videolan is working to create a VLC skin (which work on windows and linux) out of it.

BTW if anyone is wondering why the new release is taking so long, you can take a look at the Changelog here:
http://developers.videolan.org/cgi-b.../NEWS?rev=1.72
A lot of new things. Most will not be too exciting for our OSX userbase, but in general we consider it to be a great release.
(wondering wether to call it 0.7.0 instead of 0.6.3)

DJ

Mediaman_12 · 06:22 AM

Exelent looking. can't wait.

One quastion. When I play VCD's or mpg's in the current version the slider for 'playhead position' does very little (it moves along to the end when the movie is fist opened. but then it just sit's there making it impossible to 'scrub' to a certain position in the movie. Is this fixed in this relese?

RayEarth · Nov 17, 2003, 08:32 PM

Wow....this is about 300% better than the old, bloated, GUI.

Can't wait!

OwlBoy · Nov 17, 2003, 08:41 PM

Happy to see this is being implemented finally.

-Owl

akuma-x · Nov 17, 2003, 09:04 PM

Wow! Looks great.
Any idea how long it will be before we get to play w/ this?
Keep up the good work.

NetworkShadow · Nov 17, 2003, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by The DJ:
You can all rejoice
I'm working with bOOzo and he has provided me with his excellent artwork. The layout as proposed by booboo is now being build into VLC. i'm still having some problems with getting the sliders to work but i trust that by the end of the week it will work.

At the moment I'm at this point:
http://sidekick.student.utwente.nl/videolan/newvlc.jpg

somone else at videolan is working to create a VLC skin (which work on windows and linux) out of it.

BTW if anyone is wondering why the new release is taking so long, you can take a look at the Changelog here:
http://developers.videolan.org/cgi-b.../NEWS?rev=1.72
A lot of new things. Most will not be too exciting for our OSX userbase, but in general we consider it to be a great release.
(wondering wether to call it 0.7.0 instead of 0.6.3)

DJ

Wow just might get me using VLC as my standard DivX player.

The DJ · Nov 28, 2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Mediaman_12:
Exelent looking. can't wait.

One quastion. When I play VCD's or mpg's in the current version the slider for 'playhead position' does very little (it moves along to the end when the movie is fist opened. but then it just sit's there making it impossible to 'scrub' to a certain position in the movie. Is this fixed in this relese?

I believe this is fixed. This happened in files where the audio and video were at different locations in the file.

The DJ · Nov 28, 2003, 12:01 PM

A test version is now available, though i haven't completely fixed the interface yet.
I've had no time at all the past 2 weeks...

http://www.videolan.org/pub/testing/....7.0-test1.dmg

remember this is a test version. a lot of changes have been made, which also means a lot of stuff is broken: http://developers.videolan.org/vlc/NEWS

There are forums (http://forum.videolan.org) available now as well. hopefully more people will use those. The mailinglist is always a bit of a step for people to take it seems.

udecker · Nov 28, 2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by booboo:
I would like - for what it's worth - to see all the transport buttons grouped together, as they were with the other contender. It seems nonsensical to split them . . .

This would mean swapping the positions of the volume slider and the start/stop/end buttons . . .

Very rough - I'm no image editor . . .

The nonsensicalness was actually a usability / visibility concern. We want to keep the volume controls under the rew/play/ff buttons to highlight their use (as is implemented in iTunes) and to separate their functionality from "next, back and stop".

By putting the volume slider underneath the status window, you have disrupted the flow.

Also - the back, stop, forward buttons are the same size and shape of the list and prefs buttons, and they should stay together.

I again submit the other design,

Also - The DJ, good job on working through the problems - the implementation is looking great. I'm glad to have been part of the process.

bOOzo · Nov 28, 2003, 03:17 PM

Maybe we should do a separate poll on how the interface should be arranged? It's very simple to change it.

I've sent an email to The DJ with some rearrangement of the buttons, because they are too close together etc. I've also made a new icon for the Playlist because when I made that I had a drawer in mind..

And I think someone should make a sweet icon to go with the new interface! Anyone up for the challenge?

The DJ · Nov 28, 2003, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by udecker:
The nonsensicalness was actually a usability / visibility concern. We want to keep the volume controls under the rew/play/ff buttons to highlight their use (as is implemented in iTunes) and to separate their functionality from "next, back and stop".

By putting the volume slider underneath the status window, you have disrupted the flow.

Also - the back, stop, forward buttons are the same size and shape of the list and prefs buttons, and they should stay together.

I again submit the other design,

Also - The DJ, good job on working through the problems - the implementation is looking great. I'm glad to have been part of the process.

i disagree about the first thing. I think things that control the 'input' should be grouped together and the volume is no part of that. You may think volume is importent, but in my eyes it's the least important control since i use it that much that i always use the key shortcuts.

And i don't care about how iTunes does it. We are a video player, not an mp3 player

Everyone seems to like this and it looks sane. that's the only thing that matters.

i hope i can get all of the stuff fixed before a 0.7.0 final release. maybe december will bring me some time for vlc again, and then maybe we can bring you guys a christmas present.

udecker · Nov 28, 2003, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by The DJ:
And i don't care about how iTunes does it. We are a video player, not an mp3 player
Everyone seems to like this and it looks sane. that's the only thing that matters.

No need to get snippy!

I understand that interface design is quite subjective. However, consistency is good. If you want to differentiate from iTunes because the media is different, I think that's fine - but don't use the same style controls separated by volume control. By using the horizontal for the volume (for greater resolution, I believe) you're stuck with an inelegant compromise with similar styles separated.

This is all a matter of taste - I never use the fwd/back/stop features of the toolbar. People who use them frequently may find them better aligned under the other navigation buttons, and that makes perfect sense. I would recommend using icons (the ones bOOzo has for the drawer and playlist) on the right hand side, since they are separated. I would make them a different style entirely than the navigation buttons. (since they really are)

I'm relieved that bOOzo is taking care of a lot of it - he does good work. And The DJ, don't think I don't appreciate the amount of work you're putting into this - I am sure it's going to look (and work) wonderfully.

Cheers
-uD

NetworkShadow · Nov 29, 2003, 12:35 AM

It looks awfull when running a non-aqua theme, you should hard code the metal texture to fix that like iTunes. Otherwise it looks like it could be really cool

How hard would it be to do an iTunes like playlist setup that's built into the window? It would be really cool if it was all in one...

bOOzo · Nov 29, 2003, 06:29 AM

If you have xcode installed, it's very easy to edit the nib file and move the volume slider etc.

I think it's good that it uses the Extras.rsrc, it might look horrible with some themes, but I'm sure a theme like GUiPod looks great with it. And it's fairly easy to make a replacement set of buttons if it comes to that.

cloudaj · Nov 29, 2003, 12:53 PM

heres mine after editing and with AA theme installed:

looks great with that theme IMHO.

mrtew · Nov 29, 2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by cloudaj:
heres mine after editing and with AA theme installed:

looks great with that theme IMHO.

WOW! How the heck did you do that? When is this going to be released! I can't wait for VLC to look right with themes! Then I can delete the VLC them from Titanium7! Is this going to be released soon?

NetworkShadow · Nov 29, 2003, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
If you have xcode installed, it's very easy to edit the nib file and move the volume slider etc.

I think it's good that it uses the Extras.rsrc, it might look horrible with some themes, but I'm sure a theme like GUiPod looks great with it. And it's fairly easy to make a replacement set of buttons if it comes to that.

Well I'd hate to see it with Omega... The dark theme I'm working on looks really bad with it too.
I don't think you should assume that people will be using xcode to update it to look right, or that they will be using themes that work with it. It should look good with any theme to be a good interface....

bOOzo · Nov 29, 2003, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
Well I'd hate to see it with Omega... The dark theme I'm working on looks really bad with it too.
I don't think you should assume that people will be using xcode to update it to look right, or that they will be using themes that work with it. It should look good with any theme to be a good interface....

You only need xcode to move around the buttons. Replacing the graphics is just pic files which could easily be included in a guiKit. A hardcoded brushed background is stupid. The only way to make it look good with any theme would be to use the Extras.rsrc, but then the original appearance would be very disappointing.

cloudaj · Nov 29, 2003, 05:41 PM

just in case anyone tries this who isnt familiar with the dev tools, bOOzo means Interface Builder, not xcode

NetworkShadow · 06:15 PM

Originally posted by bOOzo:
You only need xcode to move around the buttons. Replacing the graphics is just pic files which could easily be included in a guiKit. A hardcoded brushed background is stupid. The only way to make it look good with any theme would be to use the Extras.rsrc, but then the original appearance would be very disappointing.

As easy as it may be to replace pic files, it should be good looking out of the package with anything that may be running... That's all I'm saying. I know I don't want to take the time to replace pic files every time I change my theme or download a new version of VLC.
Embedding the brushed metal texture may be stupid, but so is the alternative from how I see it. The QuickTime interface my not look anything like the theme I'm running but at least it looks good and doesn't need to be hacked to have a complete look with the theme that I'm running.

Unedited VLC interace with the theme I'm helping with:

(No you can't see the widgets yet)
And no I have no clue what's up with that "text" area that's like transparent.

cloudaj · Nov 29, 2003, 06:20 PM

i fixed that on mine, select that area and click show info, hit background color from attributes pane, click the magnifying glass and hit inside the regular-color part, and you are done.

Though I dont know why it was clear in the first place...

ender2002 · Nov 29, 2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by cloudaj:
i fixed that on mine, select that area and click show info, hit background color from attributes pane, click the magnifying glass and hit inside the regular-color part, and you are done.

Though I dont know why it was clear in the first place...

everytime i click it goes to the finder, not allowing me to select it.

Sage · Nov 29, 2003, 06:54 PM

Originally posted by NetworkShadow:
[...]Unedited VLC interace with the theme I'm helping with:

(No you can't see the widgets yet)

Let me guess... Omega or the TuXedo update, correct?

cloudaj · Nov 29, 2003, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by ender2002:
everytime i click it goes to the finder, not allowing me to select it.

you did this in Interface Builder, correct? just making sure

You hold control and click the vlc icon, select show package contents, double click contents folder, go to resources, then english.lprog, then open mainmenu.nib.

ok, you click the area that says "text". There should be an outline which denotes that it was selected; look for little blue circles on the corners of the box and in the middle of the horizontal and vertical lines. Go to Tools menu, and click show info. Go to the attributes drop down box, and click the box that says background color. Theres a magnifying glass towards the top, click it. Hover it over the middle section of the colored section, but you should stay outside of the "text" box. click once. The new color should be applied. Now save from file menu, and quit. Should be set.

If its still not working i suppose i could upload my nib file if there werent any objections from the developer.

NetworkShadow · Nov 29, 2003, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by Sage:
Let me guess... Omega or the TuXedo update, correct?

I wish I was testing Omega, and it's not TuXedo that's for sure. You'll see soon enough when it's done.

So what's everyone's thoughts on it being theme compatible?

cloudaj · Nov 29, 2003, 07:37 PM

I gotta disagree with you there. Its not the responsibility of the application developers to make sure their applications look great with every theme. I think the most you can ask for is an application with an easily mod-ible interface, and thats being provided right here. Perhaps if theming really "took over", or there was a particularly dominant theme, but right now theme users are still in a niche crowd, and I dont see (or think that) developers should have to go out on a limb for those that use themes. hopefully thats semi-coherent

Though I dont think that with the theme you are using, VLC would look too bad, if it werent for the clear window. And again, i dont know whats up with that

NetworkShadow · Nov 29, 2003, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by cloudaj:
I gotta disagree with you there. Its not the responsibility of the application developers to make sure their applications look great with every theme. I think the most you can ask for is an application with an easily mod-ible interface, and thats being provided right here. Perhaps if theming really "took over", or there was a particularly dominant theme, but right now theme users are still in a niche crowd, and I dont see (or think that) developers should have to go out on a limb for those that use themes. hopefully thats semi-coherent

Though I dont think that with the theme you are using, VLC would look too bad, if it werent for the clear window. And again, i dont know whats up with that

You are correct about the fact that it shouldn't be up to the developers to make it theme complaint. It would be really nice though it if were theme complaint is what I'm saying. As a multimedia application like QuickTime it may be good for it to have it's own independent interface though. It's by all means up to the developers, but if I were developing an application I'd want it to look right no matter what the system interface was.

cloudaj · Nov 29, 2003, 08:10 PM

personally, I'd rather the theme developer create a skin or be able to edit it myself than to lock me in with brushed metal. That is something that really bugs me (itunes, quicktime for instance), so i personally like it this way.

You might be better off directing users to exclude certain apps...though then the menus go back to regular style...hmm...Perhaps you could work with unsanity on that one.